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I saw Tricia Baker's thread on the 3/4 "Waltz" time signature.

In the song mentioned below, I use a time signature in my verses which I thought was 6/8. A Jazz base player friend told me it is 6/4. I added the 3/4 change in the choruses, to give the song dynamics, and a lively feel to the choruses.

Some songwriters also use a 3rd change (sometimes an off beat) in the bridge to really add dynamics.

You can hear this example in my song THAT OLD HILLBILLY SONG on,

www.soundclick.com/coolcatcal

In the verses the measures are accented with the snare drum on the 4th beat;
1 2 3 [4] 5 6 - 1 2 3 [4] 5 6

Is this 6/4 or 6/8?
Does the accent with the snare on the 4th beat have anything to do with the time signature, or is it irrelevant?
How do we recognize a 6/4 , or 6/8?

Rock On!

~C~









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I think what you describe is 6/8 time. I used the example of "House of the Rising sun" I don't think 6/4 time is used much but I guess it would be a slower version of 6/8 time assuming the top number (6) is how many beats there are per measure and the bottom number (4) represents that the quarter note (1/4) gets the count. In 6/8 time, there are six beat per measure and it is the 1/8 note that gets the count.


"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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I had a play around in it using Soundrek Jammer, and basically, it gives you a similar time frame in eight bars as you would get in 12 of 4/4 time.
It would suit R&R quite well I believe.
As 6/8 also does.
Probably would be fun to try it in old country too I think.
I tried it as both 60 and 120 BPM and liked both. The former more than the latter.
Graham

Last edited by Graham Henderson; 08/15/07 08:56 PM.
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Cal Offline OP
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Hey Samuel-
THE HOUSE OF THE RISING SUN is a good example.
Yeah, that beat is very similar.
I originally thought time signature I'm referring to was 6/8;
but a musician friend told me it was 6/4.
Confusing isn't it.
Well, in my example there are no 8th notes???
You'd think the 6/8 time would be a lot peppier like the Animal's tune you referred to; 123456-123456.

Tnx for the help.

Graham-
Looks like an interesting box you have.
That beat I'm inquiring about seems to have a greater effect used in slower tempos.
The music on MUSIC FROM BIG PINK by THE BAND used many of these back beats in there music.

Tnx

~C~



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First, what is the length of the melody or chord changes? If they take 6 beats to repeat then it's 6 and not 3. Take Money by Pink Floyd - that's in 7, the movement of the figure in that song takes 7 beats to repeat.

To determine if a division is in 8th's or quarters is determined by pulse of the drums or tempo. Putting just a snare hit on 4 tells absolutely nothing. In fact for the most part I'd be willing to bet most drummers would play it very similarly to 4/4 except their fills would come in for the 5th and 6th beats instead of 3 and 4. If you're able to feel an 8th between the beat then it's likely in 6/4. If there is no in between on the beat it could very well be 6/8.

Most of it is semantic. All beats break down to 2's and 3's. So whether you count it as 6/8 or 6/4 doesn't matter, it's still counting to 6. Or it could be three groups of counting 2, or wo groups of counting 3. It's all in the accents and feel of how you're putting the beat together.


Jody Whitesides
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For anybody interested I did a sing of the Euginje Field's Long Ago poem over what i came up with in 6/4.
It is 12 bar and that created a bit of a distraction as the poem sings in 16 bars at 4/4 time and the divisor differance twix that and 12 at 6/4 threw me a bit.
Not being able to see my backing track because of having the lyric on the web page up also threw me a bit, but near enough for the purpose it is up there.
here is the link:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=7032&songID=5671328
Graham

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Cal Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Jody Whitesides
First, what is the length of the melody or chord changes?


Hey Jody-
Did you have a chance to take a listen to the song I mentioned?
All of the measures in the verses have six quarter note beats, and have one chord. Two measures have six quarter note beats, but have two chord changes.
The base guitar and base drum, are only used once; to start each measure. They signify the start of each measure.
I would think both the base drum, base guitar, and the snare all give a "pulse" to those measures.
I don't think using more than one chord change matters,
if the math in each measure is the same.
Shouldn't this time signature be specifically 6/4?

Tnx

~C~

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Chord placement can be any way you want it provided it feels right for theb flow of the song Cal.
I just had a look and that one I did has a mix of one. two (and on varyung beats) , and three chords to the bar.
Graham

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Let me clarify that length = how many beats your motif of your melody or chords is. Not how many notes or chords are in that motif.

As for what instruments give a pulse. Any instrument can. The question becomes how many are moving at the same rate or flow. That then becomes the main pulse of the song. It's very easy to have most of the band playing one pulse, while another instrument can double time or half time that pulse.

Personally, I think you're thinking too hard about it. Just play the music as you intend it to sound without worrying if you're in a time signature.


Jody Whitesides
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And yes.
If it has six quarter notes (or variations there of) to the bar, it is 6/4 time.
Graham

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Cal Offline OP
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Thanks Graham, Jody-
It can be complex; music that is.
I wanted to verify the corrrect time signature, because at times, I will post it along with the BPM's on the lyric sheet.


~C~


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Not having listened, only reading, but if it's similar to House of the Rising Sun, the beat is 6/8, which is quite common in rock. 6/4 ? no, haven't haven't come across it and can't name a song which has that rythem.

cheers, niteshift

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Cal Offline OP
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Tnx Niteshift-
Yeah, the time signature in my song THAT OLD HILBILLY SONG is similar, but sounds different from THE HOUSE OF THE RISING SUN.
Tricky isn't it.

~C~


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Cal Offline OP
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Hi Folks-
Can someone actually listen to my song?
Comparisons are good, but to give an accurate time sig,
the song needs to be listened to.

Not a real big deal, just a bit of a quandary for me.

Tnx

~C~





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I took a quick listen.

It's 6/4.


Jody Whitesides
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Cal Offline OP
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Jody-
Thanks for the listen, and the help.

~C~

If one does a search on 6/4 time signatures, there is a Grateful Dead site where they show a ton of songs, each with several different sigs; some of them are pretty interesting.

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I took a listen... I believe you're in 6/8 for the verses with one standard 6/8 drum beat and the chorus is still in 6/8 but the drums switch to a waltz beat.

In my experience with time signatures, 6/4 is more commonly used when the beat pattern is 4/2 or strong 6.

Someone said it best...... it doesn't really matter. Just play and enjoy.

Dave

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Cal Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Dave Derbes
I took a listen... I believe you're in 6/8 for the verses with one standard 6/8 drum beat and the chorus is still in 6/8 but the drums switch to a waltz beat.
Dave


Hi Dave-
Thanks for the visit and the listen.
One question regarding my chorus;
How can there be two different time signatures at one time?

~C~

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Cal,
you are in "6" throughout the song, it's just the way the drummer plays his beat in the 6. one portion has the snare drum accenting on count 4....which is like 6/8 or 12/8 and the other section the snare drum is being played more waltz-like and is struck on counts 2,3 and 5,6. And that's ok.....



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