JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum Lyrics: Not Meter & Syllables, but Rhythm

I was thinking about lyrics that are written BEFORE there is music composed for them. Some people say a lyric by itself is a poem, but that's not really true.

Just a thought here: I notice in a lot of good songs, the lyrical lines have a bizarre rhythm all their own....not necessarily measured by traditional poetic meter nor by syllable count, but by the line's own peculiar rhythm.

You can't just trust to syllable count, because rhythms may be different. For example, the following two lines both have six syllables:

Johnny is a rock star
I want to suck your blood

...but they clash---they're too different to belong in the same musical phrase:

JOHNny is a ROCK star
i WANT to SUCK your BLOOD

And sometimes lyrics employ MIXED meter instead of a long run of say, iambic pentameter that sounds like ta-DA ta-DA ta-DA ta-DA.

Like this one:

Tonight you're mine completely,
You give your love so sweetly,
Tonight the light of love is in your eyes,
But will you love me tomorrow?

That's not so easy to classify from line to line...it follows it's own conversational rhythm pattern employing mixed meter. But everything will work out fine if the other verse matches the same idiosyncrasies, line for line. Once a composer finds the key to scoring the first verse, the second one should work out just the same with no adjustments to the melody or rhythm.

Now, a lot of people who write lyrics ask questions about how they should decide on meter, syllable count, etc. I say you can do anything, just as long as you keep the pattern you wrote consistent. You don't really have to think in terms of meter or syllable count...you just need to be consistent with whatever rhythmic pattern you have started. As long as that is somewhat consistent, a composer can trust that Line 3 of verse 1 will have the same internal rhythm as Line 3 of Verse 2.

Figured this might make for some good discussion...

Mark,

A very interesting post. And I agree with you completely. As long as the pattern is consistent throughout the song, as you indicated, it's not a problem.

I have written a number of song where the meter of lines 3 & 4 did not match the meter or syllable count of lines 1 & 2. But, I repeated the same pattern in every verse.

Country music seems to be the genre, much more so than other genres, in which the lines are so tightly drawn. I grew up listening to and playing country music, the music we today call Traditional Country. I loved it and still do.

However, it is the formula writing the country business demands that led me to explore gneres other than country. And, for many reasons, I am glad it did. I now write, compose and perform in about a dozen genres and really enjoy all of them.

I still listen to country about half the time. The Contemporary Country is less formula driven that Traditional Country; however, it is still far more formula driven than most other genres.

That may have been a slight diversion from your topic, but they go hand in hand, I think. Also, going back to your initial statement, meter and syllable count need not be perfect because whern the lyric is sung, words can be slurred, held longer, contracted, etc. by the vocalist

Good post, Mark, that touches a lot of my thoughts about songwriting.

Alan

Thanks Al, I agree with you.

I wrote this because I often read posts from people who only write lyrics (not music) wondering how they should be arranging these lyrics for music. And the answer isn't so simple.

Some people say you should just match your syllable counts: Wrong--without proper attention to natural rhythms, you'll end up stressing words like "and", "but" and "a".

Some say you should always write in some poetic meter: Unnecessary--read some lyrics and you'll find they don't always stick to one meter or another, but rather a mix of meters.

I think whether it's country or anything else, it's hard for a composer to put music to a lyric that keeps changing up it's rhythms from verse to verse. If you're applying lyrics to an existing piece of music, that might work...but if you're writing a lyric that's looking for music, I wouldn't suggest getting too creative with your structure...unless you already know your composer's style pretty well.

Good point Mark. An example of this that I have been analyzing recently is Taylor Swift's cd "Teardrops on My Guitar." Almost every song is like that. By listening, it is very difficult to determine the exact rhyming line patter she is using. The cadence changes substantilly.

I finally looked at the lyrics and it helped figure out how she did it. There is structure but that structure has lots of variations. The constantly breaks her "rules" of cadence. The rhymes still work and the songs work, because of how she phrases the lyrics and because of the overall sound.

Tom

Good points all round. There are exceptions to every rule but the rules cannot be broken too often. Every song must flow and there are other things to be taken into consideration apart from syllables. The tongue twister syndrom is one that bothers me sometimes. Words that do not flow well together making the line hard to sing. There is also techniques where some short lines can be "stretched" to fit the rythmn and some long looking lines that can be "crammed" into fitting. Funny thing the slow songs seem to have longer lines than the fast songs. You would think it should be the other way round. It amazes me how Country people seem to be fixed on the same rigid formulas and chord structures whereas rock and pop generally accept and have more varied and informal structures.

