Dear Lynn, Ray, and Lyle,

thank you for your support, I'm just here trying to share, like I do in many of my posts.

Our buddy air, is focused on one song I wrote 7 years ago. I have hundreds of songs.

Two weeks ago I decided to block his posts, I can't read them. when he posts on jpf all I see is:

*** You are ignoring this user ***

So as far as I'm concerned with him, I've got my eyes closed, my fingers in my ears and I'm saying "la la la la la."

The unfortunate thing is none of us can succeed in songwriting on our own, we have make friends, build relationships and teams. First impressions matter. He's made quite a first (and last) impression with me.

Thanks again
I wish you all worlds of success with your writing,

Ande

Then you haven't looked very hard Ray
And I've read about 8 other songs of his all being cliche
Some "mentor" he would be
That's all I'm gonna say about him

airun,
Gee. Nice answer. Please post or re-post some of your songs/lyrics so I can have a look.

P.S. I usually don't post lyrics,I just get them ready to pitch to contacts. However my Publisher has indicated he is going to put up another Web Site and several of my songs will probably be there. Your songs???

Thanks Ray,

Hope your writing is going well.

Ande

I have been watching this thread to see where it would lead. I also have wondered how long Brian would let this continue.

One thing that will usually get Brian involved is a direct attack on a member, especially when it is unprovoked in any way.
I am not sure what Ande might have done to you, Airun, but this is Just Plain Folks and our motto here is We Are All In This Together.
Ande seems to understand that. He attempts to help others. Not by attacking them but by posting information that might help them become better songwriters. I don't think I ever remember seeing Ande say he was a great songwriter, or and expert.
If it was up to me you would have been sanctioned long ago. It is fine to do a critique on a song but to go and dig up a song and bring it into this thread, then proceed to tell everyone how terrible you think it is has me wondering just who you think you are. Then I think you called him a hypocrite?
I have only seen one lyric of yours. You sent it to me in a PM. Stating that you would not risk posting it for fear someone would steal the hook.
Well, let me say this, I don't think you have to worry about it.
(Actually, I wrote a song a couple years ago that has a very similar hook and story line. It was posted here on Lyric board three)

If you want to promote yourself as a great lyric writer then I suggest you post some credits to back it up. So far the only person here that knows how great you are is you.....Oh, wait a minute, you sent me one of your "great lyrics" and asked my opinion. Well....
I have been helped by Ande's posts. Not by his songs, but the information he has shared.
I'll give a little example of how that might work. I recently ordered a book written by one of the JPF mentors. The book was on songwriting. One Chapter in the book dealt with some of the Authors songs. Well, I did not like a few of the songs. But that did not take away from what I learned reading the book.

Oh! I saw this posted by you...
Some people make their living off writing cliche songs like diane warren and I'm sure there's others so he has hope

You are now going after Dianne Warren? One of the most successful songwriters in history?
Man you have one hell of a pair of Gonads I got to say that for ya.

I came so close to just taking a walk from this whole forum. But the next day, I remembered it is just one guy offending me to the core. The more I surf around, the more truly good people I find, and wow what a useful resource.

Airun, I won't jab you anymore--life's too short.

Hi Airun
(Airun wrote)
You might think I'm a jerk but I'm not I am just big on integrity
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The real trouble here is that you have not established enough integrity here YOURSELF to be the self appointed "integrity police"...you stated what you thought (and you were absolutely entitled and encouraged to do so),BUT... once was enough...now let everyone make up their own minds ! ! ! ! We are all big boys and girls, we will think for ourselves, thank you

Ande, please don't pull my posts from other sites into a discussion of yours unless I'm already part of it. Marc's little love song is no Yesterday. Yesterday has an almost classical melody and a beautiful title and lyric.

I think it's a mistake for a lyricist to settle for simplistic cliches and when someone calls attention to it, they say "look! Michelle has a simple lyric, too!" that's forgetting everything else that went into Michelle and songs like it.

I think it's also a mistake for a lyricist who can afford expensive demos to settle for simplistic cliches knowing their glossy demo will cover them up for less discerning listeners. That's taking a short term view of music. eventually that guy's gonna have to put his cards on the table and come up with some decent lines.

the fact is...writers write WHAT THEY CAN. a guy that can pen strong lines and hooks will, just like a guitarist who can really play won't overuse the same old blues changes.

There will always be an audience for treacly love songs with nice production. There will always be an audience for soaps about doctors who bone nurses in the broom closet. just because you can say there's a market for something doesn't make it any good. McD's is the busiest restaurant in town but I wouldn't take my wife there for our anniversary.

here's the best lyric writing tip there is...don't be boring.

For the people who want to see my work I have 353 posts and theres an option on my name that says "view posts"

Maybe next time I see a cliche song I should just say
Hey I loved it, it was great and I can sure hear Rascal Flatts singing this!

