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#588367 - 02/19/08 11:08 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,297
Michael Borges (D) Offline
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Michael Borges (D)  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2002
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Lake Elsinore, California
Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
Upload a low quality version of a Rolling Stones song and it will still sound fine. Upload a WAV file of a piece of crap and it will still be a piece of crap.
Brian

Ha... that's funny Brian, and oh so true!!

Michael


There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

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#588374 - 02/19/08 11:43 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
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John Voorpostel Offline
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John Voorpostel  Offline
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Sorry for the aside Brian but you hit on a peeve of mine

A few years back, people began saying "I could care less" instead of "I couldn't care less" because of the supposed double negative....but that is a load of crap.

I couldn't care less means I am unable to care less because I care so little now, caring less is simply not doable

I could care less on the other hand means I am able to care less


smile I know, you couldn't care less about this aside smile


If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

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#588422 - 02/20/08 04:33 AM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: John Voorpostel]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,047
Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content

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But I COULD care less... this is a perfect example. I care less about "spelling police." See, I was right in the first place. = )

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@gmail.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

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#589408 - 02/23/08 06:24 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
Joined: Sep 2006
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Andrew Aversa Offline
Andrew Aversa  Offline

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So, we're in the quarterfinals now, and the World category is still in desperate need of attention. There are songs in the top 10 that are, to me, obviously off-topic. It seems like no one has read the actual guidelines OurStage has put forth regarding what fits in that category. For example, there's a song with a bossa nova groove, Spanish style playing, and Spanish vocals. That's all well and good, but there's a "Latin" category which is specific for that kind of music! Then there are songs with one ethnic drumloop in the background with completely Western sounds, writing, vocals, etc. I don't think that is "World", I think that is "Rock" or "Jazz" or the actual PRIMARY genre of the piece.

Because we're now in the quarterfinals I implore the OurStage staff to please be more proactive in removing or re-classifying songs that are in the wrong genre!

If I may make a suggestion on how to improve things, or rather, two suggestions;

1. When judging, there should be a prominent description of the genre being judged right above the songs that are playing. Then, in red text, fans should be asked to please flag any songs that don't fall into that description as "Off Topic"!

2. When uploading a song, the system should STOP you once you select a genre and do the following;

* Display a description of the genre you picked and say, "Are you sure this is what you want?"

* Provide alternative suggestions for genre classification. eg. If you pick World, it should say "Is your song primarily Latin or Spanish in style? If so, please select the LATIN category." It seems like many people simply aren't reading the guidelines or looking through all the categories, so by doing this, problems could be avoided.


Last edited by Andrew Aversa; 02/23/08 06:41 PM.

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#589413 - 02/23/08 06:45 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Andrew Aversa]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,047
Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content

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Indianapolis, IN USA
Andrew,

I've been in regular discussions with the Ourstage folks helping them redefine their genres. They are making significant changes starting March 1.. but they can't really make changes during a contest.. and they certainly can't remove a song in the finals.. that's simply not fair to anyone. Folks are making 2 mistakes.. miscategorizing their own music.. and then another large group are voting on that music to move forward. A lot of folks are blowing it, but it's not really Ourstage's fault. They ARE taking the issue very seriously and are working quickly to improve where they can. But unless they take over categorization (like we do with the JPF awards) they're always going to have these problems. It's the same reason Jethro Tull won for Best Metal album in the Grammys so famously. They entered their album into that category.. and then the judges didn't care it was in the wrong place, they simply loved Jethro Tull. There's going to be winners who don't fit the definition.. it's unavoidable if you let artists and fans make the decisions without a savvy industry person interceding. They want to be Democratic so I feel their pain trying to find a system to make it all work and still stick to their "democratic" minded system.

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

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#589430 - 02/23/08 08:20 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
Joined: Apr 2006
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ben willis Offline
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ben willis  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Ft. Myers, FL. USA
Should there be a cut off date early in the month? I entered on the 12th and found an increase of appox. 200 submissions in the genres that I entered since then.
Does it sound fair for someone to submit a song toward the end of the month while most people had there songs in the competition for the whole month? It just doesn't seem right to me, but I may be wrong. Someone enlighten me. Ben

#589491 - 02/24/08 03:02 AM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: ben willis]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,822
Larry Williams Offline
Larry Williams  Offline

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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,822
Santa Clarita, CA USA
I would think that the earlier in the month you enter - all other factors being equal - you would have a better chance to rising higher.

