JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Brian Austin Whitney Blog Tuesday, May 16th, 2006

Hi Folks,

Okay, so I've been getting more and more annoyed at the scam artists out there who relentlessly pursue the weakest and least knowledgeable among our family of musicians. We've been fighting them all 1 at a time but there's simply way more of them than we can keep up with. So, I think it's time to declare war on the scammers, the sleaze bags, the well meaning but totally incompetent service providers and those who overcharge and under deliver to our members in all aspects of the business. Rather than simple point them all out by name, I think the best way to battle them is to start by educating our members as to what is and isn't acceptable business practices, what is and isn't a reasonable amount to pay for various services, what is fair and unfair to expect out of different professionals who serve our community and how to figure out who to trust and when.

In addition, stage 2 is going to include us finding the honest and trustworthy suppliers of all the things our members need and form some partnerships with them so that not only do we vouch for them, but we send our member business to them and in return, they offer extra satisfaction guarantees to our members, extra benefits and/or discounts and that they ALSO share some of that extra business profit with JPF to help us do the work we've been doing. I want to do it with full disclosure as well as have a moderated message board for our partners to come here directly and answer questions, resolve complaints and talk about how they do business and share in ideas on how we can all be more successful working together with companies and people who actually care and deserve the business. Consider this a comparable program to a Better Business Bureau meets the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval.

Now the only downside of this program would be if members felt we were partnering with people simply for financial gain. I think we've got a squeaky clean reputation and track record of not taking money from the many less than stellar companies who have offered it over the years. In fact, our community partners, some who support us financially and some who trade services and support with us, are all the top and most respected companies in their field without exception. Disc Makers, CD Baby, TAXI, Future of Music Coalition, Muses Muse and Virgin Digital have all put their actions where their mouths are and done amazing things for our entire community. All are the best of the best. We simply want to expand this Community Partner program to companies and individuals who can operate on an equally top notch level.

To pull this off it's going to take a great deal of communication and help from all of you.

In my opinion, we're already partnered with the finest CD Duplication company (Disc Makers), the Best Independent A&R service (TAXI) and the clear option in CD Selling Sites and Digital Sales services (CD Baby). When you're already directly partnered with the best, there's no reason to make changes. However, we have a lot of opportunities with the following:

Some of the areas we want to work with:

1. Music Instrument Retailer(s).

2. Recording Studio(s).

3. Producer(s).

4. Attorney(s).

5. Radio Promoter(s).

6. Publicist(s).

7. General Music Promoter(s).

8. Music Festival(s)/Conference(s).

9. Educator(s).

10. Song Plugger(s).

11. Live Venue(s).

12. Media Partner(s) (including magazines, websites, TV and Radio, newspapers and any other potential media partner).

13. Anything else we missed.

To start this process, we've already put out a request for info on Song Demos (which you can find posted on the General Board and elsewhere). I'd also like to open this up here for discussion on the concept, the up and downsides, things to consider and how to pull it all together. I think it's time that our entire community, even beyond the 40K JPF members and reaching out into the entire Grassroots/Indie community who have to depend on these various service providers to conduct their business and survive.

What I DON'T want at this time, is any info on the scam artists by name. We will build a database of stories and warning signs and successes and safety nets as time goes on. But we don't need to deal with any names because they names change but the scams often stay the same. Let's attack the bad business practices first and then identify those companies and individuals who do it right the first time.

So what do you all think? It's 6:13am here and I've been working all night once again (we just finished Hawaiian music). I'm fired up.. how about you?

Brian

[This message has been edited by Brian Austin Whitney (edited 05-16-2006).]

I think this is a great thing,it'll take a lot of the guess work out of who is good and honest and who is not.

As far as demos go,there are many out there in all price ranges,some good,some bad.I've had demos done from $50.00 up to $300.00 and different prices in between.The higher the price does not always mean a better demo.Some demo studios are run by multi talented people that can sing well and play a number of instruments,therefore they don't pay out much money to others.Depending on their speed of work,they can make a good living turning out only a few songs a week and giving good prices and service to their customers.Other studios may have to hire every instrument player and every singer,that cost has to be covered before the
studio owner makes a cent.This type of studio has to charge high rates or turn out a lot of songs to make a living.

