my question is (even though it is not good on your voice) what is the proper way to yell/scream while singing and do the least amount of damage and how to protect your voice after you scream. if anyone has any advice I do hope to hear from you

In my opinion there is no healthy way to yell/scream if you want to protect your voice from damage. "The louder your voice, the harder the vocal folds slap against each other. There is a limit to their ability to absorb this shock without causing structural damage to the vocal folds." In other words, yelling can cause permanent damage to your voice, and there is no way to repair that damage. I would consider it unethical for myself or any other vocal instructor to advise you that it is okay to scream under any circumstances.
http://www.bluelanternpress.com/Franco-Jan04.pdf

Hummin'bird

With proper technique - breathing, support, relaxed muscles, etc. - you can get pretty loud.

But screaming - there's just not really a healthy way to do that. I'm sorry

Anthony,

Where did you get that cool picture? Did you live THAT?

Everyone is right. Screaming isn't for the best. But, I have to suggest a voice coach for a couple sessions, and you know there will always be something else to work on, to work on your range and power. Maybe you can achieve what you want from that. When you think about it, screaming is a loud high pitch.

Good luck!

Anthony,

Through proper vocal technique you can use your voice to project powerful sounds that, while they aren't "screaming", may produce a similar effect.

I can't say it strongly enough: protect your voice by getting vocal training!!!! Just like athletes, who invest a lot in their coaches and trainers, singers need to maintain good vocal health with proper technique and trinaing.

Happy singing!

Emily

I have been singing classic rock for over forty years but have never yelled or screamed. I can make powerful noises similar to James Brown and Aretha but yelling or screaming in the conventional sense is a no no.

Hi, Big Jim,

You're one of the very rare singers that is blessed with a voice that can take a lot of use without too much damage

Most singers' voices will suffer with the combination of lots of vocal use in the face of little or no technique....However..as you have stated...there are certainly exceptions!!

Many of us ( myself included) who ahve voices that seem to need a lot of work to maintain a healthy tone are probably mroe drawn to the idea of vocal training.

Emily

I haven't sung Rock & Roll but I sang a lot of Broadway, which means belting, without any training, and I believe that is why I now have to guard my throat so much. If I oversing just a little, I start to feel stress and strain. It's vital to me that I be able to sing well into my 80s and 90s, so protecting what I have is crucial IMO. That's why I continue to coach... and I've been taking voice lessons for 17 years.

Thanks girls. Feel like an argument? Well here is something to get your teeth into. First of all I am nothing special except that I, like a lot of folk, have a natural talent for singing. I have mixed feelings about voice coaching. Most people I have heard who use vocal coaching sound unnatural, lack light and shade plus power especially if singing my kind of music, Rock, Soul and Blues. It may be different for Operatic styles and Stage Musicals or Classical pieces. But in my opinion these people cannot sing Rock or Blues anyway. Formal training can spoil a good natural voice. On the plus side if you have a weak voice or lack any natural style or technique then proper training is essential. Most folk who do any serious singing will instinctively know if they are doing something wrong and many will know naturally how to prevent or correct this without any outside imput. I must admit that some excercises work and some tips about breathing and control come in useful but all in all coaching is not really necessary for most folk especially those who cannot hold a tune to start with. A young Karaoke singer told me that she was going to vocal classes and asked for my advice. In my usual down to earth manner I told her to forget it and not to waste money as she could barely hold a tune and had no sense of rythmn. Too many folk with no talent think that they will turn into Mariah Carey if they go to a vocal coach. That is how coaches make money. You sometimes have to be cruel to be kind.
If you use common sense, have a little talent and do not strain it is questionable if a vocal coach is worth the money.

Since I make my living teaching people who have been told they can't sing, how to sing, and then go and watch them sing at open mics and in musicals and in choirs, you know I'm going to disagree with you. I would never promise anyone they would sing like Mariah or anyone else. The only person you can sing like is you, and it's unhealthy for the voice to try to make your voice sound like or sing like anyone else.

What I do say is, there is a voice, and with the right approach, that natural authetic sound can be accessed, if we can learn to let go of strain, tension, trying, & bad habits. And you will never convince me that someone who longs to sing... but can't sing on key... can't learn to sing, because I have.. oh at least a few hundred students who can prove you wrong. I have been teaching for 11 years and any "tone deaf" person who has been willing to do the work has always recovered from that affliction and has progressed to the point where they could sing entire songs on key.

This is what I say. Could you talk when you born? Could you write when you born? Could you walk when you born? Could you play the guitar when you born? No. You learned how to do those things, and many other things. So there is no earthly reason why people who have difficulty singing cannot learn to sing correctly, given the right kind of holistic instruction and encouragement. And I would very very insulted if any of my students said that I simply teach to make money off of them.

I teach because I love relating to adults who on a creative journey of self-growth. I teach because I love watching and hearing my students make tiny steps towards the goal of singing freely without fear. I teach because it brings meaning to my life and hopefully healing to my students, who have struggled, as I have, with shyness and self-esteem and lack of belief in themselves.

