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Co-writer
by John Lawrence Schick. 12/14/19 03:21 PM
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Loss
by Ricki E. Bellos. 12/12/19 03:34 PM
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Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.
By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
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#548656 - 10/13/07 12:44 AM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: Anthony T. Wilkes]
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Hummingbird
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my question is (even though it is not good on your voice) what is the proper way to yell/scream while singing and do the least amount of damage and how to protect your voice after you scream. if anyone has any advice I do hope to hear from you In my opinion there is no healthy way to yell/scream if you want to protect your voice from damage. "The louder your voice, the harder the vocal folds slap against each other. There is a limit to their ability to absorb this shock without causing structural damage to the vocal folds." In other words, yelling can cause permanent damage to your voice, and there is no way to repair that damage. I would consider it unethical for myself or any other vocal instructor to advise you that it is okay to scream under any circumstances. http://www.bluelanternpress.com/Franco-Jan04.pdfHummin'bird
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#548782 - 10/13/07 01:53 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: Monica L. Yasher]
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Emily Sanders
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Anthony, Through proper vocal technique you can use your voice to project powerful sounds that, while they aren't "screaming", may produce a similar effect. I can't say it strongly enough: protect your voice by getting vocal training!!!! Just like athletes, who invest a lot in their coaches and trainers, singers need to maintain good vocal health with proper technique and trinaing. Happy singing!  Emily
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#549034 - 10/14/07 08:48 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Emily Sanders
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Hi, Big Jim, You're one of the very rare singers that is blessed with a voice that can take a lot of use without too much damage  Most singers' voices will suffer with the combination of lots of vocal use in the face of little or no technique....However..as you have stated...there are certainly exceptions!! Many of us ( myself included) who ahve voices that seem to need a lot of work to maintain a healthy tone are probably mroe drawn to the idea of vocal training. Emily
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#549335 - 10/16/07 12:36 AM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Hummingbird
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Since I make my living teaching people who have been told they can't sing, how to sing, and then go and watch them sing at open mics and in musicals and in choirs, you know I'm going to disagree with you. I would never promise anyone they would sing like Mariah or anyone else. The only person you can sing like is you, and it's unhealthy for the voice to try to make your voice sound like or sing like anyone else.
What I do say is, there is a voice, and with the right approach, that natural authetic sound can be accessed, if we can learn to let go of strain, tension, trying, & bad habits. And you will never convince me that someone who longs to sing... but can't sing on key... can't learn to sing, because I have.. oh at least a few hundred students who can prove you wrong. I have been teaching for 11 years and any "tone deaf" person who has been willing to do the work has always recovered from that affliction and has progressed to the point where they could sing entire songs on key.
This is what I say. Could you talk when you born? Could you write when you born? Could you walk when you born? Could you play the guitar when you born? No. You learned how to do those things, and many other things. So there is no earthly reason why people who have difficulty singing cannot learn to sing correctly, given the right kind of holistic instruction and encouragement. And I would very very insulted if any of my students said that I simply teach to make money off of them.
I teach because I love relating to adults who on a creative journey of self-growth. I teach because I love watching and hearing my students make tiny steps towards the goal of singing freely without fear. I teach because it brings meaning to my life and hopefully healing to my students, who have struggled, as I have, with shyness and self-esteem and lack of belief in themselves.
I invite prospective students to meet with me for an (free) hour and chat about who I am and what I do and what my philosphy is... and then I offer them a discounted first lesson. So if they sign on, they know exactly what they are going to receive from me in exchange for tuition. They get all of me, everything I know about singing, about creativity, and about life. I tell my students I consider myself part singing teacher, part therapist and part creative guru.
Teaching is my passion, that's why I do it. If I had lots of money and I didn't need to support myself, I would teach for free because it brings so much to my life. I would not be the person I am today if so many people had not honoured me by sharing themselves and their voices and their process with me.
That being said, unfortunately not all singing teachers and vocal coaches are cut from the same cloth. Some make dubious claims and some don't know what they are doing. I could write more about to look for in a vocal teacher but I believe there already is a thread about that. If anyone is interested, just PM me.
Hummin'bird
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#549455 - 10/16/07 01:45 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Hummingbird
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However with no experience of the genre of pop/rock how can you teach someone a style that is so opposite and alien to yours?
