JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Using Cliche's but unaware

Everybody knows the cliche' rule in songwriting. I just listened to some of my songs and found a few of them. I am not ready to change things, mainly because no one else has noticed it, or at least let me know about it.
Has anyone else found cliche's in their songs that they were unaware of when they wrote it?
I don't see a problem with using them, it depends on the subject matter and if the cliche is suitable for the song. You may want to avoid obvious cliche's or adages. I would also like to read Ande's take on this.

It all depends on the song. We have so many common phrases in our language, that using "cliches" is almost unavoidable. If the music is attractive and engages the listener then I would say not to worry about "cliches." They may work for the song rather than against it, especially if the music "invites" the listener to sing along. (LOL, it may help them to remember the words.) If the song works as a whole, who cares about the rule?

Aren't Cliches Cliche?
What's a synonym for "synonym"?
Isn't explaining the meaning of the word "redundant", redundant?

Language is fun to play with and I wouldn't get too worked up about
the structure of a song to the point where it supercedes the result.
Cliches by definition breed familiarity, and familiarity is comfortable.
Comfort is good for commercial purposes.

Jean and Danny M, both observations are right and proves my point. So what's the big deal with the cliche rule? Like I pointed out on my first post, it may apply to a well known adage, for an extreme example "A Penny Saved Is A Penny Earned". Of course I would never find a spot for that saying.
Nice cat Danny. Is that a Florida Panther, Bobcat, or Tiger? "Cupcake" added a few scars to my arms this past week. He really loves me but has a strange way of showing it. Ben

My take on cliche's is to avoid them whenever possible, but don't beat yourself up if a few slip into your lyrics every now and then.

Jean comes close to a point I've often heard made about cliches. Since another "rule" of songwriting is to use natural, everyday conversational language, how can you not use cliches since they are part of our natural, everyday conversations? It seems that the two rules sort of contradict each other.

In one of my songs, WHEN THE LONELINESS SETS IN, I use a tired old cliche, but was able to "get away with it" by actually acknowledging it in the song. The bridge goes:

ABSENCE MAKES THE HEART GROW FONDER (the offending line)
I KNOW THAT'S JUST AN OLD CLICHE
BUT I SWEAR I LOVE HER THAT MUCH MORE
WHENEVER SHE'S AWAY.

I wouldn't sweat cliches too much. They do have their place on occasion.

Greg

I think they have their place, I just hate to see them used when they're thrown in for the sake of rhyme, or because the writer couldn't find a better way to say something. In all fairness, sometimes the listener finds a great deal of satisfaction in hearing the familiar phrase - something that grounds them somehow.

Overall, though, if I can find a better way to say something, I will. I think Greg made a good point about his "offending" line (above). Just don't do it because it's easy, is all.

My personal favorite "Hot-button" - the inevitable "game" brought up in love songs. (I know, it's a personal taste thing)

Number 47B of many soapboxes. Did ya hear the one about...?

:-)

Cheers,

Barry

Wow DannyM, great post! - right up my alley. Never thought of it like that.

I still try to say something based on my experiences of living, not necessarily something 'new' or totally ripped of cliché's.

Schooled in pragmatism, I guess it's all about HOW you uses language, not just WHAT you use. Allthough the twain does not exclude each other..

Ben Willis,
That is a beautiful 3 week old female lion cub.
At that age, they are absolute sweethearts.
You can lie down with one next to you, confident that when you
wake up all your fingers and toes will be intact.
All they want is a warm place to sleep, a bottle, and an occasional
scratch under the chin. Yes, those are natural blue eyes.

If I use one I know I'm doing so.
I'm not as worried about it as some folks seem to be.

It depends on what you want to do with the song.
Having sat in on a few pitch to publisher nights in Nashville I can tell you this.
They will point out every cliche in the song and will pass on it.
Same with over used or lazy rhymes, like heart/start or love/above.

