JPF Home Page Forums Musician Gear and Techniques General Technical Forum Windows Vista may not be a good choice for audio

An interesting read about the core changes on the new Microsoft Vista; Report written by Peter Gutmann, Computer Science Dept., Auckland University, New Zealand.

It talks about the restrictions Vista makes on audio playback quality and how the "Protected content"(DRM) will disable basic audio/video functionality.

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt


Please, no "Just go buy a Mac" comments...Jody!!

Well now it seems as if Microsoft is looking to make the world a difficult place for third party developers now don't it?

First with security developers, now with audio stuff. Even the Zune will wrap a song in some type of DRM despite Microsoft claiming it doesn't. But how else does it kill a song that was "squirted" by a non-signed band?

Jody

Well, that's a good question.

I'm looking at it more from the position of someone who likes to use Windows machines for recording. There are several good, inexpensive applications for that platform, but using them with Vista might be out of the question.

Crap, we were waiting for Vista to come out before we bought a new computer...It's ALWAYS something

Here's a link to a less invovled article, but has equal concern...

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=printArticleBasic&articleId=9005047

Just when Windows XP was getting to the point where I'd recommend it for audio as well as...uh...other computer systems.

I think I would be careful about jumping to Vista to soon. If you have older equipment it may not be compatible. They usually say it will be backwards compatible but it isn't a sure thing. I know my mixer and software is designed for Windows XP Home or Pro. It did not perform well on Windows Media edition. I had to uninstall it and reinstall XP.
So make sure everything is compatible before you upgrade. Same with some software.

If it aint broken, don't fix it.
I say that, and yet I upgraded to XP from ME and Windows 98.
Gates makes certain that the operating systems gets harder to use as time goes by.

I would just keep Vista if I had it for the net and uploading and keep the music with the older operating systems.
I'm going to have to get dragged to the new system, as always.

Matt

I'm just looking at buying a better computer for audio - and everything comes with Windows Media Edition pre-loaded. Most, or all, of my recording equipment and orchestra program are not going to work with the new operating system. So I'm assuming, when I buy the computer, that I can buy one licence for Windows XP Home and get them to replace the pre-loaded operating system.

H

I had a computer teacher in college a couple of years back that said the operating systems should have stopped with Windows 98.

Not that I'm against progress, but newer, more advanced operating systems do seem to make things far more difficult.
Especially with Windows.
I still have Windows 98 on my second computer.
4 gigs of hard drive on that old computer and I never have a problem.
The bigger the operating system, the more bugs get collected.
Everything is too big in these systems and not a lot to do with.

But I won't dare ever try to go online with that old computer.
I would probably get some bugaboo update file that would crash it.

I wish I had the smarts to make my own operating system.

Matt

No reason to get Vista for audio right now. XP can be tweaked to a <3gb install using <100mb of RAM and next to no CPU. It is fast, stable, and efficient when configured properly. Conversely, even a tweaked Windows 98 or ME system was not as stable or as fast. The same cannot be said for Vista. Vista is CONSIDERABLY more bloated than XP, and it has been proven to run SLOWER than XP on a wide variety of tests. And don't even start on the compatibility problems, lack of support for numerous sound cards & interfaces...

Avoid Vista like the plague!

Thanks for all the information, guys and gals. I was considering upgrading operating systems (I have Win98SE) later this year, but will do XP rather than Vista. I tend to avoid new stuff, anyway--especially Tools Of The Evil Empire.

Vikki, if you're having that computer built for you (and it's not built yet), it's cheaper to get it *without* an operating system, and then have the one you want installed. That's what I did with mine 3-4 years ago.

The Artist Formerly Known as Moonless Joe

Why in the world wait for that? Most reports indicated it was not going to be a good OS for music or video.

XP works just fine with a few tweaks and is quite stable. Heck, I use Win2K with great success on my recording box. It also just took a bit of tweaking and the only real issue I've seen is driver support but for what I have it's just fine, thank you.