- I don't purport to teach students those styles & I say so right from the start. I'm not a pop/rock coach, I'm a singing teacher. I don't set out to change their style of singing except teaching them what works for the voice and what doesn't. I can give someone a good start in accessing their voice, learning how it works, giving them the tools to maintain it, giving them the tools to know what to do when they get into a problem. Then they can move on to someone coaching in those styles if they wish. While they're with me, they bring the music they wish to sing and we work on getting technique into the music without losing their natural qualities. I work with songwriters who want to perform/record their own stuff, too.
-That being said, I don't teach styles of singing. I teach people who CAN'T sing HOW TO SING and give them the basic tools and confidence to go and sing whatever they want to sing.
- my philosophy is that once you discover and release your natural sound you can use your developed voice to sing any kind of music you wish. And you won't sound like an opera singer because you will understand how to apply the tools of healthy singing to rock or pop or jazz or bluegrass. And you won't sound like an opera singer because it takes years and years and years of training to sound like an opera singer. I don't teach opera singing. I will get someone started in terms of releasing their voice, but I tell them after 6 months they will need to go to the conservatory.
-I think any method that deals with mechanics only and doesn't address the fact that the voice is part of our human identity, or the fact that our self-image is reflected in the sounds we create, is leaving out a very important aspect of singing. In other words, I believe that 'technique' and 'method' must also embrace, support, encourage, and reveal the artistry & spirit of the student. I believe it is unethical for a teacher to impose their method on a student. I believe it is a teachers job to LISTEN to the student with ALL of their senses and follow the lead of the voice & psyche present in the room. The teacher MUST adjust their approach to each individual student, and each individual voice. I tell my students, I work organically with the person in front of me in the present moment, in the now, helping them to build awareness of their tension / restrictions / holding backness, starting from exactly where they are. I tell them there are no promises... but that you cannot know what you are capable of unless you walk the path of discovery. I never thought I'd be a performing songwriter, never mind a singing teacher, and I never thought I'd be singing in an opera chorus, or with a bluegrass trio, and I never thought I'd be producing my own music & getting publishing deals for it. But if I hadn't had the tenacity to stick to my guns in the face of people telling me (like you did that young girl) that I didn't have what it takes... I wouldn't be where I am today. I'd still be working in an insurance company, wondering where all the music went.
-People work with me because they wish to grow beyond where they are, remove limitations, blossom into more than what they have been, progress beyond their current programming... and the method that we use to water that growth is called 'singing' but it is much more profound than that. I know, because I was healed through the creative process as I walked the path of discovering my own voice, which was hidden away under years of being put-down, stepped on, and abused. Through the healing journey of releasing my own voice and helping others release theirs, I came to feel that I have value as a human being. And if I can help my students believe in themselves the way my teachers helped me, then that will make my efforts worthwhile.
Just because someone does not follow or adopt your own musical standards, ethics and philosophy does not make them wrong or a bad person. -Your post said that vocal coaches prey on the naivity of 'untalented' singers who have no hope of getting anywhere with it just to make money. In other words, you said vocal coaches rip off naive untalented students. And that generalization applies to me and all the wonderful people I have worked with over the past 17 years, who helped me go from a not-that-great shy singer to a confident singer people respect. So you can bet I'm going to step up and tell you that you are wrong.
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#549609 - 10/17/07 01:13 AM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Joined: May 2005
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Hummingbird
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She thought that with a few lessons she could be a millionaire pop star. What would you do honestly if such a person came to you?
I would tell her the truth. That it will take (a minimum of) one to (more likely) three and possibly more years of daily practice and weekly lessons to grow her instrument into something that would be considered professional, and that there is no earthly way she (or anyone else) will ever sound like Mariah because Mariah is Mariah. And that we don't need another Mariah. We need individual artists who are artists because they have something to say that is real, individual artists who write their own stuff and sing from the heart with their own authentic voice. A singer's job is to find themselves in their voice and reveal it. It can be done, but it takes a whole heck of a lot of work and commitment to make any dream happen. It took me 8 years to find the voice I have now.
I would also tell her some home truths of what it means to be an artist, and how you start by learning your craft & honing your skills and playing open mics and learning to write songs and grow into touring with your band and making next to nothing while you pay your dues over many years, and that there is no guarantee of success. You must do it because you love music & you are passionate about performing music.