I entered my Jazz tune on Feb. 6th, and it's risen to #19 as of today (the 23rd). Certainly someone who entered two days ago would not have a chance to rise that quickly.

Maybe the best solution IS to have a cutoff date of around the 10th or 15th. Anything entered after that would be counted in the following month's ratings.



#593892 - 03/07/08 05:03 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Michael Borges (D)]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 15
Skyelab Studios Offline
Casual Observer
Skyelab Studios  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 15
NY
I work with OurStage.com and we are constantly trying to make the site better. If any artists want to get their songs up on there you can go through my page and I will try to help you out and plug your songs along the way.
www.ourstage.com/go/keithp

Let me know if you need any help signing up.

#594235 - 03/08/08 02:59 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Skyelab Studios]  
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 9,649
Two Singers Offline
Two Singers  Offline

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Joined: Feb 2001
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Northern Alabama
Keith,

Just posted another one. And, I'll take any help I can get with plugging it. I'm registered as Al David and the song is "Cross Eyed & Tongue Tied" in the on the Jazz channel. Thanks!

Al

#594279 - 03/08/08 05:25 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Two Singers]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,047
Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content

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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,047
Indianapolis, IN USA
Keith,

Are you here as an official rep of Outstage, or are you here as an official rep of Skyelab Studios? It's important for our members to know they are 2 different things.

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

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#594284 - 03/08/08 05:50 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 9,649
Two Singers Offline
Two Singers  Offline

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Joined: Feb 2001
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Northern Alabama
Brian,

I hope that Keith returns to answer your question himself. But, for what it is worth, when you click onto the link he posted, it takes your straight to "Our Stage" and addresses nothing but his affiliation with "Our Stage". No mention of "Skyelab Studios" exists what-so-ever. He is their (Our Stage)field rep for Indie and hard Rock music. As I said, FWIW.

Al

Last edited by Al David; 03/08/08 05:50 PM.
#594301 - 03/08/08 06:24 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Two Singers]  
Joined: Apr 2001
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Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content

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Joined: Apr 2001
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I am aware of that Al. But he's also posting on other stuff with links to Skyelab. So I just want to clarify which he's representing when he posts. We have a Community Partnership with Ourstage, but I don't know much about his other company so I want to clarify they aren't the same thing. We're essentially vouching for Ourstage. We are not informed about the other company.

The reason for my posts on this issue is that I've received emails already asking whether we were also endorsing Skyelab and the answer is we don't know anything about them. Keith is welcome to talk about and promote his services with Skyelab, I just want to keep the line between Ourstage and Skyelab clear so folks don't get confused.

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@gmail.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#594751 - 03/10/08 09:46 AM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,664
Kevin Emmrich Offline
Kevin Emmrich  Offline


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Posts: 10,664
Crozet, VA
I entered 3 songs for March at OurStage and I pretty much languishing at the back of the pack ( http://www.ourstage.com/fanclub/kevinemmrich ). Roll Daddy Roll is 519 out of 622 entries in R&B/Soul, Dark Recesses is 700/1053 in Rock and Let that River Flow is 801/944 in Singer/Songwriter.

I am pretty confident that the OurStage is a good indication of where your songs really "are" since the judging seems very difficult to scam. I guess it means my songs just aren't where they need to be yet. The truth hurts, but the truth also set us free. I see no reason to pursue expensive demos if my songs can't make it into the top 10%.

Excellent site, I just need to get better.

Kevin


"Good science comes in peer reviewed journals. Conspiracy theories come in videos. "
Kevin @ bandcamp: Crows Say Vee-Eh (and Kevin @50/90 2019)
#594858 - 03/10/08 04:44 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 15
Skyelab Studios Offline
Casual Observer
Skyelab Studios  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 15
NY
Hi,
Sorry I am just getting back to post now. OurStage.com and Skyelab Studios are two completely different things. I mostly chat about my production experience through my day job with Skyelab Studios, but I personally am also a field rep for OurStage. So when I saw that OurStage became a community partner with JPF I thought I would share my experince with them as well. Sorry for any confusion, but as Brian and I said, the 2 companies are not related at all.



