JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Mentor Questions Forum Online Networking/Hurt feelings or buisiness

Hi,

I started to put this question in the "Networking Tips" forum by Mike, but I thought it might need it's own space.

I started working with musicicans and writers on line in the past year. So far, I really love being able to branch out by means of the internet. Recently, I started working in an even newer area for me, composing lyrics to tracks that musicicans have on sites like Soundclick, and I have really enjoyed that too.

Recently, I wrote a song to a beautiful piece of music and some questions have come from the aftermath of that. I know that this musician uses a license in common agreement, so when I contacted them about the song, the musician listened, said I wrote some good lyrics and they liked my voice, and that I didn't have to ask I could use any of the music there to write to. The person said if I ever sold the song they would get part of the proceeds, which I agree with and understand.

I believe there were 3 emails exchanged. Then I got this email:

Dear Ms Allen,

Just to let you know that I will not be responding to further emails as I don't wish wish to participate in musical collaboration outside of my usual forum. Please do not reply to this email and please do not send further. The Copyright guidelines are attached to my files in Soundclick.

Here are my questions on Online Networking, internet tracks and writing.

1) Is there certain protocall that is used in these instances? Have I broken some rule I don't know about? I did not ask for any colaboration, I wrote all the lyrics and recorded vocals and backups to the song. I only contacted the owner out of respect, as that is what I assumed you were supposed to do. I still feel that I should contact and inform musicians if I do something with their music. I know I would want to be aware of someone using mine.

2) It seems that as long as there is a common license, you can write to anyones music and post it and do anything except commercial use. If you pitch the song, isn't that commercial use?

3) According to this email, it sounds as if no other personal contact is ever wanted. How would this person expect to find out if I sold the song to some star and made a million dollars,lol? Am I supposed to send out telepathic waves?

4) Is this just a usual business blanket email, or should my feelings have gotten hurt (they did a little but I am too soft anyway). I know that I said or did nothing that I thought was unprofessional at all, so I really don't feel at fault and think it is the way they handle their business, but does anyone know that this is the case?

I am a little hesitant now about it. I know that each case is probably going to be different, but how do I know that in advance, or do I just keep taking the chance if I find music I love? I don't want you to think that I am too big of a jelly roll, I have written a long time and have my share of rejection letters in the closet lol, so I know how to accept that and have not had my desire to proceed squashed, but I guess I would like some of your more experienced professional advice regarding a new endeavor I wanted to try.

Thanks in advance for any helful insight you can give me,

Letha

Well, Letha, I'm confused. Were there copyright guidelines attached? What are they? I am somewhat familiar with "common license" but that does not, as far as I understand, preclude copyright, it just gives license. Now, it is possible the composer was telling you not to continue asking about your use of his or her work, just use it and follow the guidelines. In that case, there would be nothing to worry about. However I'm not sure what they meant by "outside of my usual forum." Anyway, as I said, I didn't read their "copyright guidelines" and I am not a lawyer.

So, if you could paste the copyright guidelines here, we might have a better idea.

Thanks,
Mike

Letha,

(I wrote this and then noticed you posted it in the mentor forum -- I am not a mentor, so don't take what I have to say as legal advice)

I don't know who it is, but I suspect that I have written lyrics to that person's backing also (LOL!). I would say that the email you got is sort of bizarre and I wouldn't take it personally. Most people are thrilled that you are writing lyrics to their tunes. If I wrote a tune to someone's backing track, I'd consider it a co-write. If they emailed me and told me that I couldn't use their backing in a commercial endeavor, I would figure out the chord progression and play it on my guitar or enter it into BIAB.

Songs are melody and lyrics. Chord progressions are not copyrighted. Therefore, if this person doesn't want you using their backing -- they are missing out. Unless there is an actual melody in the backing that you copied, it can't be a big deal.

I have 5 or 6 songs on my RPM where the backing tracks came from Rockit! and I wrote lyrics to them. However, I have completely re-produced the backings in BIAB with different chords, feel and changes in melody (not on purpose really). Therefore if you heard Rockit!'s original backing and compared it to my tune, you might hear some similarities, but not enough to trigger copyright problems (in my opinion). However, I continue to credit Rockit! as the co-author, because it seemed to be the right thing to do. If he came back and wrote me that email above, I would remove him from the credits and feel good about my moral (and hopefully legal position). In your case, you will have to re-create the backing yourself or get someone (Clayvile, myself, Sub...) to help you with that.

Just a couple of thoughts and hopefully someone with more experience will jump in.

Sorry this has happened, I just can't believe that someone would not want their work to grow beyond the confines of a guitar forum!

Kevin

Here is what the license says,

You are free:
to Share — to copy, distribute and transmit the work to Remix — to adapt

Well, I had a situation like this crop up last year. A musican contacted me to say he'd written music for lyrics I had posted on a songwriting board for review.

On the one hand, I appreciated him contacting me and letting me know he'd written music for my words.

On the other hand, I felt that taking any part of my creation and using it for any purpose, without contacting me and asking my permission, was wrong.

I had planned to write my own music, but since I liked what he did I wrote to say that I would agree to signing my co-writing agreement (50-50).

He wrote back to say he'd only used my words as an "exercise" to inspire music and would be rewriting the words... and didn't want to sign a co-write.

Again, I appreciated him contacting me, but I felt my rights had been violated.

I stopped posting lyrics on public boards.

--- so at the end of this story, I have to say that I consider at least impolite and at the most an infringement of copyright, to use anyone's music or anyone's words, without their permission.

--- the idea that you can use someone's melody, and then write lyrics / create a recording and NOT be collaborating or co-writing is incorrect.

--- if the person has written you and asked for no further contact, be advised that you *cannot* use their melody in your song.

So if you find music you love, that has no lyrics already, the correct procedure would be to contact that writer, with some details of your credits, and ask them if they would be interested in a co-write. If so, put it in writing. If not - with respect - move on.

JMHO

Kevin,

He did not say he did not want me to use it. He had already told me he was impressed with both my lyrics and vocals and liked the song. I believe that the email just means "Use my music, try to sell them but I get some money if you do, but don't contact me personally." I am fine with that I guess, but what if something really ever came from the song?

