JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum 2008 American Idol SongWriter

I think the 2 best Rock edged songs are Perry's and Aaron Sidwell's songs. Both have plusses and minuses. Aaron's has the advantage with better production and is probably the best recording of any of the Top 20. I'd rather see David Cook win than David Archuletta and that will likely require a rock song should those two go head to head in the final. Most agreed that the final song performance last year made it clear who deserved to win. There are other good songs, but they're R&B, Pop, Contemporary, Country, etc and not rock (well, one other is, but I find it to be the weakest song in the running). So of the two equal songs in the Rock style, I hope Perry wins. For me, that would be the best outcome in the context of this show. Now, it's quite possible neither song will do well as AI has always been a Pop/R&B showcase for the most part. I'd prefer to see a Rock song and a Rock artist for a change.

Brian

I thought it was pretty funny when I read where someone said your song wasn't what AI is looking for before they announced the Top 20. That had to be a "doh!" moment for him.

Brian

I wish Canadian idol has a songwriting competition this summer
American Idols the only show to have one so far right

I smiled when I saw that because I knew my song was not typical and I thought THAT might just get it through. Let's be honest, here, if you put my lyric to a Celine kind of track, it would have never made it through. I think it was the rock feel and the rock voice that brought it through. So I don't blame anyone for thinking it was not an "AI" kind of song, but I thought it could be because it WAS different sounding. I remember telling my wife about that comment and telling her that it actually made me feel like I had a better chance because it stood out from the others.

I've heard some fantastic, idol type songs that didn't get picked in the top 20 and some how did that get through type songs that made it through so it was anyones ball game

Just as suspected, once again some of the songwriters have had big connections to the music biz for quite some time. We can expect this to always be a PRO game. I snatched this tidbit from Regie Hamms page. I recognized his name right away. Read below.

Regie's music and songwriting are clearly the work of a keen observer of the world who has something to say about it. Combining the beauty, irony, and sometimes even harshness of life, Regie's work has a cinematic quality that leaves the listener with the feeling of an experience they will not soon forget. His critically acclaimed debut solo album, American Dreams (Universal South/Refugee), yielded the Billboard top 15 AC hit "Babies."

As a songwriter, Regie has enjoyed more than 400 cuts -- over 20 of them number one hits -- and he was honored as the "SESAC Songwriter of the Year" in 1995, 1996, 1997 and 2000. He has multiple Grammy and Dove Award nominations as both a producer and writer. He currently writes with, produces and plays in the band "Smokey Lonesome". Their debut record is soon to be released. He continues to play solo dates and is working in the studio on a new solo record.


You see...he has been nominated for GRAMMY'S and DOVE'S. Pretty major stuff. I have come to SERIOUSLY realize and lets get this clear people. THE SONGWRITING PORTION OF AMERICAN IDOL if CLEARY DIFFERENT than the SINGING PORTION OF AMERICAN IDOL. American Idol is looking for undiscovered talent vocal wise. BUT if you are a songwriter you have a BETTER SHOT having some GRAMMY and DOVE nominations. It is NOT a Fair competition when it comes to finding UNDISCOVERED talent. I will NEVER change my mind about that. I call it like I see it. Yes, perhaps a few unknowns got a break and got in there, and to be honest I pray to GOD one of you wins it!! Go all the way with it and prove to us indies that you can do it! Break the code!! Please!! Show me it can be done! I am with you all the way!

Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com
www.myspace.com/tammyedwards2

Tammy.
Last year I really felt there might be two separate piles for the entries. But I was probably wrong. Who knows?

This year, I dunno. If anything AI was surely aware of the discontent from last year.
I would also suggest that this year there were many songs that were worked on since last year. Giving them a full year to develop the song.
I would also think there were more entries than last year.
The short time allowed for this is what I don't get. I figure it is how they limited the sheer volume.
I would be willing to bet they received five hundred songs that were just as good as the twenty that got picked. Maybe some that were better.
How did they finally pick those twenty? Who knows? My guess they narrowed it down to a couple hundred then just picked twenty from a pile. If you were lucky you got picked if not you didn't.
The other option is they actually did sit and listen to every single song after they eliminated the ones that were obviously not what they were looking for. (which I believe would be a fairly easy thing to do. A few seconds into many songs would get them tossed aside).
If one of the people who post here got into that pile I say HOORAY for them. I hope they win it.
Their song was good enough to get them that far. They deserve a shot.
I didn't enter because I did not have anything that fit what they want.

