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#389806 - 11/15/03 11:44 PM One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
I love suspended chords.

In C, the sus 2 is C D G and the sus 4 is C F G.

In G the sus 4 is G C D (same as the sus 2 in C)

In F the sus 2 is F G C (same as the sus 4 in C)

I wonder why this isn't used more often? Usually a sus 4 resolves to a major or minor as in "Cold as Ice" or "Pinball Wizard."

I've been playing around with grooving from a C sus 4 to a C to an F to an F sus 2.

Also I've been playing an arpeggio of what I call a Sus 2/4: C D F G.

This is what I do on my day off [Linked Image]

Mike

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389807 - 11/16/03 07:59 AM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Bob Young (D)  Offline
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Now...

In my world if we add a D that C chord we call it an Add2...cos'...that's what you're doing..

If there is a B flat present as well..then it becomes a 9th...

The other chord you mentioned..the 2 plus 4...well...the F and D added to the C chord make it (for all practical purposed) an
11th.
The B flat is not present to complete the 11th but most guitar chords are fractured anyway...

Just semantics , I guess

Bob

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 11-16-2003).]

#389808 - 11/16/03 07:05 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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Nashville Tennessee
My only problem is understanding how adding a D to a C chord is an "Add3"...I can understand an "Add9", but when it is taking the place of the three, it sure looks like a Sus2 to me. As for the nines, elevens and thirteens, yeah they are that, but the lack of the third always makes me think "sus." Other than that, you can call them Freddy and Arthur and Gladys if you make 'em sound good.

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389809 - 11/16/03 08:55 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Bob Young (D)  Offline
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Well....it's an add 3 when I don't check my typing !

Add 2 when I correct it..

Duh

It's not an add 9 cos' technically a 9 can't exist without the flat 7..
In strict musical terms the chords have to have all previous altered elemnts..

Hence..and add 2 is a C chord(for example) with a D added...to make it a 9th you have to add the B flat and the D...
An eleventh is the B flat and the D and the F added etc
The only "suspended" chord I grew up with was the added 4th...
Achord with the flat 7 is a "dominant" chord The add 2 is a chord rarely seen before the last 20 years and is usually a "tonic" chord like the 6/9 chord.
I suppose, using the logic I've stated, it would be proper to call it a 6/2, but like I say, when I was growing up the added 2 was not commonplace.
I can remember seeing add 9 more than once.
Requiring the 3d to create a triad before calling a chord by an altered name does not happen alot in the world of abbreviated or comped chords..
Many times jazzers will cluster the altered notes of a chord and leave out all elements of the triad for voicing purposes

At least that's the way Herb Ellis explained it to me a very long time ago in the pit at the Steve Allen playhouse.

But...he could have been wrong...

bob

#389810 - 11/16/03 09:28 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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Herb, I'm sure, was right.

I do remember, however, the suspended second from my music theory days at Chicago State University. When the third is replaced by either the four or the two, the major or minor sound is "suspended". The garden variety is the Sus4, so when a chord is simply called "suspended" it is assumed that it is a Sus4.

I've heard add two, or an add nine, or an add eleven, or thirteen, used when that note is added to a complete major or minor triad. It seems to me, that if you had a major chord with a flatted seventh and a ninth, that this would be a "ninth" chord rather than an "add nine."

I read a great interview with Steely Dan where they referred to a specific spelling of the added ninth ( root five nine three ) as a "mu" chord. I know some Nashville players that are so country they play "moo" chords.

I think of the Sus2 as the "Edmund Fitzgerald" chord and the Sus4 as the "Pinball Wizard" chord.

Anyway, I'm going back to the keyboard to figure out the demolished sixth, the double flatted octave, and the sustained chord.

Mike

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389811 - 11/16/03 11:25 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Bob Young (D)  Offline
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Herb used to call severely altered chords "Chinese chords"...flat 5 aug 9...etc.

He was a "working" guitar player and believed that what sounded right WAS right.