Last edited by Skyelab Studios; 03/10/08 04:47 PM.
#598704 - 03/21/08 02:25 AM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Skyelab Studios]  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 74
dannyjames Offline
Serious Contributor
dannyjames  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 74
New Hampshire
Hi all,

I've been on the road for the past three weeks (NoisePop, CMW and SXSW--whew!). I've been out of the loop for a bit. Would love to answer any questions or new topics related to OurStage. Glad to see the conversation continues. Just wanting to get back into the swing of things.

#598743 - 03/21/08 04:31 AM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: dannyjames]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,047
Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content

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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,047
Indianapolis, IN USA
Hey Danny,

Any additional genre changes for next month?

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@gmail.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#600171 - 03/25/08 02:24 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
Joined: Sep 2006
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Andrew Aversa Offline
Andrew Aversa  Offline

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Philadelphia, PA, USA
Wow, this month, Jill and I have a total of four tracks (between the two of us) in the quarterfinals. At the moment, I am #1 in Techno and she is #1 in New Age/World (I am #2!) Here's hoping at least half of the tracks make it to the semifinals.

Last edited by Andrew Aversa; 03/25/08 02:24 PM.

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#600992 - 03/27/08 12:27 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Andrew Aversa]  
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Everett Adams Offline
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Everett Adams  Offline
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,NL Canada
Being on dialup I can't even take part. Oh woe is me.


The more you taste the bitterness of defeat, the sweeter final victory will be

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#601191 - 03/27/08 10:15 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Andrew Aversa]  
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Michael Borges (D) Offline
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Michael Borges (D)  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,297
Lake Elsinore, California
Originally Posted by Andrew Aversa
Wow, this month, Jill and I have a total of four tracks (between the two of us) in the quarterfinals. At the moment, I am #1 in Techno and she is #1 in New Age/World (I am #2!) Here's hoping at least half of the tracks make it to the semifinals.

Andrew & Jill!
Congratulations on your current high rankings in the quarter finals of the New Age/ World channel! I've been watching and judging the entries there all this month, and yesterday afternoon you songs popped up right at the top. I was so excited I gave you a phone call and left a message about maybe doing licensing/promomotion deal, so please give me a call if you're interested in my offer! smile

Meanwhile, I voted and voted and voted... at least 30 + battles yesterday afternoon. A lot of them involved your songs and at least once I had to judge between your 1st and 2nd place, which was very exciting but also difficult. They're both so well done, so I voted "same" in that case and 97% of the judges agreed with me!

I've also been actively voting in several other channels including Christian/Spiritual, Folk, R&B, Acoustic and watching the Jazz genre as well. There's some great stuff being showcased this month.

Best wishes with your current entries!
Michael


There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

MichaelBorges.com
LicenseQuote.com
#601954 - 03/30/08 02:19 AM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Michael Borges (D)]  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 772
Andrew Aversa Offline
Andrew Aversa  Offline

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Philadelphia, PA, USA
Hey Michael,

Thanks! I got your messages by the way, sorry I haven't been around much, doing some apartment shopping with Jill... but I'll give ya a call tomorrow (Sun) smile

Looks like we are in the semifinals now, and still #1. It's awesome - on behalf of both of us, thanks for the support! One of our friends (sgx) is also #1 in his category, Electronic, with the track Coactive.


http://www.zirconmusic.com/ - Award-winning music/albums for video games, film and TV!

Impact Soundworks - Cutting-edge sample libraries for Kontakt
#602143 - 03/30/08 09:04 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Andrew Aversa]  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,297
Michael Borges (D) Offline
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Michael Borges (D)  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,297
Lake Elsinore, California
Andrew,
Ok, very nice, thanks!
I did a ton of voting the other day and early this afternoon ALL 4 of your songs were still in the number 1 & 2 slots for both New Age / World (Hajime & Antigravity)
http://www.ourstage.com/music/channel/25-world
and Techno/Club/Dance (Breathing You In & Mindbender).
http://www.ourstage.com/music/channel/79-techno

Obviously they haven't given your songs any "handicap" so you flew right past their pro-level radar! whistle grin

What I like about the OurStage format is that it's not just a "songwriting" contest but the whole song, arrangement and production are all factored in unlike many other contests. The top winners are ready for media play and broadcast quality promotion and licensing, etc. Best of all there's a steady stream of new material on a monthly basis, not just once a year (or longer) as with most song contests.

Less than 6 hours left and then off to the final rounds!
Looks like you've got an excellent shot! I'll log back in tomorrow for the final day of voting!

