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There’s a lot on this forum about song structure, and it’s all very valuable. But the bias here is toward country music, Nashville machine sort of stuff. I understand that N’ville is the best chance a lowly songwriter has to break into the big time, but are there other opportunities?

Structure first: a bridge as a requirement? How many C&W big time songs have no bridge? I can appreciate the function of a bridge, but sometimes it feels artificial.

3 verses: what if my song needs 4?

Pop music: structure? market? Pop music artists run out of material same as everyone else, long about their 3rd album (sometimes sooner). They go shopping around same as everyone else. Why doesn’t anyone ever talk about that?

Pop music: New York or LA?

Jim,

People do talk about it. The problem is that Country (and Christian to some extent) are the only formats that regularly use outside writers. Pop, R&B, Rap are producer driven. Rock and Alternative and Singer-Songwriters are typically Artist as writer driven. There's just not the same opportunities as in Country so most entry level songwriters start off in that direction, especially if they aren't artists themselves. It's just a practical thing. I myself tried to do that when I started and even had a couple country songs with publishing deals early on. But it wasn't me and I quickly diverted away, found a vocalist and did the Pop/Rock/Alt/Electronic stuff that I wanted to write.

I'd love to encourage more Pop and Rock writers to get involved here. Maybe you'll start a trend! In our awards, Country is only in the middle of the pack in terms of size. Rap, Singer-Songwriters and Rock are by far the largest (followed by Classical and Instrumental (Piano, Guitar and other) and Jazz. We can't get those folks to post here either.

= )

Brian

Yep, Brian is dead right. I've brought it up on other threads.
It's tough for an unknown songwriter to break into country but it's close to impossible in a lot of others. IMO some writers labor for years trying to break into a genre where there's little or no opportunity and I think a lot quit. Better they should find a co writer who can write country. (I'm sure they'd have lots to contribute themselves) and try to get a foothold. Contry has broadened in scope immensely in the last few years. And "then" try to navigate to what they wanta' do. Course, if they're an artist, they can put out their own album or any songwriter with the money can get an album of their songs out there. That doesn't mean those albums will sell though
Wy

I don't do country. I probably can if I wanted to, but it's not really my thing.

I do work in pop, pop/rock and R&B...diverting into urban pop and top 40 formats.

I am a lyricist, but I have built a solid writing/production team in LA that I am happy with.

With that said, we've got some projects we are currently working on with artists signed to but not limited to Universal Records and Capitol Music Group/EMI.

Yes, the top 40 genres are mainly producer driven. Writing is definitely important, but production is important as well.

A good industry friend of mine gave me some advice that worked very well for me. He said, "The entertainment industry is a relationships driven business. Go make some friends and you'll be pleasantly surprised to see how well that works out."

Truth be told, for me, it has.

Greg

You're right--there is an awful lot of attention paid to Correct Structure in country music. And you're also right that most big country hits, especially the old ones, paid absolutely no attention to that Correct Structure stuff and it made no difference whatsoever.

I expect the extent to which it matters may depend on (1) how well the artist/author is known, and (2) whether he/she is known to the Gatekeeper at all. That's the "personal relationships" dilemma that is one of the most frustrating Catch-22s in country music.

I attended a seminar a while back put on by one of those supposed powerhouses in country music writing, and what I was told in no uncertain terms was "If you want to make it in country music, you have to write songs exactly like me." My response--which got no answer, by the way--was "If I write exactly like you, why does Nashville need me? They've already got you."

I somehow doubt labels and publishers have someone at the front desk who goes through song submissions check for compliance with the Rules ("Two verses? Check. Chorus after every verse? Check. Bridge? Check. Only three chords? Check. Lyrics that don't quite make sense? Check...") But maybe they do, these days.

Joe

Jim,

Knowledge of song structure is important. If you want to creatively break the rules, you've got to know the rules. And, it helps to know that some rules are more important than others...for example, don't write songs for the radio that are fifteen minutes long.

But far more important than that is the ability to write interesting, artistic, beautiful lyrics. Lyrics that get attention, stories that interest, words that sound pleasing to the ear, hooks that people remember. And, don't forget the music. Songwriters concentrate a whole lot on lyrics but often ignore the music. The buying public concentrates a whole lot on music but often ignores the lyrics.

