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#624893 06/11/08 05:21 PM
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Hi Folks,

I was watching some info on the various alternative fuels out there and one report stated that it took 146K gallons of water to make 1 gallon of Corn Ethanol. Then they stated that if we used every piece of corn grown in the entire USA that it would only replace 4% of the gas we use. And if you added all the Soybeans as well, it would still be under 10%. So why are we wasting our time with that? The cost of corn has risen so much that it's more expensive, even at todays gas prices, to use corn anyway. And now our food costs way more. It's spiraling.

They also said to replace the power plants with solar, we'd have to cover the entire surface of the state of Arizona with panels to replace the power plants.

So what the hell should we do? Here's my crazy idea:

1. We add $5 dollars a gallon in taxes starting immediately. That would move us up towards the UK in terms of cost per gallon.

2. That will cause us to use a lot less gas immediately, and it will cause prices to actually drop due to less demand. In addition, the futures/speculation market will crash and all those assholes who have artificially caused gas prices to go up will be financially hosed. (A side benefit).

3. We will take part of that tax money and immediately start a massive program to build an entire infrastructure of Electric and Hydrogen filling stations. They have replacement battery systems and self generating Hydrogen power plants on site. This would make it possible to drive electric cars anywhere full time with use of any gas.

4. We will take the rest of the tax money and subsidize the cost of new electric vehicles to make them so cheap that the production numbers/sales will be massive, also lowering the cost due to economy of scale. We will even offer programs to folks to turn in their gas cars for recycling for additional credits and we'll offer additional tax credits so that the purchase of these reduced priced electric and hydrogen cars are tax write offs.

5. The massive need to build these vehicles and process the recycling and build the infrastructure will create a record number of new jobs and will turn our American auto companies into the most profitable and powerful in the world once again. Meanwhile, with the demand for oil continuing to plummet, we will see airlines much healthier due to falling fuel prices.

6. To create all this needed electricity and wean off of coal as well as natural gas and the remaining oil needed, we will build new nuclear power plants across America. Technology has improved dramatically over the 30 years since we build any of these and they are incredibly safe. Once we have Nuke plants on line making the electricity we need, we will be almost 100% off of both coal and oil. Our air will be clean. The global warming crises will be over. Our folks can drive quiet cars reducing noise polution (which is no small benefit) and our car companies, due to economy of scale, will sell their cars world wide helping us balance the trade deficits we have. We can also shut down the off shore oil wells along our coasts in across the country. We can use those resources to build and maintain wind power and solar power strategies.

7. This will effectively also solve our national security problems. Guess who we will send back to the stone age? All of our Middle Eastern enemies who rely on oil sales to fund their terrorist activities. Oil will be nearly worthless and soon enough those oil powers who have held the world hostage will have to come begging to us for our help again.

Would $10 dollar a gallow for gas hurt? Yes. For about 2 years, it will hurt us a lot. But after that, we will regain our independence, clean up our air and water and land, put people back to work, significantly improve the quality of city life, put our entire auto industry back into power world wide and end the entire global warming issue almost overnight.

So what do you all think? I'd love to hear your thoughts!

Brian


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Brian,
I think you've put a lot of thought into this and have come up with some awesome sulutions. The $10 a gallon thing isn't appealing but I like the rest. The problem with the $10 a gallon gas prices wouldbe that companies that furnish vehicles for employees to drive and work out of would end up downsizing even further due to profit loss. Which would up the unemployment rate, and further hurt the economy. (just my opinions as a business owner that currently is shelling out well over $2,000 a month just to work in town, 3 trucks and 1 car) I think what we should all do is solar power our homes, do everything else you have suggested for vehicles and leave the middle east to their own devices.



Caroline


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I like it, but I don't think the tax thing works. It just gets a million hands in the money that will try and keep it. It's human nature. Why can't we just SEE what you're saying about hydrogen and nuclear power, take the bull by the horns, and starting doing it ? We are empowering our enemies by buying oil from them. It's suicidal ! ! We buy gas from Russia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Venezuela...what's wrong with THAT picture? We should have started looking for new technology in 74.


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Caroline,

I agree that the gas tax is painful in the short term. But it serves to force people to switch to electric and hydrogen. These vehicles (as nice as a prius for example) may cost as little as 10K brand new with the subsidies. In addition, the cost to you for fueling these vehicles would be about $2 or less per equivelant gallon. In a short amount of time, you'll pay for the 10-15K in vehicle investment.

Additionally, we would lease the infrastructure (i.e. all the electric/hydrogen filling stations) to the current US owned oil companies to give them a new direction for their own business models once we've collapsed the oil industry. There might be jobs lost in general due to the transition time, but in about 2 years, all of it will even out and actually improve across the board. A short period of pain will be several generations of growth and success for everyone on so many levels. The military can decrease their budget. The positive impact on the enviroment will open new opportunities in polluted cities and polluted waterways. The fishing industry will be able to turn around their fortunes etc. And global warming will halt almost instantly. Imagine if the US stopped having ANY emissions in 2-5 years? Imagine all the other countries who would follow suit?

Thanks for your feedback.. I welcome disagreements and ideas. I want to refine this idea as we go.

Brian


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All good points. Problem is we (meaning me) tend to look at the short term too often.


Caroline


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I think your plan would work, if it was ever implemented and if we survived the riots and the economic crash. Ten dollar a gallon gas would devastate most businesses that depended on customers living beyond walking and/or bicycling distance. When those businesses crashed, and unemployment spiked, the riots would begin. Of course, in a few years, we might reach $10 a gas, but like the frog that sits in cold water that is slowly warmed until the frog cooks, we wouldn't be affected as sharply. Additionally, you probably couldn't find one politician (not even a Democrat!) who would vote for a $5 per gallon gas tax. (well, maybe some Democrats).

I do think we need more Nuclear fuel (it's dangerous...so are cars...more people have died from cars than from nuclear accidents so far). I agree on the need for electic/hydrogen stations.

Basically good ideas, but I don't think there's any chance of getting a tax that high on fuel. Maybe in increments if the Democrats get in, but they'd have many other things to spend it on. Democrats don't, generally, give a lot of money to the fuel industry.


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It would take someone being 100% straight with the people and making the entire process 100% transparent. i.e. all the money could be traced and scrutinized.

I see this as a national security issue. I see it has a world health issue. I see it as a global enviromental issue. I see it as a common sense issue.