I invite prospective students to meet with me for an (free) hour and chat about who I am and what I do and what my philosphy is... and then I offer them a discounted first lesson. So if they sign on, they know exactly what they are going to receive from me in exchange for tuition. They get all of me, everything I know about singing, about creativity, and about life. I tell my students I consider myself part singing teacher, part therapist and part creative guru.

Teaching is my passion, that's why I do it. If I had lots of money and I didn't need to support myself, I would teach for free because it brings so much to my life. I would not be the person I am today if so many people had not honoured me by sharing themselves and their voices and their process with me.

That being said, unfortunately not all singing teachers and vocal coaches are cut from the same cloth. Some make dubious claims and some don't know what they are doing. I could write more about to look for in a vocal teacher but I believe there already is a thread about that. If anyone is interested, just PM me.

Hummin'bird

Thanks Vikki. Much what I was expecting. My point is simple, you yourself admit to not singing any Rock or Blues etc. Most vocal teachers fall into this category. They know only the classic styles and techniques and use only them. You do an excellent job doing what you do and I am sure you are a genuine honest person. I do not dispute that you have taught tone deaf people to sing better. You yourself must admit that you can only go so far with folk before you reach their limits and the rest is down to them and natural talent and application. These facts are not in question. However with no experience of the genre of pop/rock how can you teach someone a style that is so opposite and alien to yours?
Just because someone does not follow or adopt your own musical standards, ethics and philosophy does not make them wrong or a bad person. I would not dream of trying to sing in your style as it is so alien to mine. However I can still appreciate the techniques which are so opposed and different to mine.
Listening to any classical trained singer trying to sing rock is an experience I would prefer to miss. It is almost as bad as a rock star trying to sing opera. The two styles just cannot mix as they are so different.
There is more than enough room in this world for all the styles of music we have. There are some thing you cannot really teach and Rock is one it is just a natural thing, not contrived.

However with no experience of the genre of pop/rock how can you teach someone a style that is so opposite and alien to yours?

- I don't purport to teach students those styles & I say so right from the start. I'm not a pop/rock coach, I'm a singing teacher. I don't set out to change their style of singing except teaching them what works for the voice and what doesn't. I can give someone a good start in accessing their voice, learning how it works, giving them the tools to maintain it, giving them the tools to know what to do when they get into a problem. Then they can move on to someone coaching in those styles if they wish. While they're with me, they bring the music they wish to sing and we work on getting technique into the music without losing their natural qualities. I work with songwriters who want to perform/record their own stuff, too.

-That being said, I don't teach styles of singing. I teach people who CAN'T sing HOW TO SING and give them the basic tools and confidence to go and sing whatever they want to sing.

- my philosophy is that once you discover and release your natural sound you can use your developed voice to sing any kind of music you wish. And you won't sound like an opera singer because you will understand how to apply the tools of healthy singing to rock or pop or jazz or bluegrass. And you won't sound like an opera singer because it takes years and years and years of training to sound like an opera singer. I don't teach opera singing. I will get someone started in terms of releasing their voice, but I tell them after 6 months they will need to go to the conservatory.

-I think any method that deals with mechanics only and doesn't address the fact that the voice is part of our human identity, or the fact that our self-image is reflected in the sounds we create, is leaving out a very important aspect of singing. In other words, I believe that 'technique' and 'method' must also embrace, support, encourage, and reveal the artistry & spirit of the student. I believe it is unethical for a teacher to impose their method on a student. I believe it is a teachers job to LISTEN to the student with ALL of their senses and follow the lead of the voice & psyche present in the room. The teacher MUST adjust their approach to each individual student, and each individual voice. I tell my students, I work organically with the person in front of me in the present moment, in the now, helping them to build awareness of their tension / restrictions / holding backness, starting from exactly where they are. I tell them there are no promises... but that you cannot know what you are capable of unless you walk the path of discovery. I never thought I'd be a performing songwriter, never mind a singing teacher, and I never thought I'd be singing in an opera chorus, or with a bluegrass trio, and I never thought I'd be producing my own music & getting publishing deals for it. But if I hadn't had the tenacity to stick to my guns in the face of people telling me (like you did that young girl) that I didn't have what it takes... I wouldn't be where I am today. I'd still be working in an insurance company, wondering where all the music went.

-People work with me because they wish to grow beyond where they are, remove limitations, blossom into more than what they have been, progress beyond their current programming... and the method that we use to water that growth is called 'singing' but it is much more profound than that. I know, because I was healed through the creative process as I walked the path of discovering my own voice, which was hidden away under years of being put-down, stepped on, and abused. Through the healing journey of releasing my own voice and helping others release theirs, I came to feel that I have value as a human being. And if I can help my students believe in themselves the way my teachers helped me, then that will make my efforts worthwhile.

Just because someone does not follow or adopt your own musical standards, ethics and philosophy does not make them wrong or a bad person.
-Your post said that vocal coaches prey on the naivity of 'untalented' singers who have no hope of getting anywhere with it just to make money. In other words, you said vocal coaches rip off naive untalented students. And that generalization applies to me and all the wonderful people I have worked with over the past 17 years, who helped me go from a not-that-great shy singer to a confident singer people respect. So you can bet I'm going to step up and tell you that you are wrong.