I'm stuck with Windows on this laptop due to work requirements and on my wife's computer because she has difficulty learning new systems. My other computers run Linux and the recording programs are getting better all the time for Linux distros.

I use as little Microsoft as possible.

You should be able to purchase a pc sans OS and get that OEM price knocked off or rebated back to you. Then purchase and install an over the counter XP and you should be fine.
There were recently some issues in that regard with Dell. Folks were buying their pcs for a Linux install and did not want or need Windows.

That's an understatement. Just look at the system requirements for Vista and then read about the reality as well.

One of the students that stays with us bought a new Toshiba Laptop with Vista this month. It has been a total headache for her because it had to be tweaked so many times just to get it to display a website. It was connecting to the internet, but not allowing sites to display. There seems to be very little out there that is ready for Vista, and part of the problem was our cable provider. We are now trying to decide whether to take it back this evening and go with a Mac. I know I will not purchase a Vista system, although my company will go to it eventually.

It worked for a day or so until she installed something, then it stopped working. Even with removing the program she installed, it took a few days to get it working again. Then our cable provider made changes that knocked it out again, so I finally got it working again last night, but she is so frustrated with it she wants to get rid of it. It is a nice computer, but I think if she is already this upset with it, one more problem will put her over the top.

We considered installing XP on it or swapping it for one with XP, but the store stopped carrying XP loaded computers already, and we were advised that loading XP on a Vista ready PC will have its own problems.

Macbooks and Macbook Pros, very nice machines. Reasonable price. Can also run Windows if it's absolutely necessary.

I actually ended up getting a custom built system with Windows XP Home. Works just fine with all my audio software. (And it's like driving a jet after using a horse & buggy lol)

I wonder what the supposed positive reasons for updating to Vista are? Because I haven't heard anything but negatives from everyone, and aside from 1 comment I found somewhere that said it was a "pretty" OS, it's been all trashing all day.

So what was supposed to be the benefit of the new system? (Aside from making Microsoft some money?).


Brian

I don't really know much about Vista but like Brian, I've heard a bunch of negatives and very few,if any, positives. Windows XP is working just fine for me
Wy

Well, it's supposed to be more secure for those who browse the internet.

And don't forget it also has "Wow!" factor.

Jody

Well that's a "reason" anyway Jody. Wonder how well it fulfills, or will fulfill that.
wy

My response was mostly sarcasm. I'm not a PC user, I'm just going by the hype I've read about updating a PC.

Jody

In my opinion, the sole purpose of Windows Vista was to make Micorsoft more money. You may have noticed we've been getting a "new" (sometimes y'have to use the term loosely) version of MS-Windows every two years. And they will usually get rushed to the market with lots of fanfare but very little (my opinion) good programming, and there will be a lot of things wrong.

I've had pretty good luck waiting about two versions worth to upgrade Windows--after that length of time, somebody inside or outside Microsoft has devised enough patches to make the thing work reasonably well. I really would not consider it safe to buy a new version of Windows new.

I was under the impression Windows Vista was supposed to take advantage of the possibilities of that new 64-bit chip Intel was coming out with. Maybe it will, and maybe it won't. I don't have any of those, and probably will not be getting any any time soon. I will wait and see how the rest of y'all do with it.

The Artist Formerly Known as Moonless Joe

Well Vista is over 6 years in the making, probably 10. I remember when it was to be called Longhorn. They had to come out with it eventually because Apple had already been into it's next generation of OS for about 6 years and had many improvements during those 6 years that Microsoft was touting an OS that only now got released. Now Apple is about to release it's next version in a few months which will again put it in front of the curve compared to Vista.

Jody

p.s. - Lots of reviewers have already made the comparison that Vista is not as great or is copying a lot of OSX, and still didn't quite get it right. But that's all opinion.