Michael


There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

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#602347 - 03/31/08 01:26 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Michael Borges (D)]  
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Andrew Aversa Offline
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Looks like Jill and I made it into the finals with "Breathing You In" and "Hajime". We're in the top 20, but not in the top 10... I think we'll need some serious support to topple the current high-ranking tracks!!


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#602588 - 04/01/08 04:03 AM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Andrew Aversa]  
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Brian Austin Whitney Online content
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Andrew,

Ask and ye shall receive! = )

Congrats on winning the 5K Andrew and Jill! Two category first place finishes and 1st and 3rd overall.

Brian


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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

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#602603 - 04/01/08 05:45 AM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
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Mark Kaufman Offline
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WOW!!

Way to go, Andrew and Jill!

#602688 - 04/01/08 02:45 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Man, yesterday was one of the most tense days we've ever had... all I can say is THANK YOU to everyone that voted for us at any point in this month's contest! Jill of course is absolutely ecstatic as well. This coincided with the news that our application was accepted for an apartment in Ardmore, PA that was our first choice. Definitely a good way to start the week. grin

Edit: Just to be clear, Jill was the sole grand prize winner for "Hajime". She wrote, produced, and performed the song. I just did the mixing/mastering and some add'l production on it. Our collab "Breathing You In" (which I did all the production for and most of the writing) did come in 3rd, and I'll be entering that again next month for sure!

Last edited by Andrew Aversa; 04/01/08 03:04 PM.

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#602879 - 04/01/08 10:43 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Andrew Aversa]  
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Michael Borges (D) Offline
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Congrats Jill & Andrew!
I saw it coming... especially over the last weekend as we went from the quarter to the semi-final rounds. Suddenly on the last day (March 31st) I realized that two of your songs where in the FINALS and "weighted" at the front of the pack in 1st and 2nd place. This was late yesterday afternoon and after my dinner, there was only about 3 hours left for voting.

I had a very long day yesterday so it got late and I figured I'd confirm the final outcome on Tuesday morning; but last I checked shortly after midnight (Boston time zone), it appears that Hajim had reached 1st place! It was a wonderful surprise and I was going to SHOUT about it but I wasn't sure because each time I refreshed the page the songs seemed to get shuffled around, so probaby it was the last few minutes of tabulating the scores before releasing a final outcome.

Anyway, this morning I checked again and found the final results posted on this page:
http://www.ourstage.com/winners/2008/3
You'll see Hajime at top right side of page where the $5,000 Music Grand Prize is announced! smile

Some contest stats:
1st out of 37 music finalist entries!
1st out of 16,481 total song entries!
1st out of a approx. 10,000 (estimated) artists!

Not sure, but that's getting close in size to some of the largest established (traditional) contests in the world such as John Lennon and the USA Songwriting Competition. I think both of those together don't add up to the size of the JPF song awards. I'm sure Brian can confirm this.

Once again, congrats & mega cheers!
Michael




There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

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#602940 - 04/02/08 01:28 AM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Michael Borges (D)]  
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Brian Austin Whitney Online content
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We're at about 300,000 songs so far in this year's awards. Last time we had 350,000 so it looks like we'll probably pass that by a little, but not as likely by a huge number as we expected initially. (Not to say that 300-400K songs is a small number, it's ridiculously huge).

This was the first full month of JPF member being involved in the process so it's great to see success already for our folks. I listened to all the winners and frankly there's plenty of room for a lot more of our members to do well in this competition. I hope folks will continue to enter and get involved.

Brian


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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

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#603152 - 04/02/08 03:54 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
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Michael Borges (D) Offline
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Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
Hey Danny,
Any additional genre changes for next month?
Brian

Bump!
I'd also like to hear from Danny what's up with their current Genre/Channel plans. It's getting harder to spot changes because at last count there was 23 channels, but some could already be slightly renamed for the April contest. So far I haven't seen any new (or major) changes, but maybe I should take a closer look and compare with the March list I posted last week.

Michael


There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

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#603157 - 04/02/08 04:04 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Michael Borges (D)]  
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Looks like they rearranged hip hop a bit: they now have three categories, "Hip Hop", "Alt. Hip Hop", and "Rap/Gangsta Rap". The special entry categories also changed a bit, but they change every month. I think the "Hard Rock" category may also be new.


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#603246 - 04/02/08 08:27 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Andrew Aversa]  
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My apologies in advance if this has already been discussed, but...