I have found the real cheap demos did not give me what I wanted.I found the most expensive demos were good but not necessarily that much better than those in the mid range.Some of my best demos were around $125.00 to $175.00.The most important instrument on any demo is the vocals.That is what sells any song.Good music is necessary but doesn't have to be great,but the singer has to be suited for the song, feel the song,and deliver it like he/she believes what the song is saying.

Like most writers,I don't have a large budget for doing demos,the higher cost demos soon eats it up,so you can't get many songs demoed.I write a lot and try to do as many demos as I can afford,so I stay in the mid-price range.I write mostly country and country Gospel,which does not require a lot of music(but it must be good),but the vocals are very important.

Everett

[This message has been edited by ECA333 (edited 05-16-2006).]

Brian,

Thats' a great idea.

I have one suggestion for addition. You may find quite a few of our members produce their own demos at home, either with midi or audio tracks, then send tracks by mail or internet to other musicians so the original tracks can be replaced by a pro's tracks.

I'm soon going to be redoing my website and offering to add bass tracks, upright or electric, $50 a song, to people's demos via mail or internet. There's an article about this in a recent issue of Recording Magazine. It's already in full swing and will be the future of recording. So, in addition, you may end up partnering with individual recording musicians.

Great Stuff, Good Luck,
Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

Mike Dunbar is right about this. Drummers, especially, are in great demand to do this kind of thing.

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Later,

Pat

One of our drummer members, Peter Young, has been doing this for quite a while.

Had to edit 'cause I spelled it "druumer"

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 05-16-2006).]

This blog is more than just about making demos, but right now that is the most important thing to me because I am finally prepared to spend money for good demos and I am worried. I am already a preformer who can sing and play but I do not like the tedium of laying down tracks and after about 5 takes I just want to scream.

The nightmare outcome for me would be to pay someone $600 for a demo and it not being even as good as my own.

There is a talented fellow in my songwriters association who had a local production house do his "Album". After spending a couple of kilobucks that he couldn't afford, the "product" was a mess. The only thing good about it was his voice and his own guitar playing. It sounded like someone played base and piano on a $100 Casio keyboard. The electronic drums were just plain annoying. He would have been better off just recording his jam session at open mic, because all the personality was sucked out of his songs in the recording studio.

On the other hand, another friend used the services of a plumber (by trade). This fellow has a home studio and is a master at crafting my friend's talents into a "product" that is commercial. My friend recoreded his project over a period of months and paid as he went, averaging about $150 per song. Every single song could be played on the radio right now and no one would suspect it was done in a plumber's garage. The plumber had a "George Martin" sense of what to enhance and what to leave out.

The problem for someone like me is that I don't have a plumber willing to do that for me. The plumber just does it for friends. I guess I answered part of my own question here- network and make lots of friends 'cause that offers you the best possiblity for a good outcome.

This is a wise concept and I think many people had asked for this before. Now something is finally being done about it.

I've done internet recording before. It's a very efficient way to work. In fact, I've recently finished my first two recordings that have never been pressed to CD and are on their way to being sold at iTunes, having never been out of the computer. It's pretty exciting stuff.

I would be willing to offer my services, time permitting. I will e-mail you about it.

Jody

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Music That Makes Your Soul Happy!
www.jodywhitesides.com

Forgot to mention that internet recording was the way I did those guitar tracks for the Tiger Woods video game that I told you about a while back.

Jody

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Music That Makes Your Soul Happy!
www.jodywhitesides.com

Thanks for the feedback so far. There's an important thing for everyone to consider here that I think some might be missing. If we are going to partner with a company or perhaps a few companies to do a service (we'll use Demos for now since it's the first hot topic) we have to find a company that no only does great work, but can do it on a tight time schedule, can handle a LOT of business equally well (i.e. one guy doing it in his living room and taking a week per song is NOT going to work.. it's great that folks can do that for members, but unless they could handle 1-6 finished tracks a day if needed, we couldn't really endorse them across the entire organization. It would instantly be a disaster. So though I have nothing against the very very little guys, they would not be the right people to handle 40,000 artists. It would be like running a national TV Ad for a small mom and pop restaurant. If they couldn't handle the business and time requirements, it would fail no matter how honest or talented they were.