NEVER buy the latest operating system because the market has to catch up....meaning applications, drivers, video cards, sound cards etc....

I'd say if you're running XP right now keep it. If you're buying new, insist on XP..especially if you're going to be running a lot of software.

In one or two years, the world will catch up...then you'll probably be OK....and realistically, MS will continue to support XP for the next several years...

I've been with desktops since DOS and with operating systems, cutting edge is truly bleeding edge


BTW, if you're in a computer store, ask them to show you Vista's new 3d graphics....chances are they can't because of hardware limitations....but man is it a selling point.

I dunno
I know macs are good solid machines with good solid operating systems.
But, I have had PC's for 15 years.
The only "Crashes" I have ever had were the result of virus's. Once I started getting serious about virus protection that became a thing of the past. I have had hardware failures, usually hard drives.
Windows XP was a lot of trouble when it first came out. Now it seems pretty stable.
Most recording problems I had were my own fault. Once I Worked out the problems I seem to be fine.
For folks wanting to buy a new PC machine without an operating system there are several places to do that. Online you can buy from tigerdirect or many other places. They offer good machines with good warranties. You can purchase the operating system separately and install it yourself, and it is easy.
One of the big problems I have found with over the counter machines with operating systems already installed is they are loaded up with a bunch of stuff you don't need. Many times those programs are only good for a short period of time then you have to pay for them or they get disabled.
you do have to be careful no matter what you buy. For instance My current PC for recording is 64 bit, but my recording equipment will not work with 64 bit windows XP. so I cannot run that. I have to have the older Windows XP which is 32 bit.

I'm getting my daughter a laptop for her senior year in high school (it'll be inexpensive, because I am waydam cheap). I was trying to explain to her why it was a good thing it was coming with Windows XP instead of Windows Vista--teenagers have to have new stuff alla time, and it's frustrating. (I never understood the need for all those shoes. I have only one pair of shoes because I only have one pair of feet. Duh.)

As far as the difference between PCs and Macs, I like Macs--I have worked with them, and they're designed for the graphic-design (and now music) stuff I do, but I could never bring myself to pay the [expletive deleted] prices they want for them. I've concentrated over the years on making PCs do the same stuff as Macs--which has occasionally been a challenge for the computer-programming education, but has worked.

I have the instruction manual for the wireless high-speed Internet adapter I got for my wife's computer, and it's a good illustration of the difference. It's a relatively thick booklet, with separate pages-upon-pages of instructions for each different version of Windows, and a CD you have to load first--and I ended up calling over an Internet-geek friend to finally make it work right.

Oh, and it has instructions for installing it on a Macintosh, too. They consist of three words: "Plug it in."

The Artist Formerly Known as Moonless Joe

Joe,

Might want to recheck that "overpriced" mentality. They're not as expensive as you think. Macbooks which are awesome laptops and perfect for students are only about $1099. You can find them with good package deals for less from www.macmall.com.

Then you have the design and elegance of Mac, and the ability run windows if you find it necessary for any reason.

Jody

Here is a link to an EQ magazine article on "Vista". There are more then a few "positives" for us music nuts, worth a gander! It seems a pity that it gets trashed right out of the gate, I think once things get sorted, it will be a robust OS for music apps.

http://www.eqmag.com/story.asp?sectioncode=36&storycode=16952

Rob

Well, that's certainly positive in nature. However, the spec sheet info Patrick posted contains a different story going on behind the scenes and that's a much different picture.

Not to mention the EQ article contains an interview with Jim Allchin who is famously quoted as saying if he didn't work for Microsoft, he'd be running a Mac. Well, maybe he already is, he's due to retire from Microsoft fairly soon if not already. (Patrick I apologize, but then I didn't say "just buy a..."). ;-)

Jody

I'm off to the Apple store.........................

(okay, not really)

Just a quick note here. I am somewhat of a computer geek. I generally build and repair my iown systems. I use Windows. However, the laptop I bought recently came preloaded with Vista Home Premium.