Thanks again Vikki I respect what you say even though you may be in the minority. I repeat, most, correction, a hellavalot of vocal coaches do more harm than good. They DO teach no hopers who believe that they CAN sing and the vast majority of these no hopers are just as bad coming out as when they go in just a bit poorer. They impose their own style which in most cases does not match the pupils style. Some have qualifications/credentials/experience debateable as to value or authenticity. Most of all they charge money for imparting what amounts to little else but plain common sense advice. But hey if folk think they need it and want to spend their money on it good luck to them. I am sure it works for some.
Re the young girl, I would bet $1m to a pinch of dust that you could do little or nothing to make her a passable singer never mind fulfil her aspirations as a pro singer. She thought that with a few lessons she could be a millionaire pop star by going on the X factor (British equiv of American Idol). Someone had to bring her down to earth before she got upset by everybody laughing at her. She was completely tone deaf and had no sense of rythmn. Yes you can bring out the best in someone but even you cannot work miracles. You have to have some natural talent to work with. What would you do honestly if such a person came to you?
By the way neither of us are wrong we just have different opinions and experiences that we share.
All the best and much respect. JIM

Well, here you've gone and reached your 2000s, well past your 80s and 90s.

She thought that with a few lessons she could be a millionaire pop star. What would you do honestly if such a person came to you?

I would tell her the truth. That it will take (a minimum of) one to (more likely) three and possibly more years of daily practice and weekly lessons to grow her instrument into something that would be considered professional, and that there is no earthly way she (or anyone else) will ever sound like Mariah because Mariah is Mariah. And that we don't need another Mariah. We need individual artists who are artists because they have something to say that is real, individual artists who write their own stuff and sing from the heart with their own authentic voice. A singer's job is to find themselves in their voice and reveal it. It can be done, but it takes a whole heck of a lot of work and commitment to make any dream happen. It took me 8 years to find the voice I have now.

I would also tell her some home truths of what it means to be an artist, and how you start by learning your craft & honing your skills and playing open mics and learning to write songs and grow into touring with your band and making next to nothing while you pay your dues over many years, and that there is no guarantee of success. You must do it because you love music & you are passionate about performing music.

I would say.... suppose today you decided you wanted to play the guitar as well as Santini or write songs like Jason Blume. It's possible, if you do the work. How hard do you think they worked at it? How focussed were they on their goal? How long do you think it took them to "become"? That's right, years.

She would likely not want to hear that, and so she would go elsewhere. And that's because she isn't really interested in singing at all. She just wants to be famous.

I was talking to a student today about this restrictive idea that I often see in the media and is reflected in your post. It's the idea that if you can't already sing, you don't have the talent to sing and you should just shut up. And I don't like that idea because if you look underneath that idea, it is based on the premise that whatever I am today is all I can ever be. And I challenge that premise. If I had believed that 16 years ago I never would have become the singer/songwriter / voice teacher / producer / mentor I am today.

We can all (assuming we have legs that work) run for the bus. That doesn't mean we can win an Olympic marathon. In order to win an Olympic marathon, we would have to train. And we would have to train by starting where we are now, and looking at how we run now, and how that running could be improved. Trying to run like someone else wouldn't work, because our body is different, our equipment is different. We can only train/work out at the level our body is now or we will do ourselves an injury and put ourselves out of the running. And we would have a coach that had run themselves and knows about the physics and the psychology and the physiology of running who would help us see what we are doing right and what we are doing that restricts our capacity to do more.

In terms of teaching "styles", the way I think of it is, you can paint your own mural without any help from me. But maybe you only have a can of black paint and a white wall, and one brush. After some training.... you have more tools... you have more colours, you have some other brushes. I don't tell you want to paint. I just give you the tools you need to paint it. I don't tell you to paint like Picasso. I just give you the tools so you can express yourself naturally. And maybe, in the middle of painting your mural, you might turn to me and ask, 'how do I make orange?' So I tell you. And now you know how to make orange for yourself. My job as a teacher is to make you not need me anymore because you have the tools to do what you want to do.

-H

I agree with most of what you say. My take is slightly different though. Be all you can be is a good philosophy. HOWEVER in todays world this philosophy has been twisted to read more like mediocracy rules as anybody regardless of talent can be a pro singer and standards have dropped because of it. Too many people with too little talent have wanted the "easy life" of being a singer. In reality it is far from easy as only a very few have the voice, experience, determination, stamina, personality, and backbone to achieve such a life. Some vocal coaches plus shows like AI just pepetuate and encourage this mediocracy. In this new politically correct world people cannot be told to give up because they suck. INSTEAD THEY ARE PUT ON TV TO BE LAUGHED AT BY SOME OR IDOLIZED BY OTHERS (GULLABLE PEOPLE WITH BRAINS THE SIZE OF A WALNUT.)

Oh, I agree with that. But now we're talking about more than teaching someone how to sing so they can go join a choir or sing at open mics with some confidence. We're talking about how reality shows skew reality, and prey on the fast-food-instant-coffee mentality of today's society, which denies the process required to become and be an artist and worships instant stardom and phony artistry. Don't get me started on the bands formed because they look good together.
-H

Vikki sometimes if you did not laugh you would just cry. Take away anything but leave me my sense of humour.