Every post I type is obviously my opinion for anyone who thought otherwise

And by the way Bill I never said I was a great writer
I know I have a few cliches in a few of my songs but I try my very best to avoid them at all cost and it doesn't make me a hipocrite, If he tried to avoid them I wouldn't have brought it up

thanks bill
touche, very well put

ande

Hey Robert,

Great to hear from you

I edited that post and poof it's gone from this thread

Like I've written before, it's a song I cowrote back in 2000, there's 2 other writers on it. We're unlikely rewrite it at this point.

thanks for your comments, Good luck with your music,
From what I've seen you're prolific as ever.

Ande

Hey Herbie,
great comments
thanks
Ande

Airun,
There are preachers that sin. There are diplomats who deliver insults. There are teachers with bad information. There are hair stylists that can't cut hair.

Nobody is perfect (well, I heard of one once, buy you know what they did to him). I don't think Ande is saying do as I say, not as I do. I think what he is saying is that nobody can follow all the rules all the time, but here are some lines painted along the side of the road. They won't prevent you from pulling over for a rest, or driving right off and over a cliff, but they are there, and if you keep your eye on them, you will improve your odds of reaching your destination.

So what if you don't like the song Eventually. So what if this is an example of when Ande pulled off to the side of the road. There was clearly enough room on the shoulder for him to get around the obstacle that stood between him and his destination. I believe this is evidenced by the support seen on this thread for the song in question.

Let it be. Let it be. Let it be. Yeah, let it be.
There will be an answer Let it be.

One final thought.
Those who can, do.
Those who can't do, teach.
Those that can't do or teach criticize and impune.

Pete, you said a mouthful.




Hi, airun. I had the pleasure of spending some time with Ande this past weekend. I learned alot about songwriting from him both from his posts and now, in person.

He is professional and one of the kindest, most sincere people I've ever met. He is the type of person who studies songwriting like it is a science. He's very serious about it. We all can learn from his knowledge and practice.

He has a way with people that is admirable-he helps them. He gives them good advice. He's nurturing. He takes the time to share what he's learned. He's excited about songwriting and wants others to be excited, too. He's very professional in his manner and approach with people. People respect him.

I've sort of kept quiet about this thread because you're entitled to your own opinion about lyrics or songs, in general. Obviously, it doesn't grab you but it grabs almost everyone else so there is something special about Eventually. I wish I'd written it.

thanks peterj

hope your writing is going well

ande

thank you Tricia
I very much enjoyed meeting you
I wish you the best with your writing

Ande

Did a bit more editing
Hope it helps, let me know if it does.

ande

Airun,

Who are you anyway? You are very mean and obviously have a chip on your shoulder. I find the people in Nashville that have the 'most' negative things to say about others usually are those that are the 'most' bitter about their own failures, although I'm sure this would never be the case with you.

What major cuts have you had? (Please list below)

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

Listen to "Somebody Like You" by Keith Urban. The lyric is fairly pedestrian, but it's such a great song. You can't just judge a lyric by itself. As much of an expert as you purport to be, you should know this. You have to consider the whole package. I'm a big fan of saying it differently, saying something new, having the 2nd verse say something other than a rehashing of the 1st verse, and having the bridge go somewhere else. I agree with you that some of these things don't happen on Ande's song. But you have a lot to learn about being a nice guy and being a supporter of your colleagues who are trying to do just that by offering their experience and wisdom.

In short, if you can't be constructive, please go away. You just annoy everyone with your bad attitude.

br

What cuts do you have? Curious. We'll listen

The overiding theme in the first post seems to be to keep it universal yet original.
That is what I have been persuing in lyric writing.
Sometimes to humiliating results. But I keep trying to refine myself with it.
What would go for Nashville I would think would be universal.
Even though I hav'nt done anything Nashville except attempting some lame country rock original once.

If there is politics or satire, than a cliche may help.
But of course, it should be somthing not heard a million times before.
Having words that read like a short story or poem in a lot of cases would be more boring in lyrics than cliches.
The biggest obstacle there seems to be is that everything has been done to death.

Even in the comedy world, if someone does anything similiar to a Richard Pryor or George Carlin, there is the sense that we have been here before.
It can be only improvised on with a different spin, but satire and dark humor has been done over in so many ways.
Same with lyrics and music.

And I am not one for creating a new genre and love anything rock.
But what can be done with that that already has'nt been touched off on?

I'm glad there is a post like this to make people think.