Jack Marshall was another studio guy that was around Hollywood when I was taking lessons from Herb.
He was much more technical than Herb...
Herb was all ears and practical knowledge..
I didn't realize it so much then, but I do now.
You know..we were very poor and probably half the time I didn't pay for those lessons.
There were a couple of us taking lessons from Herb...I think he just liked having us around..

He was a good guy...
Alcohol has made him a very sick man in his old age.

What a great musician

Bob

#389812 - 11/17/03 12:24 AM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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Nashville Tennessee
A few weeks ago I worked on a session for a young lady. One of the songs was "Someone To Watch Over Me." The version she learned had all those "Chinese" (as Mr. Ellis would have called them) chords--flat fives, flat nines, and so on. The orchestration for the version she learned was lush. We were doing a stripped down cut, the altered chords sounded too strange, but she had learned a melody that sometimes used these strange chromatic moves. We actually ended up with a pretty nice version of it, but the bridge went to Disneyland.

Once she releases the cd, I'll get her to post it somewhere so you can hear it.

On and on and on, eh?

Mike

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389813 - 11/17/03 01:26 AM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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You know, Mike...

When I was a kid, I was always happy to get around a couple of well-traveled old ducks (like you and me) and learn some good practical stuff.

It's sad that so many of these threads turn out to be you and me chatting about the old days.

There's alot I'd love to share with kids... the way alot of old geezers shared things with me.

Too bad...they just don't seem interested.

Bob

When I look back, I see alot of jazz guys that I knew and learned from...the frunny thing about that is that I don't consider myself a jazz musician..at all...not even a little bit.
I just love having all the information..
I loved learning it too....

funny.......

#389814 - 11/17/03 12:20 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


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Nashville Tennessee
Bob,

I was raised by my mother's uncle, a man who was born in 1880. I guess this is why my friends have always been older than me. (some, much older, like yourself) I think, however, we are the exception rather than the norm.

Since the development of the public educational system, children have been lumped together with their peers. A lot of their development has taken place without exposure to people of different ages. Add to that our society's media pandering to the young, and you have both cause and reinforcement of the so called "youth culture." (I feel sorry for these kids when they find out that this has been engineered by old folks to: a. get the yougsters out of their hair, and b. to sell to them.)

All in all, however, the veneration of the older, wiser members of our world is, sadly, the exception that proves the rule.

Mike

P.S. of course, it's possible it has nothing to do with age, and that you and I are the only two members here who understand music theory? (maybe that'll get 'em posting)



------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389815 - 11/17/03 02:23 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Bob Young (D)  Offline
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Strangely..

I think alot of the kids "know" the stuff....
They just aren't as fascinated by it as some of us are...
It's really exciting to hear something and know why it sounds the way it does..for me anyway...

I hear and see kids posting and talking about modal concepts and pentatonic this and tetrachord that.....
But it's just alot of jargon...
They don't seem caught up in working the magic...
They learn how the tricks work..and then never do them...

I'm probably just an old fart spouting off again....
Better go get some oatmeal...

Here's the link to my take on Christmas in Chicago..

bob

http://www.soundclick.com/util/streamM3U.m3u?ID=695629&q=Lo (lo-fi)

http://www.soundclick.com/util/streamM3U.m3u?ID=695629&q=Hi (hi-fi)

Happy Thanksgiving

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 11-17-2003).]

#389816 - 11/17/03 06:34 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Graham Henderson (D) Offline
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hey you old fellas. I'm in here reading away so don't feel alone Cobbers.
Just been too busy to get in a lot of late, but this is my favourite learning spot.
Mike. I make that cdfg thing a G7sus4.
Graham


------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

#389817 - 11/17/03 09:10 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Bob Young (D)  Offline
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That's right cobber...play a g in the bass and it is indeed !

Bob

#389818 - 11/17/03 09:55 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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Nashville Tennessee
Three old farts, eh? Yeah, it sounds cool with the C bass, try it like that with an arpeggio, it has a "new agey" feel to it.

