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#686137 - 01/27/09 02:31 AM Pitch adjustments  
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Letha Allen Offline
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Letha Allen  Offline
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Michigan
Hi,

I would like to know if there is any software available that analyzes the notes throughout a song and can adjust pitch when it is bad. I am working on a song for my sister, and we had a male singer who had a few flat notes. He is out of state and I can't get him to record again, but would like to try to adjust the bad notes.

Is this possible, and if so can you give me some ideas on programs please? If someone already has a program in place, how much does it usually cost to have one track done, if anyone knows.

Thanks alot for your time and ideas,

Letha

#686140 - 01/27/09 02:45 AM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Letha Allen]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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Letha,

There's two main ones but they are expensive--Autotune and Melodyne...

There is FREEWARE out there called Visual Vox:

http://www.globalmindmap.org/xytral/index_vvox_e.htm

you'll need the manual so navigate around to the FREE visual vox vst and manual...I DON'T use this myself so can't help you out in learning it--that is not to say I don't use intonation correction--I use the stuff that comes "natively" with FL Studio, my sequencer of choice ... smile

cheers...

--Mike


Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#686143 - 01/27/09 02:52 AM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Letha Allen Offline
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Letha Allen  Offline
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Michigan
Thanks so much Mike,

I will go there tomorrow and see if I can get it to work for me.

So appreciate the help and wish me luck,

Letha

#686144 - 01/27/09 02:54 AM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Letha Allen]  
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Johnny Daubert Offline
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Johnny Daubert  Offline
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Send the song to Sub and let him really give you something to give to your sister!


Actually a Member Since 1996 or 97 (Number One Hundred Something).
https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=1409522





#686147 - 01/27/09 03:00 AM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Johnny Daubert]  
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Letha Allen Offline
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Letha Allen  Offline
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Michigan
Hi John,

I would love for sub to get hold of it lol, but she can't afford it and right now neither can I. I might have to check and see how much he would charge to just get it in pitch though, lol if I can't use one of the programs.

I will try that first, but if I can't I sure will consider Sub.

Thanks alot for your idea,

Letha

#686223 - 01/27/09 11:49 AM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Letha Allen]  
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Moker Jarrett Offline
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Moker Jarrett  Offline
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i have worked with the melodyne...it is a wonderful tool but is time consuming even in the hands of someone well versed at the use of it...it can take notes up and down and can give the special effects like in the CHER song "Do You Believe"...i'm not sure of the name of the other one i've been involved with but it is much simpler to use...i have noticed how a trained ear can really pick up subtle pitch issues which honestly i can't hear as well as them...when they are through with their adjustments i can hear the difference but many of the spots which were worked on i probably would have passed over not noticing they needed a bump here or there...i'll have to check the visual vox out as a freeware option because this other stuff is not an inexpensive option and with times being like the are, i'm so broke it ain't a joke smile when i did use these other programs it was at a studio we had paid for a block of time with a great protools engineer to mix my rock cd "Ready To Fly"...see ya and good luck...moker

#686228 - 01/27/09 12:04 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Moker Jarrett]  
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Kevin Emmrich Online content
Kevin Emmrich  Online Content


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Crozet, VA
I have never tried it, but: http://www.gvst.co.uk/gsnap.htm
One of these days, I'll get Melodyne, but I might just try out the gsnap thing.

Kevin


"It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The 'hard' is what makes it great."
Kevin @ bandcamp: Crows Say Vee-Eh (and Kevin @50/90 2019)
#686240 - 01/27/09 12:52 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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Colin Ward Offline
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I don't know what you are using, but Audacity has a pitch correction function. If you have the vocal as a separate track in Audacity, you can highlight a flat note and raise the pitch by a user-defined amount. You have to go through and find each note that is off and fix it.

If the vocal is not on a separate track, everything else on the track would also be raised by the same amount (not good).


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#686243 - 01/27/09 01:32 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Colin Ward]  
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BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
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Most studios use Antares Autotune or Melodyne and both work really well. The Audacity pitch controller that Colin mentioned is a really good tool and can change pitch on the whole piece, a complete track or just a selected note or two. Very easy to use however prolonged large steps in pitch can sound distorted. The main reason why vocals should be recorded on separate tracks is it is so easy to correct bum notes or edit and add fx afterwards.

#686255 - 01/27/09 02:00 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Johnny Daubert Offline
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Johnny Daubert  Offline
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Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
The main reason why vocals should be recorded on separate tracks is it is so easy to correct bum notes or edit and add fx afterwards.


Ha!!! That won't fly with Sub! I stood in front of the vocal mic for hours, for one song!,,,("John,,,,do that line again so I can punch in the word "the"....."OK,,,,let's do it again,,,this time, try not to tail off as much.....I like what you're doing, but I think it can even be better! Yeah......now just one more take, and let's hear it!"