Yeah Matt , trying to create a song that is universal but original does have its difficulty, and all over the internet and songwriting books and forums, you see the avoid cliches advice clearly

I have high expectations of my lyrics and every other lyric I read I am critical about them because I know they can be way better than that, What some people think is brilliant I may think is crap

Somebody like you was co written by Keith Urban
But do you think if one of us wrote that, that anyone on here wouldn't mention the cliches and how bland it is?
Can't speak for anyone else, But I do know I would

Take care

As a post to Bill Rocker, the original message I was trying to get across was as so:

Ande has his own newsletter full of songwriting tips/advice
So I joined up and thought it would be cool
So then I did further research and then read the lyrics to some of his songs, and I got angry, the rhymes were weak and simple
And even though he's just trying to help, I felt ripped off

Like that seinfeld episode where Jerry buys a racket and he sees this guy whos supposed to be good using the racket (who also sold the same racket to Jerry), and he is not very good at it
Obviously Jerry felt he got used and ripped off like I did

He was not even following his own advice that he writes in his newsletter, which ticked me off as well
That is just me though, I could find the same advice on other websites also so the advice, which was copied, is still good
It is the concept, so that is what the whole ruckus was about
Should I have been less subtle, probably, sorry
I don't think I'll get lost but thanks for the invitation
I do not owe you any other response besides that

There are 3 lyrics forums here, airun.
I have a few you could call me on, if that does'nt annoy you too much.

Being compared to Keith Urban is actually kind of a compliment to me.

Hopefully I can songwrite even remotely that good one day to pull those lyrics through.

Everything in lyrics are words borrowed over time (at least 99.8%).
Phrases.
It seems to be more up to interpretation what is cliched.
I think of cliches as common phrases.
I look more at muti-themes. Not the same tired theme over and over again. And I don't look at necessarialy if the lyrics are cliched or not.
But some musicians are so good to listen to that there are exceptions to having just one theme.
Doing just love songs would be the typical example of what I mean by single themed musicians.

But not having "cliches" to a certain degree would seem to take a lot out of making a point in a song.

Dear Airun,

Thanks for addressing my comments. You felt ripped off, but if credentials were the crucial issue to you rather than the teaching skills of the teacher you sought, then why didn't you inquire about his credentials before hand...you know, finding out whether or not he had (ahem...roll eyes...)'independent' cuts rather than (nose in the air) 'majors', as you so demeaningly point out?

Please know that there's a big difference between "can't get cuts" and "haven't had cuts." Billy Montana wrote in this town for at least 7 years before FINALLY scoring a #1 with Sara Evans on "Suds in the Bucket". (He currently has the new Garth Single.) I suppose if Billy had taught you something in those first 6 years you'd have dismissed it as rubbish outright? Please also know that one person's passion might be teaching over working the tip sheet, another's passion might be pitching over teaching. That says nothing about one or the other's potential success at either. As I read what he wrote and find that not only is it informative, accurate, insightful, and helpful (yet imperfect), my need to know whether he had 25 chartbusters begins to fall by the wayside. Will Ande be my one and only source as I seek skill development? Probably not.

I think Ande's like the rest of us. He's a writer who has learned much and has much to learn. He just happens to be willing to share the former, and in an impressively organized fashion. What if you'd hired someone with 6 number ones in a single year who wasn't nearly as proficient in expressing his thoughts as Ande, who maybe said nothing more than 'keep writing....don't give up'? WOuld you then have felt like you'd gotten your money's worth? Judge soley by credentials these days and you just might wind up with Terrell Owens. ;>)

There are also writers in this town who've had ONE noteable cut and suddenly they're starting a graduate school in songwriting. They piss me off a lot more than the one's who haven't had cuts who have a passion for teaching about writing. I watch the writers flock to these one cut 'teachers' in droves, hungry not for writing skills, but ravenous to learn the secret formula for a shortcut to the brass ring. Vanity's like porn...it always sells, and no one knows that better than these writers who've had a taste of the real deal, but find that they aren't being offered seconds on the first trip back to the buffet. They give up and turn to selling out to fame hungry out of town writers. Yes, they hate what they do, and they do it because they've lost the passion for writing and they've sold out. It's a sad story for them and even sadder for the people who give them their money. I talk to these writers...many of them aren't really interested in writing songs...they're interested in success and fame. Come for success, you go home a failure. Come for the love of music, you just can't NOT stay.

Final note:

Dude, all ya gotta do is be nice to people. Don't forget, we're all on the same team. Your points are well taken, and I agree with just about everything you say regarding what you feel is important in a song (obviously very strongly, and I believe that that's good!) YOu obviously know quite a bit about what your talking about. I bet you're a good writer too, and you have a lot of passion for writing. I dig that. But we want to be your buddy, and if you tell us we suck, well, that just may slow down the whole process a tad. If you've had a difference of opinion with a member, then send him an email or call him up and bitch at him. Don't tell 60 million readers he's a shitty writer just cause you're pissed off at yourself for committing to something without doing your research. That's just not a nice thing to do. It also makes you look a lot worse than him.

I can't speak for Ande, but if you were one of my clients, and you wrote me a NICE letter and said, "Dude, it's just not what I thought it was...I should have looked more closely and that was my fault. But I gotta say, I'm just not feeling satisified with our deal", you know what? I'd give you a refund in a frickin' heartbeat. But if you viciously attacked my art in front of a huge audience? Well, I might just not get around to answering your emails.

A little courtesy and respect go a long, long way. How about we all start all over again, eh? You have much to offer, it's clear by what you write. We need ya.