I was never under the impression that they were looking for the best undiscovered songwriter, only the best SONG.

I heard there were 48,000 songs this year. I don't know if that's true, but I did hear that.

Tammy

THE SONGWRITING PORTION OF AMERICAN IDOL isn't CLEARY DIFFERENT than the SINGING PORTION OF AMERICAN IDOL.
the singers have all had success
AI is looking for unsigned talent.
AI is looking for available songs

They aren't looking at finding UNDISCOVERED talent. They are looking for currently available talent.

indies can do it!

I also hope an indie gets the break....it would certainly send out the right message.....and a reference to a previous post by Brian...it was me who said to Perry "i don't think your song is what AI is looking for,but a very good song nonetheless"...next day he is in the top 20...shows what i know about this business..so it does show they have widened the parameters at least ...songwise...but will it get widened further to include an indie winner?...time will tell...good luck to all the songwriters who are waiting on the phone call.....Terry..

Post deleted by TAMERA64

Hey Tammy,
While I totally agree that there are so many wonderful artists out there who are way over 30, I can also say that from a business standpoint, it's a different view. If I were going to spend a million dollars or so to break someone's career, (and that's about what it takes,) I think I'd rather do it with someone who has a very long shelf life so I can make my money back more times over. That's most likely the reason for the younger age.

As far as the songwriters go, Perry is living proof that someone who has not written for very long can get in the top 20. From there, it's up to the public.

This business is mostly who you know and from there, it's a crap shoot. I've been in some sort of the music biz as a living for about 30 years but haven't found a way to crash that glass ceiling yet. But, I keep finding a way to earn my living doing something in the biz and that's a blessing in itself.

Anyone with talent is blessed with a gift. We just all need to find our niche. I'm still looking...

I remember a time when a friend of mine auditioned a young country singer for her production show here in Las Vegas. The girl had a great voice but did not have the look that the producer wanted. So, she passed on LeAnne Rimes.

It made me realize that just because what you have isn't chosen by someone else, it doesn't mean it wasn't wonderful. I've also seen the reverse where the person cast for a show here was not very good at all. It's all in the eye or the ear of the beholder.

There's got to be more than one way to skin a cat and I've got 87 tools in my hand at all times! LOL! Boy, this ol' gal can take a lickin' and still keep on tickin'!

Heidi

I don't think it should matter if an amateur or a professional songwriters song was chosen for the finale

I think you guys missed the point, They are looking for the song that best fits the WINNER,Whether that comes from an amateur songwriter or a professional

This isn't a songwriting contest looking for the best written and produced songs as much as American Idol is a contest for the best singer

Which doesn't always mean the best singer or song gets chosen but they will be the right one

They're looking for a singer as well as a song that will fit the winning combination and thus making them millions of dollars
Do you really think they care if it's a pro or a beginner or even a struggling writer thats been trying to break through for years?

At least half the top 20 are JPF members. Several of them I know personally and they're not remotely insiders. Perry Smith here on our message board just started writing songs in November. How is HE an insider?

Over and over we've talked, including BEFORE any of you entered, that it was open to anyone.. not just "begginers." Most of the AI singers have had significant professional experience. Many have already had record deals. I'd say the fact that Perry got one of the Top 20 slots suggests it's far more likely an amateur will get a slot in the song portion than make it onto the TV show.

If you want to compete with amateurs only, then enter some of the amateur only song contests where everyone sucks. Then when you win you can feel important that you beat a bunch of people who don't even know how to write a decent song. Whoopee!

Brian

If you want to compete with amateurs only, then enter some of the amateur only song contests where everyone sucks.
Then when you win you can feel important that you beat a bunch of people who don't even know how to write a decent song. Whoopee!

Brian are you implying that every amateur songwriter has no talent
because they are just an amateur?

At the risk of upsetting the cliche police, "it is an honor to be nominated" and I can't really worry about the rest. No, really, I have 400 claims to prove by next Friday (my day job--employment lawyer) and I have decided I cannot worry about this, but should simply be grateful for the cool opportunity. I am doing what I can to keep people interested and hopefully garner some support, but my clients and the judge's don't seem to understand that I need a few weeks off to worry about this American Idol thing!!!!!