What I am hoping to do if set up a partnership with a company that could handle the quantity of our membership with the consistancy and quality that is standard across the full time pro studios. It's pointless to directly compete with a plumber doing it in his spare time 1 song or artist at a time. He couldn't take on 100 clients and make them all happy. It's not a stretch to think if we advertise this to 40K members, that 100 customers may come out of the woodwork to want something recorded. Do you guys see the reality of this?

The article in Mix Magazine included a segment on Sessionplayers.com and right now they're my first choice in partnering with for Demos on a large scale with top notch quality and a fair price. On the other end of the spectrum with high service and direct interaction I am considering Mark Keefner, who has demonstrated over and over that he's not only a pro, but has made all our members to date very happy and can handle projects as large as major label artists and has a history of major TV broadcast projects and working with some well known artists as well. We may have room for some additional studios and options as well, but so far I know those guys can handle mass numbers and extremely high end direct care extremely well depending on what someone needs. So far I have only had 2 people send me the needed info for comparision, but I suspect in both cases, those studios/individuals couldn't hand the volume or depth of quality that the two above could. But we'll see.

Brian

Brian,
Excellent concept & direction to develop something like a specialized JPF "Better Business Bureau meets the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval."

It appears like there could be a strong need and appreciation for a "rating system" that would be fair and easy to monitor. In my opinion, perhaps it could work best if more companies and services could be included that are providing the same type of service. This gives buyers more choices to "shop around" and compare features, benefits and pricing, etc. Also, it gives buyers more choices on locations, for example, helping them find services closer to their home town, etc.

Perhaps you could work out a simple rating system so that good companies & services could be rated on a scale of 1 to 5 stars, five being the best. They do this now for various online services such as general hosting services, software and online computer sales, etc.

If you give businesses an exclusivity, it's nice for them, but it would limit the buyer's choices (or knowledge of other options) and could also appear to be "biased" which creates a kind of monopoly rather than a "free market" (everyone's included) environment.

When I say "everyone's included", I mean all that are on the "white" list. Obviously there's always going to be services that are based on a scamming concept, so those will have to be weeded out and tossed on the "black list" pile.

From the start I admired your JPF philosophy of making all feel welcome and included within the general music community. It would be great if the same philosophy could be extended to all honest and capable service providers, as long as it's obvious that they are providing services that will benefit the average artist or band, etc.

One more thing. I've seen new services that are similar to the CD Baby retail store or digital distribution concept. Sure, they're not as "big" or "famous" because they are just starting, but what if they're doing a great job at a competitive price? What if they are being 100% honest and as hard working with their service is Derek is? Just because they're smaller (and all would be to start), does that mean they wouldn't be honored at JPF with an equal opportunity to serve the same indie market?

Regarding these questions, you would have to come up with an approach that either includes everyone fairly, or otherwise, it's "first come first serve" and the rest would be excluded. I'm sure there are pros & cons either way, but the question is what would provide the greatest benefit to the global music community in the long run?

Personally, I would vote for a "free market" solution and I'm sure you would too. But the challenge is in how to best implement that.

My hope is that JPF could build a model that would be at least as fair and open as the best of the "Better Business Bureau" services that exist today. Maybe you can check out their constitution and list of principals. It might give you a good "blueprint" (template) to go by.

By the way, your idea that these businesses then "share some of that extra business profit with JPF to help us do the work we've been doing" sounds feasible. The key will be to have a "flat fee" approach that all can afford, or otherwise, set up JPF as an affiliate so that JPF can earn a reasonable commission from all new referred customers.
This feature alone could develop some nice income for JPF to continue it's great work!

Cheers!
Michael

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The OUTLOOK may often appear bleak, but the UPLOOK is always bright!
Michael Borges
Praiseworthy Productions


[This message has been edited by Michael Borges (edited 05-16-2006).]

