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Hey Guys:

It's Wednesday night, March 26th, 2008 and Ryan Seacrest was ballyhooing the winner of the Idol Songwriting contest last year... while encouraging songwriters to submit new songs for this year's contest. They played a snippet of last year's winner, Jordan Sparks, singing the winning song.

Funny thing... they never even hinted at the name of the person who wrote the song. (I suppose the songwriter is supposed to be content at the "instant wealth" bestowed upon them.) LOL!

It's kinda like reading the album label and not seeing the name of the songwriter(s)... the public simply does not seem to care. Once somebody famous does a great rendition of a song... it becomes theirs. Why do we (songwriters) have to endure this kind of treatment?

Maybe it's just me but I'm tired of songwriters subsidizing the free world and receiving diddly for it. If the money were good enough, sure... I could forgo the fame... but we all know it's not that way anymore.

Just my take. Am I wrong?

Dave


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I agree with you Dave, that is sad for the Songwriter. The fame wouldn't be there if it wasn't for the Songwriter, and don't forget the masters, who put the music together for the lyrics, Cause they bring our lyrics to life, WOW! FANTASTIC! The Producers. wink

For me, singing my song "Don't push my button", was like putting the Icing on the Cake, and I would not except taking all the praise for it, Paul, who produced all the music, and helped me with the structure, is the Talented One. smile


Michele grin
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I believe that credit should be given were it is due. The song writer is an important part of the mix, stating such is only fair.

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edit:

Meant my previous post for another topic.

I hope things work out with the songwriter.


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Maybe FOMA or NSAI should write them a letter. For that matter, where's BMI and ASCAP on this? I'll get on the phone to my rep tomorrow. That's what we get. There's probably a clause in the contract that says, "No complaining." I hope this thread gets as much attention as one of those "BMI is closing down the coffeehouse!" threads.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

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Reading this further, I can't recall when a strict songwriter has had much infamous credit.
I envy the royalty checks though if that musician becomes famous.

I have been thinking of being just a songwriter to keep my private life and not have all the expectations of a performer.
They really have to deliver that songwriting through to make the songwriting work.
I would'nt want to bear that task.
At least not to that degree.

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I agree. It's appalling that the songwriter who WON the contest isn't even given credit. Unless they chose to be unknown.


Vikki Flawith: Songwriter/Composer, Singer/Voice Teacher

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The song was horrid, I think they were showing the songwriter some mercy, It was the worst Idol song in the history of the show
Chart wise and sale wise

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Originally Posted by airun
The song was horrid, I think they were showing the songwriter some mercy, It was the worst Idol song in the history of the show
Chart wise and sale wise


American Idol executives STILL chose to use that song though. It comes down to credit being given when it is due. But, maybe the song writer did not want his name revealed, because he or she was not particularly proud of this composition either...that we'll never know. But at the same time, writers really don't get the recognition they deserve. If you think about it though, there is an old saying that no press is bad press...keeping this in mind, it would still be more advantageous for the writer to want the cred for publicity. Being any part of an American Idol event at all, has to mean a lot no matter what the song quality is.

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I always figured that a songwriter was like a hired gun to trigger that song for the performer.
Highly sought and known in the industry itself.
In other roles in music, few engineers and mixers are household names, unless they step out with something on their own or produce, like Alan Parsons for example.
The same with songwriters.
I hav'nt heard of many of them wanting public acclaim.
But there are obviously feelings for that too.

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I know that much goes into making a song, and you can't thank everybody over the air...it too time consuming. But, the writers are just as important as the singers in my book. Also, you do here a LOT about what producers mixed and remixed, and triple mixed the songs.

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Most of the rock cd's I pick up, the band members write their own songs.
There is a post here about it hampering vocalists that do their own songwrting.
There definately should'nt be a bar placed on it.

As much as songwriters (or anyone's role in that song) equally deserve credit, it is that showperson that will get the exposure - credit.
Credit all ruled by hype it seems.

I would still love those royalties.


