JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Industry Message Forum Song Plugging Agreements

Hi all,

I'd like advice on song plugging agreements. I was just sent an agreement from Ambassador Charlie Ray (at International Talent Group) mentioning one of my songs, had my writing name exact and home address. Non-transferable agreement to plug song for rest of year for a fee that is supposedly money back guaranteed if no offer comes up on the song by end of year. It all sounds great but too good to be true and am also curious how they found me since I did not post anything specifically to them. I saw an old post on here about this organization that didn't sound like they were legit (from 2001) but am wondering if anyone has more current info on this.

Thanks
Michael

I would suggest going back to the 2001 thread and read it. We have a couple of entertainment attys. on board so wait around and maybe one of them may chime in. Ben

Micheal,

See how it works by reading the new thread I just stated call "how it works from the radio side.

Byron

I believe Dude McLean had a Up Front And Personal meeting with Charlie Ray recently. He would probably say that the information fron 2001 is still pretty accurate.

Did you possibly send some songs to someone in Nashville recently? That is probably where he got you information.

Only place recently (like in last few months) was to Hannibal Hellwick at Diamond Ram Music Publishing. It seemed legit and he did not ask for any money just said he had heard my material and wanted a CD of my work to try and market. Haven't heard anything since, but not out any money either.

I guess I should ask if anyone has heard about Diamond Ram Music or Hannibal Hellwick as well.

I agree the Charlie Ray thing just seems odd and doesn't sound right. They are also asking for $250 upfront.

Diamond Ram is CP4 is Charely Ray is.........a fool and his money soon go seperate ways, if you know what I'm sayin........

money up front is usually really spelled R-U-N...especially when they FIND you...You can pay for services you think might help you when YOU research WHO and WHY to hire someone,otherwise it just seems too risky, there are plenty of sharks swimming in the music business waters...good luck

these are notes from a Craig Bickhardt class I recently took...MJ

EXAMPLE 7: SAMPLE BONUS STRUCTURE FOR INDEPENDENT SONGPLUGGER

Album Cut - $500
Gold CD - $500
Platinum CD - $500
Multi-Platinum CD - $500

Single Release - $500
Chart Position Top 50 - $750
Chart Position Top 40 - $1000
Chart Position Top 30 - $1500
Chart Position Top 20 - $2000
Chart Position Top 10 - $3000
Chart Position Top 5 - $4000
Chart Position #1 - $5000
Bonus Multiple weeks at #1- $500 per week

Total for a Platinum CD cut that goes to #1 = $19,250 owed to Plugger


royalty notes just for info:
EXAMPLE 2
2.a - The value of a copyright: Two Writers, Two Publishers

Mechanical Royalties From A Platinum CD cut:
600,000 units x $.091 per unit = $54,600
400,000 units x $.068 per unit = $27,200 (Record Club sales)
TOTAL = $81,800 Split between all writers and publishers

Performance Royalties FROM TOP FIVE COUNTRY RADIO HIT
$500,000 split between 2 writers and 2 publishers ($125,000 each).

Totals:
Writer One: $125,000 (Performance) +$20,450 (Mechanical) =@ $145,000
Publisher One: $125,000 (P) +$20,450 (M) =@ $145,000
Writer Two: $125,000 (P) +$20,450 (M) =@ $145,000
Publisher Two: $125,000 (P) +$20,450 (M) =@ $145,000

2.b Two Writers, One Self-Published
Totals:
Writer One Owns Publishing: $250,000 (P) + $40,900(M) = @ $291,000
Writer Two: $125,000 (P) + $20,450 (M) = $145,400
Publisher Two: $125,000 (P) + $20,450 (M) = $145,400

If a songplugger gets all these bonuses,why would they charge a fee up front.They should just pick songs that they feel were great and pitch them like crazy.This way the songwriter is not wondering if the songplugger is accepting his/her song just for the pitching fee,and the songwriter doesn't have to wonder if the plugger is actually pitching the song.I'd gladly pay the bonus but I'm dubious about handing over large fees to someone I don't know.

