JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Alright, children.....Check this out......

See if your Mommy will help you to understand this.....

I have a song registered with ASCAP now.
I was given a song title and reference # via PM yesterday, and I have just come from the Nashville ASCAP office on Music Row.

After hearing that there is a $25.00 registration fee to join ASCAP, I would like to know what's the difference between joining BMI or SESAC as opposed to ASCAP?

Perhaps it's just a minor oversight that I had to go to the office building to find this out, but the fact remains, I don't have $25.00, so maybe I could join another PRO, that doesn't charge to sign up as a writer?

I dunno Snake
I joined ASCAP online and it did not cost anything.
See if you can join Online It may be they charge $25 for the paperwork. E-filing= no paper.

I joined SOCAN (BMI)no charge,but that was many moons ago.

joined in May-after my performance at JPF on the road!
No charge on-line.

If you have no songs ready for someone to record, music, lyrics, etc. there is no reason to join a Pro. If you have a song with a Publisher you will need to join a Pro he is affiliated with. There isn't much difference of which Pro you join as unless you garner a big hit you will see no Pro royalities to speak of.

Get your songs ready to pitch first. Then you can join a Pro. Most Publishers have affilations with more than one PRO. The songwriter can only join one Pro at a time. To change they have to be released from the current PRO.

Publishers register songs with the pro when they place a song for release.

It should cost nothing to Join a PRO.

It's a lot for my mummy to understand but with patience and time even she can get it. Write a Hit!

I evidently wrote a lyric that someone thought was worth pursuing, don't know if it's a hit, but it's out there now....

I am, as I saw it put so delicately in a PM this morning, part of the establishment, so I think that actually joining a PRO might be my next step, so I really need to know which one might suit me best for what I'm trying to do...

What differences really do exist, if any, that make joining one PRO above another?

Snake,
I think both BMI and ASCAP are good...I don't know much about Sesac. I didn't pay anything to join ASCAP..(haven't gotten anything from them either..LOL) so we are even.... but if I had to do it again I would join BMI...I have heard from more then one pro that BMI pays more out then ASCAP...on a hit song that can be quite a bit of loose change. But I believe they give the writers the same support. you can use their writing rooms and meet with your rep....Hope this helps some.

Oh and I believe one difference is one organization is owned by the artists, writers, etc. and the other organization is owned by the industry. Can't remember which one but I think the arts etc are ASCAP...someone please correct me if I'm wrong!

I joined BMI online (I don't have anything I'm pitching yet, it just felt nice and professional to do it!) and it was free. When I write a new song or start playing it out at open mics or put it here, I register the title online. Not a big deal.
Plus they gave me a discount on my Performing Songwriter subscription. Sweet.

Good luck!
Linda

Thank you, ladies, I'm still thinking on it....

Snake, it doen't really matter which PRO you join. Their data bases are linked, and in fact linked globally.

All writers who release material should always register their work with a PRO. You never know, in ten or twenty years time, when someone stumbles acroos an old piece of work, takes it up and makes a hit of it, you get a check in the mail.

It's just sensible.

cheers, niteshift

There actually are some differences, but the bottom line is there's few advantages of one over the other except for ASCAP's Plus Program which sets money aside for indie writers who get some airplay (or net play) or do a lot of live performing of their own songs but get no royalty checks. I know many JPF members who get from a couple hundred to a couple thousand dollars every year from that program. (I know a famous writer/artist who gets about 7-15K a year since for some reason he doesn't show up on surveys.. won't name him though as I was told in confidence). BMI has no corresponding program. Now their claim is they don't pay that because they get it right in the first place... logical argument.. whether it is true I can't say.

SESAC is a private for profit company. Jody Whitesides is the expert on those guys. Ask him. ASCAP once sponsored JPF awards... BMI once took a bunch of us out for a nice dinner at a famous Washington, DC A-List restaurant. Both probably cost the same amount when compared! = )

Brian

How can you have a song registered with ASCAP and not be an ASCAP member?

Hey Eb,
Just a guess, but I'd say a co-write...

Heidi got it, although it's technically my own lyric, just a couple of our own set it to music, and are handling the finer details, which includes ASCAP.....

Think I might go with BMI, but that PLUS thang Brian talked about does sound cool.....

Wonder if SESAC would even be interested?

Brian,

I thought about 3 months ago, I read they were doing away with the Plus thing.

Does that mean it's about the same between all of them now?

BMI sounds like a good bet, but that's not because I actually KNOW anything, just goin' from what I see here....

SESAC is a little more selective in their representation of artists. Generally you have to know someone to get a meeting. However, it doesn't hurt that you're in Nashville. They have a strong presence there and do represent country music. SESAC usually looks for artists/writers that are already published and have material out for public consumption.