Sincerely and with respect.

br
www.writethismusic.com

Bill,

You seem to have well thought out ideas and have brought a lot to the boards in the short time you have been here. Welcome again.

Kevin

Thanks Kevin. That means much.

Sincerely,
br

P.S., in response to your emial, let it be known to the world that I don't have any major cuts....again (I state that clearly on my website as I have on this forum.) Or should I say I don't have any major cuts YET!

But I believe 2008 is my year. I've got a couple goodies. Maybe you and I can write a hit. Anyone with your fire, passion for writing, and mind numbing, if not brutal, honesty has an open invitation on my writing calender.

2 years ago I was very bitter, very pissed off, and I almost left Nashville to go back to Rockville Maryland where I could be a big fish. Someday I'll share what happened to keep me here (too tired tonight), but I will say that when I finally escaped the "i hate everything...radio, Clear Channel, Record companies, the Bluebird, ANYTHING related to Nashville, songwriting, most people, all writers, myself, you name it" trap I knew I had a chance. Not saying that's your trap or that you're even in one...but that was mine and I had to escape.

I don't mean to presume but I do think you and I have some things in common.

br

Hey bill

great to hear from you

I enjoyed reading what you wrote

I got tired of dealing with airun
So air is the only jpf member i've ever blocked

wish you the best with your songwriting

ande

Ande,

Thanks dude. Glad to be back. I've been doing a lot of traveling. Hope to check in more regularly.

later.

br

Howdy Bill, His credentials were on his website and I agree with everything you said, sometimes I'm too honest and forget that saying peoples work suck is insensitive
It doesn't really happen that much anymore, I've just decided not to comment on a lyric that I find strongly cliche
Most of the time I am thinking they want to pitch the song too which may not be the case for most of them, So I should find out beforehand what the song is for
I'm not much of a P.R. man but I am sorry to Ande and everyone else

An interesting lesson here. I got offended earlier in this thread when I was posting my very first posts...so much that I decided this place wasn't for me and I meant to go away for good. But then I decided to read a few other sections just to test the waters...that's when I was hooked. I realized just how large, generous and supportive this community was, and I began to see the advantage of posting some of my work here for critique. I also looked at other songwriting sites...they seem to lack the traffic and often devolve into little cliques that I just didn't feel were worth penetrating. So I decided I was just being angered by an opinion and came back within a day. Since then, I have learned extraordinary lessons. I've rewritten old songs and wrote new ones. I've also enjoyed and learned from Airun's posts. I've developed a thicker skin, but I've also learned there is a way to point out a negative without suckerpunching someone, or de-motivating them. So, all in all, I've found even the negative experiences on this board can lead to a positive learning experience.

Now my philosophy on posting---as a result of this thread, really---is to promote the honing of our mutual craft...and to avoid road rage.

Lyle,

Well said. I believe your remarks reflect the hearts and minds of many who've engaged this thread.

br

Airun,

Your comment at the end...not knowing whether or not someone's trying to pitch the song...is one that's grossly underestimated in importance by just about everyone. I'm so glad you brought this up.

I get songs from people all the time, for evaluation, and I just ASSUME they're interested in getting the song cut by a major. That begs a very different kind of critique than one offered to someone who's in the novice stages of craft development. I've learned to ask what the intentions of the writer are. Naturally everyone's ultimate goal is a major cut, but does the writer really think THIS is the song for Alan Jackson's next record? If the answer is yes they need to be prepared for accepting world class criticism (not that my criticism is 'world class' in quality, but criticism geared for art competing in the top markets.

I've said this before: in no other arena are so many so clueless (yours truly included) about level of skill and accomplishment than in the arena of the musical arts, particularly songwriting. Acting might run a close second. I thought I had 10 songs that were ready for major artists, so much so that I moved to a new city, and I wouldn't play you those songs today. I still wonder how could this happen to a fairly reasonable, not too insane person like myself, but I think I have discovered part of the answer.

My theory is 2 part:

1.that it's almost impossible to quantify songwriting skill. Many sports skills are easy to quantify...how fast, how long, how low, how high, how many, etc., but how do you quantify a great song lyric? You can believe with all your heart that you're ready for the olympics but if your bench press number is hovering a little above average.... In songwriting it's not easy to stick a number on a song regarding it's overall quality. I've attempted to come up with a system of quantification that I use in song evalutations that scores songs, but it's still highly subjective. It's useful as a first step....

2. it's impossible to appreciate the difference between good writing and great writing without learning something ABOUT writing. When I first started out I thought my songs were great because I managed to get them to rhyme, I said something about something that was important to me, and because they came from my heart (which, of course, I rhymed with start). But when I took a class in trout fly tieing my gross inadequacy was quite clear within the first few moments of tieing my first fly.