Fix vocals afterwards!!??? You're funny Jim!


Actually a Member Since 1996 or 97 (Number One Hundred Something).
https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=1409522





#686261 - 01/27/09 02:14 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Johnny Daubert]  
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niteshift Online content
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Fiji
Hey John,

Yep, you have the luxury of a real studio. Most folks don't. I refused, for many years to use pitch correct, figuring if the vocalist couldn't pitch, then ditch em and get another.

With internet collabs, it's very useful, just to give a nudge to those parts which are slightly out of tune or miss the pocket.

Most pro studios these days, will produce a "comp" track from 4 or 5 takes, with the producer picking the best phrasing and intonation of all the takes, and combining it to the finished product. It's much less time consuming, though not as much fun as punching in "take 237 " smile

Letha, give me a link, and I'll see if I can fix it up for you.

cheers, niteshift

#686302 - 01/27/09 04:38 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: niteshift]  
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Herbie Gaines Offline
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Funny Letha, I just finished my recording project, and I thought that if I was flat it could be easily fixed...BUT...if I stayed on the flat note it worked ok...but if I warbled the note...then the pitch correction didn't know what to do...if he warbled it, it could be unfixable.


Herbie
JPF Chicago Chapter Coordinator
http://www.herbietunes.com

#686349 - 01/27/09 08:04 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Letha Allen]  
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Brian Baughn Offline
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Brian Baughn  Offline
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Baltimore, MD
I use Melodyne. It's tricky...in general, you don't want to change the pitch of consonant sounds...just the vowels that need it. Takes a bit of work, for sure.


末末末末末末末末末
Brian Baughn
BaughnSongs
#686419 - 01/27/09 10:38 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Moker Jarrett]  
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Letha Allen Offline
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Letha Allen  Offline
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Michigan
Hi Moker,

I appreciate the talk. So many things to learn and so little time to learn them.

Lol Moker, Your next song title:

I'm so broke it ain't a joke

Thanks again,

Letha



#686421 - 01/27/09 10:41 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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Letha Allen Offline
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Letha Allen  Offline
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Michigan
Kevin,

Is that a program with capabilities to adjust the pitch? If it is, is it free. I may download and try every free program I get a lead on and become the "Free songwriter tool researcher", lol.

I will check it out anyway, thank you.

Letha

#686422 - 01/27/09 10:46 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Colin Ward]  
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Letha Allen Offline
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Letha Allen  Offline
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Hi Colin,

I have worked with audacity for a little while, although there is much I don't know about it. I find the noise removal a little bothersome sometimes, as it leave a strange sucking sound if you don't crank it down enough.

I did try to change the pitch with audacity, and maybe I didn't experiment long enough with it, but it was such an abrubt obvious difference in the note, I thought it sounded better a little flat. Probably just not adept at using it. I will keep trying though.

The vocal is on a seperate track, and I did isolate the bad notes and work on them one at a time, and I was grateful for "Undo", I think that is audacities greatest tool lol.

Thanks for the input,

Letha

#686423 - 01/27/09 10:49 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Johnny Daubert]  
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BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
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Originally Posted by John Daubert
Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
The main reason why vocals should be recorded on separate tracks is it is so easy to correct bum notes or edit and add fx afterwards.


Ha!!! That won't fly with Sub! I stood in front of the vocal mic for hours, for one song!,,,("John,,,,do that line again so I can punch in the word "the"....."OK,,,,let's do it again,,,this time, try not to tail off as much.....I like what you're doing, but I think it can even be better! Yeah......now just one more take, and let's hear it!"

Fix vocals afterwards!!??? You're funny Jim!


Snap John I FEEL YOUR PAIN.... lol.... I have experienced the same thing. My pal Dave whos studio I use hates using Autotune etc. He records three versions and selects the best bits even then I have to punch in things he is not happy with. I might be happy with the track but he is very hard to please. Yeah I tail off sometimes drives him mad. When I said fix vocals afterwards I meant Fx Eq and compression etc. Some people use pitch correction as a last resort some use it as a first. I was just stating it can be done as an option. LOL

#686424 - 01/27/09 10:51 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Letha Allen Offline
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Letha Allen  Offline
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Hi Jim,

I know from our discussions on Audacity in other threads that you are very knowledgable about the program.

Here is what I am lacking in the technical field. I know that the note is flat, but not being technically train, how do I get the increments I need to correct it? Maybe there is no easy answer there, except to get better trained in that area or just keep experimenting (like I usually do) until it sounds right to my ear.

Thanks Jim

Letha

#686428 - 01/27/09 10:59 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Letha Allen]  
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BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
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Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
Letha there is no way other than ears. Trial and error is the only way. Start in small increments and repeat till it sounds right. Only highlight the part that sounds off. Use the cursor and magnifying glass to find the peak that is wrong. It is easier to do on a note by note or word by word basis. Hope that helps. Tip..... it might be easier to record a couple of vocals or even more and punch in the best bits to replace the bum notes. PM me if you need more help.