I had no great desire to have a personal relationship with him lol, I just respect my fellow musicians enough to keep them informed. I would want to be.

You have worked with me, did you feel uncomfortable talking to me personally?

Letha

Hello everybody,

MAB here. I am not familiar with this particular thread or protocal. But I think if you enter into ANY songwriting situation without contacting that person first, and having at least a few e-mails to make sure you are on the same page, you are asking for trouble or hurt feelings.
Songs are like our children, and even people with the best of intenetions might be offended or change their mind if they don't feel they were properly deferred to or kept in the loop, or, they just might not like the music or lyrics. Talking together first, is the answer to that. And having an open mind and being able to just drop it all if they don't see things the way you do.
In Nashville, we suggest you meet with people, have coffee, have lengthy discussions before you start trying to write. In music row writing sessions even among friends, the first hour is usually spent just talking and catching up. What have they been doing? What is going on in their lives? What are their interests?
Finding common ground or tender spots up front alleviate most of these problems afterward. and at the end of the day you don't worry about it and write more songs. That is precisely why your primary job is to write a LOT of songs with a LOT of people.

MAB

Hi Hummingbird,

I think the case might be a little different here. This person has a site with hundreds of musical creations and backtracks, and that is what the songs seem to be there for. Some are common, or shared license, some are pay.

I guess he may have had to have an email like that with many many people using his tracks, maybe too many try to contact him and he had to stop them. If that is the case, I could understand I guess. Just don't want to think I am the only person he ever sent the email to lol.

Came back to add this Hummingbird. I have the greatest respect for all musicians I work with. I actually have their interest foremost in my mind with every song I have ever worked on. I don't believe that I have ever imposed or stepped on anyone, and in this case, that is what made me contact him and try to make sure he was ok with it. If not, it would have gone in the garbage. I am very confident that I treat people right.


Thanks for helping bounce this off,

Letha

PS:
Even though they gave you permission, you can see how unpredictable people are at times. That is the main reason I suggest people dont' try writing lyrics or music to EXISTING pieces. Even if they say it is alright, it usually isn't. I think you just take this as a lesson learned.

MAB

I think some are misunderstanding. I came upon this music because it was created for writers and musicians to use in anyway that they want. This piece I used has at least 4 or 5 different versions with just guitar leads on it posted all over soundclick. The creator wants people to use his backings.

I wasn't going to post the response in here I got when I contacted him, but I decided I would. Here is the musicians first contact with me.

Dear Ms Allen
Your song and vocals sound very good - I was impressed!

I made the backing and played the guitar lead,
Feel free to use my backing for non - non commercial purposes - if you ever sell the song I would expect a share of the proceeds. All my backing tracks (they list me as the author in the info on soundclick ) are available to you to use., you don't need to ask my permission as they have the creative commons licence in general.

Thanks for letting me know about your song.

Hummingbird: Just a few points of info from these forums where Letha found this backing track.

-- Users post rhythm tracks and chord progression with stated purpose of having other people use these tracks to add guitar parts (and other instrument parts) over. They are placed in a section called "Jam Zone".

-- These are rhythm tracks that are mostly I-IV-V (but can have other changes in there). But they do not have any melody associated with them (except what you can hear in your head).

-- Other folks beside myself (and Letha) have written lyrics to posted backing tracks and then recorded them with vocals and posted them at that site and other places. It is not a normal practice for lyricsts and singers to get involved, but it does happen (most of the forum members are mainly guitar players and don't sing that much).

In general, your guidelines about grabbing other people's work and adding to it make sense. However, the sole purpose of the "JamZone" is to post tracks and let others go wild. These rhythm tracks are mostly not "copyrightable" except the actual sound recording itself. The only melody being created (in most cases) is the melody that Letha or myself create when listening to these jam tracks. Giving these jam track folks co-writing credit makes sense if you use their sound recording. If you recreate the backing yourself, then you are just copying a chord progression. I still give the jam track creators credit because I want to -- not because I am either morally or legally bound to (OK, my moral sense tells me it is the right thing to do).

Kevin

Yea Kevin,

See what you got me into!!!!!!!

lol lol lol

Letha,

Last year I was in San Diego California doing a workshop. A 16 year old girl played a song with some really good sounding tracks with her singing lyrics live. I asked her why she had not recorded them, and she said they were part of a songwriters CD with existing tracks. I thought that was strange, but her lyrics were pretty mediocre so I figured that was the best thing for them.
Two days later I was in Salt Lake City, Utah. A girl there did a song to the EXACT same tracks with her own lyrics. There are people out there who are marketing their tracks as CD's for songwriting excercises. That is fine as an excercise. Until people start pitching them.
Publishers, and pluggers as well as writers are in a death throes with "inside cuts". They are having trouble even getting appointments with record companies to even play songs. The LAST thing a bunch of outside songwriters need to do is get some of these existing tracks, write songs to them and then try to pitch them. I can assure you, that is DEATH to a songwriter.
And to those of us who do this for a living, and fight and scrape to try and constantly churn out material and work within the rules, it comes off as lazy, out of touch and downright insulting. People are wanting access to the markets we have sacrificed our livilyhoods and security to be a part of and people want to take a very lazy way out and not even want to participate the way we have. Sorry, but that just doesn't get it on any playing field.
Writers can always do whatever they want to. They can write whatever, however, wherever, whenever they want to. But if they
want to try and cut in line, without bringing the same efforts we all have to, it will be a very tough row to hoe.
Like everything in music, you always have to be aware of perceptions among the people that you often need to get your music out among the masses. Of course, some people are not interested in other's opinions, so this would not apply to them.

MAB

Well darn it all,

I have played my own instruments for years, (more than I want to say), but here I thought I found a way to have more accomplished musicians and join together to create.

This is the about the fourth or fifth song I have tried like this, and this is the first time I have become unsure if it is a way that I want to go. The other track owners are such a pleasure and have been easy to understand. Maybe it is just a personality thing? How do I know, maybe it is really just for guitar players to jam with and not a female writer trying to come in there.

Marc: I think that while the info you just gave doesn't really apply "exactly" in this situation, it does makes sense in a general case. In other words, if you are going to do a co-write -- make sure all the co-writers are on the same page. ... And how are you going to do that in Letha's case?

