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#610699 - 04/28/08 04:08 PM "If You Don't Love Jesus......."  
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Lily of the Valley Offline
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If You Don't Love JESUS......



You want to take him out of Christmas,
Like you could replace him anyway;
Cut down all the Christmas Trees,
And cancel Christmas day;
In taking Christ out of Christmas,
What would Christmas be?
If we threw away the greatest gift
ever given to you and me.


(CHORUS)

Enflaming yourselves with idols,
Underneath every green tree;
Don't we give gifts to show our love,
Then how much more would he?
I don't have to ask what he thinks of me,
I know him all too well;
Just give the honor and praise he deserves,
And if you don't love Jesus...
You're one step closer to hell.


Our Savior's birth brought good will to all,
Hope and peace upon this earth;
Sing with me O' Heavens,
Be joyful of a miracle birth;
Break forth into singing O' Hills and mountains,
To the King and Master of our universe;
As the majesty of thunder rings,
Rain and snow start to fall;
The trees in the fields shall clap their hands,
And sing unto the heavens MERRY CHRISTMAS to all.



Last edited by Lily of the Valley; 05/02/08 01:35 PM.
#611107 - 04/29/08 04:30 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Roberie [Re: Lily of the Valley]  
Joined: May 2001
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Hey Joyce,
A pretty good set of lyrics but a bit in your face at places. I would try to soften the lyrics just a bit as Artists seeking these type of songs may pass if the message is too "Earthy".



Ray E. Strode
#611470 - 04/30/08 09:04 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Roberie [Re: Lily of the Valley]  
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Joyce this is wicked man. I love it alot paints a lovely picture in my mind you can almost hear the melody.

Well Christianity requires being up in your face most of the time so... softening it to me is not necessary.

Keep it up.

#611594 - 05/01/08 05:31 AM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Roberie [Re: Stephen John (singch]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Ya Know,
I have re-thought this set of lyrics. This is a HOLIER THAN THOU piece thru and thru. Now a lot of people will be bullied by this song and even if they are turned off by it they will give it Lip Service. I passed that gate sometime back in 1952 or so. In fact I have been where you are going and back so many times I have lost count. If these lyrics are submitted to anyone seeking these type songs it will most likely be rejected. Good gospel music is OK but be sure it is appropirate. Writing good Gospel music is just as hard as any other music. Even harder as there is nothing new to write about.



Ray E. Strode
#611642 - 05/01/08 12:03 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Roberie [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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In some ways I agree with Ray, if a Christian song says what it means and means what it says, it may get passed over by politically correct "Christian artist", who are more concerned about not offending someone than preaching the gospel. A Christian song can be a three minute sermon and get the message across or it can skate around the subject and say nothing. The bible says that the gospel is an offence to those that are being lost, but it is a means of salvation for those that heed it.

To many churches also deliver sermons that are careful not to offend anyone, so the whole truth is not preached. If someone does preach it or say it, then they are "holier than thou", even to the point of spreading hate. It's time for Christians to stand up for their beliefs and preach the truth, if the world doesn't want to believe it, that is their loss.


The more you taste the bitterness of defeat, the sweeter final victory will be

May the flowers of love forever bloom in your garden of life

http://www.soundclick.com/newsflashsounds

http://www.soundclick.com/newsflashgospel

www.cdbaby.com/all/eca333

www.showcaseyourmusic.com/newsflashsounds
#611645 - 05/01/08 12:15 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Roberie [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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Just apply the three H's to this to see if it passes muster. Is it Honest? Does it have Humanity? Does it have hooks?

You could tell yourself that it is honest because you tell it like it is-) that if you don't love Jesus, you are going to Hell) but that isn't the kind of honesty I am talking about. The honesty I am referring to is that in which you have looked in your own heart, and have found something needing repair, which leads to the second requirement of a great song, humanity. Think of Johnny Cash singing "Sunday morning coming down". It is such a great song because it is a song about a man longing for redemption- not preaching it- and still it may be the best sermon in song ever written. Finally, the hook. You don't have one so there is little reason to keep reading or listening. While there are no "rules" per sec to songwriting, it is almost universally agreed among the best songwriters that you never never never preach. You show and demonstrate. And believe it or not Ray and I are trying to do you a favor. Hopefully, one day you will look at this lyric and say to your self, "What the hell was I thinking!"