Everett,
The ones who charge a percentage or a bonus structure are the ones to get, they don't produce anything, they don't get anything. Like we've both said , the ones who want fees up front probably make their living off of those fees, who the heck needs cuts when there's a bunch of people giving you $250 up front. Let's see if I can find just 1 person a day to give me $250 that's 30x$250...that's $7500 a month $90K a year...and since I'm not actually doing much of anything,I can work somewhere else and draw a paycheck there too!
I am starting to do some research myself about independant song pluggers, but I'm not ready to say I know squat about squat other than fee up front means No thanks...MJ

There song pluggers and there are song pluggers..

Even if you are not in "town" you can be ,in many cases , better than they are.

Call the record company and ask who is cutting and who is on sked to cut.Find out who the producer is going be...who is their manager,agent etc...All of that info is pretty easy to get.
It is called doing your home work...

I wish they would hurry up with my book, cuz I spell it out in detail how do go about these things, and some ways that even the publishers donot do...etc...

Dude...

http://songconsultant.com

Great info folks. This is very helpful. Now I know to immediately throw anything like this away if it comes in the mail again.

Too bad it has to be so difficult and having to watch out for so many things, but that's life I guess.

Take care

Hi Moker,

I am singer songwriter from Ottawa Canada. I just hooked up to this site recently and I find it quite interesting. I get the sense that you have some good advice in regards to the business side of things. After I have written a tune I just want to move on to the next one. There is always another song to obsess over. I find the business aspect of it all a mystery in a way. I am just not geared that way, although I realize it represents a far greater percentage than the actual creation process. I really have done very little in the buiness networking side of things. I guess that is why I came to this site and I am writing you right now. I am not in a postion to gig right now so I would like to pitch some tunes for others to record. I guess I just want to do SOMETHING proactive. I am anxious to check out your tunes. Any advice would be apprecieated. I am on myspace at http://www.myspace.com/daveleigh


Thanks in advance
Dave

I don't know much about song pluggers except what a very well connected person in Nashville told me.

quote;
I have never known of a major hit (top 40 billboard) being cut as a result of being pitched by a songplugger. If you want to get cut you need a publisher.

This statement may be factual. Maybe the fellow really has no knowledge of an instance where a songplugger got a cut. But, that does not mean it doesn't happen. I know many instances of songpluggers getting cuts. Major cuts. Hit singles.

One songwriter I know--a former ASCAP writer of the year, and author of scores of cuts--employed a songplugger full time. That plugger once told me that over a 12-month period he had made over 3000 pitches and had gotten 6 cuts. That is a very poor percentage...that resulted in lots and LOTS of big royalty checks.

Hi All,
I have read that some song pluggers won't take just any material. And they cost quite a bit if they do take your material. Unless you have bookoo money to spend you need to pass on song pluggers. There is probably no easy way to get your songs to those are in a place to actually use them. For the most part you can't submit to the Major Producers seeking songs for an Artist. You can suscribe to a tip sheet, buy the Songwriter's Market, published yearly in late September or so or try making contact thru your Pro. TAXI is another place you can use. Last but not least you can try making cold contacts in person.

I have suscribed to The Parade of Stars Tip sheet of which has a Web Site and you will get a bi-weekly mailing by E-mail if you suscribe. http://www.paradeofstars.com .

If you do use a plugger and are succesful they will most likely have a publisher that they use. Usually they will also want publishing. If you don't belong to a Pro you will have to join one at that time.

I would not spend a lot of money trying to get your songs thru doors. I have all my songs on CD, can copy them to CD, print out the lyric sheet, have a cover letter that I use, a 6x9 envelope template in my computer that I address and print out when an opportunity is listed. If you don't have a good system for submitting songs you should get that done.

My submissions are very presentable. The better your package looks the more sucessful you will be.

That is great to hear. It is good to know that some things do work.
Would you care to share the title of the song(s) and the name of the songplugger(s) that were successful. I for one would be interested in using them.

Dont get mixed up by the term "songplugger"..

The song plugger was the fellow who pitched songs for the publisher and at the direction of the publisher and the "plugger" worked for the publisher and no one else.period.

All music publishers have one to 3 or more song pluggers.
Many hit songs have been pitched by these folks, over the years.

Then you have :::: independant songpluggers , who are working for themselves. They donot own the song , they charge you a fee for pitching your songs..You keep your publishing etc..

Dude...

http://songconsultant.com

I believe Mike Dunbar speaks music industry Legalese.