This is a really interesting discussion to walk into.

Vikki, thanks for reminding me why I like you and your vocal philosophy so much.

Jim, a question. (Vikki too.) Assuming a singer can sing on pitch and has a reasonable sense of timing, can singing rock, soul, jazz, etc BE taught? Or does it all have to come from an instinct, a natural feel?

An interesting album for this discussion would be "Barcelona," featuring Freddie Mercury with opera singer Montserre Caballat. Freddie can land the Broadway-esque and other styles just right, but "Montsy" always sounds like what she is, an opera singer. (I kind of like it, but I know I'm off the beaten path there.) It made me wonder though, that if once you've LEARNED opera there's no going back to other styles. I am happy it introduced me to her voice, though, which is just an amazing instrument. She floats over difficult and gorgeous lines, and almost converts me into liking opera.

Just curious here. I respect you both.

Linda

Assuming a singer can sing on pitch and has a reasonable sense of timing, can singing rock, soul, jazz, etc BE taught? Or does it all have to come from an instinct, a natural feel?

I think there has to be some natural affinity for the musical style. The reason it's tough for a well-trained & experienced opera singer to sound authentic singing any other kind of music is that the voice isn't a fit. It's like asking a body builder to dance ballet. The form is different.

However, if someone sings pop well, and they take say, a jazz immersion course, they can likely take their ability into that style if their mind is open and they are willing to change.

IMO we need to also think outside the box. If I, as a classically trained singer, go and take an intensive workshop in jazz theory and improvisation, and regularly improvise in class / in practice using my instrument; and listen to jazz styles and jazz singers & start with emulating them & then grow into my own interpretation -- just like ANY musician would do -- then with time and practice I would start to be an interpreter of Jazz. Part of it would be my passion for the music & my determination to become part of it.

And if at the end of that road, I wasn't the best jazz improvisor around... I would have still gained immeasurably from the experience of working with great teachers and other musicians, and exploring a genre I love.

H

Hi Linda. You are correct about opera singers singing pop/rock. No matter what they sing they will always sound like opera singers. I would imagine the same in reverse. A rock singer eg Freddie Mercury could never truely sound like an opera singer and the example you gave bears this out. Freddie is good at Barcelona but it is not opera. Vikki nearly hit the nail on the head talking abot body builders trying ballet. Perhaps a better example would be a pro tennis player taking up golf. Whilst his hand to eye coordination is very good the disciplines and techniques are so different he would struggle without the proper practice and dedication. He might never make a pro golfer and even to participate at a reasonable club level could take many years.
Can pop/rock be taught? I suppose so as just about anything can be taught. I am of the feeling that to excel in any field you have to have a certain natural ability first plus the necessary dedication spending many years perfecting your gift. You learn by your mistakes. Tuition can improve/hone this talent but it cannot magically produce talent that is not already there.
Remember school. There was always a couple of kids who excelled at say sports or art or academics and a couple of kids who were complete duffers no matter how hard they tried. All the kids had the same tuition. The difference, natural ability.
When you see people clapping along to a song at a pop concert there are always a few who are completely lacking in any rythmn yet the rest can do this simple thing easily without even thinking.

Hey Jim

Ok now that I have settled my nerves a little I can reply without anger. Jim I think the point you are missing is this. Some have natural abilities you say? You mention the duffers as if they just won't ever get it. Here is where your thinking is flawed

some are born with not natural ability but learning ability. Some are born with a deficit in learning abilty. That doesn't mean those born with a deficit can't make up for it. Look at Einstien or Abraham Lincoln for examples. People didn't think much of their natural abilites becsuse they didn't learn in the same way others did. They were still considered to be genuises. By your logic dunces like Einstien and talentless singers like Bon Scott of ACDC or John Denver would still be there talentless dunces. However they aren't they made their mark on history. Where is your mark Jim? With your natural ability surely you've had a concert in central park? Seeing how naturally talented you are surely your walls are lined with music awards? No? My point is just because you're saying it doesn't make it so. And I don't think vicki's point was that the body builder could never be a dancer no I think she was saying he could never be a ballerina. Does that mean he couldn't prance a little? Hardly! In fact if he were to work hard at it for years (as vicki was suggesting) He might even be able to dance swan lake eventually. Will it be harder for him than someone who has practiced Ballet for years? Certainly because he doesn't have the form body shape whatever. This however doesn't not make it impossible. I won't bother trying to give examples because you would just refute them.