Right now the UK already imposes about 6 dollars a gallon in taxes. People there are pissed.. but they haven't been given a reasonable alternative beyond public transportation. I would have added an aggressive public transportation improvement segment for this, but I think that cost would exceed the cost of building stations and subsidizing cars. The great thing is that the fast you switched to electric or hydrogen, you'd avoid immediately not only the increase, but your operation costs would immediately plummet due to the cost of fuel being 2 dollars or less per equivelent gallon.

The government could ALSO extend write offs for those businesses making the transitions. In other words, we'd make switching so attractive, that nearly everyone with any financial resources would benefit. For those at the lowest end of the financial spectrum, We could offer additional financial support for them to switch to an electric or hydrogen vehicle. At the same time remember, the cost of gas would actually plummet to probably 2 dollars or less per gallon, so even with the tax, it wouldn't cost much more than it will cost without doing any of this. The tax is more to force people to switch than to raise the money. The relief on the government getting off oil (the Gov itself uses HUGE amounts of fuel) would also be a benefit.

If there was a candidate who suggested something this aggressive or even an aggressive but different approach, I'd vote for him or her without hesitation. We need an approach that approximates going to world war.. we geared up our entire economy for that and everyone benefitted and everyone had a job. Let's do the same with this. Let's kill the oil industry in 5 years. Once we're off that cycle and those that hold the world hostage are removed from the loop, we can refocus on even newer and better technologies and our entire quality of life and economy will thrive like never before.

Brian


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Brian, these are excellent thoughts. I have to agree with everybody who talked about the impossibility of a $10 gas tax, no matter how desirable.

My idea was to do it incrementally. Just tell the oil companies, okay, price of fuel goes up a penny, we add another penny tax. Price of fuel goes up a buck, we add a buck. It'd be nice to start with some kind of nest egg like you suggested, but the reality is nobody's going to propose it or vote for it. But right now, everybody's pissed at the oil companies. If we'd done this a year ago, the government would be collecting today an extra $2 in gas taxes (and the price of gas would be $2 higher).

You can do tax credits--hefty ones--for purchase of electric vehicles, and construction of facilities to serve them. This is a trick devised by Richard Nixon's economists back in the 1070s, and it did work well. As far as oil companies building the facilities, sure, they can--but I wouldn't give 'em any breaks. I'd just tell 'em, "It's going to be buklt, it's going to be built in this town, and it's going to be built by such-and-such a date. You build it or we build it and run it in competition with your oil business. Your call."

One transportation component that's been letting the Europeans tolerate higher fuel prices is *trains*. Probably part of the Grand Plan needs to be a rebuilding and revitalizing of U.S. rail service, both passenger (which virtually does not exist any more) and freight (which is a joke). And electrifying it, of course, with all that nifty nuclear power you're talking about.

So, I'm ready. When's this gonna happen?

joe

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Does anyone have a figure on how many gallons of gas are used in the entire USA per day? That figure would be a nice starting point to start doing some public math.

Brian


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You know you might be on to something Joe....

So I propose that we match the current cost of gas in tax dollars. That would me we'd go from $4 dollars a gallon to $8 dollars a gallon immediately. If the price goes up any, we match it. If it goes down, we reduce the tax 50% of the drop.

So, if gas rises to 5 dollars a gallon.. we add 5 dollars of tax for a total of $10 dollars. If gas drops to 2 dollars a gallon, we drop the tax 1 dollar so it costs 3 dollars a gallon. Then we'll see what gas can REALLY sell for.. if they don't lower it to the lowest it can be for them to remain profitable, they'll lose demand due to high price. So this would force the cost down, force revenues to go up to fund the change over and perhaps lessen the damage to consumers. However, if there isn't a massive incentive (i.e. getting away from high cost of gas) to switch, people won't do it. So we need a little pain to get people off their asses.

Brian


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I just wish that the government would say we are going to do a "Go To The Moon" or "Manhattan project" style project to wean us from foreign oil in the next 5 years. It can be done now. Plug-in hybrids can probably get 100 miles/gallon for the majority of daily drivers (I don't really know the conversion of kwh to barrels of oil, ton of coal, though). Hydrogen fuel cells have proven worthwhile -- just need to learn how to do high-volume production (and the filling stations). It seems to me that the brunt of this probably needs to be borne by the automobile driver. Trucks need the "power" that diesel can give (opinions?).

I think the whole corn-based, sugar beet conversion to ethanol has/will become a disaster due to food costs. Let's see, massive flooding in mid-west farms, corn being planted instead of wheat has cut into our wheat stocks, super-fungus destroying our wheat -- I see food prices spiraling out of control in the next year or two.

The major problems that I see for a new "Manhattan Project" are
a) the American government has already bankrupted us -- where will the funding come from
b) multi-national firms have a lot of power to influence politicians -- there will be a bigger push to drill more instead of switching
c) Tons of pain for the average American.
d) Probably tons of other problems, too.

Oh well, it is always darkest before the dawn.

Kevin



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Kevin,

This is what I am talking about. Someone, somewhere has to stand up and say "this vaccination is going to hurt, but it's going to save our lives and our planet and the American way of life in the USA." The politicians on all sides are wimps and puppets of major corporations and none have any backbone at all. They get us into this "dems versus reps" fight where we get petty and whine about pointless BS, all while the same puppeteers own both parties and while we're not watching, rape and pillage us.

I am sick of it. I hate the 2 party system. It's become so corrupt and evil/rotten at it's core that the decay is oozing out of all sides. I am sick of otherwise rational people taking up sides like it's a football game instead of our lives. I am sick of being lied to by both sides. I am sick of the media playing the game and making it all worse for ratings. This "gotcha" politics has diverted our attention to the real world.

The price of gas should be about a dollar a gallon. The rest is BS. So I want to kill that industry. Once we do, for the few modes of transportation (big trucks and airplanes and military vehicles) we'll have cheap gas. Everyone else will be using something else. We can stop digging up coal and the miners can stop dying from black lung disease.

Our country has lost its culture. Everything is generic in what I call the "blandification" of the US (and frankly, the world in some cases). I was struck by the deep cultural heritage in the countries I visited in Europe, but also observed that it's vanishing there just like in the US. In Germany, it was often hard to tell you weren't in the US... the only difference was some language on some signs and the roads were a lot nicer in Germany.