The G7suspended is one of my favorite chords. A friend of mine says it is "fraught with destiny"

Any one want to join us in the geriatric ward?

Mike

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389819 - 11/17/03 10:01 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


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Nashville Tennessee
By the way, bob, I know what you mean about feeling sorry for the youngsters. I remember sitting in front of the tape recorder for hours working out the chords to "Bluesette", now you can find them in seconds with a decent search engine.

When I reached my fortieth birthday, my wife asked me, "What's the best part about reaching forty?" I answered, "I really understand music now." She asked, "What's the worst part about reaching forty?" I answered, "I really understand music now."

Mike

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389820 - 11/17/03 10:10 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Bob Young (D)  Offline
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There was something magical about rock and roll when it was "dangerous"

I had to listen to it in bed with my mother's radio under the sheets with the volume way down.

My father would not allow that "****** " music in the house.

Young people are unlucky in that today, everything is allowed.
Parents are so bent on being "cool" and pals to the kids that nothing is verboten
No magic....

Sad....

But...that's the way of the world...

graham is old enough to remember the emergence of the music....wonder if it was the same deal in Australia ?

Sometimes it's good to be...well....mature.

Maybe we should start a board at JPF called "Ask the seniors"

Bob

all right...how about "negro" music...?
Jeeez

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 11-17-2003).]

#389821 - 11/18/03 12:41 AM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Graham Henderson (D) Offline
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Way I figure chord names is, no matter how you shuffle the notes around, each set of notes has onloy one name, and the fact they give a differant sound/feel one way as to another has no bearing on what their name is.
A chord made up of 1 4 and 5 in any shape or form ewill always be a suspended chord to me.
A 1 4 5 flat7 will always be a seven suspended C7sus= CFGBb.
Yeah I remember when it all happened, and yeah, it was similar with some parents not allowing kids to play "that god awful racket" as they called it.
Not many though.
I was artistic director for a band called The Thunderbirds back in the 50's.
Not The Fabulous Thunderbitrds. The Original Thunderbirds.
And my title refered to the artistc way I had of directing drunks and punch up artists out of the hall while working as their bouncer.
They call them croud control or security these days.
All The Thunderbirds ended up making a living in music all their lives.
I bounced doors off and on until I was 50 when I decided I wsa slowing up a bit and quit.
Watching the AMAs today wsa a bit sad as there wasn't a lot on offer.
Was a nice bit of nostalgia to see Fleetwood mac again.
Metalicca wasn't all that inspiring. Just older. Well some of them.
Bright spot was the first timer Indy band The Bomb Squad. They probably know their chords and scales pretty good.
I'll see if I can chat them into coming in for a visit to get the gae average down some.
Think Kid Rock could do with a name change. Kid Sux sounds about right.
Seemed to me Pamela Anderson is addicted to having fake boobs around her all the time.
Graham




------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

#389822 - 11/18/03 02:06 AM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Not exactly true..Cobber....

C F G Bflat is also Bflatminor 9

You could also use it as a G minor 11th

Remember, in terms of usage, all the elements of a chord need not be present to establish the chords integrity.

You're using numbers makes the chord names correct, because they are based on positions in the scale, not notes.
When you name the notes, then you get into voicings of a variety of chords.

G6 and E minor 7th are precisely the same notes
Gmajor 7 and E minor 9...same notes..(well...almost on this one..no E in the G major 7..but...what the hell)

Tricky....I love it !

Bob

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 11-18-2003).]

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 11-18-2003).]

#389823 - 11/18/03 02:51 AM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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San Antonio, TX USA
To my wizend elders....

Just kidding.

I've taken to theory like a duck to algebra. As I follow this thread and realize how little I know, I realize how much I have to learn. Sometimes it's overwhelming. I guess I'm just lazy. I learned to play by ear, now I want to learn why those note and chord choices work. Just the little I've learned so far has been a huge help when jamming and having to figure out what to play.