#686431 - 01/27/09 11:05 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Johnny Daubert]  
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Letha Allen Offline
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Letha Allen  Offline
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Michigan
Hi John,

lol, ok, I understand what you are saying here. I have recorded in a couple studios, and also been "punched in". I remember thinking, hmmm, seems to me I could have done the whole song over quicker than that punching in of a few lines or words.

I agree with Jim though. I try to do takes of my own the best possible way that I can, but I am human, lol, and there are flaws that can be made better after the fact if you don't get the perfect take that you thought you did.

There is a difference, in the quality of programs used, the degree of experience you have and the quality of equipment you have to work with I guess. We all have the ability to progress in all those areas over time, but we sometimes start out on free programs, as babies in the field, with cheap equipment, and try to learn to do what we can with what we have till we can progress to another level in all those areas. Got to start crawling before we can walk, and then someday run lol.

Oh, I do believe that I have discovered a new "line", used mostly by producers:

I like what you're doing, but I think it can even be better! Yeah......now just one more take, and let's hear it!"

LOL no offense, producers, lol. Keep up the good work!

Letha

#686433 - 01/27/09 11:09 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: niteshift]  
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Letha Allen Offline
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Letha Allen  Offline
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Hi Niteshift,

Thank you so much, of course I will have that link to you in no time flat! If anyone knows how to work with hard vocals, lol, it would be you, not that I would know anything about that, lol.

This one you are going to hear might be a challenge, but I think it is worth it for my sister, and I appreciate your offer to give it a try.

Letha

#686438 - 01/27/09 11:15 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Letha Allen Offline
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Letha Allen  Offline
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Jim,

I had about ten takes on it, and I already tore them apart and pasted the best parts together. Don't think that the vocalist is bad, it is just that he came in for one day, never heard the songs before, and I think he did a pretty good job for on the spot. He isn't a professional, and I don't think he ever sang with a drum beat and headphones before, but I want to fix him up if I can.

Thanks for the offer of help Jim. I am going to send it to Niteshift first, and let him try with his equipment and experience. If he spits them back at me, lol, I sure would start my own experiments again and would love to have your audacity expertice with me. I sure appreciate it Jim.

Letha

#686440 - 01/27/09 11:21 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Herbie Gaines]  
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Letha Allen Offline
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Letha Allen  Offline
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Herbie,

Thank you for your help. I did not hear that he used any vibrato, is that what you mean by "warble it"? He did use a lot of hard driving notes and bends though, and those might cause some problems, although I used compression on his vocal. Sometimes, people that just sing from their hearts and aren't trained professionally are the hardest to work with, but I find I love raw emotional singers even if they aren't as commercially appealing to the ear.

PS, He never really got to hear a finished take yet, and I don't think he is even aware that he was off. I don't want him to know lol, if I can help it.

Thanks again for your help,

Letha


#686442 - 01/27/09 11:25 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Brian Baughn]  
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Letha Allen Offline
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Letha Allen  Offline
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Michigan
Hi Brian,

Nice to meet you and thanks for your thoughts. I understand that Melodyne must be a good program, from the number of people who seem to like it in here, but I can't afford to invest any money into a new program right now. Michigan winters make you invest in Propane stock, lol.

You did say something very interesting. I never thought about it until you pointed it out, but it does seem to be the vowels that are most of my problem with it, especially long drawn out notes. Just interesting to consider that.

Thanks again,

Letha

#686508 - 01/28/09 05:44 AM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Letha Allen]  
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Kolstad Offline
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Posts: 3,813
Denmark
Hi Letha,

In addition to the suggestions above, to my knowledge Sonar 7 also have a pitch correction tool. So if you know anyone who works in Sonar, they probably also can help you. But Im sure nite is up for the job.

I have worked a little with Melodyne, but Im not comfortable in the programme to a level, where I can offer others help. I risk messing it up.

An other thing progammes like Melodyne is useful for, speaking as a songwriter, is to rewrite melodies. This is very useful if you were like me (you are not!), a singer with a very limited range.

So by working with the pitch correcton tool in Melodyne from a songwriting perspective, you can experiment with different pitches, until you think the melody of the song is absolutely right.