Having said that.
If you listen to modern radio you will hear them every day.

The difference is WHO wrote the song, and who is singing it. Established hit writers can and do use them.
You can't.

But if it is for your own use, who cares?

Some of the HIPPEST Things-Said FAST-become cliches...(Isn't that GROOVY?) ;-)>

So I'm fairly-careful about using Slang..as well as the Avoidable "Stock Phrases" in lyrics.

BUT..Twisting a Cliche HAS yielded me a good Hook or Two in the Past...like "The Grass is Always Greener (Outside Our One-Horse Town)"

"Familiarity Breeds Contempt"...to Use a Cliche to Describe Cliches. "Lips of Wine" for instance..propels me instantly Back to the Everly Bros. Days..& back-Beyond.

Been-There, (prefer Something NEW), Thankee! Cliche RHYMES are also Major-League BORING...Like "Eyes/Hypnotize"..(& my mind goes Shopping Elsewhere in the Universe, IMMEDIATELY, upon hearing THAT Ol' Saw Again in a lyric.)

Then there's "Cliche Subject Matter", too...which, for me, would include Any Lyric comparing Love to Gambling/Vegas/Card Games of Chance/etc. (Tho havin' said that, maybe I'll pen one about "The Love LOTTERY" & complete-the-Set...) ;-)> But JMO that "Realm"'s been Done-to-Death..& is now in the heap of The Curmudgeonly-Cliche. (Ditto for "Train Songs"...mostly. JMO.)

Waal, Time to Shaddup, or I'll sound Too-Cliche...

JMO, again but I think Good Writers CAN come up with New Ways to say Old Things/it's part of The Job Description.

Big Guys-Hug,
Stan

Right Stan
I was just about to add that.
BUT
WINNER AT A LOSING GAME. How's that for a perfect twist cliche Love/gambling line and song.
Big recent hit for Rascal Flatts.
Like I said it depends on WHO is writing it and WHO is singing it.

Amen Brother Billy!

Just yet-another Fine Example of a GOOD Writer sayin' Old Things in NEW Ways. I've forgotten WHO to credit with that Truism that there's "ONLY (I've forgotten the EXACT Number, too) about FIVE Love Songs" all-totalled to Write About.
1) Falling In-Love
2) Falling Outta Love
3) WANTING to Fall in Love
4) WANTING to Fall Outta Love
5) Being In Love

(I've probably messed up the count/Parameters...but that's all I can think of at the moment) Maybe #6, "HAVIN' The BLUES" would cover it?)

Anyways..God Helpya if ya pen the Hook "Another Silly Lovesong"...heh! But SOMEONE'll think up SOME New, TWISTY-Way to DO the next big "LOVE" HIT...you watch!~ ("Hat's Off" to whomever penned that "Love's Like a RAZOR" line for Bette
Middler, eh?)

"You Breaka Da Rules, You Getta Big HIT"...

Gotta Scoot..La Femme wants the Computer. "I Love You Enough (To Let You Use My Keypad)"...has possibilities...heh!

Big Guy-Hug,
Ol'Stan

ya know, they say to write conversationally...people use cliche's all the time...then you put one in a song and people pick at it...then you change it to a fancier word...and they say it isn't conversational....just remember...there's STILL people that don't like the Beatles and people that think Bob Dylan stinks. Just like the Field of Dreams, "build it and they will come" ... people that are gonna like what you do are gonna like what you do...

Herbie and Bill, I agree. I consider cliches a form of cultural shorthand. Using one does provide the advantage of *knowing* you're giving the listener a common frame of reference. Since the purpose of writing is to communicate, that's not a bad thing.

Of course I'm aware of cliches as I use them. That's part of knowing the language. i try not to be hackneyed about it--why re-invent somebody else's wheel? One should, I think, be trying either to express a new idea, or if an old idea, to express it in a new way. If a cliche helps, use it.