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Songwriting is the engine that drives the business..but unfortunately Joe Public buys a song because he likes it..not because of who wrote it..we as songwriters do like a little credit,but ask any member of the public Who wrote the song,99.99% haven't a clue....but hey,the wife just bought a new dyson hoover...all i know it is prob one of the best on the market..but who invented it?...haven't a clue....so the same rules apply....Terry..

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Stuff the adulation. Just show me the money !

cheers, niteshift

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After posting my first thoughts, you know what, I really thought about it, and I agree, SHOW ME THE MONEY! grin


But it would be nice to be mentioned, as the songwriter! grin

Michele wink
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I guess the Era where ya Give Credit is Long Gone...

I used to be SO Impressed at Frank Sinatra Concerts, because Ol' Blue Eyes would credit BOTH The Songwriter AND often-enough, The Arranger..BEFORE he sang whatever Song was Next.

Blame the Radio Stations. They don't even credit The Artists much anymore...so they can cram in More Commercials-per-hour.

& yeah, Blame The Artists...the Low-Talent Ones who can't write worth a Bean, yet whose Egos won't Think of Sharing a little Glory. (But CERTAINLY want a Piece of the Writing Rights before they'll cut a Song..)

& Perhaps, Blame The Audience...who could care LESS about WHO Created What They're About to Hear..(Let alone PAYING for it...)

AI's recently hadda switch to Old Beatles Songs to keep the Viewership Up...GEE, that's Real Cutting-Edge Material, Ain't It?

Waal, time to get offa my Soapbox & get back to The Next Lyric.

Big Hugs,
Ol' Stan

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Michele,

I'm a big fan of SHOW ME THE MONEY. That's why it's even more important for songwriters to be recognized. At a time when new systems of renumeration for songwriters are being negotiated, it's important that the public understand that it was a songwriter, not the artist (except in a few circumstances) who created that music that enhances their lives. When there are so many songwriters competing for the fewer and fewer hits, thanks to consolidation of the radio industry, it helps to be known as a writer of popular songs (remember, it's not who you know, it's who knows you, as Bobbie Gallup often reminds us).

As poor in quality, as some folks may think, that this song was. There are probably millions of folks who enjoyed it. All it takes is for the right person to hear it. Let's say, for example, some young artist starting out, who is very talented, hears that song and contacts AI for information to record it. Do you think AI will give that young person info on the songwriter? Or do you think AI will get their claws into it first?

And the bottom line is, it is simply disrespect.

All the Best,
Mike


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

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I agree and disagree with you there Mike. When I played in bands, it was all about the recognition from the public. Now that I just write a few tunes, it's more about the musical community than the public face of it all. The credits are always there if you look for them, and the industry knows what's going on, so I really don't see the necessity for the public to be involved, because it has no bearing on whom works with who. Musicians and artists will track down and work with the writers regardless of what's going on in show biz. Maybe I just want a quiet life, but am happy for a slap on the back from my peers occassionally, and the ability to hang out with a few folks, have them listen and foward my material, and likewise if I can do so in return. I don't see it as disrespect, just something which the general publc aren't interested in.....it's all about entertainment, and that's just show biz.

cheers, niteshift

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I agree with Mike....
total disrespect....
beyond that.... it's just kind of odd....
here they are talking to "the songwriters out there" asking for songs for this year... and highlighting the song that won last year and not mentioning who wrote it.
To me it was the same sort of thing as if it was an ad for Idol itself...and urging singers to audition...and showing last years winner.... without ever mentioning a name.
kind of downplays the whole event.....

and if I recall rightly... the very first season when Kelly and Justin battled it out in the finals and both sang the same two songs.... didn't they mention that night that both songs were written by Diane Warren?

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Yeah...and while we're at it, lets make sure the following too get recognition

those who build the race cars that formula one winners etc drive to victory

the road trip managers of professional sports teams

all the officers and men under Douglas MacArthur (or Patton, Eisenhower), or King Leonides for that matter...he WAS in one of the most famous battles in history...EVER!!!

the bottom 90% of the iceberg

....

I disagree with those who say not recognizing the songwriter publicly is disrespectful or wrong...what you're talking about is "limelight recognition". As Niteshiftpoints out, every one who is involved knows who is involved, and grants their respect...much like being a successful songwriter will get you known to those who matter...

