Who's Online Now
22 registered members (Harriet Ames, E Swartz, 9ne, Barry David Butler, couchgrouch, Everett Adams, Brian Austin Whitney, Calvin, 4 invisible), and 311 guests, and
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Shout Box
Member Spotlight
Posts: 63
Joined: May 2012
Show All Member Profiles 
What's Going On
Can You Catch My Soul - spiritual
by E Swartz. 10/21/17 09:55 AM
My Family Reunion
by Barry David Butler. 10/21/17 09:02 AM
More cool lists-
by MidniteBob. 10/21/17 08:18 AM
The Lords of Time
by Moosesong. 10/21/17 07:22 AM
LIFE IS BEAUTIFUL
by Moosesong. 10/21/17 06:16 AM
THAT NIGHT
by Travis david. 10/21/17 04:45 AM
Who's Going to Hold me When I cry?  Travis/ Mimmo
by Travis david. 10/21/17 04:03 AM
The truth about Music Streamers?
by Brian Austin Whitney. 10/21/17 12:00 AM
Underage Thinking
by couchgrouch. 10/20/17 04:23 PM
MAN OF MANY HATS
by F Williams. 10/20/17 03:50 PM
JPF Virtual Telethon II
by MidniteBob. 10/20/17 03:31 PM
Don't Be Sorry Now - Pop R&B?
by Johnny Daubert. 10/20/17 09:52 AM
When I Turn An' Walk Away
by Johnny Daubert. 10/20/17 09:46 AM
Gord Downie gone
by MidniteBob. 10/19/17 08:28 PM
Whats been done to Me
by Gavin Sinclair. 10/19/17 07:04 PM
Door Open Wide
by lane1777. 10/19/17 03:20 PM
The Keepers
by lane1777. 10/19/17 02:58 PM
Exception
by lane1777. 10/19/17 02:41 PM
Silence
by lane1777. 10/19/17 02:36 PM
Marble
by lane1777. 10/19/17 02:32 PM
Most said
by lane1777. 10/19/17 02:29 PM
Desert Flower
by beechnut79. 10/19/17 12:21 PM
Emotions Can Run High
by beechnut79. 10/19/17 12:12 PM
'' I will never leave you''
by beechnut79. 10/19/17 12:10 PM
Bump in the Road
by beechnut79. 10/19/17 12:07 PM
Financial prophecy
by Ray E. Strode. 10/19/17 10:48 AM
THANKS FOR ALL THE PRAYERS AND CONCERN
by Nigel Quin. 10/19/17 09:37 AM
I May Not Be The One For You
by Calvin. 10/19/17 04:32 AM
So She Tells Him
by Deej56. 10/18/17 11:08 PM
Carnival Guy
by Barry David Butler. 10/18/17 05:15 PM
Top Posters(All Time)
Calvin 19,165
Kevin Emmrich 10,529
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Travis david 10,237
Two Singers 9,571
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 8,744
Mike Dunbar 8,574
glynda 8,560
Tricia Baker 8,318
Colin Ward 7,804
Corey 7,357
couchgrouch 7,205
Wyman Lloyd 6,578
Mark Kaufman 6,428
Joe Wrabek 6,400
Dave Rice 6,149
ben willis 6,065
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,718
Linda Sings 5,601
niteshift 5,323
Vicarn 5,213
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,605
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,342
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Cindy Miller 4,178
Tom Shea 4,173
Neil Cotton 4,075
nightengale 3,964
TamsNumber4 3,962
Roy Cooper 3,891
Caroline 3,865
Kolstad 3,759
Dan Sullivan 3,710
MFB III 3,687
Dottie 3,427
joewatt 3,411
Bill Cooper 3,279
beechnut79 3,225
John Hoffman 3,199
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
E Swartz 2,888
Harriet Ames 2,868
PopTodd 2,864
Nigel Quin 2,802
MidniteBob 2,654
Tom Tracy 2,558
Polly Hager 2,526
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Hummingbird 2,401
Nelson 2,392
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,241
Judy Hollier 2,232
Erica Ellis 2,202
Wendy D 2,151
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,012
DukeWill 1,984
Ray Thyer 1,929
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
maccharles 1,768
floyd jane 1,713
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Noel Downs 1,620
Iggy 1,592
Cal 1,574
Rick Heenan 1,561
Jack Swain 1,554
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
Tom Franz 1,451
RogerS 1,445
Ralph Blight 1,440
Chuck Crowe 1,435
Kenneth Cade 1,429
Rick Norton 1,427
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,406
Stan Simons 1,402
in2piano 1,399
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,300
scottandrew 1,292
DakLander 1,265
GocartMoz 1,261
Janice & Bud 1,242
Ian Ferrin 1,230
IdeaGuy 1,209
Glen King 1,209
PeteG 1,195
AaronAuthier 1,177
Diane Ewing 1,158
summeoyo 1,083
Gerry 1,082
BobbyJoe 1,075
joro 1,045
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
Tony A 1,016
argo 986
peaden 984
Wolvman 960
Jak Kelly 912
IronKnee 894
lane1777 892
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 827
Juan 797
TKO 784
frahmes 781
teletwang 762
90 dB 745
tbryson 737
Andy K 733
Andy Kemp 732
Jackie444 720
ant 709
3daveyO3 704
Dayson 703
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Katziis 652
R.T.MOORE 638
quality 637
CG King 622
douglas 621
Mel 614
NaomiSue 601
9ne 589
Shandy 589
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
Pat Hardy 577
qbaum 570
nitepiano 565
pRISCILLA 556
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
Irwin 524
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 511
goodfolks 499
Moosesong 497
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
R&M 444
dmk 442
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
Rob L 426
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
VNORTH 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 398
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
Cecilee 376
java 374
spidey 371
sweetsong 370
danny 367
Jim Ryan 360
papaG 353
Alek 352
Z - man 350
John K 348
JamesDF5 347
Jaden 344
ddreuter 341
TheBaz 340
Steggy 339
leif 339
tonedeaf 336
rickwork 334
Eddie Ray 332
Johnboy 328
Bob Lever 328
Helicon1 327
lucian 326
Muskie 321
kc 319
Z. Mulls 318
ptondreau 313
ONOFFON 312
Chris B. 310
trush 304
ed323 297
Ellen M 293
lizzorn 291
nicnac49 290
pomeranj 289
Char 286
ktunes 285
mastrose 280
pammie 279
Deej56 278
Register Today!
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.