Kevin

Hi Marc,

By the way, nice to meet you and thank you for taking this time with me.

Ok,

First, let me tell you that I am a very reserved, humble woman and musician. I have played and sung in bands for over 35 years, I keep using that number even though it is higher lol.

These are not canned tracks, at least when I started this, I thought they were musicians writing their own melodies and music, but just couldn't write lyrics. I could be wrong as these original backings are new to me.

I think it is just as hard to create lyrics around someone elses original music as it is to put music to our own lyrics. I usually write my lyrics and music together, sitting with my guitar or whatever instrument I use.

I am not trying to cut in line in front of you or anyone else. I am just a songwriter singer who can't stop creating, and I will not let anyone or anything stop that till I die. I may never get a cut, I may never sell a song, but I will continue what I have been doing all my life, graciously and persistantly, till I either do or take my last breath. It is part of me.

I don't care how many mistakes or rejections I get, I have no choice.

I did nothing wrong, the original tracks were created, just as I create melodies and music, they are publicly and legally offered for use, and I proceeded. Only I used vocals instead of an instrument. Maybe that is not as acceptable, but yes, I tried something new, and I am not sorry about doing it.

Maybe his wife doesn't like female contact?? lol it could be anything.

Ok, Marc, I am sorry I got to venting, cause I really do appreciate your opinions.

Letha

Letha: I think you can find some real good co-writers and musicians at that site -- I think this is just an isolated personality thing. I am going to keep doing it, because it really opens up the possibilities of writing to me (broadens my musical horizons a little).

Of course, now that I am on the road to creating my own backing tracks via the software I have, then the need is lessened. However, sometimes I am going to hear a brilliant backing from Clayville or "Rockit!" that is going to cry out for lyrics -- and I'm going to do it.

Kevin

Thanks Kevin,

I don't know. That is actually why I decided to make my vulnerability to the situation public. I usually don't, and thought about just making the decision that it is more trouble than it is worth. I had someone close to me tell me that they did not like the new music I was doing with tracks as much as my music, because it had no soul like the melodies I write do. He said that it was cold and canned. I just know that I am not accomplished enough to get the sound I want, can't pay for it, and tried something new. Not sorry I tried something new, just sorry for the controversy.

I don't like that controversy too much, so I think I may just bow out unless someone specifically creates a track and asks me to do something with it. I hate to trash the song I wrote, but I can do a different version of it, just my style I guess.

Thanks alot for your support and feedback,

Letha

I really do thank you all, Mike, Marc and Hummingbird for your time and input.

I apologize if I got a little too passionate in my responses to anyone.


Letha

Hey, if you want "cold and canned", I can probably supply that with BIAB (LOL!).

"I had someone close to me tell me that they did not like the new music I was doing with tracks as much as my music, because it had no soul like the melodies I write do."

Maybe so, but didn't you feel that one recent song was the best "love song" lyrics that you had ever written? Didn't other JPF'ers get a kick out of the other song you did with someone else's backing? To me, you sounded pretty excited about those pieces. Don't let other folks' expectations make you conform in a way that is restrictive. That person will come around, it is just too "new" to their ears coming from you!

Kevin

Yes,

I thought it was the best love song I had ever written, lol. My friend got a good laugh when I called him up and let him listen. He said, " Well, I just don't love it, it is not the same since you started using other peoples music. I didn't say it isn't good, I just don't love it as much." So I guess it wasn't the greatest love song I ever wrote lol.

It does expand your creativity though, bringing you into other progressions than what you are used to must be a growing experience. Maybe it could be useful just as songwriting excercise,as Marc said.

Letha,

Feel free to vent with me all you want to. I don't have a dog in this hunt, just sharing you the prevailing feelings of the industry. It may not be fair, but that is what it is. Some times I am trying to get clients of mine appointments with writers, publishers, etc. and those are one of the things they complain about.
There are things you can do to avoid it. But doing the existing tracks thing never leads to any good in my opinion. It forces everybody to write into a box and I don't see that as a good idea, too confining. The same with existing lyrics. 90% of what is written here is written on the spot and part of what makes it works is the passion of the moment.
And you might be right about personal pedelictions. There are any number of reasons. But if he/she are offering tracks to just about anyone, it seems to me the likly hood of that being duplicated are pretty good.
Again, all of this is suppostion on my part. I don't know the person. I just believe it is best to go from scratch and with a person you have a relationship with. That would avoid a lot of these problems.

MAB

Thank you Marc,

I am not a venter at all usually. I find comfort in knowing how many aspiring songwriters and musicians there are in here. Also I have a great appreciation for the more advanced and successful, willing to share their experiences, wisdom, and even discuss failures.

I do believe I have come back to the realization that if I create and record my songs all myself, musically, and lyrically, that I have only myself to please and deal with, and I am easy to deal with, lol. It may not sound as polished and professional, but I can still convey a message to the best of my ability and it will be mine without strings and I can afford my own playing and singing, lol.

Thank you again Marc,

Truly appreciate it

Letha

Letha, sorry if I misunderstood the situation. It wasn't clear to me that the tracks were made available for the use of 'collaborators'.

I have, in past, belonged to a couple of different 'collaborating' websites, and even an internet band. We worked on each other's projects and provided tracks for each others songs. I stopped doing this when I realized *I had nothing in writing* from those people. Therefore - assuming what I was doing was commercially viable, I was going to run into legal issues at some point. During the time that I did this, it was fun, and a great exercise in collaboration. But now I am writing more seriously to pitch to the market, I only co-write with professionally-oriented people I've connected with (as Marc describes), after we've signed a co-writing agreement.

The idea that you can use this fellow's track and then 'pay him something' if it goes somewhere, is, IMHO flawed. First of all, there is nothing in writing (altho the law would say you each own equal shares)... and you have no contact information. How can you pitch a song that is co-written with someone else without their knowledge? You can NOT sign an agreement with a publisher saying you own the song & have the right to sign that agreement - unless you have a power of attorney from your co-writer(s). Otherwise, you need the co-writer to sign too. And, as Marc pointed out, you have absolutely no idea how many other people have used that resource to create other versions of the song. I am not a lawyer, but I think it might be possible that each one of those people "owns" part of the songs created with that resource.