When you buy a car, most people focus on the body, interior, and the colour, but don't think much about the engine...

Only a few pure lyricists or songwriters ever got\get "public" recognition. Remember, we, as humans, only focus on "the star" , the "one".

We all remember Seattle Slew..but who remembers who rode him? Bred him? Trained him?

We all know Daniel Ellsburg, but what was his psychiatrist's name? (must have driven him nuts smile )

Do not make the mistake of equating disrespect for not being in the limelight with "the star"

It would be nice, don't get me wrong, especially in cases where others "in the production chain" are recognized, but as someone else alluded to, where would that stop? The arranger, producer, engineer, publicist, financier, equipment provider, etc, all play a role. The songwriter is but one element of "a hit". Paul Anka wrote "My Way"...Frank Sinatra made it his.

And Seattle Slew ran the race.


If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

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Well they never give the name of the Standards that our sung by participants, each week.

There was publicity at the time naming the writers, some one said the song was awfull, well are we surprised, and what does that say about the rest of the songs that were entered.

It's not a competition for song writers it's for singers.

So let's be gratefull they are willing to allow songs to be entered.







Have been working at E.M.I. Hayes U.K. in many departments starting as Tea Boy and worked through to A and R, New Artist Management,
Co Writing , with Boy Bands, and some solo acts
I have always played in bands,

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Originally Posted by Split Level

It's not a competition for song writers it's for singers.


Eh? The songwriting competition is a competition for songwriters.

I disagree that American Idol is a competition for singers. It's really a competition to be the most popular performer.


Vikki Flawith: Songwriter/Composer, Singer/Voice Teacher

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Elegantly said John, some don't need the limelight to succeed, others do. Each to his own, but I'm quite happy to be a part of the whole process without the razz mittazz.. I'll leave that for the public face of music, which is the performer.

cheers, niteshift

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Yes Vicki, it IS about the most popular performer, not the best vocalist. It's entertainment, and needs to be treated as such.

cheers, niteshift

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Originally Posted by "TampaStan" Good
I used to be SO Impressed at Frank Sinatra Concerts, because Ol' Blue Eyes would credit BOTH The Songwriter AND often-enough, The Arranger..BEFORE he sang whatever Song was Next.


Well Sinatra, Bennett, Ella, Etc actually knew the names of the songwriters and probably knew a lot of them personally too. Do the pop stars of today even know the names of their writers if they're not in their inner circle?

It's obvious "back in the day" there was a lot of respect between the singers, writers, arrangers, band members, etc. Is there the same respect today? hmmm...

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Sinatra probably did know the writers personally. Back "in the day," there was a lot more teamwork in these efforts. American Idol is kinda the antithesis of teamwork--it's cookie-cutter stuff. If any of these kids can sing anything, then who wrote it doesn't really matter, does it?

Ol' Blue Eyes also had a lot of class--something else lacking in much of the music business these days.

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Great posts so far, gang!

I understand where most of you are coming from. Of course there is a great deal to be said for the state of "anonymity." I have no desire to be recognized by anyone whenever I enter the doors of McDonalds or the local pub. Let me explain my "complaint" in another way. Would you all agree that music (for the most part) is an artform? What if DaVinci had never signed his work?

If a songwriter never creates a song... silence occurs... nobody has anything to sing. Does the originator deserve at least the mention of his/her name?

Of course the money is important. That's why I write in the first place... and possibly why I am still so hungry. (LOL!) Yes, I sing my own demos/songs but never in public. I simply want somebody with real talent to hear the song and record it as a cover so I can leave a little something to my children and grand-children... plus the possibility of a little recognition as to have been the songwriter who created something of worth or truth or beauty.

...and when they place me in the ground, I hope my marker will include... "A writer of songs."

Dave

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Personally, I don't think even the likes of Steve Seskin or Dianne Warren get rushed by paparazzi when stopping at the local Carl Jrs for a burger and fries.

I would gladly take the level of fame they have achieved.