In the words of that famous movie line "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!!!" = )

Brian


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oh, somewhere in Germany, there is a car made this year (maybe last year) that gets 150 mpg on diesal. Now, if we could make one
and if they could make a sedan out of it, or at least a coup to seat 4, we can lower our fuel needs tremendously. I don't need an SUV to get me around, but it'd be tough with 3 kids on a bike.


Caroline


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Some problems with your solution immediately come to mind for the short term.

1. We would be gravely affected between the time the tax was implemented and the changes occurred. Everything we do or buy would be more expensive to the point where a recession would become a depression from which we may never recover. We are already on that precipice.

2.Building nuclear power plants would probably take 30 years, plus whatever time it would take for the naysayers to stop fighting them. Energy has to originate somewhere so electric cars would just move the source from gasoline consumed in the car to oil consumed by the power plants - (albeit more efficiently).

3. There are no electric vehicles available even if we had the electricity. Designing and building electric cars would take a few years.

4. Distances between everything are far greater in the USA than in any European country. While public transportation works in densely populated areas, it is much less likely to be successful in the US. Europeans and Japanese jump on a train or bus like we jump on a plane......because their cities are so much closer together.

Long term your solutions make sense, but a better plan is needed to get from here to there.

How about cutting back our driving by 20% to start with. If everybody was forced to cut back by 20 percent by either incentives or rationing, the gas price would fall like a stone and many of your benefits would be realized. Reducing unnecessary trips to the store, carpooling to work, penalizing gas guzzling vehicles, telecommuting, teleconferencing, are steps in the right direction that would require little heartache. I recently read that a 20% reduction in consumption would lower gas prices to the $1.50 range. I have already reduced our family gas consumption by 20% with no hardships, just a policy of combining trips to the store, switching to suppliers of services, like doctors, that are closer to home, etc.

One of the big problems at the moment is that a free market is not in play. While I believe that consumption is increasing in third world countries, it is not happening at a rate that would support a doubling in oil prices in a year. So the supply side is being controlled by said assholes who have decided to sell less and raise prices. We are stupid to have got ourselves in the position of being dependent on them.

By the way, what's wrong with covering Arizona with solar panels?

Colin


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Colin, I think it's a great idea. Arizonans need the shade anyway...

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Brian, A well thought out and interesting proposition. I wish it would be that simple, but it’s not.

The increased gas prices are already having a big impact on our economy as they are being passed on to the consumer. Vendors raise their wholesale prices or tack on fuel surcharges. Retailers have no choice but to raise their selling prices to maintain any kind of profit margins. As prices increase, sales drop off. Sales drop off, employees are laid off or businesses simply cease to exist. Politicians then step in to take care of their voters by raising the minimum wage. The wages go up, and the cycle starts all over again. At ten dollars a gallon, the ripple effect would be catastrophic.

The answer is not to penalize the already wounded economy. There are solutions out there. There are answers. Unfortunately our government is in bed with big business, therefore real solutions are never considered nor an option.

Growing up in the Vietnam era, I thought my generation would be the ones who would lead the way to change. I thought we would ask why and always question authority. I was wrong.

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Just to stick my oar in.... I've been wondering why there isn't some sort of rationing on petrol. I travel by public transport, my own 2 feet, and the occasional cab. I get my organic groceries delivered from a place that buys locally.

OTOH, my Dad (who is ailing), lives about 11 hours away from here, even public transport doesn't get me all the way there. But if there was a ration I could save my share for that kind of thing.


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I'd be all for covering Arizona with panels.. I just know a few folks there who might not like it...

Actually.. maybe we should cover Alaska with panels.. no one lives there anyway..

I think a dramatic rise in price would do 2 things. One it would force a cut back in usage and two it would raise some of the money needed to fund infrastructure.

The USA had a very weak and outdated military going into WWII. We ramped up across the nation and that ramping up actually led to unprecendented growth in all other areas of our economy, productivity and quality of life. I suggest we go into wartime mode once again where we bludgeon the problem with massive focused effort for a short time and fix it.

Nuke plants don't take 30 years to build. Especially if our entire country is ramped to build them. France gets 80% of their energy from nukes.. most of the plants are new.

Does anyone have actual data on how fast a plant can be built fron scratch? Whatever that time is, I bet in a ramped up situation, we could cut it in half easily. We'd also put a LOT of people to work.. in a similar way we put people to work in WWII (both in the military and at home).

One thing I would suggest is to let retirees keep all their benefits AND get full pay to come back to work full time. Right now we have a disincentive for many to work because they cut their benefits. Screw that.. we're in a war right?

With our productivity zooming forward and everyone working and getting paid for that work, the economy will actually do okay. In the 70's under the Carter years, the problem was that everyone was unemployed.. and we had gas rationing. Why ration gas? Let's just make folks pay for it. You want to keep driving more than you need? No problem. .just pay us for it. Want to drive a gas guzzler? No problem.. that's just more money for us in taxes. Want to save money? Get a new electric car... the money you save in fuel will cover a lot of your monthly payment!

We could have the entire infrastructure for Electric and Hydrogen in a couple years or less if we focused on it. They can put up a McDonalds in a month.. they can put up an electrical station. Sure.. at first, the coal plants will be humming along like crazy.. but their days will be numbered. While they cash in short term, they'll need to either invest that money in the new technology so they can be viable companies beyond the change, or be taxed on it if they don't and go the way of the dino's that made the fossil fuel.

Great points Colin.. thanks for the input!

Brian


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It seems, as I suspected, that there's an element of fatalism out there that suggests that there's simply nothing we can do. That's never true. We can always do something.. we just collectively have been lulled into a sense that it isn't our country and it isn't within our reach to impact a solution...

Gas is likely going to hit $5 a gallon on it's own. Meanwhile nothing is being done RIGHT NOW... to fix anything. That's a self fulfilling prophecy of doom. Either we start fixing it.. or it gets harder to fix than now. Think my solutions are extreme? Wait another year... see how it looks then.

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Yes, we would have a sense that the world would end if we went to the extreme. Yes, we would all be better off in the long run, the problem I see is that the short run for so many would be devastating. I think that to make your plans work, we would have to pool resources, country wide, (not communism, but a realistic helping hand) which would help more now anyway. Everyone would have to understand the way it would go, not just the gov't.


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Originally Posted by Colin Ward
1. We would be gravely affected between the time the tax was implemented and the changes occurred. Everything we do or buy would be more expensive to the point where a recession would become a depression from which we may never recover. We are already on that precipice.