I think Marc gives excellent advice. I'm sure you are talented - all you have to do is connect with like-minded people, and collaborate with them, signing co-writing agreements. In other words, write something new with co-writers you click with.

Hope that makes sense,
warmly
Hummingbird

Hate to see you give up a potentially "different" creative path because of one email, but maybe a different approach would be better for you (and Marc and Hummingbird have pointed out some potential issues with these type of "co-writes").

Don't feel like you are the only one that has trouble fitting in or breaking in over there. You are a new member and all new members do have to prove themselves a little. I've been involved in FenderForum.com and LesPaulForum.com since 2006 or so and I still feel like an outsider. In fact picture the little annoying brother who wants to go along with his older brother and his friends. The older brother says NO!, but the Mom leans out the window and says "Oh, take Johnny along, he won't be any trouble". I feel like Johnny sometimes (LOL!).

Your songs are great when they are all "you" and they are great when you build on others' stuff or when you co-write. Just enjoy yourself.

Kevin

Letha,

It says:

You are free:
to Share — to copy, distribute and transmit the work to Remix — to adapt

I'm not a lawyer, but it says nothing about commercial use. I'm sure this is already happening, where people are offering such work for paid download on their sites, but I would be careful in doing that (I'm not saying you, Letha, are doing that, but am concerned about folks in general doing it.)

Creative Common and Common License backtracks are fine for experimenting. So is Band in a Box. You can always use the chords, tempo, and groove you get from such tools, but I would suggest against using them for demos. Work a song up with them, then use that as a work demo, a demo that you use to get the feel for a song before paying for a full demo. I think, used like this, they are a good way to filter out songs before you invest money in them.

All the Best,
Mike

Umm... just thought I'd chime in here even though I'm new and ya'll don't really know me or have a sense of who am I personally or musically ('cept you Kev!)...

I think, perhaps, that what you have here is a misunderstanding and an incomplete reading of the situation. As Kevin points out (and if I'm reading between the lines correctly myself) the backing tracks and instrumental pieces that Letha has become inspired by were created by (and in a sense, very much for...) the members of a small, relatively private community of online guitarist jammers for "their" own enjoyement and recreation. I mean: heck it's a bunch of guitarists laying down four minute solos afterall!

As he says too, once a backing track "goes out into the world", especially via the intermediary vehicle of Soundclick hosting, the backings are for the most part available to anyone that finds them. Minor caveats: one must be a member of Soundclick to download them, and one must be a member of the guitar jam site(s) to be notified of their availability. Most of the members of the communities where I participate use a creative commons license for the BTs, not so much to protect their work but to formally grant permission to anyone to do with them what they will.

I mean no disrespect and intend nothing other than to relate what it sometimes feels like on my end, from the other side, but when someone from outside the original community of my work/playing contacts me with a desire to do something, my hard-earned experience has often lead me to be wary. When I post a BT in that community I'm explicitly inviting other guitarists in it to lay something down on top of the BT. I'm not, really, putting up a "Looking for collaborators" notice all over the web. I'm very much paying them back for all the tracks they've let me play over, because I'm one of the subset that can actually create them.

That said, I and most others generally appreciate being contacted when someone wants to do something different -- but in my experience it can often be a Great Unknown, since you don't really know the person making contact (in the way that you "know" members of your own community), you don't know how much involvement from you that they might be seeking, how they might respond to your advice or counsel, or even how technically skilled they might be at protecting the quality of what you've done already as the track evolves through their own work. In my experience these are not non-issues, and my answer or response to an inquiry on any given day, though it might seem whimsical or terse to someone that doesn't "know" me, depends much on my mood at that moment (and theirs), my reaction to any draft that's included in the request, how much time I'm willing to devote to the work, the correspondence, the actual collaboration, etc. -- all that gets weighed.

"Laying something down" on top of a backing track (whether it's guitar, bass, rhythm or lyrics and voice) is in the end very different from true collaboration -- and I think it's wise to keep that difference in mind.

Over the years, and most definitely out of a desire to protect those things that have my name attached as my skill allows, I choose to either be in for a penny ("do whatever you like and have fun", i.e. turn down any expectation of collaboration) or in for a pound ("please let me help you make this work for both of us"). One takes a moment, and the other can take hours and hours and hours, and often with some or all of the issues I mention getting in the way. If you're the BT person, it's sometimes most appropriate to say "You already have my permission, but I don't want to be involved in what you do". BTs are sort of blank slates though. If lead instruments are already there when the vocals arrive, then "doing it right" is even more complex and time-consuming. Not everyone has it when asked.

'Hope that helps a little. All you can do is ask, and then live with the answer...

Thanks, clayville, that cleared up a lot of questions. Welcome to JPF, good post!

Hi Kevin, Mike and Hummingbird and Clay,

Another welcome to you Clay, what a way to join, huh, and find us having a discussion about the guitar forums. By the way, my baby Gibson LG1 is my main instrument, and Martin comes in second lol.

I am really appreciating this discussion, because there are paths that we might step our foot on, and think we are going to try to take that path, then we come to a big river and think, aww, I'll follow the path back because I don't choose to try to swim it today. There is nothing wrong in trying to follow the path, because you know you can always turn around and go back to where you came from and you know the way back.

This discussion might spread some light for you too, Kevin. When I wrote lyrics to "Finally Home", I sort of got the bug, lol. That was when I started looking at tracks. Now I am trying to fully understand the details of what doing such things can mean to us, as writers and performers.

Clay, welcome, and thank you. You are an experienced voice in the world I am trying to understand. Just a few more thoughts and questions.

I understand guitar players, not meaning this in any disrespectful way, but I was married to one for a quarter of a century. He was very proud of his ability, and didn't want anyone stepping on his leads ever, lol.If another guitar player sat in, It was like guitar wars, each trying to show better than the other.He also liked to play all through the song full force. He played through a Marshal stack, and I had to move my position to the other side of the stage to sing, because he about tore my head off every job and interfered with my ability to sing, and almost to hear lol. Lucky to have kept my hearing.

Am I understanding your take on the guitar forums correctly?