Maybe Paul Williams would get recognized a bit, but then he has also been a performer on TV shows, not just a songwriter.

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Having had a certain amount of anonymity all my life I do not crave fame. Some extra cash would be nice. A certain person (a famous ex pop star) has hit the headlines in the last few days here for all the wrong reasons. Had it been Joe Bloggs or Fred Smith it would have had a small paragraph. It had four pages of terrible accusations and abusive bad name calling. Gutter press at it's worst. Even if you have done nothing wrong someone jumps out of the woodwork with allegations trying to make a buck with a made up story.

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Hi Mike

The answer to your question, is A1 would get there claws into it first.

Yes, I do agree, that the songwriter should be MENTIONED, on American Idol, as this is where it all begins. THE SONGWRITER,the SINGER, the PRODUCTION & all those talented people, who are involved in producing the songs, AND MAKING THEM MARKETABLE! GREAT JOB all round.

Remember, I am only a beginner, I am still on my learners with singing/songwriting, my first song "Don't push my button" is my very first song that I have written, and I haven't done a lot of singing either, but what I do know, is that Paul, who done all the production work for my song, deserves a lot of Credit. Fantastic! My lyrics, wouldn't of come to LIFE, if it wasn't for Paul. Today, many are asking me WHEN CAN I PURCHASE YOUR SONG? CAN I HAVE A COPY? I am very excited about my first song, The lyrics, me singing it, and the production, I am very proud of my first achievement.

I know nothing about the music industry at all, only from what I have experienced, with my first song, and if someone else picked up the lyrics of my song, I would be very disappointed if I wasn't mentioned, as the songwriter.

GO THE SONGWRITER, THE SINGER, AND THE PRODUCTION, cause they ALL deserve CREDIT, they ALL do a fantastic JOB!

Show Me The Money, is that a TV show, cause I don't watch much TV.? And I haven't watched American Idol, cause my TV aerial doesn't work, I only get Aus Star. CMC Channel is all I get to watch, when I get time.

Michele
Aussie girl from down under



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...and when they place me in the ground, I hope my marker will include... "A writer of songs."

I'll take that one Dave, my sentiments exactly.

cheers, niteshift

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I don't know that I would even bother with this contest. The following is sort of a shrill post I lifted from elsewhere, but it says a little something about the backgrounds of the finalists from last years AI songwriting contest...and maybe it takes the sting out of the non-mention of that year's winner, Scott Krippayne:

At least 10 different songwriters have had prior working relationships with either American Idol Judge’s Randy Jackson, Paula Abdul, American Idol bandleader Rickey Minor, American Idol Host Ryan Seacrest, former American Idol finalist or Fox Television.

One Songwriting Finalist Colin Armstrong, according to his American Idol bio, won the "BE A STAR" contest on L.A. radio station STAR 98.7 FM.
Sadly, the bio doesn’t mention that Ryan Seacrest was the radio DJ, and that 2 of Colin’s Armstrong’s co-writers Mikal Reid and Marti Frederiksen are credited on Bo Bice’s 2005 CD and Clay Aiken’s 2006 CD.

(Side note, Marti Frederiksen and Clive Davis are producer’s on Clay’s CD).

Songwriting Finalist Jennifer Hamady spent 2 episodes as a backup singer on the 2007 season of American Idol.

Songwriting Finalist Kelly Corsino has her own music production company "Framistan" and one of her clients is Fox Television.

Songwriting Finalist Cal Harris Jr. was an engineer on Paula Abdul’s "Head Over Heels" CD.

Songwriting Finalist Sam Sims was the bass player on Paula Abdul’s "Under My Spell" tour.

Songwriting Finalist CJ Vanston played keyboards while Randy Jackson played Bass on Richard Marx’s "Repeat Offender" and "Days In Avolon" CD’s.

Songwriting Finalist Shedrick Mitchell gets the credit of playing the organ while American Idol Bandleader Rickey Minor played the bass on "Queen Latifah’s Dana Owens" CD.

I still haven’t mentioned the winning song yet. And remember that that the songwriting contest, according to the shows producer Simon Fuller, was meant for amateur songwriters.