I understand the importance of keeping rhythmic consistency, but I also understand how meter and syllable count need not be perfect because the singer can adjust, as mentioned. But I think I’m a little confused about the difference between rhythm, cadence and meter. Not having a melody in mind (which I usually don’t when I write) I feel like there’s room for the singer to keep it “flowing” (for lack of a better term). But that has to affect the melody, so how do writers take that into consideration when writing? How is the writer to know how that will pan out? Not being a singer myself, I feel handicapped in that area.

Personally, my best gage for whether a line “flows” is if it speaks (“sings”) naturally in the context of the words when heard. I think my best gage for whether all the lines flow from verse to verse is when I read it over as an entire piece, nothing sticks out. I’m sure this is the elementary way of doing things, but I’d love to know how others obtain that “rhythmic consistency.” It’s so hard to tell sometimes without a melody/music.

Well, one device I use sometimes if I have a line I like, but might prove difficult without a specific way of delivering the words is to develop the phrasing with a unique interval leap to help the words along.

Hi Kristi. You have pretty much summed it up. If a lyric speaks well to a rhythm pattern then it can be put to a tune. IMO the only difference between speaking rhythmically and singing is the notes change.
I mostly write lyrics first and then add melody. It is important to tap out the beats as you recite the words and see if it fits. That is meter. If the words do not meter properly then you will have probs setting a tune.
When we speak our voice naturally changes tone, pitch and volume to express what we are saying. The art of a good songwriter is to convey these changes in the melody and chord structure. It is very easy to explain but difficult to achieve. LOL

So, interval leaps help "stretch" the line....I can see that.

Big Jim...hey, everything you just said really makes sense to me! ..."the only difference between speaking rhythmically and singing is the notes change." It sounds so simple, doesn't it? Never thought of it like that. So to reiterate what you said, which I totally get now: you say the melody and chord structure is really our pitch and volume and tone when we speak. Yes, that's it, isn't it? Wow. What an awesome explanation...

It could help stretch the line, but it helps more sometimes when the pronunciation is a bit of a challenge.

Not true. A lot depends on the definition of poetry, which is basically a manipulation of language for purposes of emphasizing it's aesthetic or evocative properties, including sound and metaphor. A lot of so-called modern poetry does not emphasize the lyrical conventions you find in modern song lyrics (and it still considered poetry) but relies instead on semantics.

You can anything that is not standard prose a poem -- it might be a really BAD poem, as the VAST majority are.



You mean its meter. Prosody is the study of poetic meter. This is something that ALL writers should be familiar with but most don't have a clue. Most people think that all you have to do to write a lyric is have a certain number of syllables per line and make sure the final syllable in each line rhymes. As Alexander Pope once said, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.' The result is volumes and volumes of REALLY BAD POETRY. 99% of the bad poetry you read suffers from problems with meter. Some writers have an internal knowledge of this but most have to learn the rules (and MOST DON'T). The key is the stress patter in each metrical foot (which is a sequence of syllables. strong and weak). Here is some info about this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meter_(poetry)

If you area lyricist are are not willing to take a few hours and educate yourself about prosody and meter, you need to stop writing NOW.



...but they clash---they're too different to belong in the same musical phrase:[/quote]

The first line consists of three trochaic feet (three strong-weak feet); the second line consists of iambic feet (three weak-strong feet).



Word choice will often affect this. All single words have a default heavy stress, except for pronouns in certain positions.

Hi Kristi. OK now you understand...... but to press the point home try this neat experiment. Pick some of your fav songs.... some happy.... some sad.... some fast.... some slow. Speak the lines without singing. You will see how the song meters and how your voice conveys the feeling of the song. Check the rises and falls in tone and pitch and the slowing or quickening of the phrases to suit the mood. Great songs melody and chord structures just mimic what our voices do naturally.

Great thread!

I've been educating myself about prosody/meter recently, as I feel my lyrics need improving.

A while ago, I bought a copy of "Successful lyric writing - a step by step course and workbook" by Sheila Davis but it's been sitting on my shelf for a few months now. I'm planning on studying it in September, but in the meanwhile, I have also learnt a lot about writing lyrics from "The craft and business of songwriting" by John Brahemy, which is a book I highly recommend.