Your best bet if you're interested in looking at SESAC is to go to their offices and request a meeting with a representative. Tell them you're looking between ASCAP, BMI and SESAC and want to know first hand what SESAC does. That's a good way to get in for a meeting.

Humm,
If a writer is already published that means they have signed with a publisher. Does that mean a writer has to change from the PRO they are already with to sign with SESAC????

Hi Guys and Gals:

Snake: When did ASCAP begin charging $25.00 to join as a regular member? I didn't pay a dime. They don't charge you to register as a publisher either... as does BMI.

From all I have read... SESAC is by invitation only. They won't even answer an e-mail from a nobody like me.

Ray: I believe it is very difficult to switch from ASCAP to BMI or to SESAC for that matter... and vice-versa. Not impossible, mind you. When I joined ASCAP, I had first started filling out the forms for BMI (on-line) but had not completed everything. My partner at the time was with ASCAP and he convinced me it would be difficult for us to work together if we were in different PROs. ASCAP gave me the third-degree and it took me awhile to finally get through the doors.

I only bother to register my songs with ASCAP when my publisher (Me) creates an album. I've also stopped copyrighting every song I write (through the Copyright Office at the Library of Congress) unless I believe there is real commercial potential. According to the law as quoted so often in most of the stuff we read about copyright... the song is "copyrighted" the date it is put down on paper and/or recorded. I'm sure that's true to the extent of the intent of the law... but it's a moot point if you lose the litigation because you have no "formal" copyright.

Confusing... ain't it!

All my best,

Dave Rice

Ray, no is the answer. You can be self published. All published means is that it's available for public purchase and someone is selling it. That could be you.


Dave, SESAC is a bit more exclusive. It is advantageous if you get a personal recommendation from a SESAC member. Even then it doesn't guarantee SESAC will take you as a member. It's a matter of whether you fit with the representative you'll be working with. I got a good friend of mine a meeting, unfortunately it didn't work out with my rep, however, my friends partner got another meeting in Nashville and got them in that way. As it was a better fit with the Nashville rep. So while they may seem impossible to get into, it's not, but they are selective. Because they are for profit, they want their writers/publishers actively doing things to get their music out there.

It's not difficult to transfer from one PRO to another. But it is a process. I was with BMI and switched to SESAC for reasons of me feeling like SESAC would take more personal interest in me. I got my own meeting with SESAC based on a seminar I attended in Los Angeles - so they do work with non-famous peeps. It took a year to get everything straightened out and transfered. Because you have to wait for your current PRO contract to be coming up for renewal or refusal. Usually it's every 2 years or something close to that. I was fortunate to be at the tail end of my BMI contracts.

It's pure FUD that you have to write only with writers in your PRO. I write with others who are with BMI and ASCAP all the time. All you have to do is make sure the copyrights and writers agreements are signed and everyone is happy with their share.

And no my mommy didn't need to help me figure it out.

In fact, it can be advantageous to write for different PROs. ASCAP and BMI had and I assume still have a program where if a co-writer with the other PRO got a bigger payment, the first PRO would match it for their writer. So, the advantage comes in if they are actually different. One of you will always get more money because they'll match the higher payment.

As for SESAC, I too have found you have to be referred. I didn't press it but when I heard that I was done with them. I figured if they didn't do anything to help undiscovered writers there was no need to fool with them. One advantage to SESAC is (1) if you have a hit, you have more chance to be their writer of the year because you have less competition, which brings no money but sure does feel good, and (2) they use to figure payments in a way that was easy to understand and follow and some said you always knew how much you'd get before you were paid.

ASCAP has always seemed more accessible to me than BMI. That was true 20 years ago and was true earlier this year. One of the best music biz guys I ever met in Nashville was at ASCAP and one of the worst was there too. I tried not to deal with the jerk, who was still helpful in some ways, and I got by.

Again, it's easier if you're referred. It's NOT the only way to become a SESAC member. SESAC does do things to help their lessor known writers. I have first hand experience with it (part of the reason I left BMI - BMI kept blowing me off). Yes, SESAC's accounting is much easier for me to follow than BMI's.

It comes down to whom you can develop a good working relationship. It's really that simple.

As a side note: a funny moment I had was about a year or so ago at TAXI's road rally when they had a room of roughly 1200 artists/writers and they asked people to raise hands for ASCAP (lots of hands went up) then for BMI (lots of hands went up), then SESAC (one hand went up, mine).

In Canada we have no choice,it's SOCAN or nothing,makes it easy to choose.