I get some really cool songs that are just really cool songs because that's what they are...really cool songs. Are they all ready for Alan Jackson or Martina McBride? Some are closer than others, but most aren't close in their first state. Do some of them move me to another dimension? Yeah, sometimes they do. Are they ready for creating joy in the hearts of those that hear them? Absolutely. Could they be 'gotten into shape' for Alan Jackson? Maybe, maybe not. Is the writer hell bent on becoming a professional songwriter no matter what? Maybe, maybe not. If so, is the writer ready to do the work and accept the criticism that goes with that? Maybe, maybe not.

If ya play a little baseball, and you have a bit of a knack for it (or maybe you don't have a knack but you simply LIKE playing baseball), does that mean you need to show up at Red Sox spring training as a walk on?

If I had a knack for playing baseball I'd need to explore local leagues (writers nights), identify the local talent (writers with experience who've maybe had some indy cuts or some holds), start training with weights and doing a couple hours each day on the treadmill (writing all the time, taking classes, reading books, going to song camps), studying other players, and scouting their unique abilities, etc. (studying other writers, identifying their strengths, etc.), etc. etc. etc.

Publishers hear from a LOT of walk ons...players with no local experience who are trying to enter the big leagues out of the box. We also hear from a lot of home town winners, maybe even reginal winners, who are doing eveything they can to become better players and are asking for help from more experienced players who have managed to at least break into the minor league, if not the majors, knowing full well that qualifying for the minors is a rite of passage toward becoming a major league player who's face is seen by millions during the world series.

Should anything less be expected or anticipated in the arena of songwriting?

Thanks for pointing this out.

br
www.writethismusic.com

Airun,

p.s. I almost forgot...I can't speak for everyone, but thanks for your explanation and I accept your apology. IMHO that was a good thing.

br

Hi Bill

All of your threads are very helpful, insightful and are creating examples that all can relate too in one way or another.

I have to say your observations and analogies are excellent. The way your thinking makes sense and you obviously study the angles of the music game I use the comparison between music & sports all the time and felt like I was the only one who gets it.

Too add ro your theories, Sports are much like music.
1- They are two things that
anyone can pretty much do and we can all do them just for fun. Guys play softball on the weekend and others get together and jam. They can both be a very simple child like game or hobby. And one day you may be rich & famous for playing that same game. They both involve the word Play

2- Fierce competition - Team work - Relying on others - Role Players - Disappointments - Traveling being away from home - Dealing with being rejected -
The feelings are the same.....

The only thing that's so much tougher about the music business is there are Fewer To No Outlets No built in system. Unless your a classical musician who can use the school system to advance. Songwriters and other players don't have that in the same way at all.
Sports have the school system you play in a the little league, if your good and dedicated you make the high school team, if you are good and dedicated you can get to the college team, if you are good and dedicated you get scouted by the pros.
With Scholarship oppurtunities all the way along to the big bucks.
Even the classical players who may get the scholarship don't make the big bucks.

In contemporary music you get nothing... you're on your own.

Hi Mike.

Thanks for the kind words! it's my hope that others can benefit from what I've learned, and vice versa. My secret motive in all this is to find a brilliant lyricist for my music.

Your sports analogies are great. It's true, there's no 'in place development' plan for rock, country, pop music... Jazz, marching band and classical you can at least touch on in school, but the rest is learned in the basements of other obsessed artists you hope to meet somehow who's not only not insane but one who you actually find common interest with. What's worse is those environments aren't always the healthiest. Sports has that positive, socially embraced and accepted component to it. Musicians aren't viewed quite the same way.

Thanks for your addtional development to my little theory. It mystifies me more than anything how someone can think they're ready for the big leagues when they're not even ready for sand lot. I got a song today that was so absolutely, incredibly, horrifically, astoundingly BAD that I almost couldn't bear to listen to it, but this artist was CONVINCED the song would be a PERFECT MATCH for Reba McIntyre. I'm like, "how can you possibly think that????" I KNOW if they heard something LIKE it on the radio, they'd be like, "Huh?" But because they wrote this song, they think it's ready for Reba. Go figure....

thanks again.

br

Hi There,

99.9 per cent of songs sent to publishers are so bad , you ask yourself are they tone deaf? Do they ever listen to the radio? Have they ever read and absorbed the best books on song writing.

This site is full of little groups of friends who want praise not appraisal,

Just read the critiques, do they ever mention , Composer tricks like Bass inversions, Change of Pace, Prosody, Varying the starting point of each phrase, say a pick up or the first downbeat.

Varying the chord count per measure, between verse and pre chorus and/or chorus.

No trite comments like " I like this thanks for sharing."

A few have small time Publishers who have difficulty in writing a letter of introduction , let alone writing a modern interesting lyric, that stands out from the rest.

Whenever we get a C.D. with a pile of songs (More Than Three)
we never get past the first song, How many hits do they think they have written?
As for Sound Click the charts are a joke.


just recently I tuned into the sound click Country charts,
And listened to probably the worst male vocal and the worse female vocalist ever, and probably the worst songs written in that genre.

At number two and three in the country charts
One was by a guy who wore the typical cliché Stetson, the other was some women with a child like voice, singing about dreaming .