Kristi, your question about making sure the melody works---before you know what it is---is exactly what I'm hoping to help with here. Whatever word pattern you set up simply needs to be consistent from verse to verse. Then the melody will fall into place. You need to be able to say your words out loud and feel the natural "beats" of the words.

Johnny is a rock star

matches

ev'ry single hipster
or
twenty thousand yard lights
or
pretty little hamster

These rhythms we speak (or sing) are like little drum solos.

Then here's the different six syllable drum solo:

I want to suck your blood
or
you've got to change your mind
or
my wallet caught on fire
or
she's such a silly cat

rblight, you're right, "meter" is the word to describe these rhythms, but I want to make sure people can recognize a pattern that is not consistently in one particular poetic meter, something that's "mixed meter" and conversational, and be able to match it with other lyrics. Like this:

Tonight you're mine completely
You give you love so sweetly
Tonight the light of love is in your eyes
But will you love me tomorrow?

Is this a lasting treasure
Or just a moment's pleasure?
Can I believe the magic of your sighs?
Will you still love me tomorrow?

I'd like to know that your love
Is love I can be sure of
So tell me now, and I won't ask again
Will you still love me tomorrow?

Or here's a better example of "mixed" meters being matched well:

Some nights he'd come in through the old bay window
sarcastic smile before it turned to stone

His eyes were holding back great waves of anger
She stood awhile, but it was time to go

Just "feel" the rhythm of words, like little percussion solos.

Okay Jim. I found a Billy Joel lyric that I always admired: “We Didn’t Start the Fire.” Now, I’d like to know how well these first few lines of that lyric match. I think they do, of course, even though it’s just a list and not conversational. But it illustrates it, right? The matching rhythmic flow?

HARRY Truman, DORIS Day, RED China, JOHNnie Ray
SOUTH Pacific, WALTer Winchell, JOE DiMAGgiO

JOE McCarthy, RICHard Nixon, STUDEbaker, TELEvision
NORTH Korea, SOUTH Korea, MARIlyn MonROE

That’s easy to see. It all flows very nicely, even though I would NEVER think that Red China and Studebaker have the same "rhythm!" But these mixed metered ones that you say work, Mark. I tried to accent them to see how they work.

Some NIGHTS he'd COME in THROUGH the OLD bay WINdow
sarCAStic SMILE beFORE it TURNed to STONE

His EYES were HOLDing back great WAVES of ANGer
She STOOD aWHILE, but IT was TIME to GO

How far off am I? It seems like the top two lines are off because of the “come in” unless “come in” was sung as one word. (If I was writing that, I’d probably change it!) LOL But I can see how a singer could compensate for that.

I’d like to think I’m aware of the rhythmic matching when writing....those little percussion solos...yeah, I see that. All writers should be. But I also think I wouldn’t know for sure if something was off just by the words until the music was applied…cuz the singer can phrase it and sing the little words to accommodate for that, no? I think as words only, you’re limited to some extent. Some lines are more obvious than others to flag!

So how do we account for the Kinks singing...

"You got me SO i CAN"T sleep AT night"

This is an interesting discussion to follow. Most of the posts so far seem to be in agreement, with just different levels of detail provided.

I like simple explanations. The ones that suggest we should just write the way we talk...using normal conversational stresses.
And making sure that we are consistant matching the verses, line for line, relative to those stresses.

At the same time, I really admire the knowledge that's been presented...you guys really have some cool stuff to share.

Most of the REALLY bad poetry I have read is very technically correct.... But has no soul, and is boring as if the writer was so busy showing how clever they are at the mechanics they don't feel the need to actually write about an interesting subject or include any feeling. I've written my share of bad poetry

All though I agree that poetry and lryrics come from the same root stock... and often cross over to each others domain, A statement like "Lyrics with out music are just Poems" is like call the Bask, "Spanish". It doesn't make them any less Bask just because they live in Spain.

Some people can entertain, make others see hear and feel weather it be with words, music or art. There are some technical aspects that explain why some things work better than others. But in the end a good story is a good story no matter how badly expressed. If you can't tell a good story without it being technically correct... then there is a chance that story telling is not your vocation. If you can't engage and move your target audience no amount of technical ability is going to save you. Yet there are plenty of successfull Musos, singers and writers who really if put under a microscope aren't all that great.. they hit bum notes, use poor grammar and have raspy voices but still people love them ...... The trick is not to lose sight of the forest because of all the trees.

Cheers

Noel