"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
#611651 - 05/01/08 12:25 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Roberie [Re: Samuel Harris]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Folks,
I did not write this lyric. I would not write a lyric that was looking down on anyone and that I was above them. There is nothing about religion that I have missed, believe it or not.

Samuel, I think you got me mixed up with the actual writer of this lyric. Want to take another stab at it?


Ray E. Strode
#611666 - 05/01/08 01:04 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Roberie [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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I am an Atheist so these lyrics are full of all the things I disagree with in religion. The assumption that YOU are right and everybody else is wrong is always annoying to me. The assumption that if you do not believe in Jesus you are one step nearer to hell does not give any non Christian religions much credance. Who apart from you can say with any real confidence that they are wrong and you SO right. I admit that the Christmas message has been lost in amongst the tinsel and christmas presents but this song only alienates this extreme fire and brimstone point of view further.

#611679 - 05/01/08 02:44 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Roberie [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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There are some very "sold out for Jesus" and hard-core believers in what he did for us who DO NOT celebrate Christmas AT ALL.

Some base thier decision on the roots of the "holiday" and the history of the traditions associated with it.

It makes for fascinating reading, really.

Some other folks believe that celebrating the birth of Christ is not even biblical. Only pharos and other "pagans" celebrated "birth days" back in the day. (or something like that lol)

Some other folks just think there is no reason to "love Jesus" extra-especially more on any one particular day, taking to heart that scripture that says something like 'esteem not one day above another'.

In other words, I would hardly say that someone who does not celebrate Christmas automatically is someone who does not love Jesus.

Celebrating Christmas and loving Jesus are two different things.

However, you are free to believe what you will.

(For the record I am a born-again Christian)


Jamie
"Mrs. Stash Hershberger"
#611690 - 05/01/08 03:06 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Roberie [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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Samuel Harris Offline
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Originally Posted by Ray E. Strode

Samuel, I think you got me mixed up with the actual writer of this lyric. Want to take another stab at it?


Sorry Ray, but I don't know what you are talking about. I assume Joyce Asher Roberie wrote the lyric. Where did I say you wrote it? I thought you said it was "Holier than thou" and that is the way it came across to me. I think we are in agreement about the lyric.


"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
#611699 - 05/01/08 03:43 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Roberie [Re: Samuel Harris]  
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First to Sam and Ray: I think Ray read "believe it or not Ray and I are trying to do you a favor" and thought Sam meant "Believe it or not, Ray, I am trying to do you a favor". So there you go guys! ;-)

Now to Joyce: Thank you for sharing your lyric. The rhyme and structure is pretty good. As others have already said, however, I feel it is preachy. I wrote a song about Christ and Christmas a couple years ago and it was kind of similar but the point of the story was that I was sad about how people had commercialized Christmas and that I wanted Jesus to know I still cared about His birth. So if you're looking for suggestions, I would suggest changing the focus to be about how all the things you talked about make you sad, or whatever.

I think you feel this is an important message, so don't get discouraged! But think carefully about WHY you want to tell this story and what you want people to feel when they hear it.

#611709 - 05/01/08 04:10 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus....... [Re: Samuel Harris]  
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Dear Mr. Harris,
How are you today? I just read your reply; I must say I love a good debate. I thought I had said it about as clear as I could get. When I first wrote my song, it was---If you don't love Jesus, you can just go....you know the rest. Someone suggested that I change it so it wouldn't be too offensive; I did....but I didn't to. It would have sounded better the other way and while being politically correct...true. I'm not holier than thou; but, I am a true believer with all my heart and soul. I hope I don't get the boot for saying so. It really gets my goat when around that time year when all of a sudden someone just got offended because someone said Merry Christmas; or, Someone else refered to that green pointed tree as a Christmas tree. What? Really. I don't think so! Then I'm Offended.

Warm Regards

Last edited by Lily of the Valley; 05/02/08 02:14 PM.
#611770 - 05/01/08 09:33 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Robe [Re: Lily of the Valley]  
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Ms. Roberie,

Just out of curiosity, who exactly was it that told you you could not say the word Christ?