There is some speculation in other places that since the AI page simply says that the audience can "help" pick a winning song, that ultimately AI may not go with the song with the most votes. I suppose that is possible, but somehow it did not dawn on me.

Perry

No one was taking your honour away Perry, Of course It'd be an honour to just be nominated, now that I know you're a lawyer...eh nevermind lol

I must take issue with your last paragraph saying that ALL amateur songwriters suck. I have gotten into trouble generalising that a lot of the current pop stars and AI finalists suck.

The only difference between a lot of amateur songwriters and singers and there professional counterparts are earnings not talent. I have heard some pro songs that suck and some amateur songs that are great and the same with performers. I judge each and every song and singer on merit not on earnings. To do any different is plain stupid and disrespectful.

I didn't mean to imply that anyone was taking my honor away(actually don't think I did imply that). But thanks for skipping whatever "lawyer" comment might have been coming.

Post deleted by TAMERA64

If someone is so worried they might lose to a good song that they want to be sure that no one who has ever sold a CD, performed out live a single time for money or done anything else successful with their music is even allowed to participate, I suggest they have no right to have their feelings hurt about the quality of their music. By definition you're a hobbyist ONLY... and not only that, you're proving you want recognition, but not if you actually have to compete with people who are professionally competent.

It's like saying you won the Super Bowl, but no one who has ever played High School, College or Pro Football was allowed to participate. Amateur ONLY means that no one such as Tammy Edwards would be allowed to enter because she is a PROFESSIONAL whether she likes it or not. Once you make a single PENNY off your music in ANY way, you are a PRO. That also means Jim would ALSO not ever be allowed to enter, nor could the majority of anyone connected to JPF who has ever recorded a CD or done a live gig where commerce takes place. So yes, if you want to enter a contest where the people with talent, ability, success, or desire to ever find it are not allowed, I suggest that you want to compete with substandard talent. I assure you the quality of "Amateur" only contests sucks badly compared to those who allow people with CD's for sale and who do gigs or write for other artists to compete.

And gosh.. what a shock.. someone who is a Pro can write a bad song? Thanks for that brilliant revelation Tammy. The reality is that most writers of any level mostly write songs that aren't very good. Ask Diane Warren who is the first to admit most of her songs simply don't cut it. But people don't usually enter their worst work into a contest, they enter their best. There aren't many Professionals who get paid for their work who haven't done anything worthwhile. Your analogy isn't legit.

100% of the AI singing contestants this year have gotten paid for performing and/or had record deals, album sales, high profile Television success and so on. So they are all, by definition, pro's as well.

As for the Amateur "only" contests? I've been a judge on quite a few. And even the winning song sucked badly. It's sort of like saying your song is #1 on the radio, but that's only because no one is allowed to listen to the station in case they might not like what you're doing. Amateur only contests are money making schemes that prey on people desperate for a short cut to success who think by paying a fee AND not allowing any real competition, they might somehow get recognition for music that otherise couldn't compete. Once again I say "Whoopee!"

Indies are NOT Amateurs. Life long hobbyists are Amateurs. But to hear some of you talk, you can't tell the difference. Sad.

Brian

I agree with you Brian now that you explained it better

I guess I'd have to agree with you also Brian.
But I have a problem. I have observed that there are two kinds of writers in this world.
Writers who make money and writers who don't.
Unfortunately there are a lot more writers who don't make money than they are writers who do.
By making money I don't mean the few bucks we make on our self produced CD's where 950 of the 1000 we ordered are sitting in a box in the basement 3 years later.
The fact that 50 sold does NOT make you a professional.

I sat in a room with 75 other professionals last night. Getting our songs listened to by a Publisher that has the number two song on the charts today.
Why were we professional's there? We were there trying to get that all elusive cut by a major Artist.
By the end of the night we were all reduced back to amateurs. None of our songs were picked, we were not good enough.
On the way home that number two song came on the radio.
"I Saw God Today" sung by George Strait...Wow...I wish I had written that.
That is the only songwriting contest I am interested in.

I'm curious if any writers are over 40. They asked for your DOB when registering. I found that odd, but then again market research may enter in here. Most of the writers appear to be young. Just wondering if there was some kind of filter to prohibit entries after certain birth years. This has nothing to do w/the talent of those selected. Actually think this yr yielded a few really good tunes. At least they were melodic - a rarity these days.