I would say.... suppose today you decided you wanted to play the guitar as well as Santini or write songs like Jason Blume. It's possible, if you do the work. How hard do you think they worked at it? How focussed were they on their goal? How long do you think it took them to "become"? That's right, years.
She would likely not want to hear that, and so she would go elsewhere. And that's because she isn't really interested in singing at all. She just wants to be famous.
I was talking to a student today about this restrictive idea that I often see in the media and is reflected in your post. It's the idea that if you can't already sing, you don't have the talent to sing and you should just shut up. And I don't like that idea because if you look underneath that idea, it is based on the premise that whatever I am today is all I can ever be. And I challenge that premise. If I had believed that 16 years ago I never would have become the singer/songwriter / voice teacher / producer / mentor I am today.
We can all (assuming we have legs that work) run for the bus. That doesn't mean we can win an Olympic marathon. In order to win an Olympic marathon, we would have to train. And we would have to train by starting where we are now, and looking at how we run now, and how that running could be improved. Trying to run like someone else wouldn't work, because our body is different, our equipment is different. We can only train/work out at the level our body is now or we will do ourselves an injury and put ourselves out of the running. And we would have a coach that had run themselves and knows about the physics and the psychology and the physiology of running who would help us see what we are doing right and what we are doing that restricts our capacity to do more.
In terms of teaching "styles", the way I think of it is, you can paint your own mural without any help from me. But maybe you only have a can of black paint and a white wall, and one brush. After some training.... you have more tools... you have more colours, you have some other brushes. I don't tell you want to paint. I just give you the tools you need to paint it. I don't tell you to paint like Picasso. I just give you the tools so you can express yourself naturally. And maybe, in the middle of painting your mural, you might turn to me and ask, 'how do I make orange?' So I tell you. And now you know how to make orange for yourself. My job as a teacher is to make you not need me anymore because you have the tools to do what you want to do.
-H
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#549870 - 10/17/07 11:20 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,608
Linda Sings
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Scorpio
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This is a really interesting discussion to walk into. Vikki, thanks for reminding me why I like you and your vocal philosophy so much. Jim, a question. (Vikki too.) Assuming a singer can sing on pitch and has a reasonable sense of timing, can singing rock, soul, jazz, etc BE taught? Or does it all have to come from an instinct, a natural feel? An interesting album for this discussion would be "Barcelona," featuring Freddie Mercury with opera singer Montserre Caballat. Freddie can land the Broadway-esque and other styles just right, but "Montsy" always sounds like what she is, an opera singer. (I kind of like it, but I know I'm off the beaten path there.) It made me wonder though, that if once you've LEARNED opera there's no going back to other styles. I am happy it introduced me to her voice, though, which is just an amazing instrument. She floats over difficult and gorgeous lines, and almost converts me into liking opera. Just curious here. I respect you both. Linda
Last edited by Linda Adams; 10/17/07 11:22 PM.
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#549894 - 10/18/07 01:04 AM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: Linda Sings]
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Joined: May 2005
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Hummingbird
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Victoria, B.C. Canada
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Assuming a singer can sing on pitch and has a reasonable sense of timing, can singing rock, soul, jazz, etc BE taught? Or does it all have to come from an instinct, a natural feel?
I think there has to be some natural affinity for the musical style. The reason it's tough for a well-trained & experienced opera singer to sound authentic singing any other kind of music is that the voice isn't a fit. It's like asking a body builder to dance ballet. The form is different.
However, if someone sings pop well, and they take say, a jazz immersion course, they can likely take their ability into that style if their mind is open and they are willing to change.
IMO we need to also think outside the box. If I, as a classically trained singer, go and take an intensive workshop in jazz theory and improvisation, and regularly improvise in class / in practice using my instrument; and listen to jazz styles and jazz singers & start with emulating them & then grow into my own interpretation -- just like ANY musician would do -- then with time and practice I would start to be an interpreter of Jazz. Part of it would be my passion for the music & my determination to become part of it.
And if at the end of that road, I wasn't the best jazz improvisor around... I would have still gained immeasurably from the experience of working with great teachers and other musicians, and exploring a genre I love.