What I honestly think Jim is that you started in on this because you want to argue your point. you don't wish to civily work through this you just want everyone to agree with you, tough biscuits mate aint gonna happen. You can be as opinionated as you want about this subject it will never change the facts. You are what you are if you're good at singing classic rock(which is debatable depending on my ears) Then that's what your good at if so be proud of it. In the same note for everyone you discourage from trying to do the same I would like you to think about How you'd feel if you suddenly lost the ability. For an example of this just look at Pink Floyd's Roger Waters. He used to bave your natural talent. Last tour they did Gilmour had to take over singing Roger sounded so bad. So if you want to keep this debate up then be my guest but truth be told mate there is such a thing as what comes around goes around an I wouldn't want to be in your shoes when it does!
Derek

Derek, I can appreciate your reply, but I don't think it is necessary to put someone else down in expressing your own opinion. I disagree with Jim's view as well, but neither he nor I made any remarks about each other's talent or level of success in our discussion with each other. My position is based on a dozen years of teaching those who can't sing, how to sing... this is my niche, I have made it my life's work & I have much more experience in working with human voices than Jim has. However, I can respect what he has accomplished in his life and I know some of my students would wish to achieve so much.

regards,
Hummin'bird

Hi Vicki

nothing I said in the part you mentioned was meant as a put down. simply put where is his sucess? I know he has a measured amount. My point is we all have a measured amount of sucess he is not different in that regard than you or I. So my point is even with his natural abiity he hasn't gone as far as others have not because he doesn't have the talent I never said he didn't I alluded to the fact that he hasn't reached an upper echelon of sucess. That said I do think when you belittle someone else it does come back on you and I stand behind that!
Sincere Blessings
Derek

"You are what you are if you're good at singing classic rock(which is debatable depending on my ears)" & "Where is your mark Jim? With your natural ability surely you've had a concert in central park? Seeing how naturally talented you are surely your walls are lined with music awards?"

Both those statements are personal.

I felt Jim was wrong to tell that young woman that there was no hope of her being a singer, OTOH I clearly stated that it was likely she would not be willing to put in the years of work necessary to discover, release & work with her own voice, because she isn't really interested in singing like Mariah Carey... she just wants to be Mariah (famous).

H

Hey Derek you do not know me and what I have or have not achieved is of no relevance to this thread. I will not lower myself down to your level by listing any of my achievements. You show ignorance and a total lack of understanding of the points I was making. Personal banal insults just illustrate this ignorance. First of all your point about my trophy lined walls shows a lack of understanding of our business. Even you should know that talent has little to do with achievements in the music industry. It is not what you do but who you do.
Music can be learned to a pro standard without having any natural aptitude is complete and utter nonesense. The point I was making I will repeat again for the hard of thinking. To sing anything to a high level you first need natural ability. Yes you can always improve and learn things from tuition and coaching but the spark to go a step further cannot be taught. If you have little or no natural ability then you cannot expect to achieve excellence. That principle applies to just about anything. The best teacher in the world cannot turn a moron into a genius and a genius does not really need a teacher to express his genius. The Einstein, Roger Waters and Bon Scott anecdotes are totally irrelevant and neither add any credence to your comments or disprove mine. If you have to try to counter my statements you will have to come up with something a lot better.
Re the young girl. I was correct for the following reason. She did not want vocal coaching as a hobby or to improve for open mic nights or karaoke. She wanted to become a pro singer. Hell would freeze over before that happened. I just pointed out that she was tone deaf or had no sense of rythmn could not sing and probably never could reach her goal. It is nice to have ambition and a goal and I would help and encourage most but sometimes you have to be honest and tell folk the truth rather than be nice or lie just to be nice.
The kid at school who could not kick a ball could get the best sport coaches in the world but he would still be a duffer compared to the kids with ability.
Talent cannot be taught only nurtured.

I am still of the opinion that no one can know what someone is capable of unless and until that aspiring person does the work to discover their own capacity. Many people have been told by experts that they did not have what it takes to have a professional career.

For example, Sir Michael Caine was told as a young man he would never never have success as a film actor... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Caine

For example, Richard Margison was turned down by the university of victoria voice department... he was a folk singer and they said he didn't have an operatic voice and could never never have an operatic career http://www.richardmargison.com/

There was a 40-year-old guy in Vancouver who'd never taken any ballet lessons in his life, but decided he wanted to dance ballet. So he studied ballet for 10 years... no, he didn't have a professional career as a dancer... but he became a well respected choreographer.

There are thousands of stories of best-selling authors whose manuscripts were turned down by experts & then became best sellers, etc etc.

I myself would never never presume to tell anyone what they are and are not capable off (in fact, one mother called me and wanted to bring her daughter over and have me assess whether or not she could go anywhere. I said I couldn't do that). I think it's ethically wrong to make any kind of promise to anyone. However I also think it is ethically wrong to make judgements on someone's future capacity, because even the experts can be wrong.

What you think of as an absence of talent I think of as an absence of skill which comes through development & training. What I mean by that is, if someone has a true passion for music... then they will find a way to participate in the music... because that passion IS their talent, even if the "talent" isn't visible to the observer. It's the passion that makes me sing / compose / produce / study/practice / yearn for more. The passion makes you reach deep and develop your talent & keeps you motivated.

And I define passion as a true, deep in your soul, I have to do this, it's like breathing, I can't live without it passion. If you have that, and you are willing to grow and learn, then I believe you can accomplish the impossible.