Ok, lets examine American Idol Songwriting Contest Champ Scott Krippayne’s true bio.
At Walmart.com, you can buy Scott’s 2005 "Gentle Revolution" CD for the low price of only $12.88. I’ve been to Walmart and looked, there isn’t an amateur CD section, but there is a Scott Krippayne section.

So much for searching for a great undiscovered songwriting talent.

And if you visit the U.S. copyright website, a quick search shows Scott Krippayne has written songs for several christian artist like Jaci Velasquez, Rebecca Saint James, Kathy Troccoli, Point of Grace and more.

And if you check out Scott’s Purplehonda myspace page, Scott says he has written 14 number 1 hits and 20 top 10 hits for artist like John Tesh, Ronan Tynan, Saddi Patty and more.

F.Y.I. Scott Krippayne also wrote the title track "Wonderful Crazy" for American Idol Juniors finalist Katelyn Tarver’s 2005 debut CD.

So much for having an untapped songwriter. He seems fairly tapped to me.

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And they claim the results are not rigged. I just wonder if the AI singing/karaoke contest is not rigged either.

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I have heard rumors of that too Big Jim! Believe me! And of course I am not happy that people from my state are not even allowed to enter American Idol. Its all really quite crazy.

T

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People from Iowa can't enter American Idol?

Brian


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whhoooops Brian, sorry! I didn't mean that. They actually had auditions here. So check this out, ..... it's ok to get picked to compete as a vocalist on American Idol for a big prize. But it's not ok to compete as a songwriter on American Idol for a big prize. Sounds like something worth pursuing to me! ha!

Tammy

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Or maybe even "Why" can't people from Iowa enter Idol?.... Even Australian's can... but then there is that roumor that Howard was trying to get us accepted as the 53rd State...





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Hi Dave

From the first time I ever submitted a song without a band I knew I would be giving up a lot.

I knew....
1- The artist would get all the publicity

2- I would make the least money, % the publishers and or lablel is taking the BIGGGER
cut.

SAy You write that silly song "Living Lavida Loca" Ricky Martin sings it and becomes a HUGE star (for a few weeks) He goes away! Some people actually make fun of him & the song. But they NEVER KNOW YOU! Nice!

You're a GHOST and when he's gone, then you move on and write a song for the next artist that takes his place etc.... smile

You never have to worry much about. looks, touring (breaking your family up)
Press, and a whole bunch of other nonsense.


Also on the good side - AGE is a non factor unless when your older you write your age.

So we will take that deal, send me a check and CREDIBILTY inside the industry.

It's a FAIR trade off smile Be Happy lol...

PS _ Sinatra knew darn well who Sammy Cahn & Paul Anka was smile


Thanks!
Peace Mike
Sub

Music & Video's & Photo's
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=482602

Demo/Production & Music Services
http://www.substudiomusic.com







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Most of the songs I have done right now are either already picked up by a major artist or the cowriters on the songs I am on are signed to major publishers.

With that said, most of my songs don't qualify for this contest and the songs that might qualify, I wouldn't send in because they're not appropriate for the show.

Greg

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Originally Posted by TAMERA64
whhoooops Brian, sorry! I didn't mean that. They actually had auditions here. So check this out, ..... it's ok to get picked to compete as a vocalist on American Idol for a big prize. But it's not ok to compete as a songwriter on American Idol for a big prize. Sounds like something worth pursuing to me! ha!

Tammy

www.tammyedwards.com
www.myspace.com/tammyedwards2


Hey Tammy, I think this may shed some light on the restrictions on some states. This is an excerpt from Maryland's Title 13 (and a similar law exists for Arizona as well).

§ 13-305. Prizes conditioned on purchases or sales promotion.

(b) Prohibition.- A person may not notify any other person by any means, as part of an advertising scheme or plan, that the other person has won a prize, received an award, or has been selected or is eligible to receive anything of value if the other person is required to purchase goods or services, pay any money to participate in, or submit to a sales promotion effort.

It may be kind of strange, but sometimes the law is strange.

My guess is that Iowa has a similar law.