So, is a bridge a requirement? Maybe not lyrically, but they sure can be musically compelling, they break things up and give the listener a rest, then when the musical hook comes back everyone wants to stand up and cheer...or better yet, dance.

Three verses? They complete a musical statement, especially when they build to a chorus. Verse, verse, Chorus, verse, chorus can tease, build and deliver musically. Add a bridge and you get a wallop when that last chorus hits...musically.

Metering, that's important. If the words and music don't meter with each other it feels awkward. Awkward music makes the dancers look silly, and no one wants to look silly.

So knowledge of structure and form, combined with knowledge of genre and style can help a songwriter write well-crafted songs. But that still doesn't make them good songs. For that, you've got to be interesting, stylish, aesthetically pleasing, able to express feeling. That comes with living and talking about it. It comes with examining why songs move you and seeking songs that do. A good song is a good song. Many good songs transcend classifications like "rock" and "country." That's why Whitney Houston had a hit with a Dolly Parton song. It's why Eric Clapton had a hit with a Don Williams song (written by Don's guitarist Danny Flowers). It's why Ray Stevens had a bluegrass style hit with "Misty."

So learn to move people. And if you want to break the rules, fine, but you've got to do it in a way that nobody cares...or notices. You've got to do it with style and grace.

All the Best,
Mike

WOW!! Now THAT is an AWESOME response Mike Dunbar ... nothing but the truth .. direct from the Mentor's foot!
Joanne

I agree, Mike wonderful response to this post:)-Dana

Thanks Joanne and Dana.

Mike

I don't want to sound like an "old heel", but I must echo the praises of Mike's distinguished verbalization of song structures and it's relevance and importance. He takes a strong "stand" and gets to the "heel" of the matter and does so with so with the wisdom of an old "sole" that he deserves a day just putting his "feet" up! Those "toes" really know what they're talking about. I get a real "kick" out of his comments.

Best (foot foot foward)
Lynn

If you are looking to get some better written music for yourself you might think about collaborating with some of your Tampa Bay Jpfer's or at least getting some feed back.
There are folks that like to collaborate that write other than country or folk songs.
Just giving you another option for your creative outlet.
What Mike's foot said nails it,or, should I say boots it?


Jerry

Songs must have enough repetition to give them structure, enough change to keep them interesting.
The lyric has to tell me a coherent story, perhaps a play in 3 acts/verses, that I want to hear, and must end or resolve satisfactorily, and make me want to hear again.
The melody has to hook me, not just rise and fall, predictably, just like all those other songs that came before it. It must make me want to sing along and hear it again.
Just how it does all that is wide open to songwriter interpretation. Where to repeat, where to change, whether the pitch should go up here and down there or vice versa, are all very flexible. If you're listening, the performance will make it obvious where there's too much repetition, or too little, or where a word disappears because the pitch went down instead of up, or where the lyric didn't really add anything to advance the story, just got you to the rhyme.
The lyric has to be more than mere rhyme, which many in all genres are today, repetitive rhyme which is over in the first verse, maybe verse/chorus and then repeats until you turn it off or change the station or put in a tape, dammit! Anything but 15 repetitions of that one halfway interesting or clever line that never develops into a story!
Many rely on sadness as their emotional appeal, death and mourning. The word 'maudlin' is used in private to describe them. Who the hell wants to hear that? Others rely on sex, mainly in the video, because the lyric isn't about anything qualifying as a story. Some videos are hard-pressed to make a coherent movie, because the lyric isn't about anything.
Study Hank Williams' song structures. Look at the diversity of styles from honky tonk "Hey Good Lookin'" to "Kawliga" to "Lonesome Whippoorwill" to "I Saw The Light" to "Jambalaya" to "Cold, Cold Heart." Study the Beatles. Study Creedence Clearwater Revival. Study the classics of your favorite genre and figure out for yourself what structure possibilities exist. Why did those songs get in your head and make you want to hear them again? Why are they still good songs today? How did they become classics while many of the songs that got airplay with them have faded into oblivion? Write songs like those songs. There's a reason, a host of reasons why.