#611777 - 05/01/08 10:03 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." DELETED* [Re: TrumanCoyote]  
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Post deleted by Lily of the Valley

Last edited by Lily of the Valley; 05/02/08 02:40 PM.
#611783 - 05/01/08 10:34 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Robe [Re: Lily of the Valley]  
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Joice, I think a song called "If you don't believe in Jesus, you can go to Hell" is a great idea for a song! Then you could do it entirely tounge-in-cheek and it would be a hoot. But if you do with the approach you used in the present lyric, it would just be offensive instead of offensive AND funny.


"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
#611787 - 05/01/08 10:59 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus....... [Re: Samuel Harris]  
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Mr. Harris,
I think you are absolutely right; I probably should have used believe. The idea "If you don't love Jesus" came from some crazy person that I used to watch on TV that kept saying, "You know what happens if you don't love Jesus". Thanks for your help!

Last edited by Lily of the Valley; 05/02/08 02:52 PM.
#611788 - 05/01/08 10:59 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus....... [Re: Samuel Harris]  
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Mr. Harris,
I think you are absolutely right; I probably should have used believe. The idea "If you don't love Jesus" came from some crazy person that I used to watch on TV that kept saying, "You know what happens if you don't love Jesus". Thanks for your help!

Last edited by Lily of the Valley; 05/02/08 05:18 PM.
#611795 - 05/01/08 11:28 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Robe [Re: Lily of the Valley]  
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I like the singing, clapping trees! smile Ents!

Seriously, taking Christ out of Christmas is silly. Conversely, it's also silly how some people have recently begun to regard "X-mas" as anti-Christian... I remember discussing this topic last winter, and we discovered the X stood for Christ in centuries past...and it was also easier to typeset. Off topic, sorry. But I do think it is stupid to always make rules in favor of Offended People...the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Those who are most annoyed usually win.

I agree this song gets a bit preachy, but that's its purpose. Still, a little honey would attract more converts. From a writer's point of view, maybe take a look at the different tones you took in each verse, and maybe unite that "voice". The first verse is very normally conversational...it evolves and becomes more "preacherly" in the second verse, and by the third verse, it is using Old Testament prose, complete with the word "O", and those fantastic singing trees. We generally don't talk that way, and in the first verse you don't either. So it might work better in any one of those modes.

It might be a good exercise to write a couple different songs about this topic. This one is addressed directly to those taking Christ out of Christmas. It would be interesting to read one from a more personal, contemplative viewpoint, too.

Thanks for sharing this one.

-Mark

#611799 - 05/02/08 12:10 AM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Robe [Re: Lily of the Valley]  
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Originally Posted by Joyce Asher Roberie
Mr. Coyote,
If you've noticed about 95% of the greeting cards that people usually send out around Christmas no longer say "Merry Christmas"; It's Happy Holidays! Just this past year, I watched on CNN where a tree was actually removed not because it was a tree but because it is refered to as a CHRISTmas tree. Most people are offended when they see or hear the word Christ. I'm not! I happen to be offended when I can't see or hear it.
Sincerely,
Joyce Roberie


So I guess your answer is that nobody ever told you you could not say Christ. Your earlier post implied that had happened.

#611829 - 05/02/08 02:19 AM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus....*DELETED* [Re: TrumanCoyote]  
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Last edited by Lily of the Valley; 05/02/08 02:50 PM.
#611841 - 05/02/08 03:44 AM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Robe [Re: Lily of the Valley]  
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I don't see how brainwashed christians can believe there is a "hell"
This apparent "hell" is run by satan, correct? So you're saying God will send you
to his worst enemy, (being satan, down in hell) Does this not make any sense to anybody else?
I thought god and satan were enemies, now they're in business together?

Last edited by airun; 05/02/08 03:49 AM.
#611849 - 05/02/08 04:26 AM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Robe [Re: Aaron Authier]  
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Hi airun!

I don't want to get into major theological discussion here, but I do want to say that I do NOT believe in Satan "running Hell".

In other words, those cartoon pictures of a pointy-tailed red nymph poking folks in the tushy with a pitchfork whilst boiling them in a pot of water? Not at all what I believe goes down.

And I am about as "brainwashed" as they get lol.