By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#389256 - 05/13/03 01:17 PM Key Bias?  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,206
Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content


Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,206
Indianapolis, IN USA
Hi Folks,

I noticed this post by Bob:
----------------
but you're not gonna see f sharp very often...or
g flat for that matter..or c sharp or d flat for that matter..if somebody hands me a chart in d flat..I wrap some gum in it and hand it back !

Bob Young
--------------------

And I wondered if people are biased against what key something might be in and why? It never really occured to me that it would matter. I know some keys are easier to play in than others, but I am curious as to what Bob actually meant and if session players like Mike ever roll their eyes if a certain key is requested. Does it really matter?

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney


#389257 - 05/13/03 02:49 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
In a session, nobody ever complains about keys. If a certain fingering works better for the guitarist, they'll either retune or use a capo.

Live, however, is another story. If someone comes up and wants to sing Workingman Blues in Ab, they're likely to get a drink poured on them.

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389258 - 05/13/03 04:00 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 104
Sngwrtr51 Offline
Serious Contributor
Sngwrtr51  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 104
Hopkinton, MA USA
When I was first dabbling with keyboards in order to give my writing another dimension, I used what I jokingly called the Gershwin method (i.e. the transpose button). Unlike Mr Gershwin whose key was I believe F, I chose the key of C :-). Didn't have to worry about getting those stubby fingers on the black keys for F#m and the like. Also learned to play Whiter Shade of Pale, which at the time was affectionately known as the white key song.

Seriously though, on guitar I either go with the key or use a capo to get around a key I don;t care for. Not as easy for bass though - I only have a four string so I tend not to like Dd

Question: Do you think Pete Townsend has a favorite key?? Or perhaps it was Roger Daltry's best key for vocals.

Mike

#389259 - 05/13/03 04:10 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,206
Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content


Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,206
Indianapolis, IN USA
Is the bias just because it's harder to play in some keys or it is something else?

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney


#389260 - 05/13/03 04:15 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
On the fretted bass, I have no bias to any key. On the upright, F# is a pain, especially when I'm playing with other fretless instruments. Other than a fingering bias, I'm sure some keys are easier to read than others. Anyone else with some ideas on this?

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389261 - 05/13/03 04:58 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Mike,

I think it was both. Pete "No Next Time, So Get A Good Filter" Townsend seemed to love A among a few others. Roger sang well in it.

