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#455394 - 07/29/06 04:04 AM Friday, July 26th, 2006  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,761
Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,761
Indianapolis, IN USA
Hi Folks,

Been having an issue with some people about the differences between black and white right and wrong morality and moral relativism that you often find in business deals. That means that if someone doesn't break a law, but screws someone in business simply because they suckered the other guy into the deal, but did it legally, that should be okay. I say it isn't. When are we going to start living lives by doing what is right instead of what is legal? It's this skewed and dangerous mindset that allows the most serious corruption in the world to occur with the blessings of the masses. Something is right or wrong. Laws rarely are cut and dry, are usually created by those in power to help them keep power and no matter how well crafted, they are always subject to interpretation.

If someone walks up to a stranger on a street and punches them in the face, that would be wrong. If there was no law specifically outlawing it, there are many who would argue that since it's not illegal it's okay. Business regularly finds ways to screw people using the law as their weapon. Whether it is a skewed contract that is unfair but not obvious to the laymen (as we see in new digital sites all the time) or if it's a case where you can sell someone anything, make any levels of promises, true or otherwise, and if they signed the deal, they're stuck, no matter what the real truth is. This kind of stuff has always bothered me. I've always crusaded against the bullies in the school yard. But the bullies are more than just the big mean kids now.. they're corporations.. they're politicians.. they're media... they're religious representatives... they're the rich.. they're the special interest groups.. it seems there's bullies everywhere you turn always looking for the angle to screw anyone they can get away with. Often, the bottom line question of right and wrong get's totally forgotten in the ensuing power/money/influence/control grab. Sad but only getting worse.

That's what I am thinking about today.. what about you?

Brian

[This message has been edited by Brian Austin Whitney (edited 07-29-2006).]


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#455395 - 07/29/06 04:56 AM Re: Friday, July 26th, 2006  
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,065
Michael James Moore Offline
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Michael James Moore  Offline
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http://www.mjmrecords.com/media/mp3Rapture/03%20A%20Heart%20Beat%20Away.mp3 today i had to put my cat down.He was 16 years old.Life is so short so don't sweat it Brian.Your a good guy and hope you feel better.

#455396 - 07/29/06 10:14 AM Re: Friday, July 26th, 2006  
Joined: Apr 2001
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Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,761
Indianapolis, IN USA
Michael,

Sorry to hear that. Our pets are 18+ (Cat) and 14+ (Dog) and though the cat especially is in good health for his age (the dog has had a lot of issues this year) we know they are up there and that time with them is limited. Of course with a myriad of family deaths and tragedies this year, it's clear that time may be short with anyone, no matter who they are. I supposed that reflection should make me worry less about the above target.. but I also feel that is you aren't willing to do some good while you're here, what does it all really mean in the first place? Sorry again to hear about your cat. I was very fortunate for the first 40 years of my life and only had a few close deaths to deal with. In the last year alone I've had several more and 2 more very close relatives in critical condition as we speak. And I've had several close calls with my own health but I am still here ticking, so I am very aware of how fragile life is.

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#455397 - 07/29/06 10:19 AM Re: Friday, July 26th, 2006  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,761
Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,761
Indianapolis, IN USA
I just realized the date was wrong on my blogs today. Should have read Friday, July 28th! My how time is flying!

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#455398 - 07/29/06 12:21 PM Re: Friday, July 26th, 2006  
Joined: Aug 2002
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Everett Adams Online content
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Everett Adams  Online Content
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Life here on earth can be long or short but eternity is forever,and where we spend it is very important.Choices we make here will determine where we will spend the hereafter.
Choose wisely.

Everett


The more you taste the bitterness of defeat, the sweeter final victory will be

May the flowers of love forever bloom in your garden of life

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#455399 - 07/29/06 12:33 PM Re: Friday, July 26th, 2006  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


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Joined: Apr 2001
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Nashville Tennessee
Then there's "Les Miserables." The other side of the coin. Is it illegal but moral for a poor, starving person to steal food? If so, is this moral relativism?