Michael,

There's a lot of problems with trying to be all things to all people. First of all, my concept is to find people we can truly stand behind and put our reputation behind. The wider that net is cast, the more likely someone untrustworthy or thoroughly vetted will sneak through. Once a few scam artists or simply incompetent companies slip through the entire thing crumbles.

There really no impact on free market with this either. We're neither stopping nor controlling who people use for their services. What we ARE doing is saying "here's an honest, quality, fairly priced option for this service from someone we trust" and then you can use that as a basis. Will other companies offer better deals? I am sure they will. Price is not a major factor on who we would partner with. Sure, we would require someone to be competitive, but probably would avoid simply finding the cheapest option. Sure, some companies still offer the best service/options for the lowest prices, CD Baby being a perfect example. But Companies like Disc Makers offer the most reliable and diverse and in my opinion the best complete service option of any company out there, but they will rarely be the cheapest. So if price alone is the only concern of someone, they will almost always find another option..but with that they'll take risks and be on their own to get them to deliver on time and in the quality they need. If we make the project too broad, it will be impossible.

On top of that, I've sent business to companies for 8 years in gigantic numbers. In every case except the people mentioned above, we've never gotten anything in return. We've also never charged members. But with our growth, the music awards will be literally impossible to do again without significantly more income coming into JPF. We've done tons of studies and carefully watched others fail who tried to convert to membership fees or who charged for their awards and flopped. (In a similar case, a company (a well known and respected one at that) doing a music awards tried to partner with CD Baby in the same way we partner but had a fee attached. The offer was sent to 130,000 CD Baby artists and only 400 were interested. Our awards were offered to 45,000 (people who had joined only in the previous time period) and 23,000 wanted to participate. That's a night and day difference.. meaning charging to enter the awards isn't going to work and frankly is not something we wanted to do anyway. On top of that, the cost to CD Baby to do our awards with us is gigantic. We're talking SERIOUS money they spend to pull those CD's and ship them alphabetically to us. Without that process, we couldn't possibly deal with the quantity of music we got, but without the quantity, the process would be far less meaningful and the diversity would suffer a great deal. That means less positive attention to indie music and less quality among the categories we could retain meaning industry and media care far less. So no fee is going to happen for the awards. So, no member fee, no awards fee.. we need money.

These partnerships might cover at least part of that needed income. But if we deal with a large number, none of the partners are very happy, we can't possibly monitor the business we might be sending (I've been screwed before by people who said they'd share income but never did because we couldn't prove where it came from) and so on. So we need 1 or 2 key featured partners to work with. If someone doesn't like our partners, no one is forcing them to work with us. On the other hand, if a partner does well with us, it's all the more motivation to keep us and our members happy and thus we can have even more influence on how they do business, what their pricing is and how they resolve problems. Remember, even 100% honest companies get complaints and often customers are in the wrong and are unreasonable. Tight partnerships can deal with that type of thing. A bunch of lose partnerships would turn quickly into chaos.

Plus, little guys often can't handle the quantity of business. BUT.. we've proven over and over that we're happy to work with a little guy if they are honest and doing a great job. I've never seen any of these new digital sites that are even in the ballpark of CD Baby. Sure many PROMISE to be.. but none have delivered yet. And no one is stopping anyone from using them instead of CD Baby. There's no exclusivity. There's only our ability to offer our members a trusted option with fair pricing and service for their money.

The free market is also responsible for creating a rich fishing ground for scam artists. Part of the free market is affiliations and alliances with compatible partners. We're simply interested in created a free market way for companies to be vetted, to get additional business referrals and if both parties are happy, a share in the profit so we can continue to do all this free work. Sounds fair and honest to me. And I prefer that over a forced member fee, a forced entry fee for the awards, fees to play at showcases or go to chapter events and so on. If it's all voluntary and we put the scam artists out of business, everyone wins.

Brian

[This message has been edited by Brian Austin Whitney (edited 05-16-2006).]

Hi Brian,

As you know, I've recently begun work for Sessionplayers.com and we really are a good choice for demo services. The players on the roster are the best in the business. Plus we've recently added pre-formed full rhythm sections to the list of booking options to make it easier to get a great sound at a price to fit the client's budget.