Buzz Tracks
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#686530 - 01/28/09 08:53 AM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Kolstad]  
Joined: Nov 2006
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BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
BIG JIM MERRILEES  Offline

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Posts: 8,463
Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
Hi Letha FYI using Audacity, a semitone is about a 5% pitch shift expressed in percentage terms. So if you are using Audacity do not go up or down in semitones. Very few singers will be a full semitone out. I would change things by a small percentage and repeat/undo till it sounds right. There is no quick fix as each note or phrase could be out by different amounts and some will be OK without needing any alteration. Sometimes singing slightlly sharp or flat can add depth to a recording depending on style and genre. EG blues, pop and jazz etc tend to sing slightly flat. Trained classical, opera and stage musical styles tend to be sharp. Things that meter as being perfectly in tune do not always sound right. I bet you have found that out using a tuner with your guitar. So bear that in mind. Use your ears. My ears are not bad so as a last resort I can have a listen and maybe help...LOL

#686645 - 01/28/09 06:21 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
Joined: Sep 2007
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Mark Kaufman Offline
Mark Kaufman  Offline

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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,567
Minneapolis
Doesn't Audacity's pitch shift tool also have a Preview button? If so, you can listen for the pitch you're trying to achieve before you tell it to go ahead and process it.

#686733 - 01/28/09 09:54 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
BIG JIM MERRILEES  Offline

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Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
Quite correct Mark it does have a preview. It only lasts a short time so can be a bit unreliable if you want to listen to the whole part.

#686811 - 01/29/09 02:16 AM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,408
Letha Allen Offline
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Letha Allen  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,408
Michigan
Jim,

Thanks again for that info. Actually, that is very helpful to me, and I will experiment on it. I am going to take niteshift up on his offer and hope he can work some magic on them lol. I appreciate your help Jim, and if I can ever do anything for you musically I return that offer.

SongCabinet,

Thanks for your info. I do plan to get a more advanced program, hopefully in the not too distant future, but for now I have to muddle along, lol.

Mark,

Yes, I have tried preview, but it seems to last only a split second, so that isn't very user friendly to me. I do plan on experiementing more with what I have in Audacity too, it is sure not a bad program for free.

I appreciate you all,

Letha

#687138 - 01/30/09 01:34 AM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Letha Allen]  
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,554
Jack Swain Offline
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Jack Swain  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,554
Berwyn, IL, US
bump

#687164 - 01/30/09 03:22 AM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Jack Swain]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,408
Letha Allen Offline
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Letha Allen  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,408
Michigan
Hi Jack,

Thanks for the bump, lol.

I am working on this project at this very moment, and have sent the tracks to Niteshift to give it a go. I sure appreciate the help from you all. I will post the finished song in the forum when I get it finished, and I will refer back to this thread so that everyone can see how helpful everyone is here at JPF.


Thanks again so much,
Letha

#687516 - 01/31/09 10:34 AM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Letha Allen]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,907
Colin Ward Offline
Colin Ward  Offline

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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 7,907
Saint Petersburg. FL
You can adjust the length of your Audacity 1.3 preview in the preferences window (Edit, Preferences, Audio I/O).


Colin

I try to critique as if you mean business.....

http://colinwardmusic.com/

http://rosewoodcreekband.com/


#687525 - 01/31/09 11:34 AM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Colin Ward]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
BIG JIM MERRILEES  Offline

Top 20 Poster

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
Thanks Colin. I did not notice you could do that. You learn something new every day.

#687540 - 01/31/09 12:02 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,408
Letha Allen Offline
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Letha Allen  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,408
Michigan
Hi Colin,

I thank you too, my preview was so short it was like here and gone. That's why I love this place, lol, good to have such friendly help and knowledge to learn from.

That's a great piece of news huh Jim??

Letha

#688882 - 02/04/09 11:24 AM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Letha Allen]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,199
Marc Barnette Offline
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Marc Barnette  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,199
Nashville, Tn.
Ask the singer to come back and fix the notes. Man, this is a long way around doing something pretty easy. I have had to come back and fix stuff, it is really no problem.

MAB

#688887 - 02/04/09 11:48 AM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: Marc Barnette]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
BIG JIM MERRILEES  Offline

Top 20 Poster

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
Hi Marc
Whilst I agree in sentiment and theory with what you say, in practice it is sometimes much quicker and easier to adjust the ocaasional bum note by using a pitch adjuster. It does save studio time and the singer having to come back. Some singers could be there all day trying to produce an in tune performance even just for a punch in. I have known some others who would not be able to sing in tune at all regardless of how many takes. It is a studio engineers job to make recordings sound as good as they can be. A good engineer will use all the tools he has to achieve this. A pitch adjuster is just another tool. Sometimes he has no control over the quality of singers who use his facility.

#688900 - 02/04/09 12:16 PM Re: Pitch adjustments [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,575
niteshift Online content
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niteshift  Online Content
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Posts: 5,575
Fiji
Hey Marc,

For many years, I refused to use pitch correct on principle. These days, if a studio is not equipped with Melodyne or Autotune, they are doing themselves and their clients a dis-service.

There is also distance, time and budget to consider. In this respect, it's just another tool, and sometimes a very useful one.

I'm sitting here, laughing at myself, as if the question were asked a few years ago, I would have had quite the opposite opinion.

cheers, niteshift


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