2.Building nuclear power plants would probably take 30 years, plus whatever time it would take for the naysayers to stop fighting them. Energy has to originate somewhere so electric cars would just move the source from gasoline consumed in the car to oil consumed by the power plants - (albeit more efficiently).

3. There are no electric vehicles available even if we had the electricity. Designing and building electric cars would take a few years.

4. Distances between everything are far greater in the USA than in any European country. While public transportation works in densely populated areas, it is much less likely to be successful in the US. Europeans and Japanese jump on a train or bus like we jump on a plane......because their cities are so much closer together.

1. America survived a depression before. Why wouldn't it again?

2. Why would building anything take 30 years? Why does it have to be nuclear? There are other technologies that are efficient, a simple browse of the web can prove that.

3. There are electric cars. In fact there are now several manufacturers making them. All electric cars. From simple little ones to extravagant sports cars in several price ranges. Again, time to step out of the box and look around.

4. That depends on the part of the US being referring too. Some parts are very close, others are more spread out.

Who here is really putting their money where their mouth is? My bus runs on used veggie oil. Not a solution, but it certainly works in the meantime to help alleviate the issue of wasted cooking oil. My next car will be all electric (that's my goal for next year). I plan on installing solar panels on the roof of my house and garage - to get myself off the grid as much as possible (plus I'll need to charge my new car).

I only put my trash out when it's full. I recycle about everything I can. I only put the recycle can out when it's full. I'd like Los Angeles to implement a system where you only pay for refuse when it's picked up and not a flat fee. People that create more trash, should pay more for trash pickup. I wonder how to get that started (they do it in England). Thus I generally only put my trash out for pick up about once a month.

Musically speaking, I no longer use blank CD's to check mixes. I use my iPod and plug it in to various systems if I need to check it.

I only buy food in amounts that I will eat and not waste. I change my motor oil every 6000 miles, then I take it in to be recycled.

What do you do?


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Ethanol from corn is a waste of time. I don't think they can extract more than 10% from corn. Sugar cane it's about 95%. But we can't grow sugar cane in the US
Solar panels can only extract 20% of the light energy from sunlight. It only uses Ultra Violet, 20%, of the light spectrum. That's why Solar is so expensive. and won't work until they solve that problem.
Electric Cars can't go far enough between charges. The Batteries are too inefficient.
Producing enough Hydrogen in mass is to expensive and we don't have the infrastructure for it. It's also dangerous.
Nuclear will take to long to build, especially with all the Bleeding heart liberals that will be peeing all over themselves because it is radiation. They will be filing lawsuits from here to Moscow trying to stop it.
Wind Power won't work because people don't like seeing windmills all over the neighborhood.

You want to solve the problem in one day?
Make it illegal to drive a car with an empty seat on the expressway during rush hour. The times when people are going to and from work.
If you have a 4 passenger car all the seats must be occupied.
Have you ever looked at the cars on the expressway during rush hour in any city. Nearly all have no passengers. One person, the driver.
People would bitch and moan but they would comply. It might take a while to get them use to the idea but they would comply.
The lower traffic volume would make shuttle buses very convenient in downtown ares.

And like you say Brian
We need a Person with vision, and the Cajones to make it happen.
Oh I forgot to mention.
An alternative fuel would be the ultimate goal. It will probably be hydrogen.

The next thing would be to build a rail system on every existing Expressway we have. Make taking the train a way of life rather than the exception. Transport goods by rail.
Of course the Teamsters might put out a contract on you for doing it though.


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All of yall have good points. All good points have a bad side too.

I think we first of all we need

to open up drilling,

take tax breaks away from the oil companies till they open refineries--give tax breaks for new refineries and nothing else,

pass a law to where the top four guys at exxon only make one million each instead of a billion between all four of them and make do similar things to other companies,

stop making plastic things where we could go back to steel or paper or cloth products (as in sliding boards, grocery sacks, and diapers),

pass a law like China did that we are not going to pay over $87 for a barrel of oil,

outlaw unnecessary trips by politicians,

change this: the per capita federal spending on AIDS is $15,450. That compares with $285 spent per capita on cancer victims, $33 per capita spent for victims of heart and vascular diseases, and $25 per capita spent on victims of diabetes even though AIDS has killed only 565,000 Americans total since 1981 and heart disease and cancer has killed that many EVERY year since 1981 and diabetes has killed twice as many total as AIDS has since 1981!!!!

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HiDee Brian!

I've already penned 2 Songs (Board 3) on this Subject.."Work One Less Day a Week" (Which'd cut commuting 20%/solve the Imported Oil Needs & our National Wealth getting Siphoned-Away) and "AUTOMAKERS HAVE OIL ON THEIR HANDS", which reports on Rumored & FACTUAL Examples of Detroit selling (& buying) patents that benefit ONLY Themselves & The Oil Companies..(INCLUDING a VERY Marketable Battery-Motor Patent which WOULD'VE resulted in a PRACTCAL Electric Vehicle with a Range of about 180 miles per charge, best I remember.) Chevron's Bought & KILLED IT, in 2003. So..Good Luck with marketing a GOOD Electric Replacement Vehicle.

As for Nuclear Power Plants...Anybody remember Three Mile Island?
Far as I know, Nuke Plants STILL Generate Power by Rods heating water to Steam, which runs thru PIPES,..to spin Blades which turn a Generator to create Electricity. NO Plant's "Entirely-Safe"..but I think I'd rather have a Conventional Coal-Burnin' Plant FAIL than a Nuke-One. Lots less-Cleanup/Lots More-Affordable for the Local Customers to Fix. (You STILL get some Thermal Pollution off the Nuke's Cooling Stacks..dunno the Diffo in Amount between Nukes & Normal ones, tho.) Yeah, Less Carbon & Sulfur emissions...BUT...ARE there Really SAFE Storge areas for spent fuel rods..(& LOTS MORE of Them) for the next Thousand Years? Maybe Longer?

As I got passed by a NUMBER of Fast-Drivin' SUV's today on the way home from work, I reflected on a TV program I saw a few days ago: PART of the "Cure" is ALREADY Taking Place: This SUV Owner..who owed $13K on his rig..took it to a Car Dealer seeking a Smaller Vehicle. Dealer only offered him $3K. BECAUSE "These are No Longer IN-DEMAND...and are HARDER-TO-SELL nowadays."