Regarding the internet, I can find the tab to any radio or pop hit in five minutes. I can download the mp3 and have the song down more or less in less than an hour. Sadly, it doesn't take a lot of skill to play a lot of this stuff and I guess it just makes some of us even lazier. You can know a hundred songs and yet not know a damn thing about music.

Regarding wisdom from elders, We knew this old retired jazzer who, because of his disability was no longer able to play out. He was always happy to see us and I learned a lot from him. He'd never tell you what he was playing. He'd just smile and hit those chords until you found him. He'd played with all these famous jazz cats and here I show up with the notes taped to my fret board and he'd always find time for us. God bless him.

Don't stop teaching, cajoling, or in your case Bob, teasing. I think more of us are grateful for your presence and posts than show it.

Just one whippersnappers opinion.

#389824 - 11/18/03 03:03 AM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Bob Young (D)  Offline
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chicago il usa
That's real nice of you to say that Cozmic...
Thanks...

I knew a piano player that was like that old jazzer you describe.
He'd always invite us kids to sit in with him, then he'd never tell us what key he was in or what the changes were he was playing...
He'd just kind of look at us and wait for us to catch up.
That's agood way to learn....
And, he used to sneak us drinks !

If you ever have specific questions..just ask...I think I can speak for Mike and Graham as well as myself when I say we'd love to help.

Gotta pass the torch to somebody...Hell my kids are about as musical as the friggin' doorbell !

Thanks again young man !

Bob

#389825 - 11/18/03 07:03 AM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Graham Henderson (D) Offline
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Esperance. West Australia
Bummer. Just when I thought i could stop thinking, I find out I haven't yet started to.
I think.
Thanks Cobber.
In think.
Back to the books.
G'day Cozzie.
I did exactly the same, sitting nights watching an old retired saddler making hand sewn saddles.
I never got to be a real saddler but for the next fifty years I have made repaired and designed just about every bit of harness you can think of.
And a lot of other leather stuff too.
The old pharts can be quite useful from time to time.
Now I am sucking these two young blokes brains trying to learn some music stuff too so when I get old I can sit around strumming and maybe look like I know what I am doing.
Regards.
Graham


------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

#389826 - 11/18/03 10:59 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Corky Bernard (D) Offline
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Just because we don't always comment, doesn't mean that we don't read the threads and hold you ancient masters in the highest realm of awe.

Jeez, you got your own secret language and everything. I do not pretend to understand it, but I am so very grateful that you do.

dawg


Wisdom does not always accompany age. Sometimes
age just shows up alone.
#389827 - 11/19/03 08:54 AM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Jean Bullock Offline
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Anaheim, CA, USA
I would like to add to the assurance that lack of comments do not mean people are not reading this. It would be nice if people would leave a little note saying they are reading it. I frequently read even when I have nothing to add to it. If for some reason I need visuals to enhance my understanding of the discussion, I google the topic and find them. I have learned a lot from this forum. I also enjoy the interchange between you guys. So please don't stop discussing things like this. Even if I don't have time to read everything, I like knowing that it's here when I have the time or when the need to know occurs. Keep up the good work!

JeanB


Please visit my facebook EZ3D PopUps for free papercraft templates. Great for beginners of all ages.

Favorite Sites:
http://facebook.com/EZ3DPopUps
http://ez3dpopups.blogspot.com/
http://harrietschock.com
http://jpfolks.com
http://phillipmartin.com


#389828 - 11/19/03 10:37 AM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Jean, Dawg, and Cozmicslop,

It's nice to know you're out there. I hope you, and others, are getting something from this.

I still find music theory to be fascinating. Even when I'm not teaching it, I think about it. Often, while driving, I'll turn off the radio so I can analyze something I've just heard.