Post deleted by Perry Smith

Perry,

I think staying off the boards might be a good idea until the dust settles! However, don't be put off by the "dragging down of the winners" syndrome. It happens everywhere, every time in all sorts of competition and life experiences (and most of the time the dragger-downers don't really mean any harm). The fact that you are in the top 20 amazes and astounds me -- not because you are relatively new to songwriting, but because you were able to do it against great odds.

Am I envious? -- absolutely (LOL!). Did I enter the AI contest? -- no, I didn't really anything that I thought could compete. I think the vast majority of folks here are wishing you well. My opinion is to try and enjoy the ride, knowing full well that the next few weeks will be pressure packed.

Your song was picked by industry professionals with a lot at stake to be a top 20 song -- that is an incredible accomplishment. My hat's off to you.

Kevin

Sorry that you've been insulted here Perry!! I am sooo disappointed in the behavior of some members!! Count me out of here.

Hey Perry,
Being a lawyer, I'm certain you've had your share of people airing out their frustrations. You must also realize that they are not personal, even though it feels that way.

It's just that when people work hard for years toward a goal that another person reaches with ease and in short time, it can be reason enough to kick in any past failures or frustrations they might have in many areas.

So, don't back away my friend and don't take any negative thing anyone says personally. You have risen to the top of a songwriting contest and it just might also be an opportunity to rise to the understanding of why others react negatively toward that success.

Withdrawing communication never produces anything but silence and a shrinking of space and reach. Accomplishing what you have done is not deserving of your withdrawal but of your extended reach further outward by communicating your experience along the way.

That is my humble opinion and I encourage you to hold your position of "nice guy who got in the top 20" no matter what false picture gets painted of you.

Blessings,
Heidi

I still can't believe real professional songwriters wrote the "lyrics" to most of the top 20 songs,It looks like they've been writing songs for half a year, and we're supposed to settle for that, when we're gonna be spending money on their cd?

Look. Let's be honest here (as I have been trying to be since I got here). The AI contest is a lottery--sooooooooo many entries, so short a period of time to narrow the songs, etc. Someone I know put it well-- you are holding a lottery ticket by joining. If you have a good production, you are holding a few more lottery tickets. If you have a "different" sound, you are holding a few more. If you wrote well to the target, you have a few more. But in the end, there is more luck than skill involved. I am not at all bothered by this rather obvious fact. Were there far better songs than mine that were not picked? Absolutely! Many, many, many of them, I have no doubt! I am an amateur songwriter, who got really, really lucky after doing what I could to try to hit the target. I am not unrealstic about this. And I am not unrealistic about the fact that when it is over, I will go back into my small music room/home office and see if I can figure out how to play that F chord better on my guitar to open up some more chord progressions. (And I will keep working long hours at my day job so I can continue my hobby of writing.)

I think I will hang back a bit, but I will be around.

Perry

Perry,

Seems like a good attitude to me. Writing to "hit a target" sounds pretty tough. I think to succeed at that you have to remove some of the songwriter ego that can get in the way. The fact that you were able to do this so quickly in your writing career just means that you probably have an innate sense of what works in the musical marketplace. I think that this could be a relatively rare gift. Good luck in the contest.

Kevin

Hey Perry,

I was going to stay out of the fray, but I just had to chime in with Kevin.

I think sitting back and trying to enjoy this part of the ride might be good idea. While I suppose there's probably a little "campaigning" you'll want/need to do, I suspect your nerves are hugely frazzled right now, and until The Call does/doesn't come in, you're likely going to drive yourself nuts by checking all the AI song threads posted here and on the other boards.

I do understand Heidi's point about not walking away....but I don't think that was Kevin's (nor my) intent. As I mentioned in my PM to you, I had thought it might be a good idea to take a little breather now anyway, explaining that once the winner is contacted, he/she will likely be under a huge gag order, and you don't want your fellow JPF'ers to be disappointed/encouraged if we didn't hear from you suddenly .

While I think that you've done a valiant job rising above the "sour grapes" so far, I say that's an energy zapper you don't need right now. Enjoy yourself. Smoke a cigar. Leave work early. Call that cheerleader who wouldn't go out with you because you were only a freshman. This is a very highly-charged window of excitement and anticipation, and one way or the other, it's not going to last much longer.