So..Word is OUT: BIG-Gulpers cost ya MORE than MOST Normal Folks wanna SPEND. So: Future Trend, Long-Overdue: SMALL Cars/BIG Mileage. Maybe SLOWER Speed Limits again..& perhaps Electronic Enforcement..for a change.

Here's an Idea: Change MOST of the Country's STOP Signs to YIELD.
Bet ya'd IMMEDIATELY Save over 10% of the US's Gas Consumption..maybe MORE..Permanently! Instead of BILLION Dollar Nuke Plants, how 'bout Thousand Buck "Smart" Stoplights..that sense Traffic Flow. Speed up Flow/Cut Down "Stop-&-Go" Traffic & save a lot MORE Gasoline Consumption. (Euros got "Roundabouts"...traffic rarely STOPS "Dead"..result: Gas Savings. Fewer Fatalities at Intersections is a Side Benefit.)

While I yearn for the day that all Hummers are Artificial Reefs, I dread the day Gas goes up Another CENT. Why? Because the US Economy's already BEEN in a Recession for the last 2 years, as far as my "Luxury" Business goes. NOONE's buying another Grandfather Clock here in Florida..(Down from One Sale a Week to one every TWO Months, of late) BECAUSE Nobody HAS Much "Disposable Income" ALREADY. Property Taxes: DOUBLED over last 3 years or so. Insurance: More than DOUBLED 3 years ago. Income? You Don't Wanna Know. You hit the Average Consumer $10 a gallon to Get To Work, & he's going to mostly Stay-Home..IF he has one to go home TO.

New National Trend: Living IN Your Car, when your House gets Foreclosed-On. New Urban Problem: Creating SAFE Places FOR Car-Dwellers TO Live in Their Cars. Solution: Sure to require a Tax Increase..You Betcha!!!

Other Energy-Savers, already-used around the world successfully: The Pedicab. Zero Gasoline Necessary. & One JOB is Created!

Just Seen on TV: An American who's made a 4-Passenger Bicycle..looks like a lightweight CAR..but has 4 sets of Pedals.

I still have Faith in Yankee Ingenuity..And the Free Marketplace..to solve Our Energy Crisis...sans Big Taxes & Big Gov't Projects. Europe's had $6 a Gallon Gasoline for AGES...& their Money is now Worth MORE than Ours..by HALF already. Why Is This? PARTLY because their Average Citizen lives in an Appartment...IN the City..& Takes Mass Transit to work. Less-Living Area to Heat-&-Cool than Us House-Dwellers...NO Expensive Auto to maintain. Or even CARE what Gas Costs!!!

There's a Limit what the US Consumer WILL Spend on Gasoline...& I'm sure we're not there yet. But I still think we CAN Control Prices...by slowing down a LOT..to a bare CRAWL when Gas Costs More than we think it's Worth.

I remember bitchin' when it hit a Buck-a-Gallon. &..now..heh..These apparently ARE "The Good Ol' Days." (Alas.)

Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

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I work in Orlando and my wife works in Tampa. We both have jobs we love - and we live in the middle. We spend $10,000 per year on gasoline at $4 per gallon.....

We've been doing this for 10 years - I knew this day would come smile

Obviously, I don't want to pay $20,000 per year for gas. But we all have to make choices. Either we'd pay it or one of us would change jobs and we'd move to that city.....

I say all that so that you can feel free to say that my response to your proposal is purely selfish grin

I think your proposal would be fine if the price of gasoline was the only thing that was affected. Unfortunately, the price of almost everything would go up because of the cost of shipping. We could adapt, of course, and shift to buying everything locally. But the time scale for making that change is a lot longer than the time scale needed for adjusting our driving habits. I think the cumulative inflation of all products would break us.

I think the short term answer is for the government to give tax breaks to those who buy fuel efficient vehicles. The more fuel efficient, the bigger the tax break.

I think the medium term answer is nuke plants and electric cars. These are proven to be feasible and would require no fossil fuels. And there is probably enough to tide us over until fusion is developed.

Yeah, nukes are scary. So is freezing smile

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The reason I said that it would take 30 years to build a nuclear plant from conception is not that there is any physical reason for it to take that long, but that in our society, the mind numbing bureaucracy would be too busy pandering to various special interest groups to just get on with it.

In a previous life (as an engineer and manufacturing manager), I had the misfortune to spend some time in Richland, Washington near the Hanford nuclear research center which had recently been shut down. Our government had formulated a thirty year plan to clean it up and completely close the site. I don't know how they are coming along, but they must be about 12 years into the program at this point. I would be willing to bet that at the end of thirty years, there will be extensions required to finish the last details that will take another thirty years. We are spending billions and billions of dollars just to shut this place down and paying large salaries to countless civil servants and contractors. With that kind of experience, I am not very hopeful that building new nuclear power plants can be accomplished quickly.

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See this documentary movie, "King Korn":

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/10008698-king_corn/

Well worth the watch, I saw it on Netflix. Hugely entertaining, but also a very sobering glimpse at what has happened with the corn industry in the last 20 years.

By the way...there is a 99.9% chance that something you ate or drank today contains corn syrup...

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A big factor to consider when talking anything about US economics, is the way the "private" enterprise of the Federal Reserve prints money like crazy backed by little, if nothing.

Gold has climbed, while the US dollar has fallen in opposite to gold. Without addressing that, most plans about money wouldn't be compete. Especially when talking about everyone's money, top to bottom. The US and Saudi Arabia have an agreement that the Saudis should only accept US dollars for their oil to any buyer. When the dollar is low, what happens to the price per barrel? (I don't know,,,,just asking). But it seems there's a tie between the strength of the dollar and oil.

Side "note": Gold and Silver could be traded in the open market, which could help the overall economy and the strength of the dollar. ??? Is that right?

About the Plan:
There would need to be a comprehensive plan to present any plan.

One would have to know all the workings of politics, the Federal Reserve, and the CIA and other like entities, and know how to present such a plan, with all the factors laid out for each. Everyone would want to know how any plan would affect THEM.

Wish I was of more help with the actual plans. What may seem simple in a few paragraphs, might not be as simple when dealing with multiple interests and political people.