I started, like so many do, learning to play the guitar "by ear." For a while, I believed, like some do, that studying "written music" would hurt my playing...what a crock! (The famous quote about that, attributed to Louis Armstrong, is terribly misunderstood. He was referring to the improvisational aspect of his music.)
After becoming a performing musician, I never really thought I'd use much more of the theory I'd learned in college, then I moved to Nashville and started reading the numbers at the sessions. Expressing music numerically made me think of the similarities, rather than the differences, of each key. Numbers, for me, was like using a capo in my mind (I believe it was the working knowledge of the capo that made me a staight "A" student of music theory in a class where I was the only freshman who didn't already read musical notation.)

To make a long story only slightly longer, I'm blessed to be able discuss these things with the likes of bob and Graham. I hope, and I'm sure they agree, that our rambling ruminations will help a few JPFers in their musical journey.

All the Best,
Mike

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389829 - 11/19/03 11:37 AM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Bob Young (D)  Offline
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chicago il usa
Omigod....

The "Rambling Ruminations"....

I haven't had those since I was a kid.....

Too many green apples....

Now THERE'S an unpleasant memory !

Bob (still shuddering) Young

#389830 - 11/19/03 01:22 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


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Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
By the way, while having a beer in Amsterdam, I listened to a version of Tony Joe White singing "Little Green Apples", which I haven't been able to find on cd (no, I won't illegally download it if any of you find it like that.) It was one of the most soulful performances of any song that I've ever heard.

Mike

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389831 - 11/19/03 01:51 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Bob Young (D)  Offline
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chicago il usa
- Artist: Bobby Russell
- peak Billboard position # 36 in 1968
- Words and Music by Bobby Russell*

He's the 1432 Franklin Pike Circle Hero
'n' you can see him ev'ry weekend with a carfull of kids and snow cones
And the people 'cross town don't know his name
But on Franklin Pike Circle he's king
1432 Franklin Pike Circle Hero

Well, at five thirty-five at the corner of Franklin and Walnut
A blue station wagon comes slidin' around the corner
And on down Franklin Pike Circle all you're seein' is a streak of blue
And pulls in the drive at the address of 1432

And he says "My head aches and my back hurts and I don't feel like talkin'"
"Don't wan' go the show to see Doctor Zhivago"
"Don't wanna take the dog out walkin'"
"I wanna sit right here in this easy chair, it's been a jungle all day, you know"
The 1432 Franklin Pike Circle Hero is home

He was out pitching ball with the kids in the neighborhood yesterday
And the ole major-leaguer had to quit 'cause he said he threw his arm away
And the kids all hid behind the hedge and laughed at him but wouldn't let it show
Because they love him so,
He's the 1432 Franklin Pike Circle Hero

He's the 1432 Franklin Pike Circle Hero
'n' you can see him ev'ry weekend with a carfull of kids and snow cones
An', ya know, people 'cross town don't know his name
But on Franklin Pike Circle he's king
1432 Franklin Pike Circle Hero

Well , he won a little pony at the Hill High auction just the other day
And he di'n't mean to do it and he wanted to give the pony away
a-When they called out his name he tried not to claim it
But the kids started cryin' 'cause they'd already named it
And who's up ev'ry Saturday morning?
Saddling his new toy? You guessed it-
The 1432 Franklin Pike Circle Cowboy

He's the 1432 Franklin Pike Circle Hero
'n' you can see him ev'ry weekend with a carfull of kids and snow cones
Durin' Christmas took the kids down to see the floats
When he wanted t'stay home and watch the Baltimore Colts
1432 Franklin Pike Circle Hero

Well the ten-thirty news usually finds our hero is a sleepy head
And Peter's out somewhere wreckin' the car
And the rest 'the kids have gone to bed
So she takes his hand, they climb the stairs and he falls asleep
And she bends over him so tenderly to kiss his cheek
'cause she loves him so, and she's lucky, you know?
To be married to the 1432,
1432 Franklin Pike Circle Hero

He's the 1432 Franklin Pike Circle Hero
'n' you can see him ev'ry weekend with a carfull of kids and snow cones

FADE
Christmas time he took 'em down to see the floats
When he wanted t'stay home and watch the Baltimore Colts
1432 Franklin Pike Circle Hero

*Transcriber's NOTE: Russell also wrote "Honey", "The Night the Lights Went Out
in Georgia", and "Little Green Apples."