Both lots of lyrics were amateur, infantile , and full of cliché
The song by The Stetson Clown, was in very bad taste , completely tactless, and it was not even clever in a distasteful way, Like some hip hop and rap songs, can be.


Both were dreadful , how do these awful songs get to the top of these charts, do they pay ,? And are people down loading them , for a laugh because they are so bad.



I understand that it’s a way of getting your songs heard, but it’s also a quick way to get a bad reputation, if your songs are as bad as these songs were at the top of the “Modern Country Chart ,


I enjoy music of any genre, if it’s well written and well sung
And produced, but the fact that anyone can up load a song,
Would put off any genuine Publisher or Artist looking for new material, it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Best Wishes Matt .

Hi Again,

I also used to get Andes Daily E mail page, It was most enjoyable
and Like most I looked forward to reading it , he is a deep thinking man who was happy to share his thoughts and observations
with many of us.

To citicise his lyric/s in this open fashion, is not correct,
he does not deserve that.

Matt Stoneham

Hi

I have just read this whole thread, yes really! - Ande posts a useful set of well tried and widely accepted song-writing tips/guidelines, then ends up getting slagged off for his trouble. This is a tip sheet on how to improve lyrics. It's a useful list, some may want to check against other may not, what's the big deal? Just because Ande may have a one or two cliches in his lyrics does not make him a hypocrite; Any more than if I suggested to someone that they should keep a diary if they want to manage their time better, when I don't use one myself. Does that make me a hypocrite? Does my advice become bad?

A more constructive thing would be to work out how we can add to the list (if lists are your thing) or discuss exceptions to it, and why they work. My personal view is if you get too obsessed with checklists, syllable counts, structure etc, your lyric runs the risk of losing soul and originality. Maybe some want to take the painting by numbers approach to extremes but if you want a good song, it will need soul to connect with the listener’s psyche and it must feel right.

Nige

Hi Nigel,

Yes lists should not be taken to extremes, but if you are writing to make a little money or for the want of hearing your song sung on the radio, T.V. that certain rules come into play,

So many writers think it's all inspiration and hardy change from their first so called ispired draft, that's nonsense.
beacause we are writing and composing from our thoughts,
first drafts are bound to be cliche.

Re writing is essential honing it down till it's the very best you can do, and that may not be good enough.

In the same token a listener can only react if his brain has
a reasonable helping of the subject matter, and he/her is in tune to the voice and the emotion. comedy songs apart.

Brittany sings songs for young people who are growing up
The majority of country singers sing songs that apeall to women from 25 to 35,.

Catchy songs do not need to be novels, just a fresh way of saying things in a new and apealing way.

What I listen for in a song is the singers voice, and the song
needs to match the image of that voice, take Sex Bomb Tom Jones
a great lyric, great music matched to a great singer.

I dont know of anyone on todays country scene who can bring a lump to my throat like Wille Nelson.

But the song must be very good as well.

Good writing is the answer, prosody between your lyric and the music, of course we can bend the rules.

But without rules, familiar format ,a catchy hook, and clever chord harmony, all you have is songs fit only for a vanity album.
that no one can, or wants to remember.

Sincerely Matt Stoneham

Yep, Matt,
My Publisher told me much the same thing about most of the songs he received for Publishing consideration. Songwriters you need to do your homework before pitching your songs. A Good basic Guitar/Vocal is OK but if you can't sing very well have a demo service do it for you.

Putting songs on a Web Site that aren't ready is a no,no.

Rough drafts in most cases definately need to be refined.
I have done a few retakes of the several recordings I have up and intend on doing a few more retakes.
But there are some recordings that actually seem to be killed and would be better off left the way it is.
I feel very atmospheric when I record.
Everything is for the moment.
That does'nt mean that that moment can't be exchanged for even a better one.
I wonder how many here may have thought that their rough draft was better?

There are probably more than a few one take artists on the net.

I usually know if I have a song idea that is more workable right from the onset.
I like to do retakes and take advice so I can make what I do more of a shared thing than just my thing.
That makes the compromising worth it and can make a song better.
Thank God for forums for me to do that.
It is easy to get stuck in a rut without as much immediate information on a given work.
I want to do the impossible and get it straight upon that first draft.
I have even considered music school.

But if I had to refine a song to the point to where it is a shell of it's former self, I always have to do a gut check if my heart is really in that.
Feeling inspired is of upmost impotance to me.
It may not give me praise or sell me, but any musical tip out there can not teach inspiration.

Hi Bill

I understand completely. I work mainly in Modern Rock/Pop Alternative but I have been involved in the Dance music world and R&B as well in the past.
I also study the game and the angles and have been for a long time. I still scratch my head.
People need confidence to get anywhere but can lose sight of the realities quickly.
What many don't know is even a bad song has to be a good song.
I can hear a hit song and it can really offend my musical senses in many ways but I can still understand and figure out why it's a hit, ya know for the most part.
Some I can't find that reasoning out for even with stretching it and being open minded.