I notice that you need to listen to at least 15 seconds of each song before you can judge. When I got that pop-up window reminding me of this fact, I realized I've been making these judgments faster and faster and faster. I also realized how unfair it is of me to rate someone's song based on such a skimpy listen. Then I also realized this is probably the norm...listen until you get the drift, then move on.

I am aware that professional screeners often listen to only about 30 seconds as well (on a slow day).

But as I find myself pushing the button faster and faster...I wonder how many of us are basically judging intros. Would it be a good idea to require a longer listen? 30 seconds? A minute?

Maybe, maybe not.

And if not, I strongly suggest to anyone submitting music to put everything you've got into that first 15 seconds...it might be all they ever hear. (Start with the chorus! grin )


#603253 - 04/02/08 08:50 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Michael Borges (D) Offline
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Mark,
That's also what I was experience, so I can relate 100%!

So from my experience, here's how I've adapted to their voting system:

1. I do follow the "rules" and listen to at least 15 seconds for both songs.

2. After the 15 second marks, I can move the slider bar to "fast forward" to any part of the song. Usually I slide forward to about half way and listen for a while. If it's really great, I might listen all the way to the end or at least skip forward to somewhere near the end. This gives me a quicker overview of the arrangement and "vibe" of the song. Seriously, some songs (especially instrumentals) are designed to build up towards a climax, so a bit of patience is needed to hear it develop and unfold.

3. In some cases I'll listen to the first 5 or 10 seconds and then skip forwards to the middle of the song to see if it's still the same "bad" thing or if it gets better. So I'll complete the balance of my 15 seconds min. somewhere beyond the start of the song. This makes it more interesting and sometimes I'll discover a pleasant surprise.

4. If a song really "moves" me, it will keep my interest from start to finish, so that's an indication that I should vote "More" or "Much More".

5. If both songs are equally great, I vote "same", but usually I vote "same" because both songs are equally poor. wink

6. On occasion after I vote for a song, I find that a large percentage of judges didn't agree with my vote. It's a bit discouraging when that happens, but it's fairly rare - maybe only once per 10 or 12 battles.

7. Most of the time over 50% of the judges agree with me and that can range all the way up to 97% which is not too uncommon.

Room for improvement:
I think the only improvement OurStage could make is to add a feature that would allow distinguishing (or qualifying) a "same" vote. For example, both "same" voted songs are either equally: poor, average or fantastic!
They could tabulate that into the final scores. After all probably half the time two songs are either equally horrible or equally great, so the question is: "What do you mean by "same"?

I've suggested this before, but I think this time I may have explained it better and provided a bit more detail. Hopefully Daniel Palmer (aka Danny) will read this suggestion and pass it along to his management team. With all OurStage already has going for them, it would be a relatively simple feature to add. I believe it will be appreciated by the voters and also provide more meaningful input in the judging process. There's just too many times when two songs are a very close match.

Michael


There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

MichaelBorges.com
LicenseQuote.com
#603266 - 04/02/08 09:17 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Michael Borges (D)]  
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I don't think denoting a reason for "same" is necessary... due to all the other comparisons and rankings each song has already marked, it becomes judged just as well with a "same". Why? Because if it's the same as a song 100 points higher, it gets bumped up. If it's the same as a song 100 points lower, it gets bumped down. So the judge doesn't really need to say why. We don't rate any song, we just compare it to another.

#603295 - 04/02/08 11:12 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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This whole thing about judging puzzles me. There are no clear guidelines as to what we are supposed to be judging. Is it the song, the production or the technical ability of the band and singers or is it the whole thing. I too know that some songs are ropey after just a few seconds and some you have to listen till the long intro is finished to get to the crunch. That said I find that it is very common to find I am disagreeing with most. I judge the song and try to put the production and playing to one side. Some great productions but poor songs or some great players but trashy stuff that has been done to death are obviously being voted for against a better but poorly produced song.
I find it hard to make it a draw but on the few occasions that I have done so the vast majority agree. I did an experiment and deliberately voted two songs as equal when one was clearly better. Most people 87% agreed. I found that disturbing.
It is also a shame to have to vote two great songs against each other when the next two are crappy.
Perhaps a score of 1-100 for both songs would help. So less than fifty means they are both below average above 50 both are good but the one with the highest mark is the winner. Seems fairer.
The other point is with thousands of songs in some genres you cannot possibly hear and vote them all. What happens to the ones you miss. Especially when a crappy song can crop up several times. I have even had the same artist against each other with two different songs. Hardly fair on artists I have never heard.