Transcribed by Robin Hood


What a talented guy......
1432 is one of my favorite songs...came out in the late 60's I think...one of the few of Bobbys that got airplay with him singing it !

I never heard the Tony Joe White Little Green Apples...I can hear it in my head tho....
I'm sure it was stellar

Bob

#389832 - 11/19/03 02:26 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

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Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Wow, I always thought bass player Joe Allen wrote 1452 Franklin etc. I also thought Roger Miller wrote Litte Green Apples. You live and you learn.

Mike

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389833 - 11/19/03 03:27 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Bob Young (D)  Offline
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chicago il usa
Mike..

Roger had a cut of "Green Apples" that got alot of play...

But no...those are both Bobby Russell songs

Ya' live and learn !

Except for me....I'm fortunate enough to know it ALL !

bob

#389834 - 11/19/03 09:43 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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OK...so adding a second string D to a C major is either Csus2 or C add 9, right? I have always called it an add9 because I think calling it a sus2 implies the absence of the 3rd. But this particular chord, which I lovingly call the singer-songwriter C, (because EVERY singer at EVERY open mic playing in the key of G uses it in place of C nowadays) does have the 3rd in the lower octave. So, I like Cadd9.

I have seen it called G/C on numbers charts, but I don't think that is really accurate. A G/C would have a B in it and is a different, though similar, chord (Cmaj9, I think).

When we were kids, we used to call the sus chords "Byrds" chords, because of the way McGuinn used them on "Feel a Whole Lot Better" and "Turn, Turn, Turn" and others. When we wanted another player to use it in a song we'd say, "play a D, and Byrdsiate it."

[This message has been edited by TrumanCoyote (edited 11-19-2003).]

#389835 - 11/20/03 12:15 AM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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Nashville Tennessee
Truman,

It ain't a "sus" if it's got a third. The two or the four takes the place of the third, that's why they are then called a two or four. If there's a third, you call them an add nine and an add eleven unless there's a flat seven present, then they're a nine and a seven add eleven (or for most guitar players, just an eleven [ a true eleven has root third fifth flat seventh ninth and eleven, but guitarists, having only six strings, tolerate leaving a few out here and there.])

The Byrds chord, eh? We used to call a G C D a "God" chord. (thank you God for a sense of humor, no lightning bolts please.)

We called that Cadd9, an "Eagles" chord. I've also heard it called a Nashville C.

All the Best,
Mike

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music

[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 11-19-2003).]


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389836 - 11/20/03 12:46 AM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
Joined: Aug 2001
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Larry Williams Offline
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Santa Clarita, CA USA
When I was a-studyin' music back when Bach was still alive....(just kidding)...

I remember learning that sus is a suspension and actually comes from suspending the melody note a half-step above the rest of the orchestra or parts (or it's expected location in the scale). The 5th could even be suspended to a flat 6th melodically. The sus always resolves DOWN - at least that's how it was taught to me.

Therefore, sus chords always refer to a replacement of a note: sus2 replaces the root of the chord; sus4 replaces the third. "add" chords just add whatever note you indicate: add2, add9 (same thing), add6, etc. The sus2 gets a little ambiguous when you play the "singer/songwriter" C chord with the "D" on the 2nd string as you still have a "C" in the bass. I prefer calling it Cadd9.

But one thing I always teach my students is that except for some mathematically or algorithmically created music, music theory ALWAYS comes after the fact of the sounds being played somewhere and it's just someone's attempt to codify or understand music so it can be passed on to others.

No one thought up a Cmaj7 chord and then said "I wonder what this would sound like?". No they played the darn thing (maybe even by accident) and thought it sounded good - then figured out a way to communicate what they did to others - in a sometimes imperfect way.