I got over my aversion to cliches by writing a song that was entirely cliches ("Twenty-Four Seven"). A love song, of course--if you're going to do cliches, you might as well go all the way. (It was a waltz, too.) It actually didn't come out half bad.

Stan, there are more types of love songs than you mentioned. I've got a boy-stalks-girl song, and a boy-runs-over-animal-with-his-truck-and-thinks-about-meeting-girl song, even a girl-not-so-inadvertently-kills-boy song (my baby sister's favorite, but she's a nurse).

Joe

Don't forget
Guy goes broke trying to impress girl
Guy dies of stupidity trying to impress girl
Guy gives girl everything to take with her to her new life with someone else.
Guy buys girl mail order
Guy buys trophy wife
Guy falls in love with Celebrity image.
Ex girlfriend beats the crap out of ex-s current girlfriend.
Ex girlfriend beats the crap out of ex-s truck, house, etc.
Person falls in love with their pet or other animal.

This conversation inspired me to write a song with a cliche as the title and hook.
It's here if you are interested.
http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=677530

Y'all just bring out the best in me

Using cliche's in small measures to reinforce a point can help.
What I don't like mostly are lyrics to where I am singing about myself.
They often start out that way, but I have to reflect them back on something other then me.
Sometimes a cliche comes in handy for that.
Otherwise it may be babblespeak.

Iffin the song in totality is so great, the cliche' ain't gonna matter nun (that's cowboy talk) less theres waaaaay too many and then in that case it wouldn't be so great to begen wit!!

I'm fixin' to agree with ya Lynn

That thing about not using cliches is SO cliche.

Hi Ben,
I'm not going to read all the other responses before I say what I have to say, my attentio span is very short today....

I've spent the past two years listening to the pro writers that come down here for our Summer Concert Series, honestly, they use them alot, ALOT! I've paid so much attention to the structure, schemes, etc. and have noticed that they, in fact, use them and then tell others not to. They say "that's been done to death" and then do it themselves, so personally, unless it sounds cheesy, I wouldn't worry about it. I cna't tell you how many of them would scold a novice and then turn around and use the very phrase they said had to be done without.

Hey Ben:

My take is somewhat "contrarian." I believe one should do whatever helps to "make the song." To me, a good cliche is sorta like caviar at the old Plaza Hotel in NYC. Certainly, everything should be used in moderation.

Happy New Year, fellow aviator... and happy landings.

Dave

http://www.showcaseyourmusic.com/DaveRice

Of course great songs use cliches, but the greatest ones create lines so good that they become cliches. That is what you should strive for, but do not be afraid to use them if the writing seems to call for it. That is my take on it. Many songs through the years have benefited by using cliches, often used as the title or theme of the song.

Using cliche's in small measures to reinforce a point can help.

What I don't like mostly are lyrics to where I am singing about myself.
They often start out that way, but I have to reflect them back on something other then me.
Sometimes a cliche comes in handy for that.
Otherwise it may be babblespeak.

But lyrical content or what makes sense with it does not always seem to be a factor in the likability of a song, depending on the music that is accompanying it. That is where lyrics seems different from poetry. There is the music to accompany that and it would be hard to rule out a song for just a cliche.

I have heard songs often to where the lyrics are different then what I thought I heard when I read them.
That seems to change the dynamic of them.
But the method that the lyrics were made never bothered me either way.

If there were lyrics more suitable for a certain genre then I guess that would matter.

When I first joined JPF, there were always a lot of discussions regarding cliches. Here is a link to a lyric I put together (with the help of JPF members). I asked them to give me country phrases, sorted and assembled them and wrote a chorus. Here is the link if you are interested.

http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/57574/page/900

Thanks Jean, I just read the lyric and thread, and everyone else only confirmed what I believe. The reason that I brought up this well covered subject was that I spotted a few cliches' in some of my songs that I wasn't aware of before. Thanks for the replies and remember, "If it ain't broke don't fix it". Let's put that in a song. Ben