H
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#550679 - 10/20/07 12:32 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: Derek Hines]
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Joined: May 2005
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Hummingbird
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Derek, I can appreciate your reply, but I don't think it is necessary to put someone else down in expressing your own opinion. I disagree with Jim's view as well, but neither he nor I made any remarks about each other's talent or level of success in our discussion with each other. My position is based on a dozen years of teaching those who can't sing, how to sing... this is my niche, I have made it my life's work & I have much more experience in working with human voices than Jim has. However, I can respect what he has accomplished in his life and I know some of my students would wish to achieve so much.
regards, Hummin'bird
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#550739 - 10/20/07 06:44 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Hummingbird
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I am still of the opinion that no one can know what someone is capable of unless and until that aspiring person does the work to discover their own capacity. Many people have been told by experts that they did not have what it takes to have a professional career. For example, Sir Michael Caine was told as a young man he would never never have success as a film actor... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Caine For example, Richard Margison was turned down by the university of victoria voice department... he was a folk singer and they said he didn't have an operatic voice and could never never have an operatic career http://www.richardmargison.com/There was a 40-year-old guy in Vancouver who'd never taken any ballet lessons in his life, but decided he wanted to dance ballet. So he studied ballet for 10 years... no, he didn't have a professional career as a dancer... but he became a well respected choreographer. There are thousands of stories of best-selling authors whose manuscripts were turned down by experts & then became best sellers, etc etc. I myself would never never presume to tell anyone what they are and are not capable off (in fact, one mother called me and wanted to bring her daughter over and have me assess whether or not she could go anywhere. I said I couldn't do that). I think it's ethically wrong to make any kind of promise to anyone. However I also think it is ethically wrong to make judgements on someone's future capacity, because even the experts can be wrong. What you think of as an absence of talent I think of as an absence of skill which comes through development & training. What I mean by that is, if someone has a true passion for music... then they will find a way to participate in the music... because that passion IS their talent, even if the "talent" isn't visible to the observer. It's the passion that makes me sing / compose / produce / study/practice / yearn for more. The passion makes you reach deep and develop your talent & keeps you motivated. And I define passion as a true, deep in your soul, I have to do this, it's like breathing, I can't live without it passion. If you have that, and you are willing to grow and learn, then I believe you can accomplish the impossible. So, if I was faced with that young woman... and she was willing to listen to me... I wouldn't tell her that singing was an impossibility - because it's not. I would tell her that it takes a whole lot of work to become a competent singer... and that it takes a whole lot of more work to be a professional singer, assuming the voice that is discovered during the exploration process is able to handle the demands of a professional career. I might discuss with her why she wants to sing like Mariah Carey. What's underneath that? And then I'd ask her... do you really have the passion to take voice lessons, and learn to play at least one instrument, and learn songwriting, and take dance lessons, and play out solo, duo, in band, tour, create a buzz, in short, do you have the passion to commit to the life of a performing artist and learn your craft and pay your dues? And keep your head straight while you're doing it? If she said, firmly and with conviction, 'yes I do', and she was able to keep her commitment to herself... perhaps she would find a way to be in the music. Maybe she wouldn't be the best singer in the world, but perhaps she would be known for her cool songs... etc etc Through her exploration of her own artistry she would develop her identity & persona and market herself as who she is... not as an imitation of someone else.
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#550851 - 10/21/07 01:25 AM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,401
Hummingbird
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Joined: May 2005
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Victoria, B.C. Canada
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If I were a vocal coach and someone with very poor ability came to me I would teach them yes if they insisted but point out that they were wasting both their time and money. I would feel bad dishonest and a fake if I did not. A vocal coach I think should have the qualifications, obligations and right to do this.
Let me make this perfectly clear: it is my JOB to take someone with "very poor ability" and show them the path to having "very good ability". That is exactly what I do. The students in my studio come *not* being able to sing and leave *being able to sing*. If they did *not* leave being able to sing then I would not be doing my job, and I would be ethically & morally wrong for taking money from people who I did not have the ability to teach. I have the integrity to say to my students, if you cannot sing, it is *my* problem, not yours, and if you are willing put your trust in me and if you are committed to the process, together we will find a path to your voice. I would not have much pride in myself or my work if I permitted my students to leave here thinking they could sing when they could not.