#603298 - 04/02/08 11:19 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Nah, this is the simplest way they could do it. A 1-100 rating system would be awful. I've been on lots of sites where systems like that were used. No matter how many times you tell people, they'll never remember. Some people will see "50" as a "failing" grade. Others will see it as middle of the road. When dealing with masses of people, keeping it simple is all you can do. The only guidelines you "need" to judge by are which song you like more. No need to complicate it with anything else. Normal people can't be expected to do any more, and I'm not saying that to be insulting, but your average listener has a hard time separating songwriting from production.


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#603302 - 04/02/08 11:25 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Twisted as this may sound, I think it is this very uncertainty that makes the OurStage judging system probably the best yet devised. All those different people making their choices for all those different reasons... In the long run, each song gets several comparisons with other songs that have earned a particular rank...over time, everything gets jostled up and down for various reasons by the multitudes...and the ones that rise to the top have consistently outmatched other songs.

It ends up mirroring what makes ANY song popular to a general public. VARIOUS reasons. Sometimes production, sometimes the voice, sometimes the lyric...but in the end, the victors were chosen more often than the others. I think it works, and it's pretty hard to rig or bias a system like that.

#603303 - 04/02/08 11:33 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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But I still think if you allow people to listen to only 15 seconds and then judge...a huge percentage of those people will whip through the process, and it becomes in large part a Battle of the Intros.

#603305 - 04/02/08 11:40 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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You may be right, but at the same time, my song "Breathing You In" has an intro that is over a minute and a half (!) long. Yet it topped its genre and went on to #3 in the Finals. Jillian's song also had an intro over 30 seconds before any vocals came in at all, and it's primarily a vocal song. While I'm sure the support of our fans helped, if people ONLY judged by intros, I'm sure these songs would not have gotten very far at all. I for one listen to the first bit of a song and then immediately jump around. You DON'T have to wait 15 seconds to start jumping around, as long as you listen to 15 seconds total.

Last edited by Andrew Aversa; 04/02/08 11:41 PM.

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#603308 - 04/02/08 11:48 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Andrew Aversa]  
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Good point.

And if my notion was the final word, then you two must write terrific intros! grin

#603312 - 04/02/08 11:52 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Here's another question for Danny...which button gets clicked the most? Is there a noticable bias toward the left side or the right side?

I would bet that the most selected button is "same". Every time I press that, it seems as if a majority agrees...

In restaurant menu design, they say the eye travels first to the top right of a bi-fold menu. The items that restauranteurs want to push the most are often placed in that position. I wonder if the same sort of common tendencies apply to the judging. Is there an advantage to being on the left side?

Probably doesn't matter since songs are placed in different sides...but I wonder.

#603400 - 04/03/08 08:45 AM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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It is all down to opinion and popularity. For example if there are 100 people who like rock and 1000 people who like Country voting and an average country song by country standards is against a really good rock song by rock standards which one will win? How much does the popularity of the genre influence the final decision.

#603401 - 04/03/08 09:20 AM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Brian Austin Whitney Online content
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Actually Ourstage has proven that wrong Jim. I doubt there are more World Music fans out there than the other popular genres, yet that is what she won with this time. Our own awards seem to bear that out. For album of the year, we've had a Country Album, a Pop/Rock album, a Contemporary Christian album, a hard core Industrial album and a multi lingual Singer Songwriter album all win. That's pretty diverse. People really will vote for the best music, unless they're ignorant and intentionally unreasonable. Most folks can tell the difference between a bad song in their own favorite genre and a really good one in their least favorite. So unless they are being dishonest in their judging, they'll normally get it right far more often than wrong.

Brian


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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

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#603494 - 04/03/08 04:20 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
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That is nice to hear Brian. I hate it when people vote for genre or other factors rather than song quality. I know of sites and other type of comps where this is clearly the case.

#603504 - 04/03/08 05:02 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Brian & Big Jim,
I think I agree with your insights when voting strictly based on a "Song A vs. Song B" basis. For example in the finals I might tend to vote for a Jazz instrumental as compared to a Hard core Rap or Alt. Rock song just because I "grew up" with jazz, but that doesn't mean anything is technically wrong with the competeting song, it just comes down to my personal taste and preference.