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The moment someone moved off the oil grid, their financial problems with the rising cost of gas would disappear. In the case of Scott for example, though 1 year of that would cost 20K in gas, if instead he spent that 20K to buy 2 electric cars, the next year that travel would cost 4K or less. In addition, other commodities would also drop because the cost of travel for everyone would drop by 80% as well. In addition, to help with the pain of that initial investment, you'd get to write it off on taxes and continue to get tax credits for your part which would put even less burden on you. As the dollar dramatically increases in value, your buying power for all goods would increase so that all goods from China from other countries would plummet.

I liken this to getting a shot at the doctors. A quick plunge into your skin may hurt a lot, but a slow push and grind is much worse. Same if they are removing some tape from your skin and it rips off your hair. Right now we're ripping off the hair with no end in site. In fact, the area under the patch of tape is growing larger and larger by the day and without some plan, it will eventually cover our entire body for a life long slow pull.

Is all of this simply an intellectual excercise? It might be. Don't all solutions start that way? Right now we seem to simply be on autopilot being steered by vicious special interests who are cashing in on our present and future to enrich themselves while flipping us the bird and laughing to the bank with our quality of life, retirement funds, discretionary income and for many, our health and happiness.

Depression? You better believe it. Imagine having one without any possible recovery in sight. Imagine having to hand over our entire sovereignty to the Chinese and Arab countries that already hold us hostage over oil and will only continue to buy up our buildings, real estate and financial markets. Imagine when the bottom continues to fall on the value of the dollar to the point of no return? You know, where you have to take a wheel barrel of money to the store to buy bread. Search history.. it's happened before. The only solution at that time is an all out world war (see Germany). If you can't pay your creditors and you can't afford the resources you need, all that is left is to take them from others by force. As someone above said, it's definitely like the frog in the cookpot.. we're all slowly boiling to death but no one wants to exert the energy needed to jump out so instead we're just sitting and sitting while the heat goes up. I think it's time to rip the tape off, feel the brief pain, and let the wound heal completely in the open air instead of letting it fester underneath while we agonize.

But that's just my opinion... I could be right.

Brian


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I don't want to be a naysayer, and I will explain the steps I have taken later in this post, but I have to say that some people, myself included, could not afford an electric car. Brian, you say that the savings in fuel costs would equal out to the monthly payment, but in today's economy, I can't make a monthly payment.

I would be considered by some to have had a very successful career in broadcasting, but a few years ago, I found myself out of a job. I could have found something else in another area of the country, but my parents are older and my father's health is not very good, so I can't be too far away. After a year of unemployment, I finally took a job that pays less than half of my previous salary. Shortly thereafter, my wife lost her job. We are now living on approximately one third of our old income. I am driving a 14 year old minivan and I have 2 other vehicles that I can't afford to fix. we have cut out whatever expenses we can, but we have a chronically ill child. Even though she has insurance through the state, there is still a lot of out-of-pocket expense.

I'm not saying this so people will take pity on me. I know there are a LOT of people out there with circumstances much worse than mine. I just want to point out that any car payment is out of the question.

What I have done, is I recently became a member of the old fat guy on a scooter brigade. I just bought a 150 cc scooter that gets about 80 miles to the gallon. It isn't the answer to everything, but it beats paying $70.00 to fill up a gas tank.


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Originally Posted by KevinEdwardRose
What I have done, is I recently became a member of the old fat guy on a scooter brigade. I just bought a 150 cc scooter that gets about 80 miles to the gallon. It isn't the answer to everything, but it beats paying $70.00 to fill up a gas tank.


This is exactly what Brian is talking about. Since you couldn't afford the high cost of petrol, you have taken an alternate step that will make some of your travel cheaper. You are doing more than most people. I think Brian's point is that if the vast majority could not afford gas, then alternative energy vehicles would be mass-produced and be cheaper. Plus a government subsidy would help those who couldn't afford the initial purchase.

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Originally Posted by John Daubert
Side "note": Gold and Silver could be traded in the open market, which could help the overall economy and the strength of the dollar. ??? Is that right?


Gold and silver are already traded in the open market. The value of gold, silver and oil are exploding because the value of the dollar has gone down. Why: The FED is printing money like it is going out of style (INFLATION). Plus our trade deficit is killing us. Remember when Wal*Mart used to advertise "Made in America" -- that really wasn't that long ago.

Originally Posted by Brian
You know, where you have to take a wheel barrel of money to the store to buy bread. Search history.. it's happened before.
Might happen here if we don't save our food production capabilities and we don't somehow rebuild our manufacturing capabilities. I am for open trade, but our trade deficit will destroy us -- it is time for import controls and tariffs.

Originally Posted by Brian
It seems, as I suspected, that there's an element of fatalism out there that suggests that there's simply nothing we can do. That's never true.
"The time to fix the roof is when the sun is shining" The main problem is we need to fix the roof, but a huricane is raging outside. We have let it get to the state where "massive pain" is required in ANY solution.

Kevin


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Kevin,

I understand what you're saying. My concern is that gas will keep rising anyway.. and no solution will be available when inflation and gas and everything keep skyrocketing. If you can't make a payment, but you can buy the gas for your current vehicles, the cost of that gas each month may be more than the cost of getting an alternative vehicle.

There's no doubt that there's a segment of our population that will need extra support. But in truth, that's a smaller percentage of the population right now than it will be later. If 20% of the country can't afford to switch, then we help those 20% and by doing so, we help everyone at the same time by making the conversion complete. Right now there are people far worse off than you, and the $4 dollars might as well be $10. And there's no solution available for those folks coming. So do we do nothing until it's too late to do anything?

What if you had a good paying job that would properly use your skills to help with the new infrastructure and the programs needed to get all of this put into place? If you were making a decent wage, then wouldn't your problems be solved? It's not just manual labor that will be needed, but lots of marketing and educational support getting the word out and helping introduce a new way of life to a nation. I'd think there'd be plenty of work opportunities for you to use your skills at a salary that would allow you to not only get a car, but get back to living the way you used to.

Brian


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Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
The moment someone moved off the oil grid, their financial problems with the rising cost of gas would disappear. In the case of Scott for example, though 1 year of that would cost 20K in gas, if instead he spent that 20K to buy 2 electric cars, the next year that travel would cost 4K or less.


I'm not convinced of this, Brian. At 2006 prices, the average electricity cost for residential users was 10 cents per kW-hr. This translates to receiving 33000 BTU of energy per dollar. At $4 per gallon, you get about 28000 BTU per dollar of gasoline. Factor in that electricity prices have gone up since 06 and the two are probably comparable.