It sounds as if, the forum is of like mind, and has only one goal and desire for the tracks created there. For the guitar players to jam with and post and show their abilities and nothing more.

In JPF, we all know the goal of every single person that comes here, and we also welcome,support and encourage them. There are many colaborations that come from that openness. We also all have one common ultimate goal, to create complete songs that have the possibility of getting out into the commercial world somehow, someway, someday. While I think most of us do it because of love of doing it, I don't think anyone in here would ever tell you they don't have a desire for that song to make it out of here or off of our sites that we host them on. It is not an easy path, but we stay on it even if it takes forever to reach the ultimate destination because that is our dream.

Is the consensus in the guitar forums, that what you create is created just for the group, and just to play around with, and that no one in your group has any desire to work with outsiders to develop those beautiful tracks into fully complete songs or make anything more of them than tracks for the members to play with and post to show the different guitar leads?

I do understand your points about people, and how you feel at the minute can make the decision on how you respond when someone contacts you about trying to develop your song.

I myself, am not one to contact many people as I have been a loan performer writing and putting all the music to my songs for more years than I want to say. We probably all are similar in our responses, different personalities with different responses depending on the mood and thoughts at the minute. My personality is easy going and dedicated and a little too passionate.

I am not upset with this person, it was just confusing to me to get a "good song, good job good luck with the song, I get proceeds if it makes it" then "I wish no contact". How would you ever proceed to do anything with a song, if you are asked to make no further contact. I am trying to make a decision if I should trash the songs I did like this, and I love some of them and it hurts to think I would just rip them down after I put my heart into it. But it was my choice to try it, and my mistake to make, and I will be fine and forget it after I hash it out. I always say, "I am a duck, let it flow off like water off a ducks back". And I will.

You are spreading some light on the actual thoughts and goals for the songs that your guitar forum members have. This thread will also help me decide if I should finish a few other songs I already had started working on from some of those tracks. If ultimately the feel I get is that me writing to a beautiful track is considered an outsiders imposition, I would not be able to do it. I would never impose my desire to create a song on someone who really did not want it. I do it for love and pleasure and not to be a pesky imposition on anyone.

Maybe you could take a consensus of your players. These issues that I have brought to light by writing on one of your tracks could be something you all address and make decisions on which of your members are open to developing their tracks into songs and colaborating, or if it is just a members only jam session and you want to keep it that way, or if each member has his own desires on colaboration and contact and posts that clearly and regulates a contract.

There are over 50,000 writers and musicians in this JPF forum. The main thing here, is that it is not an "elite members only" club. I have seen it grow in the year I have been here, and I have seen every songwriter and musician that ever joined welcomed in a warm manner. Maybe some of your members who are open to colaborate might take a look at joining, because I hate to see beautiful music wasted and not developed to it's full potential.

Once again, I am sorry for starting the controversy but I really need to understand and make decisions on where I step, and each of you are helping talk me through that decision.

Thanks alot

Letha

Letha,

I'm not speaking for or on behalf of anyone other than myself, and honestly: I'm not addressing any specific issue you might have had other than to offer insight from my own perspective. I think it's incorrect to generalize outward from anything I say about how I myself feel about the life of my own BTs after they leaves the nest -- especially to some consensus about how "Guitar sites" (or guitarists) feel.

There isn't, in my experience, a general issue about guitar forum people feeling proprietary about their tracks, like they're by definition off limits to others. I don't even believe that's what the correspondence above is trying to say to you. Maybe others feel that way when things move beyond the original intent, but I don't generally (though I reserve the right to do so if it's expedient).

You have to remember too that the fellow who posts his lead guitar take over a BT can't speak for the wishes of the BT writer. Heck, some of the BTs (in the age of Band in a Box and digital files zipping all over the world) may not even have been "written" by the "original" poster in the sense you're thinking.

The guitar oriented jamming sites I participate in are far from "cutting contests" where players try to out-gun each other, though some like that exist. The one I enjoy most is much, much more like a Still Life Art Class for grown-ups: someone posts a BT (the still life) and the members of the community who choose to do so react to it in their own style, with their own skills and tools. By tradition, we don't listen to the other people's takes until we've posted our own -- so in that sense you can have 8-20 people reacting "blind", coming up with their own melodies, adding additional layers if so inspired (their own still life painting). Then, most of us most of the time listen to and offer constructive insights, "ears" and comments of support for each and every player that comes along no matter how skilled. Some of these folks have been members of the same community for 5-6 years, and we know each others playing and modes of expression quite well. FWIW, most of them express tremendous guilt if their available time has been absorbed by tracking and they haven't had a chance to listen to the others before posting (there are even a couple of phrases for it: the "post and run" and the "drive-by post").

A wise member (and one of the very best players I've ever heard) once said something like: this isn't a race or a contest; we're all, even the most accomplished, just Mountain Climbers, each one at a different spot up the mountain with the summit nowhere in sight for any of us.

Though they aren't writing "songs" in the sense you mean, they are most certainly making music. Few of them have any ambition or ego at all about their recorded work, but I can tell you for sure that none of them feel their efforts have been wasted.

All I'm trying to say to you is that though they may be "found objects" to you, they aren't to the people that made them.

To me it's a good thing to contact the creator if you want to adapt their work, or put it to some other purpose -- always. You just never know what you'll get back.

--Clay

Thanks again, Clay, that's a good explanation. Do these sites make it clear that the work is meant to be "on site" only?

Clay,

I meant no disrespect for guitar players at all when I talked about my ex husband lol. I think that guitar is the instrument that makes or breaks a song most of the time, rythm too but a great lead can take your song to the heights. I play guitar, but I have a strange style, lol and I don't always want to use my style. I have more respect than you could ever know for talented musicians, and your site is so full of those. I guess that is why I wanted to take part, I am just a little naive sometimes, and never thought it out, that someone might not really want me to try to create something more.