But as I think everyone can agree, whatever "flavor one's grapes are", you should be very proud of yourself. GOOD LUCK!!

Ciao for now,
Beth

I've been trying for a month to write a chorus for an idol coronation song and I came up with something not even close to an idol coronation chorus, I guess Kevin is right, some people need to lose most of their lyrical artistry and imagination in order to write a song in that style

Here is a link to all of the idol top 20 songs and comments under
In which not many are being praised mind you
http://www.rickey.org/?p=7627

Is that what I said? However if you feel that you must lose your "lyrical artistry and imagination in order to write a song in that style", then I would suggest staying away from that style. It sounds too painful.

Kevin

Yes It sounds very painful

Case in point, here's the first half of the chorus to
You can do anything:

You can do anything you dream of
Go for the goal if you believE LOL (the LOL should've been part of the song)
You can find your own star
Reach any height
Like sun on the water
Be a diamond? you'll fight- it wasn't very clear as to what that was
You can do anything you dream of
You can do anything now

Not to mention the song sounds like its a fricking 80's ballad
And this song is a top 20?

Then there's a fricking choir at the end
HELLO RUBEN STUDDARD WAS SEASON TWO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for Believe why the hell is there a male R&B song that sounds like Frankie J would sing, do we have any R&B'ers?
No I don't think we do, ugh I do not get these songs
Can anyone explain this madness, there's no way I believe that lottery crap, they already know what song is going to win
We're all being ryan seacrested

Hey Perry, this one's for you:



Shame on us. You've been nothing but decent on this forum. You wrote a great song that most of us couldn't put on the table if our lives depended on it. And you just achieved something many of us tried to do, but couldn't. You deserve our support and positive thoughts. I for one am cheering you on...you've given me a reason to get excited about it this year, and you've also given me reason to believe this can be done.

And you're just another working stiff like us, so the pressure must be intense...the WONDERING, the HOPE...the not sleeping. Must be a real thrill to read these threads and get knocked down a peg or two. Well, that's humanity for you. I'd stop posting for awhile too.

Perry, GO GET 'EM. Show us how it's done...and when your song sells a million...because you wrote it...maybe you can quit that day job for awhile. -Mark

Perry keep focused my man!...these discussion boards are what they are....discussion boards...they can't and won't change a thing...if it is meant to ..then it will happen...you are halfway there...what is meant for YOU...WON'T go past you...if it is not meant to happen then start brushing up on your guitar chords..but in the meantime....enjoy the ride...we are all rooting for you..it is a great team effort,the writer, the song, the singer, the production,..you need all these key elements to get near the bulls-eye..and of course investment...Good Luck...hope the "ham bone" rings out for you next week....Terry...

Hi Perry

I think that you got sidetracked by Bill...he misspoke about when you joined and stuff...but that isn't the issue at all..this whole argument is a carry over from the contest last year...it's like dejavu...Tammy was angry last year about the same thing...it's the "what is a pro?" or "who should be able to enter" or "they didn't phrase the rules correctly"...it's the argument is about THE CONTEST ITSELF...

Bills misstatements and the debate here that sort of was about you making it (in the context of the argument) INHO made you feel
that is was PERSONAL...like they were talking about you PERSONALLY...As someone who has been around JPF for years and didn't enter a song and read these threads last year too...I can tell you for certain...IT ISN'T ABOUT YOU...not in any way shape or form...You got lucky, true... Let's say it's world championship of Poker...let's say a relative newcomer makes it to the final table, with tons of big names and previous winners eliminated...people will piss and moan that you made it over them and you didn't have the experience. It isn't YOU it's just the way it happened...In a car dealership, you'll have say 12 salesmen and a new guy gets hired. The "pro's" think they know it all...then the new guy does really well and outsells most of them...they all then HATE the new guy. He embarassed them...It's human nature. That is exactly what is happening here. You have to remove yourself personally from this argument. It's not about YOU...it's just that...you're the NEW guy and other people feel that they have paid their dues way more than you...ADD to that, the fact that "best song" is SO ambiguous...in sales, numbers are numbers...in best song, everything is grey, and that leaves even infinitely more excuses and jealousy as not only is the best song open to interpretation, but also the road to getting there, the level of talent, there is a million things one could pick at...Anyway, I could be rambling, the bottom line is you have to not take this personally, it is not in ANY WAY about you personally.