(Although, admittedly, I prefer the term "soulwashed" wink )



Jamie
"Mrs. Stash Hershberger"
#611911 - 05/02/08 12:19 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Robe [Re: MrsStash]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Brunswick, Ga. USA
Folks,
This is about a song lyric and a request for a critique. Did I get that right? If someone wants to write a song that is a bit brazen and wants to pitch it who am I to argue. I critiqued it and gave some suggestions. No one needs to follow them. The buying public will be the final judge on a song if it becomes avaliable for the public to purchase. Go write a hit!


Ray E. Strode
#611923 - 05/02/08 12:47 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Robe [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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Ray,

This is why I almost NEVER comment on any posted lyric/song whose main theme is religion, politics or social issues. In very little time, the discussion invariably becomes a point-counterpoint about the issues and the critique/evaluation of the song or lyric is quickly lost in all the opinionated barbs. I can watch TV on Sunday mornings, should I choose to (usually don't) to get all the religious, political and philosophical spin I want.

I agree with ya...just critique the danged song, let the author believe what he/she wants and you continue to believe what you want. Almost never will either party have their mind changed.

Al

#611929 - 05/02/08 12:55 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Robe [Re: Aaron Authier]  
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Everett Adams Online content
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Originally Posted by airun
I don't see how brainwashed christians can believe there is a "hell"
This apparent "hell" is run by satan, correct? So you're saying God will send you
to his worst enemy, (being satan, down in hell) Does this not make any sense to anybody else?
I thought god and satan were enemies, now they're in business together?


Do you know(of course you don't) that hell is mentioned in the bible more than heaven. God does not want you or anyone to go to hell, hell is prepared for Satan and his followers, if you decide to follow Satan and reject the gift of eternal live in heaven, you send yourself to hell. There is only two places to go after you die, you are given free will to make that choice. You choose to follow and accept Jesus as your saviour or you reject to follow Him, in doing so, you automatically choose the alternative. There is no neutral ground, "you are for me or against me", Jesus said.

As for outlawing the word Jesus, maybe not, as this is a common name in some parts of the world. Besides, how would some people express themselves, especially when they are angry. But Jesus did say, "when I return, will I find faith". The only faith some people have is in themselves and their money, power and position in life. Many take the attitude, I don't need God, I am my own God.

#611937 - 05/02/08 01:07 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Robe [Re: Everett Adams]  
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As I see it any civilised society is founded on freedom, mutual respect and tolernace. I do not believe in God or Jesus however even Jesus preached mutual respect and tolerance. Whether people are religious or not we all should preach that message.

#613195 - 05/06/08 05:03 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Robe [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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I find this disheartening. It is one thing to proclaim one's belief, and I am sure you have good reasons for doing so. It is another to sing about how non-Christians are bound for hell. We needn't agree on this question, and I have friends who feel very differently about this question than I do. But I wouldn't if I wrote songs like this. This seems unnecessarily hurtful and divisive. Just my opinion.

#613295 - 05/06/08 09:52 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." [Re: Lily of the Valley]  
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Originally Posted by Lily of the Valley


If You Don't Love JESUS......



You want to take him out of Christmas,
Like you could replace him anyway;
Cut down all the Christmas Trees,
And cancel Christmas day;
In taking Christ out of Christmas,
What would Christmas be?
If we threw away the greatest gift
ever given to you and me.


(CHORUS)

Enflaming yourselves with idols,
Underneath every green tree;
Don't we give gifts to show our love,
Then how much more would he?
I don't have to ask what he thinks of me,
I know him all too well;
Just give the honor and praise he deserves,
And if you don't love Jesus...
You're one step closer to hell.


Our Savior's birth brought good will to all,
Hope and peace upon this earth;
Sing with me O' Heavens,
Be joyful of a miracle birth;
Break forth into singing O' Hills and mountains,
To the King and Master of our universe;
As the majesty of thunder rings,
Rain and snow start to fall;
The trees in the fields shall clap their hands,
And sing unto the heavens MERRY CHRISTMAS to all.




OK. I am gonna have to do a Simon Cowell here. This is a flat out terrible lyric. Please don't take offense by this. It has nothing to do with your writing ability and everything to do with your sentiment.

Absolutely nobody in their right mind would ever want to record this. Calling people idiots in a song is a death blow to it's marketability. I realize that there are lots of lyrics out there that are hits that share a lot of the hostility of your message. For example, 'American Idiot', by Green Day. But I take equal issue with those artists.