So, if I was faced with that young woman... and she was willing to listen to me... I wouldn't tell her that singing was an impossibility - because it's not. I would tell her that it takes a whole lot of work to become a competent singer... and that it takes a whole lot of more work to be a professional singer, assuming the voice that is discovered during the exploration process is able to handle the demands of a professional career. I might discuss with her why she wants to sing like Mariah Carey. What's underneath that? And then I'd ask her... do you really have the passion to take voice lessons, and learn to play at least one instrument, and learn songwriting, and take dance lessons, and play out solo, duo, in band, tour, create a buzz, in short, do you have the passion to commit to the life of a performing artist and learn your craft and pay your dues? And keep your head straight while you're doing it? If she said, firmly and with conviction, 'yes I do', and she was able to keep her commitment to herself... perhaps she would find a way to be in the music. Maybe she wouldn't be the best singer in the world, but perhaps she would be known for her cool songs... etc etc Through her exploration of her own artistry she would develop her identity & persona and market herself as who she is... not as an imitation of someone else.

Hi Vikki. I agree with your theory that everyone should try and be all they can be. That is a no brainer. You cite examples that do not really prove much. Michael Caine has made obscene amounts of money as an actor albeit as a mediocre very wooden actor by his own definition. (he has been in some real turkeys) SO WHAT. This proves my theory that mediocracy has been encouraged and perpetuated. When there is so much talent out there that could do much better than Mr Caine and they do not get a break I have a problem with this. Perhaps if he had given up when advised a place would have been there for someone with real talent.
The 40 year old must have had a natural talent and only discovered this and allowed it to be nurtured at a late stage. It happens all the time. So what.
Re Richard Margison I am sorry but excuse my ignorance I have never heard of him. Not up on opera and classical styles.
I am not saying that people do not fall through the net. I am saying that the net has holes that are too small. It is not cast out often enough. Some fish should be thrown back and bigger better tasting fish caught in their place.
There are many people in many fields that do not deserve the fame and fortune. If they had been told that they only have a very limited talent and gave up the world might be a better place. I can supply a list of names of some of these individuals if you like.
There have been art exhibitions where so called artists have made huge amounts of money from things like a pile of bricks thrown on the floor, an unmade bed, and recently an electric light being switched on and off. These people (con artists) call this art and will make big bucks and win prizes for this nonesense. Some idiots with more money than sense are duped into mentoring such drivel to be fashionable. Yuck. I saw a pavement artist creating a masterpiece in chalk on the pavement and collecting pennies in a hat. An hour later the rain washed it away. Yuck. There are only a few teachers and tutors and a few chances for truely talented people to make it in this business. These chances should go to the few who have this natural talent and shine. Folk should be told HONESTLY how good or bad they are. To do anything else just lowers standards and encourages mediocracy.
I must admit I speak my mind have strong opinions and perhaps am not as tactful as I could be. But I can take criticism and have no fear of the harsh truth. Too often people are afraid to say that someone sucks as it is not PC. I respect someone more for telling it like it is rather than telling white lies just to be nice.
My blood boiled this weekend as X factor rolled onto our TV with the usual wannabes there. Unfortunately in this series the hopefuls are the saddest bunch ever. Few if any can barely hold a tune. My agent would not look twice at any of them and he is not that fussy yet here they are on the TV getting mega bucks and exposure. Another reason to nip this mediocracy in the bud.
I still think that the advice I gave the girl was for the best alround. I saved her a lot of money on wasted lessons and saved a lot of people having to suffer her awful tuneless singing. I look upon it as a good deed.
If I were a vocal coach and someone with very poor ability came to me I would teach them yes if they insisted but point out that they were wasting both their time and money. I would feel bad dishonest and a fake if I did not. A vocal coach I think should have the qualifications, obligations and right to do this.
Should a university let someone in who failed the entrance exam miserably. I certainly would not? Maybe someone would argue that they should just in case there talents were well hidden.

If I were a vocal coach and someone with very poor ability came to me I would teach them yes if they insisted but point out that they were wasting both their time and money. I would feel bad dishonest and a fake if I did not. A vocal coach I think should have the qualifications, obligations and right to do this.

Let me make this perfectly clear: it is my JOB to take someone with "very poor ability" and show them the path to having "very good ability". That is exactly what I do. The students in my studio come *not* being able to sing and leave *being able to sing*. If they did *not* leave being able to sing then I would not be doing my job, and I would be ethically & morally wrong for taking money from people who I did not have the ability to teach. I have the integrity to say to my students, if you cannot sing, it is *my* problem, not yours, and if you are willing put your trust in me and if you are committed to the process, together we will find a path to your voice. I would not have much pride in myself or my work if I permitted my students to leave here thinking they could sing when they could not.

H

Vikki. Your ability to teach is not in question. What is in question is some folks ability to learn. You cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear. Even you must admit that there are some people who just have not the ability to sing in tune.
There was a TV program called so you think you can sing. It featured tone deaf no hopers. They were put to a top vocal coach and a course in singing. The point was to compare before and after performances to see who had made the best progress. The after results were predictable, tone deaf no hopers who still could not hold down a tune and probably never would. A complete waste of time and money.
My advice when choosing a hobby pick something that you are reasonably good at and enjoy doing. Something you can progress at. Otherways is a complete waste of time.
Derek Re "You are what you are if you're good at singing classic rock(which is debatable depending on my ears)"
I took the opportunity of listening to some of your Soundclick offerings. I will not comment further except to say you may want to book a few lessons with Vikki as she says she can work miracles with tone deaf no hopers. You may also want to get your ears checked out.