Nobody takes money from musicians as a legit business, (at least up front.) figure it out this way, if people believe you have what it takes, they are willing to take a percentage of what you make. Money up front means they don't believe in you, or your talent at all. the difference between them and the millionaire on the corner with a sign that says "will work for food" is, this guy knows where you live. and the other guy just thinks he knows where you are driving to.

\\

Moker, thanks for breaking it down for us like that. it makes the industry seem more real.

-steve

Lets see..No one takes any money up front?...Really?

how about lawyers?
how about studios?
how about a shuttle service to move your bands equipment?
how about the consulting services that are not ripoffs?
how about the instrument company ?
how about seminars on the industry?That are all over the country
how about singing lessons?
how about instrument lessons?
how about having a lead sheet made?
how about college and your music degree?

Dude...

http://songconsultant.com

Dude,

Good points, but not apples to apples exactly. The service providers you listed provide a specific service that is tangible and measurable for the most part. Studio time. Contract work. Cartage. etc. If someone is offering a specific service for an up front fee, I see no problem with that. If someone is promising stardom or getting you a hit and wants money up front, I'd treat it a bit differently than paying a college for tuition. People shouldn't be paying a publisher to "publish" their song.. artists shouldn't be paying a record label for a "label deal." That's not how it works as we both know, but not everyone reading this does.

Brian

Brian...Agreed..

My message was that there are services that are paid for upfront and they are legit...

You have to know which of those are legit,and not lump them in all in one basket ,with a blanket statement.

Hopefully this forum will clear up some of the misconceptions of dealing with publishers and artists and producers..And I think it is..

The biggest rip are those companys that want the writer or the artist to pay for publishing their song. Some of the song plugger companys are a rip, some of , if not all of, the artist companys that you pay upfront to make you a star ,are a rip.

I know of a record company that was really just a tax shelter thing..they didnt really want to make money..
But they released an album and a single ,just like a real record company...
Bam.. right up the charts without any promo...
Bam a grammy...
Bam a star act was born from a rip lable...Well maybe not a rip lable but not a real label either...

And the act had several other top 10 hits ...

That was not the norm...They were an exception to the rule.

Dont count on being the exception to the rule.

Dude...

http://songconsultant.com

Dude, sounds like The Producers movie, ha

I got an email soliciting songs for TV and movies from Jessica Culpepper Music. I googled it and it turns out to be the publishing arm of Charlie Ray. Just in case anyone else heard from them also.

Who is Charlie Ray??? I got that message too.

Bree

Read this thread.

Shark,baby,shark.

Hi Friend

Dont send them a penny, but ask them what songs they have placed with top acts,
If you do that you wont get an answer, sorry friend but No legitimate company puts out offers like that.

The whole thing is a scam, and tell them I said so.

Matt Stoneham

Do not trust Charlie Ray his is a crook .
He is not a fair music guy he will cheat you.
At one time he offered to publish songs but took half the publishing royalities but the writer paid the full cost to pitch/promote the song. This guy is not to be trusted...

Do not just Charlie Ray his is a crook .
He is not a fair music guy he will cheat you.
At one time he offered to publish songs but took half the publishing royalities but the writer paid the full cost to pitch/promote the song. This guy is not to be trusted...

Do you have a link to the 2001 thread?

For the most part, if you did not solicit this company, I would be skeptical.There are no shortage of songs or writers in Nashville. most cuts come from inner circle, artists, producers, people the artist knows, major labels, publishers, etc. What do they need yours for?

There are people getting names from people that register songs for copyright, hundreds of other sources. With Google and search engines it is pretty easy to get that information.

Everett, the days of waiting till a song earns something and taking a percentage are pretty much gone. Even if they believe wonderfully in you, waiting 5-8 years to be paid for something just is not going to happen.

The best pluggers, (Sherril Blackman) have clients that do pay them up front but most of those writers have previous track record. Sherril takes 5 at a time.That is it. If he doesn't belive in what you are writing, he doesn't take you.

A similar example is my arrangement with Sharp Objects. While I have a "back end" deal, which no money is transferred unless something is making money, there are other sides of that coin. That takes being fairly well known before that happens. That is called "Track record." But it should tell you something that both Sharp Objects, my song plugger and Best Built, my publishers have both come to me with help getting songs to Frankie Ballard and Steel Magnolia, who are both current artists and both friends of mine. That is how hard it is to get appointments to pitch songs.

MAB