Jason Blume says it very well in his seminars. In order to communicate effectively, you have to use a language that people can understand. Song structures are the "grammar" and "punctuation" of songwriting. It's putting the song in a "listenable" form so people can enjoy them. Imagine how hard it would be to read this post if I didn't use periods, commas, Capitalize the first words of sentences, etc... Basically, the same thing applies to the "rules" of songwriting.

That's not to say you have to follow everything line by line but rather use the structure as a reference point to get you started. Practice writing songs this way so that when you are very good at using the "grammar" you'll know how to break those rules effectively and still maintain a structure that listeners can enjoy. On the radio, you only get a few seconds to compel the listerner to stay tuned. You've got to make the most of it.

Perhaps folks here are more into writing country than other types of music but I am not sure this board is biased towards country. Perhaps some types are scarce such as Rap or Hip Hop but probably all types of popular music are posted here.

Structure in songs?

I seem to remember something about Chet Atkins about being able to read music. I think he said yes but not enough to mess up my Guitar Playing.

If you have the best structured song in the world and it is rejected by everyone you may want to remember those words by Chet.

Yes I understand song structure but not enough to mess up my song writing.

I'm with Ray on this, in spirit, but I fear the reality is less flexible.

In country music, there is almost a slavish deference given to "song structure" at what I like to call the "gatekeeper" level.

When I say gatekeeper, I'm not talking about office personnel. I'm talking about industry insiders who consistently deal with amateurs songwriters as opposed to established professionals.

I would also include, in this group, those who mentor/critique amateur songwriters.

I think the general consensus among gatekeepers is that an amateur should follow the accepted rules of song structure very closely until they've established themselves as a professional. In short, professionals have earned a certain amount of trust that allows them to bend/break the rules, whereas amateurs haven't.

I personally find that approach a little frustrating but it is what it is.

Mike Dunbar made some excellent points in his post but I think even his take is more flexible than most gatekeepers.

He mentioned that you need a bridge, even if it's just musical (as opposed to lyrical), but, so far, I've found that gatekeepers aren't interested in bridges that don't have lyrics.

I'm currently working on my first "country" demo cd. I'm doing simple guitar/vocals of 5-6 songs and then, based on feedback/critiques (and my gut feeling), I'll pick the top 3 songs and have them professionally demoed.

I recently finished my first guitar/vocal and, coincidentally enough, it doesn't have a lyrical bridge. It does, however, have a musical bridge. I've had the song professionally critiqued by 6 different people and every single one of them insisted that a good song needs a bridge. The song does have a bridge, just not a lyrical one.

This is a song that I truly don't believe needs a lyrical bridge and to add one would, in my opinion, be elevating form over substance.

The problem is, I really believe in this song so I'm probably going to pay for a professional demo "as is" and hope that a polished production will help listeners "get it." I realize that I might very well be wasting my money but my gut feeling tells me it's worth a shot.

Phil C.

Mike pretty much covered everything I would have said. I believe the rules of country writing can be applied to other styles of music also. If you have a great story that is conversational and meets all the rules of country, who said you can't turn it into a blues song, or pop. It may even give you an edge against all the other writers. Do you need a bridge, maybe, maybe not. Is the song the best you can do? Are you using words and phrases just to fill in spots without regard to how they affect the story? Bottom line is no matter what your style, you can learn alot from Nashville and LA style. Use it to create your own style. We are hearing rock guitar licks in country and country licks in rock. Be different by learning what was successful.

For most of my life a bridge was something you used to walk on to cross a river.I've written many songs with out bridges and some with bridges.It depends on the song,let the song speak for itself.Very few bridges found in gospel songs.

Everett

This is excellent advice, Greg. Success, in any endeavor, always boils down to relationships.

Phil C.

First, I want to apologize to everyone for not getting back here sooner to respond. Next, I want to thank everyone for your thoughtful and considered responses. And the range of responses! From the seasoned vets and biggest of the big dogs to ...I was gonna say newbies, but Phil's not really a newbie. Just shows what a great, non-ego-driven organization this is.