Glad you liked the MIX magazine write up. Thanks for the confidence.

Christine

Brian,
That sounds great! I figured you would be leaning towards fewer "sponsors", and the way you present it, it's cool and makes good sense! In this case, "less is more"!

I'm glad you invested the time to "spell out" your philosophy and approach. I've heard bits & pieces of it many times around these boards, but now it's in one place (your blog!) that everyone can refer to.

My hats off to you for doing such a great job with organizing this new (expanded) part of your JPF venture. I've always supported the direction your going & I'm sure it will be of great benefit to all JPF members, friends & community service providers, etc.

By the way, I know all the SCAM artists will really enjoy all the free "advertising" they'll be getting around here!

Best regards,
Michael



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The OUTLOOK may often appear bleak, but the UPLOOK is always bright!
Michael Borges
Praiseworthy Productions

[This message has been edited by Michael Borges (edited 05-17-2006).]

Hi Brian & Gang

I think this is a wonderful idea on all the services mentioned on the list above. I thought I would chime in here being as I write record & produce & play music fulltime. Also considering I do a whole a bunch of demos for the people here at JPF. I am very grateful for this and would like to thank you Brian.. All the others know how I feel as many members here email everday asking questions and thanking me for some advice I had given or for all kinds of related things. And lots of you who I speak with over the phone (You should see my phone bill)
We laugh and talk about about all aspects of music/music business and whatever. There are alot of wonderful people here It's amazing. I care very much and flip out when I feel they are getting ripped off.

As for Demo Services and business...

I hope to still be considered as an Idependent Service Provider here in the future.

We do need a large scale services for demo's of course.
I certainly cant handle 6 sessions a day
I would however like to continue to offer services and have the chance to in a friendly way compete with the big guys..
You would think like I would to, that the little guy can't compete but it's really the other way around.

Why My Demo Service cant be beat lol... just for fun Bri..
Yeah I get to make a list! I'll post it tomorrow it's 6:45 am
think I'll sleep some now..

Peace & Thanks

Hey that big room at the studios are occupied by the big clients. Your demo is getting done in a room as small as yours, believe me!

I went visiting around & As far as depth of quality goes
Click My song below and hear what a good living room sounds like I'll play this against anyone anywhere.

All live instruments no samples- Go ahead Try to sit still!

"What U Betta Do" ©
http://tinyurl.com/g7ppp

Thanks again Guys & especially Brian

[This message has been edited by substudio (edited 05-17-2006).]

Sub,

First of all I don't consider you a plumber doing it in your spare time. As for "little guy" versus "big guy" it's also important to point out that the 2 companies we suggested above are run by a single and active JPF member as well. Joey Finger, the founder of Session Players, is a well respected session player himself who performed at our last awards show with several other well known and respected session players to back up nominee St. Paul. Since that time, we've gotten to know each other and regularly chat for hours at a time about a wide variety of issues that affect both his company and JPF. In addition, because I believe in what he's doing and the integrity in which he's doing it, I even hooked up our former NYC Coordinator (now SEMA coordinator) Christine Mascott to go work for him because I trusted he'd treat her well and I knew she'd do a great job for him. He's been totally open at every stage to our suggestions, and even restructured his main focus (which is to offer some of the most amazing (and often world famous) session players to play on anyone's project to also offer a far more affordable set of services for songwriters who simply need a quality demo at a fair price and with outstanding quality. I've probably spent more time talking with Joe over the last year than anyone else not directly on the JPF staff or community partner list. It's part of the process I usually undertake before we add someone as a community partner. I want to know them personally, beyond just business, so that I can vouch for them as people just as much as a business. It's been clear to me that Joey is the real deal and so he's an obvious choice to partner with on every level. He can handle volume. He can offer quality service. He can give equal service to the big or little guys. He's flexible and fair. He won't likely ever be the cheapest (and in fact, I've already told him to raise the price of his basic demo because with the quality of performers he's using, it was too low and he was basically giving it away. As someone who knows a LOT about giving quality work away, I want him to be around and to continue to grow so that there's always a large scale honest company out there for our members to use. And frankly, his main business model of having world class superstar musicians who are happy to play on your CD (for a significant fee of course)is both exciting and amazing. Back when I was actively recording stuff, I would have LOVED to have been able to hire some of these folks for the projects I was working on. (If you haven't seen the world class list, that keeps growing, check it out on Sessionplayers.com, you'll be amazed!).