Hey Jim

I've decided to take my counsel from the bible. Mathew chapter 7 verse 6 nuff said

Derek You mean the bit about judging others! Well try please try in future to practice what you preach. I am an atheist so I treat the bible as only being a good read. Most bits are just a one sided warped history lesson so I pay little attention to quotes from the bible. But here is one for you. I do not know what chapter or verse it is from but it goes something like ye shall reap what you sow in other words what goes around comes around. I do not normally lower myself to personal unprovoked insults as you obviously do. I could not let it go unanswered so I returned it tenfold.

No Jim you got it wrong

The passage basicaly says don't cast your pearls before swine. That said it's obvious that's the tact I should take since you obviously aren't open to critisim (regardless of what you say). Though I don't intend to back down without a fight. Ok so you wanna rip my stuff on my soundclick. Now we got a fight going mate. I know my vocals need work and plan to go to a vocal coach and get working however I am not some no talent rhythmless hack. I listened to yours as well to see what you got. I can sing cover to karoke as good as you any day of the week. Your timing on the dead or alive in the chorus was terrible and your accent pours through so much it makes it hard to understand the lyrics. Also what instrument you play mate? What songs you written? Do you do your own arranging? I can press play on cd as well mate. At least I am really giving it a go my vocals may need work and I may have some timing issues but I've been playing for 12 years self taught. And I also write my own music so I<--- Have to figure out the key for singing (I can't just listen to the record) I have to figure out the rhythm and timing I have to play around with sound levels to make the backing sound right. What do you have to do? Press play. Nuff said here mate of the two of us I got more talent in my left pinky than you got in your entire instrument. Wanna play with the big dogs? Get ready to get chewed up!
Derek

Even you must admit that there are some people who just have not the ability to sing in tune.

No I don't. Because every single tonedeaf person who has come to me & done the work, has left here being able to sing in tune. However, what I do say when someone who is labelled tone deaf comes to me is... 'you can be helped. However, because of this issue, it will take you longer to find your voice than most other people.'

I can't comment on the show, but I would say that unless the process was holistic, encouraging, gentle, included psychological observation and took place over a period of 6 months to a year... chances are it would not be successful.

I'm not saying that every vocal coach could do what I do, or have the patience to do what I do. People come and study with me *because* I teach people who can't sing how to sing. However, I absolutely refute the statement that someone who is tonedeaf is beyond help. I refute it because I have worked with dozens of extremely bad singers who left here being able to sing, and having the confidence to join a choir, or sing their own songs, or being able to join in on happy birthday or christmas carols without shame. It can be done, with the right approach, with the right attitude, and allowing that the process of discovering and releasing a trapped voice takes a considerable length of time because it is as much about the psychology of self-image+singing as it is about the mechanics of singing.

There is such a thing as art therapy, and music therapy. I consider myself a 'voice therapist'. In other words, through the process of finding out what constricts your voice so that you sound off-key... you grow your awareness of how your thinking & your habits limit you in all areas of your life. And as you slowly begin to realize how tension is manifested in your body, and how your thoughts are intentions that impact your voice... and as you are shown how to work with your body, connect to it, and remove the barriers... you find your voice is freeer, and more natural, so that through the work of becoming aware of how you approach singing (life) and how you think about your voice/singing (self) you move forward as a person. You think more positively about yourself, you feel more able to speak your truth, you feel more connected to yourself... and you find your voice starts to come right. It is warmer, and richer, and on pitch. What was unbalanced becomes balanced. The tonedeaf unsinger becomes the joyful singer.

Hummin'bird

PS - putting someone else down because they disagree with you is not the mark of an emotionally mature human being. Disagree with the opinion, sure, but do not make it personal. It should be possible to discuss the merits of vocal training, and to discuss the idea that anyone who wishes help to sing better can be helped, while still respecting the other person.

No Derek you got it completely wrong. If you have followed my postings you will know what I have done and for how long. I know nothing about you except for your very poor Soundclick. You say you have to play around with sound levels well try doing it on your soundclick stuff. Sheesh. In soundclick there is bad, woeful and yours. Your accent is so thick and nasally I would suggest counting your thumbs. There must be a lot of inbreeding in Oregon. Oh and you want to chew me up. You are cannibals as well. You are self taught well you should have got a better teacher. You have CDs and can press play. Wow some achievement for an Oregon boy. Och I will stop this nonesense I am getting bored. I will finally put you out of your misery. I have been in the industry for over forty years most of it as a pro singer mostly in bands but also solo cabaret. I have played with some top bands and also in the early years been road crew for some big international names so I do know a little about sound equipment. Yes I have performed in some big stadiums and have some stuff on my walls. I play keyboards to a moderate level a bit of bass and a bit of blues harp. I have written many songs poems and scripts but cannot publish much on open forums due to legal and copyright issues. The same applies to performances. Sorry you do not like my Soundclick rough demo stuff. But I do not really care much about what you think. Re talent in your pinky NO. Dream On. By the way I recorded a song by that name look it up. You may want to guess which band I was with.
If you ever become a big dog I will put on your leash, muzzle you and take you outside so you do not wet the floor. NUFF SAID Cheers JIM

You talk real big mate ok well there is saying we have over here put up or shut up nuff said. Also I was refering to you pressing play for your demo's I know a karaoke track when I hear one

Oh and I await your next big "demo" once you can afford another 20 quid for the karaoke track

Since this discussion has degenerated into an exchange of insults, I am out of here.