Post deleted by Perry Smith

Okay, you're in a songwriting competition where your song is going to be scrutinized under a microscope by millions and millions of people, 30 million people will hear the winning song
Thats the bottom line, does that mean everyone who doesn't like it is jealous, no that conclusion is what lazy people come up with
What burns me is the show gets 30-40 million people in ratings yet these are the best songs they have put through?
For goodness sakes american idol your fans deserve something a lot better than what is offered, I hope this is the last year for this songwriting competition, sure its good for the songwriter (Last years song sucked so bad I feel like it hurt their career)
I dont know about this year, I have a feeling it'll be another great talent singing a less than mediocre song

Perry

I am pretty sure you are a nice man and you passed the bar, so you are also smart. BUT...your response leads me to think that you didn't really understand my post...and I don't know if I can say it any better.

Airun
some are jealous, some are envious, some are happy, some are sad...etc, etc...observing that does not make one lazy. Would you be happier if they just picked a song that you had NO choice in?

Hi again, Perry,

Guess I'm in a chiming-in sort of mode today . This time I'll hop on Herbie's bandwagon (I know, Herbie, 'get in line, get in line' !) and reiterate that the contest itself has stirred up a lot of angst and conversation and conspiracy theories. Especially since this year the time frame was moved up and then certain states couldn't participate, etc. etc. etc. How you managed to be one of the 20 needles in the haystack would be fodder for conversation no matter what your experience level. I'll go with the "it's a great and fitting yet updated finale song"....but that's just my opinion. I more than appreciate everyone's entitlement to an opinion -- but I agree, it's just not necessary to make it personal and/or mean-spirited (whatever the motivation). And it's not always easy to interpret intent of a given post, given the format in which these communications take place.

Anyhoo, I guess that speaks to my next point. IF and/or when you hear you did not make it (which strictly from the numbers standpoint is a possibility, alas)...you had best prepare yourself for the "I told you so" backlash. And the "see, they really don't let amateurs win, it was all a master plan to let them THINK we let them win" conspiracy. Etc. Etc. However, I certainly believe that the majority of the comments you'd receive would be of support and understanding and "it was an honor just to be in the Top 20" -- and rightly so. So try to chill and again, enjoy this time. At the very least, your future is going to be VERY INTERESTING!!!!

Have FUN!!!

Cheers,
Beth

P.S. BTW, if you happen to win, would you mind if I PM'd my phone number for you to pass along to my hopeful winner David Cook??

Well, I think It'd be easier for the viewers If they do choose a song that we had no choice in, The consensus among all the forums that aren't brainwashed doesn't leave much hope for this years idol and they're growing very weary from past winning songs, Simon Cowell is doing a smart thing in the UK Idol version, the winner Leona Lewis whos the next international superstar (soon to be bigger than Rhianna)
Cut kelly clarksons - A moment like this
Her cover of that song was downloaded 50,000 times in 30 minutes of its release making it the fastest selling download to date,and the biggest selling download in one week
The single sold a total of 571,253 copies in its first week, outselling the rest of the Top 40 combined and making it the fastest selling single in the UK by a female artist, beating
Baby One More Time" by Britney Spears
As of November 2007, Lewis's version of the song has sold over 800,000 copies in the UK
Not to mention number 1 in numerous countries and top 10 in others

Compare this to Jordin Sparks "This is my now"
Which only spent 4 weeks on the billboard charts, going from #15 and dropping to 95 and then off the chart, her career was picked up again thankfully due to the song, Tattoo and No air featuring Chris Brown

An awesome debut single starts you off on a great foot with a lot of momentum, a bad song does the exact opposite and very fast!!!

deleted

I took Perry's statement to mean, even though he really wants to take off three weeks due to this earthshaking turn of events, the reality is that he has a job he needs to keep, and that there's too much work to be done for them to allow him the time off.

So, keeping his job means he doesn't take this seriously? He's supposed to defy his employer and get fired? I sure wouldn't.

No Mark
It does not.
But the way it was worded sounded like he did not care. Now If I read that wrong then I apologize.

Post deleted by Perry Smith