------------------
Larry
www.audibleresponse.com


[This message has been edited by Lwilliam (edited 11-19-2003).]

#389837 - 11/20/03 01:23 AM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Larry,

Exactly! In music theory of the Western culture, the suspension, an appogiatura tied over from the preceding chord, is a note that resolves stepwise to a missing chordal (read triadic) tone. Traditionally these suspended notes are considered to be "non-harmonic." The modern ear, however, is content to hear James Brown's band play a ninth for three minutes, and the contemporary musician learns a repertoire of chords for accompaniment.

These chords have been largely named from the late nineteenth to the early mid twentient century, many of them from the jazz idiom. Those names sometimes have corrupted or ambiguous meanings, (e.g. the "diminished" chord most people know is really a fully diminished seventh.) That's the story with the suspended chord (not the suspension, but the suspended chord) as I understand it. It is a chord (or more accurately, a "tone cluster") that occurs during a common suspension, however it is named so without expectation of resolution, giving us a name for the non-harmonic tone clusters, so often used in pop music, that "suspend" the feel of major or minor by replacing the third with a fourth.

In the country and folk idiom within the past thirty years, there has been a chord that has come into favor that is spelled root, second, fifth. This is what I call the "Edmund Fitzgerald" chord. I've found it useful and sensible to borrow the name "sus2" for this chord (which, though I'd love to take credit, is a name I've heard used by others.) Many call it an add nine, but it specifically avoids the third as does the "sus4". In practice, the traditional sus2...235, is rarely played without resolution to a major triad, except as an arpeggio. This other "125" chord has a "static" feel to it.


But, call 'em Ethel or George, I love 'em.

All the Best,
Mike


------------------
Mike Dunbar Music

[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 11-19-2003).]


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389838 - 11/21/03 03:07 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
Joined: Sep 2003
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John Scott Offline
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John Scott  Offline
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Posts: 273
Nashville, Tennessee
Hey guys!! I'm reading along too. Unfortunately I read most of this at work when I get a chance. I'm kind of an old codger myself and most of this stuff is way over my head. Yet I find it extremely interesting. I'm a gonna have to sit down and read these threads one day with guitar in hand and keyboard next to me. [Linked Image]

I started out as a music major in college for about a year. I had one theory class. I now wish I would have had fewer beers and paid attention more. I pretty much failed most of the theory course (I didn't do any of the work) but I aced the interval/ear trainging which was half the grade, so I ended up with a C [Linked Image].

Perhaps when some of the financial and time burdens that come along with having a youngster (3 year old) diminish, I may go back to school and really learn some this stuff. I really am interested in it. Meanwhile...Keep it up guys!!! I like reading this stuff. It puts some names & logic on some of the "different" chords I use that just sound good to me.

Mike One short term goal I have is cry get better at the guitar. I am 100% self taught at this point and I'm sure I have all kinds of bad habits. I would like to start taking lessons some time in the near future. I'm sure there are all kinds of good instructors around Nashville. I actually live in Franklin. Do you have any recommendations on some good ones? I would like to get as good as my short stubby fingers will allow [Linked Image]. If you get a chance and don't want to post any names here, feel free to email me. The link on the post should work.

Thanks in advance

And thanks to both Mike and Bob for these interesting discussions. [Linked Image]

------------------
John

http://www.nowhereradio.com/johnscott/singles

#389839 - 11/21/03 06:32 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
Joined: Apr 2001
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Hey John,

JPF member Gary Talley, a great session player who used to be with the Box Tops, does a lot of teaching. You can, I'm sure, reach him with a quick net search.

I teach myself. I'm not a great guitarist like Gary, but I'm not a half bad teacher.

All the Best,
Mike

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389840 - 11/23/03 04:27 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
Joined: Feb 2003
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ed323 Offline
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ed323  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 297
Yuma AZ USA
Bob, just so that readers/students don't get confused, you might edit to say that a

C F G Bb = Bb2add6 (in that root reference) rather than Bbminor(?).