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389262 - 05/13/03 07:50 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Graham Henderson (D) Offline
Graham Henderson (D)  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Esperance. West Australia
I think it is pretty logic any player of anything, given the choise will compose in what is known to be the key they have the best range. I nearly always go for E or E minor on both keyboard or guitar. On Banjo I go for G. On balaaike I am back to E.
On lap steel I go for G at the moment simply because i got talked into putting heavy strings on it and it sounded ugly tuned to D, so slack tuned to g and like it good enough to get the full use out of the strings.
I prefer anything destined to have harp on it to be in G as to my ear that is the key harp sounds best in most often.
Closely followeds by E. Just a tonal thing.
Using C and A cross harps respectfully
Graham


------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

#389263 - 05/14/03 12:30 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 104
Sngwrtr51 Offline
Serious Contributor
Sngwrtr51  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 104
Hopkinton, MA USA
I have to correct myself. I said I used the Gershwin method, but it was actually used by Irving Berlin (a transpose lever on his piano) as noted in another thread. I guess my mind is getting old as well as my body. :-)

#389264 - 05/14/03 02:47 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372
Bob Young (D) Offline
Top 100 Poster
Bob Young (D)  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372
chicago il usa
Well Mike....

I've done a few sessions over the years and I'm gonna have to beg to differ...

I've heard lots of grumbling about what key we're in...

Hand a horn section a chart in B natural and it's just a matter of how many seconds before one of them grumbles "couldn't this ---hole sing this in C or B Flat...5 freakin' sharps..what the hell are we guitar players?"

Answering Brian...some keys work better for some instruments in terms of the mechanics of the instrument..guitars like sharp keys..E..A..G...etc..horns prefer flat keys..Bflat...E flat...F...etc...
Honestly..in Chicago you don't see many Capos..not in the downtown sessions anyway...it's changed some over the years but except for the "folk" crowd capos were a no-no..matter of pride.

Ahhhhh music...all different, all the same !

Bob Young

#389265 - 05/14/03 03:44 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
I remember the Chicago ban on capos. In Nashville, however, one of the big guitar techniques is Chicken Pickin' as pioneered by people like Jerry Reed, Albert Lee, Ray Flacke, and currently Brent Mason. This technique utilizes a lot of open string work, so a lot of guys either retune or go for other techniques. I just did a session last week with Byrd Burton, guitarist from the Amazing Rhythm Aces, and he used a capo.

I don't work with many horn sections, but last January, I was blessed to play at Blueberry Hill Studios with Wayne Jackson of the Memphis Horns. We didn't play in B, with five sharps, but we did play in E with four, and none of Wayne's section said a word.

I'm sure someone must have complained about keys at a Nashville session I've been on, but I don't recall it.

All the Best,
Mike

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389266 - 05/14/03 09:13 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,822
Larry Williams Offline
Larry Williams  Offline

Serious Contributor

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,822
Santa Clarita, CA USA
In several session-player (read: Union) circles in L.A., using a capo on a guitar is akin to entering a bicycle race with training wheels still on - UNLESS it's for a specific effect such as mimicking a lute or mandolin. You sure don't see it on electric guitars here.

You will see capos in all the coffee house/folk/alternative places, though.

Bob seems to have it right. Horn players like the flat keys because they're easier to read and play. Guitarists like the sharp keys because they can use more open strings.

On another note (ha!), there have also been studies done that seem to indicate that certain keys have a tendency to set or conjure up (or something) certain moods or feelings in people. I can't remember any scientific basis for it, but I remember the keys of G and D being "happier" than, for instance, the key of Bb or A. Don't ask me why.

Ah, Brent Mason...I have his "Hot Wired" CD. I think he also plays guitar on about 15 of the 20 tracks on the Brooks & Dunn "Greatest Hits" CD. What a monster player!

...not that Albert Lee is any kind of slouch - it reminds me about a story Vince Gill told about his stint following Albert Lee in Rosanne Cash's band years ago - or you may already know it.



------------------
Larry
www.audibleresponse.com

#389267 - 05/15/03 01:40 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Larry,

Let's hear that story!

I've never played with Brent Mason, but I've worked with one engineer who raves about him. George Clinton (no relation to the PFunk master), engineered and/or owned Fireside Recording and Bayou Sound. He said whenever Brent Mason would come in he'd roll the tape and Brent played all the parts, tone changes, setting changes on his effects, all of it in one take. I'll do a whole album without changing tone once and still redo a track or two as well as some punches.