I assume you are probably familiar with the Contemporary Christian market and I am sure you remember Keith Green, who is regarded as a legend today. A lot of his stuff, which was aimed specifically at the church, was and still is, VERY controversial (e.g., Asleep in the Light, To Obey is better than Sacrifice). He took a lot of heat for these songs, but even he never called people idiots in his music.

BTW, as I am sure you are aware, there are a lot of fundamentalists out there who think it is a sing to celebrate Christmas at all since it supposedly has pagan roots. I always try to tell such people that the history doesn't matter today and that nobody is worshiping the Germanic God 'Woden' just because they put up a Christmas tree, but I can never seem to convince them.

Also, you posted this in the wrong forum.


Fisherman hook fish; songwriters fish for hooks

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#613310 - 05/06/08 10:40 PM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." [Re: Ralph Blight]  
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This whole thing about God and Hell is very interesting. I think George Carlin best sums the problem up as follows:

Originally Posted by "George Carlin"
Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you.

http://www.rense.com/general69/obj.htm


To defend Lily somewhat, it is important to note that in fundamentalist circles, it is considered a Christian's duty to evangelize to the lost and to WARN them about eternity without God. A lot of Contemporary Christian songs do that. For example,the classic 'Time' by Phil Keaggy.

Originally Posted by "Phil Keaggy"
Most people think he'll never stop
But go on perpetually
But old man Tim is running out
And he'll cease eventually.

And when the Lord stops him
That'll be it
Too late for apologies
Too late to forgive your brother
Too late to get on your knees
When the Lord stops him
That'll be it
Too late to help the needy
And worst of all too late to turn
You must face eternity


Note, however, that the lyrics of this song are not as hostile to the listener. If you come at someone with too much of a holier than thou attitude, you will turn them off, immediately. I don't see why more Christians don't understand this.



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#613344 - 05/07/08 01:02 AM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: [Re: dspence]  
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.....And I appreciate your opinion. Thanks for reading it. I'm sorry you didn't like it. Sincerely,

Last edited by Lily of the Valley; 05/12/08 11:57 PM.
#613420 - 05/07/08 07:58 AM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Robe [Re: Lily of the Valley]  
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Originally Posted by Lily of the Valley
.....And I appreciate your opinion. Thanks for reading it. I'm sorry you didn't like it. Sincerely,


That really wasn't the point I was trying to make. My main point was that you can't just go around thumbing people over the head with your bible and expect a revival. I hope that makes SOME sense to you. To be completely honest, I also believe in Hell and I believe that there are some people who are so evil and wicked that they will end up there one day. I have written songs similar what you have here but the message is much more subtly presented and makes a much bigger impact, IMHO.

Here are the lyrics from a song I wrote called 'fire', which presents the same general idea without mentioning Jesus or the bible or the ten commandments.

Quote
Fire

Fallen Angel, fall into my dreams
I can't see the things that you have seen
Did you fall like lightening from the sky?
Will you ever know the reasons why?

Now that I'm on fire
Your temptation fanned the flames of my desire
I am burning on my cross while you conspire
With unholy men, degenerates, and liars
Am I damned to share the fate of your empire?

Fallen Angel, step into my light
I can't see the shadows of your night
Eat with me this flesh that I have bred
Drink with me this wine that I have bled

Now that I'm on fire
Your temptation fanned the flames of my desire
I am burning on my cross while you conspire
With unholy men, degenerates, and liars
Am I damned to share the fate of your empire?

Father, no
There's nothing I can tell you; I don't know
I just don't know
I never meant to hurt you and I know
Oh, yes, I know
The day has come and now I have to go
Before your white throne
The devil's on fire but I never thought I'd have to watch him burn
The devil's on fire but I never thought I'd have to watch him burn
The devil's on fire but I never thought I'd have to watch him burn
The devil's on fire but I never thought I'd have to watch him burn
He told me once he'd never burn
He told me twice he'd never burn
He told me thrice he'd never
Lie (whispered)



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#613433 - 05/07/08 09:20 AM Re: "If You Don't Love Jesus......." written by: Joyce Asher Robe [Re: Ralph Blight]  
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Oh! Never mind.

All the best,
Jamie

Last edited by MrsStash; 05/07/08 09:46 AM.

Jamie
"Mrs. Stash Hershberger"

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