Generally by the time we're in the finals (at end of each month) I'm voting for the song(s) that I would actually want to buy, or maybe hear at a live event. It comes down to my personal experience with the song and the fact that I really liked a great melody, hook or vocal performance, etc.

If it moves and inspires me it's a great song in my book... even if it's NOT the most commercially popular genre.

Michael


There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

MichaelBorges.com
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#603514 - 04/03/08 05:21 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Michael Borges (D)]  
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Good point I think personal bias will always be there it is only natural.
At the moment there are over 1200 songs in the APRIL rock section impossible to listen to them all but I have had the same songs come up several times against other songs. I did check their position and they are all over the place. It would make more sense to ensure that ALL different songs were judged randomly until you have heard them all. What happens to the songs you have not heard.... and do all the songs get judged... are some left on the shelf virtually unlistened to. How many people on average judge and for how many rounds? The answer to these questions must relate to how fair the comp is.

#603533 - 04/03/08 06:04 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Brian Austin Whitney Online content
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I believe their system will sometimes repeat songs so that all of them DO get listened to by an equal number of people... eventually every song has to be matched up with every other song, so it's no surprise that they repeat even if it was random. I screened an entire category last month and eventually got to every song being compared to every other. But often the sames ones came up early. But I didn't have the same 2 songs head to head more than once.

Brian


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jpfolkspro@gmail.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

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#603590 - 04/03/08 09:21 PM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
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Also, what one person sees may be misleading. Perhaps you saw the same song five times, and some none. But in the general pool of judging, they may all get their plays...just with different viewers.

#603628 - 04/04/08 12:03 AM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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I had a real bummer of a night last night and was unable to sleep. So, I judged songs over at OurStage....Jazz and Latin channels. I judged for over 4 hours. I have a Latin song, "Hot Day In Havana", at number 22...woooHooo!!!

But, I casually charted the songs I judged, over 200 judges. Of the 200+ that I judged, they all came up a similar number of times. It appears to be random but balanced. One of the other judges that I briefly "chatted" with got the same pairings that I did. If you judge long enough, over the collective judging period, it appears to me you will eventually hear all the songs in that channel (genre) an equall number of times. I cannot state that as a fact; but that is the impression I get.

The most difficult thing for me is to remember that with each paring, I am judging those two songs against one another...not against all the other songs. Thus, you must try to ignore your biases, assuming you have any, about the particular song you are listening to as it compares to the collective entries.

I enjoyed the process a lot. I heard a lot of really good music and some not quite so good music. And one thing I also find interesting is that after you have judged a paired competition, they tell you how your decision compared to everyone else who has judged that same pairing. I recommend everyone try it at least a couple of times.

Al

#603634 - 04/04/08 12:19 AM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Two Singers]  
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In the final rounds, the number of possible battles is equal to the number of songs in the round multiplied by that number minus one, divided by two. So in the final round in March, there were 37 songs. You could judge a total of 666 rounds ((37 * 36)/2). Every song gets paired up against every other song, but cannot compete against itself. It's almost definitely like this for normal rounds as well. They probably don't list the max combos because no one could humanly judge that many rounds tongue

Last edited by Andrew Aversa; 04/04/08 12:21 AM.

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#603649 - 04/04/08 12:55 AM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Andrew Aversa]  
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Very cool Andrew!
So it comes down to basic mathematics based on possible combinations, I think your formula makes sense!
Let's see... if there would be only 10 songs (for example) in the finals, that would be 45 (10 * 9 = 90 divided by 2 = 45)

The idea is that every song goes up against every other song available in the same "pool" of songs. Very cool system and amazing that few (if any) sites have tried to implement this approach before. I understand OurStage is filing for a patent on this whole voting process.

Michael


There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach

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#603722 - 04/04/08 11:44 AM Re: Our Stage - New JPF Community Partner (Feedback!) [Re: Michael Borges (D)]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,047
Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,047
Indianapolis, IN USA
Actually it seems to me that it said 741 possible judging rounds. (I know for sure it was over 700). Actually.. I've done an entire round early too to test it out. But then I am a freak of nature. I wanted to test how it all worked and took notes on each song so that once I'd heard them all, I could refer to the notes to keep them all straight. In that respect, I used part of our technique when we screen the JPF awards, only we're often using notes from multiple judges as well as our own.

I spoke at length with Daniel last night and he said he'll drop by here soon to answer questions. We also discussed some of the cool performance opportunities like Bonaroo and the Newport Folk Festival.

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

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