I am not real happy with Vista. There are some downward compatability issues. But, in some cases, there is a little known way around that. I loaded 6 or 8 programs onto my Vista machine. It would run but one of them. But, if you are logged on as the Administrator, you can right click on the on the Desktop icon. As usual, you will get a menu. (Remember, right click is to get information...left click is to execute a function, generally speaking). On the menu you get with the right click, one of the options is "Run As Administrator". Left click on that. Every one of my programs that would not run previously on Vista, now runs this way with no problems.

Jody...I was very tempted to get a Mac this time. The only reason I didn't is becasue I have so many thousands of dollars tied up in Windows software. Also, all 5 of the books that I have written have been formatted in MS Word. Perhaps Mac can read and use MS doc. files. I do not know.

I just get tired of having to answer the permission request from Vista on almost everything I do. The other two computers on my home network are XP and work just fine.

For what it is worth. Have a good day, folks!


Alan

Jody, $1099 is a better price, but for me, I'm afraid even half that would be too much money. (*Told* you I was waydam cheap.)

I think the "permission" thing with WinVista would get on my nerves really early. Ought to be a "Joe can do everything so don't bother him" routine one could write that would take care of that--just automatically grant permission to do anything I wanted. And then I'd put it in the autoexec.bat file so it'd execute when the 'puter booted up.

And if WinVista wouldn't let me do that, I probably would not buy the program.

Joe

Well, MS does make Word for the Mac, so that's only a minor i$$ue.

I wonder if running Vista as administrator makes it more vulnerable to "worms" the way running XP as admin does.

Anyway, I'm building a new Windows XP puter for recording for $860. It'll be Intel dual-core, and it Won't be hooked up to the internet!

Our pro football teams change their shirt design every season. It keeps the sponsors happy and makes fans buy new replicas every year in order to keep up with the trend at around £100 a time. Maybe they stole the idea from Microsoft. A pal of mine has two PCs one (he calls it his dirty one) he only uses for surfing etc. the other (his clean one) he uses for home projects business and personal stuff.

Actually that article didn't sound all that hopeful to me. It sounded really annoying. Vista sounds like a useless disaster. Maybe I'll go back to Macs. For me, I was a mac fan who simply couldn't afford to stay in that format. I still can't afford much, but if I have to buy a new laptop anyway, maybe I'll switch back. I do like my current Sony Desktop and my giant 24 inch flat screen, but the mac powerbooks look cool. They don't do a great job running windows though (at least my friends with them have told me it's a crapshoot). But with Vista on the inevitable horizon, it might be the time to switch back. I still have 13 old Mac computers dating be to the SE in my basement.

Brian

iMacs start at $999. That includes the 17" monitor and an Intel dual-Core Processor. These things kick butt on most every audio software out there.

The cheapest Dell I saw that had an Intel dual-core processor was a Dimension 520 and sold for $859 without a monitor. This is the "Apple-to-apples" (ha!) comparison with the same 1.86Ghz Core Duo processor.

Based on the above, I don't think the price of Macs should be the main concern any more. It doesn't look like you can buy a new Dell without Vista. They all list "FREE upgrade to Vista included". Maybe they come with XP, but have a Vista installation disk?

This is rather funny to me:



I'm going to connect my new and old studio computers together using Firewire (IEEE 1394) but if I had Vista, I couldn't do it. Politics, pure and simple. Sheesh!

It's all Apple's fault ;-)

It's because they invented it.

Jody

Any truth to the rumor (heard it this morning) that Apple Computer is folding? Or is that an April Fool's thing?

Joe

It was announced back in January. There is no more Apple Computer Inc. It's not a rumor.

However there is now Apple Inc. which is a company that makes computers, cell phones, and music players. All of which run well made software specifically designed for those products.

Jody

I swear, Jody, Steve J. needs to give you an endorsement deal