So if I have an electric vehicle, my gasoline bill goes to nothing but my electric bill goes up by the corresponding amount.

There is no good reason to buy electric vehicles while power plants are still using fossil fuels. You are still burning the same fuel - only in a different location. Only makes sense to me to buy an electric vehicle if the power plant is running off of nuclear or some other alternative energy source.

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The cost of hydrogen is $2 dollars per gallon gas equivelent. And that is without infrastructure and economy of scale. I saw a PBS special on it which is what prompted this set of ideas. The downside right now to Hydrogen is not production but the cost of the engines (or stacks as they call them). Those right now cost 40K. But the manufacturers (I think it was GM.. but I am not sure) said they plan to start selling them within 2 years for the 20-25K range for a comparable model to the current Prius. There will be cheaper models as well as more expensive. If they can create, with unprecendented government support, models for 10K (with subsidies for folks who need them) I think the plan could work. I haven't heard any plan from anyone that even begins to solve anything. If we use 100% of our Soybean and Corn production for nothing but ethanol, that is only 10% of what we need. And we'd all starve. Wind won't do it. Solar won't do it. Even if we max those out right now, it won't solve anything. BUT... getting 100% off of fuel powered cars and using it only for trucks and planes until solutions come around there (or perhaps they'll never really be needed) we CAN solve it.. and we can go back to using corn for food.

Is my idea going to be hard? Sure. So was WWII. But we geared up and our economy, even with the cost of war, exploded and only in the 70's did it really crash. It hasn't yet crashed this time, but it's headed there.. and this time it might be far more painful. Not to mention enviromental problems and national security. If Iran and Venezuela cut us off or hold us blackmail, we'll have to go into War where the entire world will lose. If you think the Iraq war is bad.. wait until gas becomes so scarce that the entire world is thrown into panic.

We've already waited too long for a painless shift.. it will only get more painful. But I am open to other ideas. What are yours?

Brian

Brian


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Quote
So do we do nothing until it's too late to do anything?


I hope not, but we have to start doing something today. Here is what I propose everyone can do today (based on what is written here in this thread).

1.) Start calculating exactly home much energy you consume every month (house electric and gas bill, and gas receipts). Figure out how to cut it by 20% (OK start off with 10%).
2.) Start buying locally grown food as much as possible. If you are lucky enough to live near a farmer's market -- great.
3.) Try to buy American made product as much as possible. I know this is tough. I want to (finally) buy a wide screen HD TV and there are no American products to be found (I think). By the way, a lot of Honda's and Toyota's count as American made.
4.) Figure out who to elect that can get stuff like this started. It probably will be someone who won't mind NOT getting re-elected.
5.) Recycle, reduce your garbage, hug your spouse and kids.

Kevin


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Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
The cost of hydrogen is $2 dollars per gallon gas equivelent. And that is without infrastructure and economy of scale. I saw a PBS special on it which is what prompted this set of ideas.

Brian


That's a good point. However, that's about what most experts think the real price of gasoline should be. The current price is artificially inflated. But I'm getting off track....

My main point is that energy is energy - you are going to pay for it one way or another.

I don't see hydrogen as a long term solution. To my knowledge, there isn't enough naturally occurring hydrogen to power us for long - not if everyone is using it. So if we want to use it on a massive scale, we will have to create it. Usually this is done by electrolysis of water. That requires energy though. smile

So if you are running a car off of hydrogen that has been produced by electricity, which has been produced by burning fossil fuels, what good will you have done?

In other words, we have to separate forms of energy into what we are using as a fundamental source versus those that are transformed sources that we are using merely for convenience.

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i like the premise,...the problem i see beyond the fantasy of getting a tax that high through the government (and transparently), are the fact that our entire economy is of goods and services is run by fuel...you need shoes, how do they get to market?...you want carpet, a truck brought the raw materials to the manufacturer, and delivered it to the dealer , who puts it on the installers truck to bring to your house and install it...food, well inflation is already hitting that market pretty significantly at $4 a gallon,etc.,etc.,etc....inflation would go through the top of the Sears Tower...i believe you have a good idea, but it will have to be a grass roots implemented program started by a Warren Buffett who has the money to invest to convert his town, then his surrounding counties, then the state, etc., once their is proof it will work and give a return on investment while helping us in all the other areas you mentioned, then private enterprise will kick in and follow the business model...Washington agreeing on something like this requires more vision than they can handle...send the idea to Warren Buffett...i read that somewhere in the neighborhood of 325,000,000 gallons per day is the US consumption rate...moker

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So rather than be a naysayer, let me throw my suggestion into the ring.

As I've already indicated, a short term strategy is conservation, which can be stimulated through tax breaks. This might keep us going until we can get an infrastructure developed for nuclear.

Nuclear is a mid-term solution. It will free us from OPEC but estimates suggest there is only enough for a few hundred years.

I said earlier that this might see us through until fusion comes on line - but even that is a resource that will expire.

What is the ultimate solution? The sun. We will last as long as it does. The technology is a problem but it's a technological problem. It can be solved. Bottom line is that if you want a long term strategy for developing a fundamental source of energy that is inexhaustible, the sun is the obvious choice.

I know - nothing is inexhaustible - but if the sun runs out, nothing matters anyway smile

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I don't think I'd call 200 years mid term in terms of society. The tech improvements over 200 years of humanity will be staggering and will contain things we can't even conceive of at this point. 10 more generations of scientists who grew up in the age of the internet and beyond should solve this problem. Many of the older scientists alive now predate Television.

We need to solve enviromental issues as well, if the global warming crowd's concerns have any legitimacy. Fortunately by getting off oil we solve that and will never have to find out who was right. And we'll breath much cleaner air and drink cleaner water and eat cleaner fish and other foods to boot.

We need a solution that works right now. Nuclear and Hydrogen and Electric cars are the answer that actually works already. The nuke plants will power the electrolysis for Hydrogen. Until they are up and running, we'll use coal. The amount of pollution from coal has decreased and will be made up for by the lack of cars using gas. We still have a lot of coal in the US.

Brian


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the cause, the reality, the solution... striber is right on.

http://www.unknowncountry.com/journal/?id=320

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Brian,

Interesting. You know it's too bad this wasn't an election year, and someone with radical new ideas didn't have an organization in all 50 states with people capable of quickly getting a new 3rd party candidate on the ballot in every state such as people like H Ross Perot, Ted Kennedy, and John Anderson did not needing to win in order to advance new ideas, but only to get the idea into the heads of a national electorate.