Clay, what you said about them being "found objects" to me.I really want you to understand that I never take someones work for granted as just an object for me to use. It has to touch me in someway. I just don't pick any old cotton picking music off the internet to write to. If I get the desire to write to a piece of music someone wrote, it is because I think they have done an exceptionally beautiful job that I fit with, yes, maybe I found it, but it is like finding a Diamond for me, and I just get the urge to mine it. I mean it as the ultimate compliment. Yes, maybe I "found" and picked your sound out of hundreds that I didn't like or didn't inspire me. But I treat it with the respect and handling it deserves, and the ultimate decision of whether the song goes on or goes to the garbage I always leave to that creator.

I believe I see what the problem might be. I guess in reality, I would need someone who I know is open to cowriting, and these tracks were never intended for that. I just didn't know Clay.





I love this quote and hope to keep it in my mind. It is even better than my "I'm a duck" phrase lol.


Thanks Clay


Letha

Not really, and I don't think that's really the issue here -- the tracks don't usually even reside on the guitar sites themselves since Soundclick seems easier as a hosting option to most, and its low-maintenance in the sense that they can park stuff there seemingly forever. BTs are usually offered to the guitar sites in a "Here's a fresh one I made, maybe you'll be inspired to add some guitar" sort of spirit of invitation, but "you" isn't really defined, and because they're hosted elsewhere not all roads go through that invitation.

That said, my main haunt is the LPF and the jamming area doesn't even become visible unless you're a registered member. And since it's a site primarily devoted to the worship of exceptionally expensive guitars made most famous in the 60s and 70s, it's sort of a self-selecting crowd in some sense: mostly middle-aged blues hounds of means that fell in love with music through the early British blues rockers. Just that right there tends to keep out the riff raff! Or, hmmm, maybe it keeps them in! The "old guard" certainly has a shorthand way of dealing with each other, a common sort of vocabulary for describing tone and other guitarish elements, and a joke-y sort of rapport that may seem insular at first -- but it isn't really intended to be that way.

It's just that, like many other hidey-holes online, some of "us" have been there a while, lived with the ebb and flow of the community through things like the evolution from the "wild west" days of jamming to unauthorized commercial songs through the "no permission/no posting" years that nearly killed the site before we learned how to make/write our own -- or stick to 12-bar blues forms. Heck, almost all my own rhythm tracks start with Garageband loops. But that's all sidebar.

Honestly, I'm guessing the "don't contact" clause in the quoted correspondence really means "I don't have time to ride shotgun on this one" or perhaps "I don't need or want to be available to listen and comment on successive drafts". Also good to keep in mind when one makes an overture to establish an online relationship of some sort with anyone: none of us really know, generally, what's going on in the lives or minds of the people on the other side of the screen...

For some folks, making BTs for guitar jammers is primarily a relaxing escape from all that. We're talking about talented and serious amateurs or part-time musicians for the most part, not folks that harbor the kind of ambition of busting onto the charts that someone else might. And again: they're online guitar guys. So by definition, they're a bit socially skewed (at least online), they can't dance, (at this level) they usually can't sing, they're often self-taught, and they aren't doing it for ego... they're doing this sort of activity in moments stolen from work, families and other obligations, often in the middle of the night! The moments they have for it are precious to them, and anything else... takes them away from it.

Dear Letha....In reading the common agreement and his initial
response..how in the world were you to think anything other than what you did.? I can't see where you did anything wrong gal...
and especially with his response to you! ...what encouragement...

In general though on collaborating legalities and protocal, courtesy...

I'm not sure how others feel but
I think it's important to ASK prior to Writing to a pre-existing lyric or melody; or publicly saying we've written to a pre-existing lyric or melody; or Posting either a lyric
or melody.....to some piece of pre-existing material WITHOUT the
consent or acknowledgment of the original writer..Folks get excited and do these things...meaning no harm but......It's
happened to many folks on the board over the years....And...

It can get messy for various reasons. Maybe the poster wants to finish it her/himself. Maybe there is already a collaboration going on with someone else. When that happens, some times
things can be worked out. Some times they can't....and it gets Sticky...and shouldn't have to be that way. I think it's important to ask.

I've gotten to the point that if I look at someone's lyric..and
start feeling a melody...I write them and tell them ...even if
it's just their title or a line that sent me on a melody trip.
Maybe that's overkill...I don't know....but I'm a worrier.

This is a growth thing for all of us or most of us.....and we are so many times learning by doing..whether it's doing wrong or doing right .....and I Don't see where you did wrong, gal..
It looks like you were trying to be a good communicator.

You have a lovely gift...and I'm
looking forward to doing that Wendy Letha Kaley Lullaby some day
if you gals still want to in the future.

big hugs,
Kaley

Kaley,

Thanks alot for your thoughts. I think doing that lulabye piece of work would be one of the greatest things ever, like the trio with you, me, and Wendy acting the parts, lol.

I understand where you are coming from too. I always thought it was best to ask first also. But sometimes, I think that it is easier to say no, because you have no idea if the person really can write and you may have not had a desire in your head to even have someone write to it.

Since I sing lead and harmonies, and play instruments, it sometimes felt that it would be better for me to do all the work I was feeling for it first, just so the person had some idea of where their music was taking me. It doesn't mean that they have to say yes, but they had the real edition available to listen to, even if it was a rough draft. If I did it first, it seemed to be a better representation to help the person decide if they did want to proceed or not. What would be lost then, except my time and work in it, which was a chance I was willing to take when I got touched by a song.

But actually, there have been times where I worked on songs in my mind, but never showed them to the person till I asked. I wrote "Fly" over Tom Yeager and Tony Finno's music track I found, but I did ask first and they both said yes.

I put music to Lynn Orloffs song "Too Long Gone" and sang it, when she had it in a forum. I asked her if she wanted to hear a version I did, and she said yes. I already had it done, but if she would have said no, or I don't like it,it would have never lived on.

I did a couple of Wendy's songs before she started singing them so beautifully herself, and she seemed happy to have a version to hear.

I guess the lesson is, each case is different, and we just have to handle each one as it comes. I certainly don't want to impose my creativity on someone who doesn't want it. Although I think of it as something I love, I believe songwriting, if you put your heart and soul into it, is indeed hard work and we need to know that it is not taken for granted or taken lightly, just as much as a musician who creates a beautiful piece of music, feels strongly about the piece, I feel just as strongly about lyrics and melodies. I guess the person has to be open to accepting someone else to be a part of their work, and not all are as I now know.