Of course you have to allow for the Artist writing there own songs. That can often mean sub par material getting by because hey "I'm A Star"
But that's part of the rewards for getting there. Trace back o that artist and you will always find there break through song was a real good one.
That's what we can all lose focus of the "The Break Through Song"

Anyway sometimes when we hear a large dose of songs that aren't great the bar gets lowered and we all feel we deserve a chance.
I heard a song the other night by Brad Paisley that wasn't just bad it was an embarrassment. All I kept thinking was how does this guy sleep at night Don't know if he's the writer or someone actually had the nerve to submitt this...
But the sad thing is it got cut and is a hit.. which proves to everyone with a brain that they can sell whatever they want whenever they want, as long as they put it out and make it seem like it's hip (force it actually) the people can be brainwashed.
That song was called "Tick" or "Ticks" To be open minded i have heard Paris Hilton songs better

Lame lyrics are one thing, very common in todays scene but this was such a bad stretch I just cringed in disbelief. The big payoff was "I wanna check you for Ticks" lol... And where are supposed to go ; wow how clever? How sexy? How funny? more like How Come? Please Brad Play your guitar more and say NO to these songs sometimes.... So anyway what songwriter wouldn't believe they had something decent with songs like that and quite a few more coming out of Country everyday. Artsist also race to have a new song constanly, have a better song that lasts longer, you're already well off financially make it about the music again for a few minutes....

Thanks Bill I know you understand....

I believe paisley co wrote that and is very proud of himself...

I don't even think "Give it away" is a good song
Heck it got song of the year , Now what hurts the most is the most impressive song in the 00's in my opinion

Mark Wills covered it (Pop)
Rascal Flatts (country)
Joe O'Meara (Pop)
Bellefire (pop)
Cascada (Dance)

3 different genres of music, I think

How it didn't want a grammy I don't know
These are the kinds of songs that people should be trying to for
Just my opinion though

Hi Guys,
As Nigel said it's better to talk about writing in general, rather than picking on one particular person, who has done nothing wrong.

Let's all remember that there is a big gap in the quality
of songs posted here , from what the pros' are writing.

There are one or two very good story tellers, but their work needs condensing.

Even top writers right bummers now and then, ever bought a Kris Kristoffersen Song Album.
When he was good he was very very good, but when he was bad.

Somebody pointed out a song by Keith Urban, the lyric looked less than ordinary, but the music compensated for it, that's the business.

If the Brad Paisley song made money, someone is doing something
right.
Some songs get there by the music others make it because they have great lyrics, a few get buy because the public like his or her voice.

Dianne Warren writes in many genres, and I think most would agree is an outstanding composer lyricist.

Yes there are a few little publishers? that will sign up anything
I believe I know most of these, through my work.

Their submissions are binned by any legitimate A n R office or Legitimate Publisher,or Artist.

Keep up the constructive comments chaps, remember we are all a long time dead.

Dont let's get too personal with each other, we all right crap now and then, but crap is a great fertiliser, and it can lead to some beauty's.



Matt Stoneham

Hey Mike

You know the scary thing? I went to a site called smart lyrics and looked at what people had to say about this song. Ya know what? They loved it. Thought it was real funny. Some said it was the best song ever written. (ok I lie they said it was the bestest song ever written). Some even said it was a wonderfull love song. I thought the one I wrote about the girl asking the guy to twist her top off (Beer top) Was bad in this department. I think it beats ole brads lyric hands down. But this just goes to show what people think music is these days. And Gene Simmons wants to blame college kids for the decline of the music biz. I think songs like this are more to blame. In fact songs like this are exactly why I don't listen to the radio anymore sheesh.
Derek

Hi Derek

I put the video on of "Ticks" just before to show my wife I didn't say anything.
She went "No, Oh man you have got to be kidding right" ?
Funny? it wasn't.. Bad it was! Now I also listened to the song "Online"
Okay that song is lame BUT I can still see the appeal in it and appreciate the cleverness. Also the hook was much better. So I'm not against this particular artist
but he should be a bit embarrassed not proud don't you think.
They call him the new this and the Eddie Van Halen of country and singer/player/songwriter...He's more like The David Lee Roth I guess (funny guy) When he watches John Mayer doesn't he feel like "duh" Do you think Mayer would do such a ridiculous thing as that.

That's what I mean man a little sense of pride... Like All the artists in my business (the ones who know better are gonna think what of me? ) You don't have to live by that but geez... I picked up one of his CD's I wanted to check out the hype... Maybe if he would have played some guitar on his own album I wouldn't have sold it on Ebay after one listen.

Anyway My wife turned to me and said this is about as appealing as a song about gynocological examinations. lol..
She said hey why don't you just write a song about a Pap Smear
How about this lyric....
Honey right after I finish this beer"
I wanna give you a Pap Smear lol... stupid right? or are Ticks supposed to be much cuter? lol....