Gosh,
It looks like a vicious circle. You have to have a big hit to join SESAC. You probably won't have a big hit more likely no hit if you aren't signed with a major publisher who has access to the major record labels/artists. So a major publisher, who it is next to impossible to send material to, doesn't sign songs by SESAC writers because they are scarce to begin with, because of SESAC'S policys, has BMI and ASCAP afiliations. So a BMI writer, for instance is signed and the song is a big hit. Are they now going to leave BMI and join SESAC? I don't think so. Self Publishing, such as it is, and a artist being his own record label won't have a big hit in the best of cirmstances. The best I heve ever heard is some artists selling 10 to 30,000 albums. Most a fraction of that. Unless you have a hit song out there no PRO will be better than another. YOU STILL HAVE TO WRITE THE HIT SONG. SOMEONE HAS TO RECORD THAT SONG. IT HAS TO BIG A BIG SELLER. ONLY YOU CAN DO THAT.

This is a patently false statement about SESAC.

I am in a strange place now, it seems since the song project, "Cold Hard City Streets" was killed here on the boards, but I have looked around, and it hasn't been killed elsewhere.

It is still listed on the ASCAP website.
I talked to someone at ASCAP in New York today, and she said that I would HAVE to become a member, or I will be fucked out of any royalties that may come from it.

I asked her if I could withdraw my work, and any and all association with said project, but she said I need entertainment attorney to look at it.

They still want to charge me $25.00 to join, too.....

Could we please use a little cleaner language. Not everyone wants to read garbage.

That isn't the issue here. Sorry to say this, but it's true.
We aren't in church here, reality is tough sometimes.....Language is our medium to express ourselves, NOT to whine so hopelessly about one little word.

So, is there anyone who can tell me what I need to do about the issue of dealing with a PRO?

You're on a public forum. Seems most of your post I read are whining. Why don't you have respect for the other thousands of people here beside you? Most of which would rather not read street talk expressed as Language.

Snake,
May I suggest you check out http://www.eyeball-records.com and J. Gale Kilgore. He makes demos for 19.00. Then you can assess your songs a bit better to see where you are as a writer. There is no problem to join a Pro but if you have no songs demoed to pitch??, there is no reason to join. And it doesn't cost anything. I think there are branches there in Nashville for all the Pro's so you can walk in the door for a first hand look.

If you are finding the music business is a hard nut to crack, well welcome to the club!

Snake

Who registered the song with ASCAP? You say you have not joined ASCAP. You cannot register a song with them if you are not a member. If the song was never completed and never published or performed in a public medium how was it registered. This makes no sense.


According to what I saw on the ASCAP database there are two writers listed for the song. Did you have a cowriter?
The performer is also listed.
Someone had to register it. I would think that person would have to remove it.

If you join ASCAP online I am sure it is free to join. I joined online last year and there was no charge.

Hey Snake

Just checked their website and sure enough your right ASCAP is now charging for the privelage BMI here I come. Actually I just signed up with be BMI so we'll see if I get accepted. sorry about your luck with Cold Hard Streets.
Derek

"Snake

Who registered the song with ASCAP? You say you have not joined ASCAP. You cannot register a song with them if you are not a member. If the song was never completed and never published or performed in a public medium how was it registered. This makes no sense.


According to what I saw on the ASCAP database there are two writers listed for the song. Did you have a cowriter?
The performer is also listed.
Someone had to register it. I would think that person would have to remove it.

If you join ASCAP online I am sure it is free to join. I joined online last year and there was no charge."

I'm told differently, that's all I know.
As far as the registration, I didn't do it. I was not informed, asked, nor told about it until it was already done.

Also, it was placed on a website for paid downloading, and I was not informed of that either, until it was already done.

I really want to withdraw my name and my work completely.

Why am I always the last to know anything?

if that's true, then it sounds like grounds for a major formal complaint on whoever uploaded the song and registered it to ASCAP's and other music websites without your involvement. I'd be very ticked off and be like, "Hey, what's up with this?". IMHO


markus

As am I. Thank You.

OK, so what must I do in order to withdraw my name and my work and completely do away with and and all involvement?
See, the issue with going to retain entertainment attorney is what broke this whole thing up, and NOW it sounds like I will need to do that after all, anyway.

I should be paid to live on this planet.

I think if you just sent a PM to niteshift, he would gladly remove the song from the ASCAP listing. Continuing to air this stuff on a public forum is pretty counter-productive and just put you in a bad light.

Kevin

I'm not trying to do that, I'm looking for advice...This is a music related issue, and I don't have anyone else available to ask.........Not anyone who really knows about this sort of thing...