Wait -

it is an election year! And you are capable of just such an act. The "Just Plain Folks" national 3rd party was able to take its revolutionary case in 2008. Imagine the Road Trip Showcase!!

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It takes a LOT of money to even get on the ballot. We're still trying to raise the money for a new server! = )

I actually tested the water months and months ago suggesting we organize into a political org. but got mostly negative responses to the idea from everyone around here.

Brian


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I'd still like to build my own electric car. The only drawback is the life cycle of the batteries. It seems it is tough to get over 100 miles between charges. But from what I understand it only costs about 2 dollars to charge the batteries enough for 100 miles of driving.
You can build one for under $10,000, depending on the car you start with. A decent used car for under $2,000 is hard to find but they are out there.
All the components are available through retail outlets and there are plenty of sources for the plans.
You just need to live where you can keep your trips short, LOL.

My wife likes the idea too.
After the dust settles from our current real estate woes I am thinking of doing it.
Right now I just don't have the time and I couldn't use it to go back and forth to Tennessee anyway, LOL.


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the wind is a huge source for useful renewable energy that we have severely dragged our feet on developong it's potential...a couple of articles...
http://media.www.dailyillini.com/me....Growing.As.A.Power.Source-3362283.shtml
http://www.teriin.org/opet/articles/art6.htm

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I am actually considering getting a large wind propellar for power when I get some acreage where I can put one up. But it's far less practical for massive power needs. Wind farms and solar farms are much better in theory than they turn out to be in reality. And when there's no wind... or no sunshine, you have all new issues. Nuke power just keeps going and going. The greatest (and most predictable) irony is all those no nuke greenpeace types have done more damage to the world's environment over the last 30 years than anyone else by blocking Nuke power. Now many of them are realizing how much better using it would have been all these years. That's what happens when a lot of well intentioned but misinformed or misguided people use unreasonable scare tactics to get what they think we all need... often it turns out to be a horrible reality. Some of the extremist ideas to solve global warming are just as disastrous. I think my plan has 1 to 2 years of pain and the rest of our next 5 generations lives to greatly benefit from it. In WWII there was all sorts of rationing and people giving up extras to win the war. We need to do the same thing now.

Brian


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I noticed ya mentioned "Television" there, Amigo...

& Guess WHAT? Think it's Next Feb That DIGITAL TV becomes the Mandated "Norm" across the Nation.

My customer-chum, the head of Tampa's WEDU..told me the other day that it costs Broadcasters 1/4 MORE in Energy Costs to broadcast in Digital. So guess what THAT does for "Energy Saving" across the US. THEN..factor-in that EVERYBODY's New HD TV Set uses MORE Electricity than the Old Analogue Set did...& WHOOPIE...we're even FURTHER-Behind on Energy-Savings & Lower-Gas-Prices.

But..ya can see The Poorhouse in Much BETTER Definition! ;-)>

SO...Surprise...Ya gotta drive even LESS for Pleasure, just to Break-Even~

It's never TOO late for Rationing Gas Supplies. Yeah, everyone'll Bitch..but it's probably the EASIEST thing for The Government to Do..& COULD start up Next Week..IF we're really having the National Debacle everybody's convinced we're about to have. IF ya can only GET 20%-Less-Fuel, there goes the "Imported Oil Problem", overnight.

AND..IF the Speed Limits are REALLY Enforced...ya can probably save Another 20%..PLUS pick up a Bundle of Revenue from the Speedin' Tickets (Maybe tack on an EXTRA 10% fine for Speedin' SUV's & "Whales"...they deserve it.)

DO think the Fed Gov't oughta impose a Commodity Speculation Tax to perhaps keep the Speculators LESS-than-Interested in Wildly-Profiting on Oil Futures..& Coal..etc. Eliminating these Meddlemen MIGHT help a Wee-Bit...tho "Dramatic Savings" REALLY Won't Occur 'till the US changes its Driving Habits & Car Sizes.

JMO, again, natch!

Off to a Leisurely-Spin to the Day Job, (I bought a house only 3 minutes away from the Job Site...to save on gas..I'll add.)
Big Guy-Hug,
Stan

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Rationed gas would simply create a black market with criminal elements and even higher prices as people find creative ways to sell their ration cards. Raising the price has the same effect with actual benefits attached. Plus, rationing would just lead to oil companies raising the prices so they could make the same money on less sales.

Brian


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There are so many responses! I must confess to having not read them all yet (sorry).

Brian, you are a thinking man. I appreciate your sentiments and we are on the exact same page with regard to feul from corn/beans being dumb, dumb, dumb.

Now for my counterpoint wink

As someone who currently lives a forty-five minute drive from "civilization", this idea of $10 gas overnight freaks me out.

Yes, hubby's car is currently subsidized by his employer, but he SHARES in that cost. Guess what would go up overnight? HIS SHARE of the cost! Eek.

That is, if the company didn't just stop the company car policy altogether, or just fire a few guys to make up the difference.

Further, I am reluctant to put the government in charge of this. I don't like how the government runs things they are already in charge of.

Based on the way things get done now (from my perspective), this will just create a bunch of high paying jobs for people in suits who will think of eight million forms and reems of red tape to bungle the process. $4 of that $5 tax would go to "infrastructure".

My husband and I watched the documentary "who killed the electric car". Since, we have both agreed that electric cars were the way to go.

Hubby was watching one of his "man shows" about race cars and all that and saw electric testerosas that can do 0-60 in 3.2 seconds or something crazy like that. They have power enough to do "drifts". In other words, electric cars do not HAVE to be "low performeres".

The trouble is the cost, as you touched on. These electric babies sell for big bucks.

And I don't care how cheaply the "new cars" would be available.

Even if subsidizing gets them down to $500.

If you don't have $500, then they might as well cost $1,000,000.00.

Thus, the people who are just scraping by and are living paycheck to paycheck; folks who are driving their 84 "hoopdie" would be just plain sunk. They'd be unable to buy the "new technology" and yet unable to afford the gas at the new prices.

Not that you aren't on the right track...

Now off to read what I am sure is all my concerns addressed! :o


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this is very thought provoking

Last edited by MrsStash; 06/12/08 03:03 PM.

Jamie
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