I love giving props to all kinds of artists and songs but this was just one of those where you insult my intelligence by trying to say "well it's a hit right"?
I have been very good this year in not ripping into things especially when it has no relevance on my life. But I couldn't let this one get by.

The thing that bothers me most about these kinds of songs is they try SO HARD to force something that is NOT appealing or a far stretch to try to come off like they are clever and unique songwriters. It was a bad idea but they proved that doesn't matter.
Listen I don't expect the people to know any better and I have said it 1 million times
they will buy whatever you show them. that's how our Country works..
We put medications on TV commercials where the side effects are DEATH and people buy them, oh yes they sure do!

But industry people and artists like Brad Paisley who are signed to Aritsa records should know a little better. Most of his songs show me that he wants to be recognized as a clown... hey that's cool I love clowns

Speaking of clowns I'm off to see my doctor in a few hours i better get some sleep..

Hey Mike

I'm with ya on the clown doctors lol.

Also with you on Brad. I think sometimes people get so noticed in the public eye that they try to do something lame just to see what people will think. For an example find me more than two good songs on the Magical Mystery Tour Album (I mean classic timeless songs) The Beatles as great as they were made huge errors in their careers (Both together and seperately) All you have to do is take George's classic "Something" (Which even though a Beatle song he kinda wrote it on his own) And compare it to Ringo's Solo HIT? "You know it don't come easy" or even one of George's Others such as "If you want it here it is come and get it" Which by the way was considered to be a pretty good song.

I Guess what I am getting at here is sometimes you get so big you try for mediocrity because you can't live up to the legend. That's why people as dynamic as Kurt Cobain couldn't handle continuing to live cause it was a constant struggle to try to keep doing something real and original. One interesting piece of that is after his Death a bandmate started up a band called foo fighters. At first I really liked what he was doing kinda pop rock catchy stuff with half way decent lyrics. Didn't even hurt that he did a cover of Gerry Rafferty's Baker Street. Now every new track they do is the same ole thing. I can't listen to them anymore not even the stuff I once liked because it's just too cookie cutter.

My but I do ramble lol. At any rate I don't think Brad is as bad as all that but we must remember even elvis didn't get it right everytime Vegas? Jump Suit? 70s gaudiness? Elvis? yikes lol. And yet even to this day that's how the king is remembered.
Hope things go well at the doctors!
Blessings
Derek

Edit ok I did see that Magical Mystery Tour has more than two memorable cuts however both penny lane and Strawberry fields forever where sposed to be on Sgt Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band lol. That leaves Hello Goodbye and all you need is love lol

Ok, I'm taking a chance here on losing the respect of lots of JPF readers and participants :>0. I think Check You For Ticks is very well written. Do you 'like' the song? No, and that's totally cool. But are you saying the song isn't well crafted or are you saying that song just flat out shouldn't have been written because it's such a bad idea. If you are saying the former, I'm interestefd to know what it is about it that is poorly written. Your wife's reaction "You've got to be kidding" when she heard the hook speaks louder to the issue that the concept was the bone of contempt. But if we applied the standards we use to critique ourselves as songwriters I'd be very surprised if we'd come away in unnanimous agreement that it doesn't measure up from a song craftsmenship perspective. Of course it's all subjective...or is it. I think "I hate that song because of what it is, what it says, and what attitude it portrays" often gets confused with "That song is just poorly written." Anyone agree? Those who don't, what is it about the song specifically that says 'bad writing' to you? I'm just curious, truly not trying to be argumentative. The thing that I was so impressed with on that one was that he had the guts to tackle it and did without looking like a complete idiot. But others obviously thought he DID look like a complete idiot so what do I know.

Musically I think it's very strong, both melodically and conceptually (chord structure, progression, arrangement) although you might beg to differ on that and I fully respect your opinion if you do. But what about it from a strictly songwriting craft to you take issue with? I'm not married to it either way so I won't fight you...at worst I'll disagree.

I think this kind of stuff is what these boards are all about...discussing, agreeing, and disagreeing on what defines a bad song, a good song, and a great song. I wonder if we'll ever really know. If we don't I do believe we'll become a tiny bit better as writers for having discussed it. But again...what do I know. :>)

br

p.s. and reading back I didn't mean to ask you the same question "what do you think makes it bad as a song" 20 thousand times.

Hi Bill,

I'm following you yes it is good to discuss these things and it'a hard to let personnal
opinions fly a little. But first let me mention something to my friend Derek.

Derek - I hear ya... Only The Beatles are not a good example. They are actually never good to bring up in any music business conversations really. lol....
I can't find 2 Bad songs on "Magical Mystery Tour" and millions would probably agree. The Beatles were so good it's not even fair to bring them into anything
Also few will remember Brad Paisley in 10 tears never mind 40 years.
Your right Elvis ia much better example . And Brad could never be like Elvis no one could actaully. He's an Icon that trancends just music.

And remember elvis did that at the End of his career.. not in the beginning.

Oh and thanks for the support with my health i greatly appreciate you for many things pal