So that's why Session Players is one of the resources I am considering. In addition, I know as Joey's site grows, he wants to give back to JPF in a similar way that TAXI and DIsc Makers and CD Baby currently do. Right now he's still a little guy and can't do it. But early on the companies above couldn't do it either. But we formed long term relationships and now they're what keep us going and keep the awards possible.

The other name I suggested is even more directly involved with JPF and is also a "little" guy in the scheme of things. Mark Keefner has been a JPF mentor since 1999 and has hosted meetings, spoken to chapter meetings, worked with a wide variety of members on various projects and has also offered me info and advice (and vice versa) over the years. We've even discussed a lot of potential projects (like creating a JPF licensing site to place award winning music into films and TV shows that Mark works with). That's a giant project that will take some time to put together, but while that is being discussed, he's offered a different type of production service and recording package than what Session Players typically does. It's a very hands on, service intense production and development thing focused more on artists than songwriter demos. He's already worked with quite a few JPF members who have all been happy to date and is working with 2 currently as we speak. Since he's worked with major artists and on quite a few major TV broadcasts and movies, I know he can produce top level stuff. He's also not the cheapest, but he's offering a very different set of services than a demo house. I position what he does sort of in the middle of the 2 focuses of Session Players. (i.e. the basic high quality songwriter demos and the top end world famous session players for artist releases).

Both guys I consider very active and involved JPF members. To me, that's very important, just as it is with Sub. He's done a great job making members happy. Though he hasn't "partnered" with us (i.e. we're obviously not getting a cut of the profits) he's also not charging much money. He IS (as he's obviously noticed) getting a lot of business from our site though. My goal is to simply find partners who are willing to share some of the gain and benefit they get from the work I have done back with our group so we'll still be around to generate more business for them, and offer more support and services for all our members. In the cases of both Joe and Mark, they've been involved and offered support long before we've ever sent them a single customer. In the case of Sub, he's put his work right out in the open for scrutiny and has had universally great feedback and has also chipped in with feedback etc. That's the kind of people we want to work with. I've gotten some "endorsements" from members of other outside studios, but the big difference (beyond the fact I haven't heard of them) is that they've never reached out to JPF as an org. or shown they wanted to be actively involved previously, before there's a big carrot on a stick hanging out there for them. Though I am not saying I wouldn't consider the right "new" partner, I have to say they'd need to do a lot for me to refer business to them over the folks who are actively involved here AND who have demonstrated they can make our members happy with quality service and support.

So that's my viewpoint so far on all of this. I've still gotten very few responses about Demo places and even fewer who have supplied the info we asked for. But I do want to thank those who have given us what we need. Once I have a collection of examples, we'll post our findings here.

Brian

Hi,

Brian- Thanks for the kind words and for knowing that my intentions are pure. There are alot of things the members should know about any studio doing work. Even if they are great and on the up & up and endorsed. They need to understand that the Big names and the big rooms usually aren't being used on the inexpensive demos. Like I said I cant do 6-10 sessions a day and neither can any other one person. The work gets distributed too many others. Now there can be special packages made from programming and samples, mixed with vocals etc.. to accomodate the many many people who can't afford the regular rates. that's cool to.
I know the facilities Brian has faith in are both great & on the side of Brian & this forum. Even going to studios can be very confusing to folks. Be sure you understand the services That stuff will all work itself out.

This is already the best forum on the internet and now it's gonna get better.
With luck & hard work more good people, and people who can really help us will be here..

I just wanted you to know One who cares already is

BIG THANKS Brian & The JPF
Hope we can meet someday over great pizza.

Peace
Sub

Soundclick
http://www.soundclick.com/mikecaro

Substudio
http://tinyurl.com/73uev

Play Drums!
SubStudio Drum Set
http://tinyurl.com/7stqj




[This message has been edited by substudio (edited 05-20-2006).]