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Larry the way I read this it is legislation protecting people from scams. It refers to purchasing goods or services as a condition in return for an entry to a competition.
You know the thing "You have won a major prize to collect your prize just buy something or other or sign up for our scam etc."
I cannot see this as having anything to do with free to enter competitions. I was going to say legit comps but IMHO AI is not a legit comp. LOL.

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A house gets all the glory, the foundation gets little, but without a good foundation a house would not stand for long. The song (songwriter) is the foundation of the music industry, without good songs the industry would not stand for long. Everybody involved in the music industry makes more money and gets more glory than the songwriter. That doesn't seem right to me.

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Amen Everett.

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Thanks, Everett and Big Jim:

My point exactly! Of course I understand the other opinions posted on this thread... it's just so sad that songwriters... no matter how good or bad our product may be... are mostly ignored or treated like second class citizens.

Dave

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Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
Larry the way I read this it is legislation protecting people from scams. It refers to purchasing goods or services as a condition in return for an entry to a competition.
...


You're right in that it's in the consumer protection section of the law. What it essentially does is stop ANY contest that has an entry fee. The key phrase is "...pay any money to participate in...". There's a $10 fee to enter your song.

I have seen many similar disclaimers on other contests like "not valid where prohibited by law".

My guess is that it also prevents State Lotteries...and don't get me started on what THAT money was supposed to help and hasn't.


Anyways, AI should name the songwriter if they're propping the song...

I can't believe the PROs are OK with that. I hope Mike's call to the local PRO will get AI a nasty email from their attorney.




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Originally Posted by Everett Adams
A house gets all the glory, the foundation gets little, but without a good foundation a house would not stand for long. The song (songwriter) is the foundation of the music industry, without good songs the industry would not stand for long. Everybody involved in the music industry makes more money and gets more glory than the songwriter. That doesn't seem right to me.
What's so appealing about glory?

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Dagnabit Everett,
I was lambasted by Brian himself when I posted less than approval for Artists being paid for Radio Air Play. If they can get it set up OK but it seems like songwriters make more than Artists according to some.

Rarely, if ever, have songwriter's been mentioned on the Radio.
Our friend Bill Rocker asked for us to give examples of songs that were lousy. Hell they don't even give the name of the Artist on Hot Country Radio let alone the song title or who wrote it. Hard to post anything with no information on songs or artists. All I could do was give a blanket answer that nothing I hear is very good.

I don't want to be mentioned if I write a big hit. Just show me the money. I'll buy my own fame.


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Here is the way I look at it. If it was to AI's advantage to name or even have the winning songwriter come on the show as a guest, they would do it. So what are they looking for? They would be looking for someone who has a profile similar to the singing contestants. They don't want to associate AI with some balding asmatic pot bellied fifty something social misfit even if he did just put the words and melody in the mouth of a 16-year-old disney heatthrob. Woops! I hope I didn't actually describe anyone on this thread.


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grin LOL grin

You probably nailed quite a few of us there.

I don't have a pot belly.

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Originally Posted by Lwilliam
Originally Posted by BIG JIM MERRILEES
Larry the way I read this it is legislation protecting people from scams. It refers to purchasing goods or services as a condition in return for an entry to a competition.
...


You're right in that it's in the consumer protection section of the law. What it essentially does is stop ANY contest that has an entry fee. The key phrase is "...pay any money to participate in...". There's a $10 fee to enter your song.

I have seen many similar disclaimers on other contests like "not valid where prohibited by law".

My guess is that it also prevents State Lotteries...and don't get me started on what THAT money was supposed to help and hasn't.


Anyways, AI should name the songwriter if they're propping the song...

I can't believe the PROs are OK with that. I hope Mike's call to the local PRO will get AI a nasty email from their attorney.




Larry so what you are saying is that this legislation does not allow any competition or lottery where there is an entry fee.
WOW that IMO is an infringement of civil liberties.
I can understand legislation banning scams and protecting consumers but that, if you are correct, is a terrible ill thought piece legislation. No prize draws, raffles, lotteries or other bona fide competitions allowed. Charity over here relies on these type of things for income. I am gobsmacked.

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