Don't worry Vicki

I'm done as well I just don't like bullies and I feel Jim here is acting one. I have learned to stand up to bullies. I've said my piece now I'm done.
Sincere Blessings to you
And sorry this degenerated into personal insults wasn't my intention.

I do not need to prove anything especially to you. I also do not have to explain the reasons for posting a "KARAOKE" recording of Wanted Dead or Alive or The Letter. Just remember you started the insults not me. I just retaliated for a bit of fun. At least mine were creative and humerous, wasted on an easy target.
Like Vikki I also am out of here.

Um...remember that part--way back before everyone commenced to devouring each other--about the proper way to do a good scream?

That fascinates me too. I understand the vocal coaching aspect, that the harder you push, the more damage you are likely to sustain. And I have also met several people with blown-out voices.

But a properly trained voice sounds lame singing "Twist and Shout" or "Won't Get Fooled Again". It's a risky business. But those who do it don't seem to have had much training, they have a natural aptitude, physically and emotionally, for producing a good roar.

I'm amazed at how good Roger Daltrey and Robert Plant are singing in their 60's. Sure, they've backed down some, but they both have some powerful pipes.

But my answer to that original question would be to find the best alternative to an all-out cord shredding scream. If it doesn't come easily, it probably won't sound the way you would like anyway. But there are a lot of ways to put out the same sense of power and passion without the shriek.

Hi Lyle Glad you got my point. A properly trained voice trying to sing rock sounds naff unless he throws the training out of the window. The attributes and aptitudes of rock/blues singing tend to come naturally and can not really be taught. They also go against a lot of classical teachings and techniques.
Anyways back to this yell. I try and keep these down to a controlled level a la Plant/Daltrey. To do otherwise will kill your voicebox. It is all down to practice, technique and knowing what you are comfortably capable of. If it strains hurts or burns do not do it. Listen to Daltrey in Wont get fooled, His yell after the keyboard solo although loud is controlled. He practices and perfects techniques to do that believe me. We cover that song and it took ages for me to perform that bit. I gradually worked my way up to it.

Okay, I just listened to your Soundclick songs, Big Jim, and damn you, you've got a big damn voice.

To hear "The Letter" like that, with someone who can nail that nice, crisp piano riff behind your words, really warmed my soul. That was good. I was born in 1961, last of a family of five babyboomers, and my sister at one point began to believe she WAS Joe Cocker. (Before that she was Ringo, and before that she was the blonde guy in man from UNCLE.) That song really informed my musical thinking, and we also had the single by The Boxtops that I used to like even better. I can nail that one...I'm a skinny bastard.

Cheers, Big Jim! Now I see what you're talking about.

Lyle Thanks for that. Now where do I send the cheque? I do a MEATLOAF/COCKER tribute as part of my cabaret. Glad you liked the excerpt.

I have read around in these posts, and I am not going to state what makes a great singer.
There are operatic trained singers I hate and love as well as minimal singers that I hate and love.
Some of each famous and others not.
Whatever great so-called talent gets lost in the shuffle, life is'nt fair.
All I can say for myself is that I do much better if I really feel what I am singing instead of worryimg about how great to sound.
It sounds more silly thinking I have to sing a certain way then if I just wing it and be myself.

I agree, Matt.

There are trained voices that are just gorgeous, and some that are just annoying...same with the natural duffers.

Certain guitar virtuosos are just amazing, but I get bored listening to astonishing technique and eventually want to hear someone just put their soul into something ala Neil Young or Keith Richards. Same applies to vocalists...I can be astounded by Celine Dion's remarkable range and expressiveness...but I'd really rather hear Janis shred herself to bloody bits one more time...

Yes, life isn't fair.

You make a great point, Lyle; some voices just ROCK, regardless of any training or lack of it!!

However, since every voice has a different point at which vocal damage happens in the face of too much use and no underlying voca; technique...I would conclude that different things work for different singers

Happy singing!

Emily

Hi Emily. I agree. Whilst training helps it is nothing without natural talent and aptitude. Less talented folk may seek voice coaching whilst the natural just ROCKS. These people know instinctively how to protect their voice and how to achieve things without straining or vocal damage.

...Or Not. But they sound great anyway. (I'm thinking about Janis...pretty sure she wouldn't be able to speak anymore had she survived this long. But I sure loved that voice.)

Lyle from what I hear Janis was always too stoned to make much sense anyway.