H
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#550953 - 10/21/07 02:20 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: Derek Hines]
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Hummingbird
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Even you must admit that there are some people who just have not the ability to sing in tune.
No I don't. Because every single tonedeaf person who has come to me & done the work, has left here being able to sing in tune. However, what I do say when someone who is labelled tone deaf comes to me is... 'you can be helped. However, because of this issue, it will take you longer to find your voice than most other people.'
I can't comment on the show, but I would say that unless the process was holistic, encouraging, gentle, included psychological observation and took place over a period of 6 months to a year... chances are it would not be successful.
I'm not saying that every vocal coach could do what I do, or have the patience to do what I do. People come and study with me *because* I teach people who can't sing how to sing. However, I absolutely refute the statement that someone who is tonedeaf is beyond help. I refute it because I have worked with dozens of extremely bad singers who left here being able to sing, and having the confidence to join a choir, or sing their own songs, or being able to join in on happy birthday or christmas carols without shame. It can be done, with the right approach, with the right attitude, and allowing that the process of discovering and releasing a trapped voice takes a considerable length of time because it is as much about the psychology of self-image+singing as it is about the mechanics of singing.
There is such a thing as art therapy, and music therapy. I consider myself a 'voice therapist'. In other words, through the process of finding out what constricts your voice so that you sound off-key... you grow your awareness of how your thinking & your habits limit you in all areas of your life. And as you slowly begin to realize how tension is manifested in your body, and how your thoughts are intentions that impact your voice... and as you are shown how to work with your body, connect to it, and remove the barriers... you find your voice is freeer, and more natural, so that through the work of becoming aware of how you approach singing (life) and how you think about your voice/singing (self) you move forward as a person. You think more positively about yourself, you feel more able to speak your truth, you feel more connected to yourself... and you find your voice starts to come right. It is warmer, and richer, and on pitch. What was unbalanced becomes balanced. The tonedeaf unsinger becomes the joyful singer.
Hummin'bird
PS - putting someone else down because they disagree with you is not the mark of an emotionally mature human being. Disagree with the opinion, sure, but do not make it personal. It should be possible to discuss the merits of vocal training, and to discuss the idea that anyone who wishes help to sing better can be helped, while still respecting the other person.
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#556544 - 11/06/07 08:39 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,561
Mark Kaufman
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Minneapolis
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Um...remember that part--way back before everyone commenced to devouring each other--about the proper way to do a good scream?
That fascinates me too. I understand the vocal coaching aspect, that the harder you push, the more damage you are likely to sustain. And I have also met several people with blown-out voices.
But a properly trained voice sounds lame singing "Twist and Shout" or "Won't Get Fooled Again". It's a risky business. But those who do it don't seem to have had much training, they have a natural aptitude, physically and emotionally, for producing a good roar.
I'm amazed at how good Roger Daltrey and Robert Plant are singing in their 60's. Sure, they've backed down some, but they both have some powerful pipes.
But my answer to that original question would be to find the best alternative to an all-out cord shredding scream. If it doesn't come easily, it probably won't sound the way you would like anyway. But there are a lot of ways to put out the same sense of power and passion without the shriek.
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#556986 - 11/08/07 03:42 AM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,561
Mark Kaufman
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Minneapolis
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Okay, I just listened to your Soundclick songs, Big Jim, and damn you, you've got a big damn voice.
To hear "The Letter" like that, with someone who can nail that nice, crisp piano riff behind your words, really warmed my soul. That was good. I was born in 1961, last of a family of five babyboomers, and my sister at one point began to believe she WAS Joe Cocker. (Before that she was Ringo, and before that she was the blonde guy in man from UNCLE.) That song really informed my musical thinking, and we also had the single by The Boxtops that I used to like even better. I can nail that one...I'm a skinny bastard.
Cheers, Big Jim! Now I see what you're talking about.
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#560168 - 11/18/07 03:19 PM
Re: yell/scream
[Re: Mark Kaufman]
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,654
Emily Sanders
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You make a great point, Lyle; some voices just ROCK, regardless of any training or lack of it!! However, since every voice has a different point at which vocal damage happens in the face of too much use and no underlying voca; technique...I would conclude that different things work for different singers  Happy singing! Emily
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