You now witness why they don't call Buzz "Van the Man" for nothing! With little short order, VGB, you can become my Guru.

Hi Jim:

Great thread. Lots of interesting and informative replies. For me, the mechanics of songwriting (no matter what genre) occur long after the lyric has taken shape in my usual way of writing. The exception would be that less common occurrence (again, for me) of writing to a pre-conceived melody. I usually think of a line or hook first (no, I'm not going fishing) and that triggers the lyrical portion. Rarely, I'll conceive a melody beforehand and "flesh it out" with lyrics. Then I'll start to "shoehorn" everything into an acceptable structure.

Of the two, I still believe the melody is paramount... much as I love lyrics. Without a great melody, the song is just another awkward poem. Great poetry (when written strictly as a poem) will not always lend itself to a song without some shrinking or stretching and other modification to fit the demands of the melody... or beat or rhythm.

I try to follow the rules (as I know them) but I don't let them rule the song. Of all the previous replies, I guess Ray's hits home for me best.

Regards,

Dave Rice

Just remember like poetry... a crap song is a crap song no matter how technically correct. If 4 verses make your song better ... do it JMO of course

Some of the things that I have been told about songwriting make absolutely no sense at all, but then again, some do.

On other websites, I have been repeatedly told to stick to the cookie cutter formula that everyone else uses.
Funny thing, that used to happen long before I ever thought about moving to Nashville.

I, personally, never thought very much of the practice of mindlessly repeating the hook of a song, just to take up time..
So I don't write like that.
Also I don't really believe in writing a bridge, or whatever everyone else seems to be doing at the time, for the sake of their limited comprehension.
So I don't write like that, either.....

I do what I want.

Hey man, it's your art, are you really gonna let anyone else tell you how to do it?

If you have 4 verses, then you've probably written 2 songs.

Songs dictate their own structure if you let them. If you're forcing it into a preconceived structure as opposed to letting it find its way into the verse, through the verse, and to conclude or 'resolve' the verse, you're probably losing some real inspired words and melody. If you're going for a 2nd verse because or a preconception that it's only natural, instead of listening to the first verse and letting it tell you whether it's time for a 2nd verse or time for a chorus, you're probably losing a listener. As the songwriter you are the first listener. You have to be hooked just as you hope others will be. Listen and see if you got done in that first musical movement all that needs to be done, lyrically, melodically, to get you to the chorus. If so, find your chorus. If not, use the verse 1 melody to write verse 2 lyric to advance the story. When you get to the end of that 2nd verse it should be obvious that to repeat the musical movement you've used twice now a third time would be boring, monotonous. A new musical movement is called for. The human psyche wants a change. The different dynamic, lyric and melody, refresh the listener's attention, keeping them hooked. Set THE hook, the title, that summary line, and turn back to the first musical movement with a 3rd, and if you feel it needs it, a 4th verse, which enables you to Repeat Chorus.
Now, you may be done. Not every song needs a bridge. How long is it at this point? If you've done all this and it's 2 minutes long, splendid! It could use a bridge, enabling a final run of the chorus, hitting the hook however many times it does, and out at 3:00 and some seconds. Radio will play hell out of it so they can get back to selling commercials.
You, as the first listener, can listen to it, and if you think it doesn't need a bridge, if it is complete with verses and chorus, then you decide. A song is capable of getting the job done in many ways, sometimes with verses separate from the chorus, sometimes with verses that are so joined with the chorus you're hardpressed to determine where one begins and the other ends. Some have prechorus movements, some have tags at the end, some take liberties with variations in the final chorus to wrap things up in a satisfying way. It's your song, but listen to it and let it find its way through the melody, the story, the structure. If it hooks you, and you're not just lovin' it 'cause it's yours, odds are it's going to hook the 2nd listener, and 3rd, and so on. I'm often surprised at the structure that evolves, often surprised at the hook that pops up at the right location, when I had no idea where the song was going when I ad libbed that first line and got 'hooked.' Get hooked and let your song take you for what you know is going to be a fun ride.

I sometimes add a second chorus at the end of the song rather then a bridge.