Mike

------------------
You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#455400 - 07/29/06 04:16 PM Re: Friday, July 26th, 2006  
Joined: Apr 2001
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Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content

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Joined: Apr 2001
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Indianapolis, IN USA
In my opinion.. a hungry person left with no other options stealing food is black and white okay. But that assumes they've made the effort to find food through legitimate means and failed. That's the part that often gets left out. If a hungry person robs a liquor store, that's not okay. Nor is the use of violence to get your food. Can someone be legitimately starving after exhausting every legit possible option? Perhaps for a meal. Doubtful day after day. There's a lot of programs. And the reality is that simply asking for food to the general public would rarely fail to produce someone who would give you some food without it having to be stolen. In other countries, that might not be the case. But in the US, I doubt someone would have to steal more than 1 meal in an emergency before they could find a legit resource.

Anyone disagree?

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#455401 - 07/29/06 04:44 PM Re: Friday, July 26th, 2006  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
So morality is relative to the situaion?

------------------
You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#455402 - 07/29/06 06:20 PM Re: Friday, July 26th, 2006  
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 114
mani Offline
Serious Contributor
mani  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 114
Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mike Dunbar:
So morality is relative to the situaion?

</font>


Hi Mike,
No, I don't think the morals are relative. IMO just because the specific answer to a given situation seems variable, doesn't mean that the morals themselves are. I think the real answer to this is that morals are based on principles which are arranged in tiers, kind of like programming or code. Some morals are based on more fundamental, or higher priority code than others but each has its place and reason for existing.

Code Line 1: Life is sacred. (or use whatever equivalent word you like if you don't like the semi-religious overtone!)

So in relation to this initial line of code, which I think most of us would agree on in one wording or another, anything you have to do to perpetuate your life is acceptable bar killing. Why not killing? See Code Line 1 again!

I think the confusion about relative morals arises when more one particular code is subject to modification by another lower priority code! It seems like relativism but in reality it's just the proper answer to a different question!

Either way, I understand where Brian is coming from. My wife has been running her own business for a while with shops taking her products on consignment. She has yet to meet ONE honest person who hasn't jerked her around. Every single person in a management position has lied and taken advantage of her honesty and niceness. After much consideration and disappointment she's now not doing consignment ever again.


Mani
#455403 - 07/29/06 06:31 PM Re: Friday, July 26th, 2006  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
So some morals trump other morals? You can steal if it perpetuates your life, but you can't kill? What if you see someone about to kill an innocent child and the only way to stop them is to kill? And if you can save the child by killing, why not yourself?


Mike

------------------
You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 07-29-2006).]


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#455404 - 07/29/06 08:29 PM Re: Friday, July 26th, 2006  
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 114
mani Offline
Serious Contributor
mani  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 114
Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mike Dunbar:
[B]So some morals trump other morals?
</font>


You could put it like that. I would instead say that some morals are based on a directive with higher priority. Also, the relationship between morals may not necessarily be a case of one directive trumping the other but rather of one directive being a conditional modifier of the other. How much so and in what way, depends on where on the list of priorities they each figure. When you look at it like that, what initially seems like a subtle and semantic difference is in fact a huge gulf in meaning!


Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
You can steal if it perpetuates your life, but you can't kill?
</font>


Of course not! The example I gave in my last post was based on only a one line directive, ie: Life Is Sacred. In reality, there are so many directives and they all interact as modifiers on one another that it can be very confusing to be human!


Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
What if you see someone about to kill an innocent child and the only way to stop them is to kill? And if you can save the child by killing, why not yourself?
</font>


I say get out of there while you can!! [Linked Image]


Mani
#455405 - 07/29/06 08:55 PM Re: Friday, July 26th, 2006  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
mani,

Thanks for the discussion. I think we agree more than disagree, just using different words. Different situations have different modifiers, even the Bible says, "Thou shalt not commit murder" but then never goes on to give a black and white definition of murder vis a vis killing. In business, we try to treat each other as equals, but the truth is, we are not equal. Some of us are smart, some are not, some are devious and immoral, some are good and honest. To be a moral, as distinct from a lawful, person, I believe you end up treating people differently according to the situation. Morality is relative.

But that's my opinion [Linked Image]

All the Best,
Mike

------------------
You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#455406 - 07/29/06 10:07 PM Re: Friday, July 26th, 2006  
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 114
mani Offline
Serious Contributor
mani  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 114
Thanks for the conversation Mike! It was fun!


Mani

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