I have hundreds of lyrics, and hundreds more to be written. If some good musician came along, and saw one, and created a beautiful back track for it, I would probably fall over with gratitude. Likewise, I realize I might not like what the musician did. In that case, I would be open, honest and tactful and tell them that is not working for me, but that I appreciate that they took the interest and time to try it.

I guess it just shows we are all human, and going to make mistakes along the way. I think that is why I worked by myself for years, but I got to really enjoy branching out over the last year, basically due to this site.

Another thing about me, I am not greedy for a piece of someones song. I do want to be recognized someday as a real songwriter, and yes, I would love to be able to make money and only work at music for the rest of my life. But it is the love of creativity and the love of music that inspires and drives me on.

Sorry for rambling, and thanks for your nice support and hugs,

Letha

I am an absent member from the guitar forums this month, due to the rpm challenge thing, but once March rolls around, I'll be back looking for backings to jam to. And, yes, if the mood strikes me, I'll write some lyrics to great backings that speak to me. I'll always list the backing track author(s) as co-writers, even if I recreate the backing myself to allow for arcane things like choruses, bridges and outros. It's just too addicting. To heck with rules and protocol (LOL!).

Kevin

A very good discussion.

Maybe the final conclusion is to have a clear idea of why you are on any site & why you are interested in working with one or more people there & set guidelines for yourself.

As I said, I don't have a problem with a collaboration-site, I have been a member in the past, I think it can be fun, give you experience, and connect you with people (and learn how to deal with them, sometimes). But I think one should play in those waters knowing that anything created cannot be taken outside the pool... that it's part of learning to swim, but the materials created using the resources provided by others do not belong to you & therefore cannot be used outside that sphere.

I learned a lot (including about production) by being a member of collaborative teams in the past, and I only gave them up when I felt that my focus was changing to producing commercially viable music to pitch to the market & therefore I had to have my legal i's & t's dotted & crossed... in order to approach the industry with my S-t together.

Letha, I haven't read all the responses in detail, but here's my two cents anyway. Number one, you're such a nice person that I immediately feel annoyed by that other person...especially the "don't respond to my weird and dismissive email" request. That's just rude.

But as far as protocols online? It's really up to the collaborators. I would strongly urge you to have a prior relationship with anyone before you collaborate. By relationship, I just mean in the way we get to know each other here...we read each other's posts, we get a sense of who we are. Then I would get consensus before you even try anything with someone else's song.

To me, the very idea of that collaboration site is just a whole lotta quicksand. I guess it's a good way to develop a thick skin, and to learn to be less attached to what we write...but what if you just NAIL that song? It's already dead in the water. And there are so many good people to work with right here.

(Me included--I owe you some time and attention! I still really want to do one of those we discussed on PM...just been so danged swamped. )

But there's no doubt in my mind, that was a weird situation. Once would be enough for me--I'd be outta there.

Well, my less than diplomatic thought on this matter is the guy deserves a final email telling him to go @#$%$%^& himself.

Hi Kevin,

Well, I think you can handle it, but I don't want controversial relationships that include part of my soul, meaning my song creations. I love what you are doing. It is right for some and wrong for others I guess.

Now, I swear someday I will get that there "band in a box" and I bet they will do as I say and never say a word back lol.

Thanks Kevin

Hummingbird,

I think your conclusions are very good points. I really appreciate you joining in this discussion and think it was a big help to me.

Letha

Hi Mark,

I guess truthfully, I do not blame this musician. It could be he has so many people use his music that he had to have a "turn off your contact" blanket email. Like you said we don't know the people on the internet, he doesn't know I am nice lol. I could be a crazed delusional fanatic for all he knows.

Internet colabs are funny. I rarely tell the people in my real life about my internet connections, and when I have some are adamant about it being wrong, that all you people on the internet are dangerous traps trying to get something from me. Many of the few say the same thing, "Be Careful". Well I do know that lol. Maybe that is the thinking behind that email also.

Oh yea, and I have all the patience in the world waiting on your great talent for a song, hopefully that duet, so don't you fret about that, I will be waiting lol.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Letha

Hi Jack,

Lol, I appreciate your passion in what you would respond to that email with. It is not me, and I will respect his wishes. I may would disrespect them if by some miracle some famous person came along and wanted to sign that particular song, but I guess I would put it in the subject line "Reba McIntire wants song" may I contact you?


Lol

thanks Jack

Letha

Kevin,

Sorry I missed your post. I hear a lot about people writing online and do quite a bit of it myself. What I was talking about was a series of personal e-mails about that individual, what they are into, their back ground, goals for their music etc. I think we have all been in those kinds of conversations that you "feel something is not right" before you enter into any agreements.
Probably the best thing to do if you have a co-writer in that sort of attitude, is to just move on. Reserve the work you have done and use it on some other work in the future. Again, part of my particular suggestions for writers is to write many things with many people, that way you are not bogged down over any one issue. In any case, it only goes to build your songwriting and political skills and will educate you as to what not to look for in the future.
Each song you write and each person you interact with simply goes to build up your "musical tool box" and skills. We have probably all looked back on songs we wrote a few months or years ago and have gone "What the Hell was I thinking?" It actually is kind of a funny thing to do and also shows you where you have come.
So Leatha, my suggestion is to canabalize what you have done on this song, get it away from any controversy and re-do it with another entity. Or you might find it doesn't quite move you enough to continue on with that and that is a very inexpensive lesson to learn.
Here, sometimes it takes a long time to get songs out to the marketplace. It is sometimes a three to eight year span from the conception, the demoing, the pitching the marketing, someone recording it, doing videos, getting the right deal, and getting out to the public. In that space of time, a LOT of things can happen, and I have been to numerous number one parties that the two or sometimes three writers had fallen out and can't stand each other and won't take their picture together.
So if she encountered a bit of a strange situation, it is best to find out now, and just avoid that in the future. They are only songs. You can always write more.

MAB

Marc: Seems to be solid advice, as usual. I know I am running a "high risk" situation here, but considering the chances of me going commercial, that high risk is acceptable. If somebody heard one of those tunes that were written over someone else's music and said "That's a hit, let's sign a deal", I could easily be "up the creek...", so to speak.