I always prefer to refer to the structure from the bottom note upward (C7sus4), because the bass player can play whatever is required by the arrangement without unnecessarily burdening the harmony player with inversion conversion (a chronic extended-age-related inflammation of the mentus aggravatum).

I refer all inquiries about the major mu chord to this page .

I took piano in junior high from a jazz player from Chicago, Bill Conti, and the education gave me virtually everything I needed for my development. Here's to the old jazzers <Clink>! Best to you! Ed Bertrand


------------------
edx.iuma.com www.soundclick.com/40LOVE www.soundclick.com/EdX

[This message has been edited by ed323 (edited 11-23-2003).]

#389841 - 11/23/03 04:54 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Bob Young (D)  Offline
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chicago il usa
Good catch Ed...

I wrote the wrong thing in..

I meant to call that a Bflat 6/9 I'm calling your 2 a 9...

Same chord tho....

bob

#389842 - 11/23/03 04:55 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Ed,

Wonderful stuff! Now here's my link to "moo" chords:

www.vtliving.com/cow/

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music



[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 11-23-2003).]


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389843 - 11/24/03 12:04 AM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 297
ed323 Offline
Serious Contributor
ed323  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 297
Yuma AZ USA
Mike, I saw a "Moose" link on the 2d page, but no "moo". So, where's the beef? Ed

http://www.vtliving.com/cow/index.shtml

Gotcha, Mike!

[This message has been edited by ed323 (edited 11-23-2003).]

#389844 - 11/24/03 12:47 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
Joined: Apr 2001
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
The moo is in MOOse.

Sorry Ed, it won't link up to the cow page, which is pretty cool. Scroll down the home page menu on the left hand side and click on "cow."

All the Best,
Mike

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389845 - 11/24/03 04:06 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4  
Joined: Sep 2003
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John Scott Offline
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John Scott  Offline
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Nashville, Tennessee
Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mike Dunbar:
Hey John,

JPF member Gary Talley, a great session player who used to be with the Box Tops, does a lot of teaching. You can, I'm sure, reach him with a quick net search.

I teach myself. I'm not a great guitarist like Gary, but I'm not a half bad teacher.

All the Best,
Mike

</font>



Hey Mike!!!

Thanks for two great leads. [Linked Image] I've heard of Gary and you of course [Linked Image]. Good to know there are two such tallented players willing to pass on knowledge to us...ummm...I'd say youngin's but that doesn't quite work in my case...so I'll say hackers [Linked Image].

Thanks for the reply Mike. I appreciate it. [Linked Image]


------------------
John

http://www.nowhereradio.com/johnscott/singles

#576911 - 01/19/08 03:31 AM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4 [Re: John Scott]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,208
Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content


Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,208
Indianapolis, IN USA
I thought I'd bring back some golden oldies! = )

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney


#1010624 - 06/02/13 09:44 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4 [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,208
Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content


Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,208
Indianapolis, IN USA
I saw Gary on Facebook recently.. need to see what is up with him?


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney


#1010638 - 06/02/13 11:05 PM Re: One man's sus2 is another man's sus4 [Re: John Scott]  
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Mackie H. Offline
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Mackie H.  Offline
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NASHVILLE, TN
I CALL HIM TALLEY MAN--

YOU CAN'T GO WRONG WITH GARY TALLEY--HE HAS HELPED A LOT OF SONG WRITERS TO IMPROVE MUSICALLY--I HAVE HIS DVD GUITAR PLAYING FOR SONGWRITERS, IT COMES WITH A BOOKLET--I'M STILL LEARNING SOME THINGS AT 74--MY BIGGEST PROBLEM, IS THE FINGERS DON'T MOVE LIKE THEY USED TO--HAVE TO DO EXERCISES AND SOAK THEM IN EPSOM SALTS, AND KEEP MY PLAYING SIMPLE--HEARING HAS GONE SOUTH WITH AGE TOO!

LEARN AND PLAY WHILE YOU CAN!

Mackie


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