Since I give full co-credit, no matter how much I do on my own, it probably wouldn't be a big deal. But if the other person (if I can find them!) said "no deal", then I would be sad and blue. The good news is that I have contacted every co-author by email(s) and have gotten permission to move forward with their tunes. If it turns commercial, it could always turn ugly, though -- and I guess I will be figuring out that issue in the future.

QUESTION: With the amount of co-writing you do -- do you have a signed agreement with every co-writer now, or do you write first and ask questions later? I was thinking about that that current co-write thing you did in a bar with the "Brown Eyes Blue" writer -- did you have a contract before that?

Thanks,

Kevin

My sentiments exactly!

Who the hell does he think he is putting himself above corresponding with the lyricist? Tell him to meet me out in the parking lot.

Letha; you can do much better than that swineball.

Whoa! I think all the wicked music I've been composing lately is having an effect on me.

Best, John

not laughing at the situation Letha, you are indeed a sweetheart, rather laughing at John's picture!!

Lol,

I am sitting here laughing too! Guess the stress didn't keep my spirits down long, lol.

You guys are so real in here. I think that's why I stay. I have met (well sort of) some wonderful personalities. Why, one tiny rejection is not but a grain of sand on our mountain,lol.

John and Jack, thanks for wanting to throw down, lol, I do appreciate your sentiments, but it doesn't matter really. I bet I write a thousand songs before I die, so we'll wait till I write my next all time greatest love song on my own or with someone who trusts me and I them. Maybe I already have written a thousand, who knows, lol I got a big closet full.

Marc, enjoy hearing you talk, you make some good points for me.
Appreciate you Kevin, and Lynn, John's post was a wonderful thing and love laughing too.


Letha

Kevin,

No. Contracts only come into play when a song is going to a publisher. When you have been around as long as I have, 20 years, there is sort of a "good fellows aggreement." I guess sometimes we should have our fezes, and go into the Hall of Good Fellowship and have some root beers (obscure Andy Griffith reference) the reason you get to know people long before you write with them is because of just that.
I guess it is sort of like a "songwriter's line of credit" that is extended built upon good faith. Since I moved to town in 88's I was always considered a very strong performer. So I was always put on shows with VERY big name writers (Jeffery Steele just to name one) because I could be depended on to hold up my end, and bring real life to a show. So that resulted in me getting to know a lot of these people. They know me through my music and my performance.
But that still doesn't mean that you are "in the club." That is what I call in Nashville:
The art of the hang"
"And the art of the Referall."

The art of the hang is when you are at those special parties and the late night guitar pulls. That allows everyone to get to know each other. A lot of songs have come out of those late night parties. And it is part of the problem for out of towners to get into them. But if they know the right people (hint, hint)
it is possible. Actually, that is my business. I run a fantasy baseball camp for songwriters.

But you know, even as long as I have known him, this is the first time he actually wanted to write. Was just a fluke. But the weird thing about Richard is that he HIRED me to play his wife's 40th birthday. (She is a REAL BABE!) but I wrote a special song from a title he gave me, well actually said I couldn't write. "She's flying blonde" was the title. Which I proceeded to do onstage.
I do this little thing in my shows, like the old Mac Davis TV show, and people will throw ideas at me and I will write the song, just kind of making it up as I go. And the fun thing is when they throw a style at me. They said "Leon Redbone" and the phrase, she's "Flying Blonde" So I did it and got a big laugh. Then a few days later, actually wrote it and recorded in the studio.

So that is the way I have always kind of gotten in doors. I am a pretty live wire performer and have always had some really cool things I happen to me, around Nashville, and actually across the country.
Tonight was interesting. I was booked on a writers night. Debi Champion at the Commodore Cafe is one of the best friends songwriters have. I try to play there when she asks me. She does favors for me by putting my clients and friends on without auditions. Tonight I was feeling like absolute crap. I have had a four day cold and really have been run down. So I called her to say I was not going to make it and she told my girlfriend that "I had people there." It turned out that there was about fifty people that I knew including several from the online stuff I have been doing, on these threads as well as others. One of the people in one of the rounds even mentioned that he had been learning some stuff about Nashville from me on these pages, and he has been here for a while, but that I was "Making sense and getting him to look at somethings a different way."
That is why I do this. There are people who tune into these all the time. We often don't know who they are. They don't post, and actually a lot of us don't even know who they are. But they tune in and learn from us.
Now follow my logic. Say some singer who is really trying to learn the business, hears from somebody about this site or other sites. And they tune into this, a nice community with a lot of supportive people who care about each other chiming in on subjects they might be going through. What if they are singers but not really writers and looking for material. Then, through some part of a conversation, it answers a question and they seek out someone who is involved with that. Then they are listening to the music of that person and finds a song they like. Then, it turns out this is some 22 year old BEAUTY that is going to web sites because every guy in person hits on her so bad it makes her want to stay home.
Then she gets some songs off here and develops a networking neighborhood. That girl goes on to get attention (They all get attention) and ends up with a deal. And one of these songs are one of the ones that got her the deal.
That is my take on all this stuff. I truley believe that if you put good things out there it comes back. By the way, that senario I just told you about has happened to me probably two dozen times. I have songs being performed on stages, CD's, in contests, in front of dozens of publishers that I don't even know about. And that is why I try to clear out crumudgeons and other negative presences. And what some people take as MAB going on and on about Nashville and all that crap is just me trying to give as many perspectives as I can.
I tend to write long on these things in hopes that you can find things that apply to you and you just ignore that that doesn't. But it has been my experience that if I can explain multiple sides of any subject you might be interested in, it makes you more prepared for what comes your way. If you are prepared, you pass that knowledge on. You pass that knowledge on and it makes the neighborhood a better place.
That is what I am intersted in. And why I go the "extra mile" on these threads. If they are too long, I apologize. But I think you are all here to learn. I have some pretty good insights to share. Thanks for letting me.

MAB

Hi Marc,

I almost didn't ask you this, but do you happen to know Gene Breeden or Ann Wilson? They are the only two people I know in Nashville and I think they are both great people to know. Got a great story about Ann and my cars tierods, lol.

Letha