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389268 - 05/15/03 01:52 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 104
Sngwrtr51 Offline
Serious Contributor
Sngwrtr51  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 104
Hopkinton, MA USA
Larry's note that certain keys may evoke certain moods brings to mind something said by Nigel Tufnel of the legendary band Spinal Tap: Dm is "the saddest of all keys" :-)

#389269 - 05/15/03 05:12 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Graham Henderson (D) Offline
Graham Henderson (D)  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Esperance. West Australia
That could explain why Summertime always sound nicer to me in Dm rather than Am which I learnt it in.
Know they say any song can be transposed toany key, but od times i find that just does notr wok.
Think it depends on the chords used.
I use a C3m7-5 in cahoots with Em quioite often. Often as an opening chord in Em and find when i transpose, it just does not work for me.
Guess it would gbe pretty boring if it was all cyt and dried and down to filing in the dots. Or even worse. Maths.
Graham

------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

#389270 - 05/15/03 10:14 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,096
TrumanCoyote Offline
Top 100 Poster
TrumanCoyote  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,096
I think part of this capo controversy simply derives from the type of music that dominates the session work in Nashville. Country music, like folk, calls for capos...it's that simple. It has nothing to do with lack of ability of the players...damn, those guys can play anything! It has to do with the use of open strings, and how open voicing are used in country music, particularly on acoustic guitar.

I played rockand roll and R&B for 25 years and never, EVER used a capo. It was not necessary. But now I am writing country music, on acoustic guitar, and my capo is my pal.

#389271 - 05/16/03 10:51 AM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 10,330
Jean Bullock Offline
Jean Bullock  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 10,330
Anaheim, CA, USA
On the guitar, some chords sound better than others because of the way the strings are tuned, especially if there is going to be folkstyle fingerpicking.

When I play in church, my guitar is the only instrument and I like to be able pick out parts of the melody here and there with my thumb and combine it with picking patterns and strumming to help the people sing better. If you try to do that with bar chords, it often sounds choppier and less fluid than with chords with open chords.

People with very small and or very narrow hands can have some problems with bar chords and in some keys the open chords are just exercises in torture for them. So a capo is the best solution for them. It isn't always a case of laziness.

I like the sound of most open chords better than some bar chords too. Probably doesn't make that much of a difference when you are playing in a band with a lot of other instruments, but if you are playing solo it can make difference sometimes. In some rock music for the rhythm player , the bar chords sound better than the open chords. If there is a lot of percussive strumming, bar chords usually sound better to me in those cases.


When I compose on the computer using notation and write parts for piano, I noticed some songs do sound better in different keys.

I tend to think in the key of C because it is easier to see the harmony without having to think of sharps and flats but if I have to transpose the music into a different key to make it more singable I do notice a difference in the sound and sometimes have to rearrange it so it sounds better in the new key.

I think it has something to do with the sound of the chords in first position and how close they are to the middle of the keyboard. Some chords in first position which have to be further away from middle C sound heavy and thumpy to me (for left hand) or thin and brittle in the right hand. I can use different chord inversions of course but it doesn't sound the same. Then again, that probably matters more if the piano is the solo instrument, or the most dominant one. If you are writing parts for a whole orchestra though , the other instruments can compensate.

JeanB


Please visit my facebook EZ3D PopUps for free papercraft templates. Great for beginners of all ages.

Favorite Sites:
http://facebook.com/EZ3DPopUps
http://ez3dpopups.blogspot.com/
http://harrietschock.com
http://jpfolks.com
http://phillipmartin.com


#389272 - 05/16/03 03:31 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372
Bob Young (D) Offline
Top 100 Poster
Bob Young (D)  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372
chicago il usa
On the capo bit...

I grew up surrounded by commercial and jazzbo guitar players..

I learned to look at any progression and be able to play it immediately in theree positions on the fingerboard..(including substitutions for the jazz guys)..but....
Age brings wisdom and now I see the capo not as a crutc but a valuable tool !

I use it alot especially when I'm sriting new songs...

I love 'em..

Hey...how about votes for your favorite brand ?

I use Kysers...got 5 of them !

Bob

#389273 - 05/16/03 03:41 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 10,330
Jean Bullock Offline
Jean Bullock  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 10,330
Anaheim, CA, USA
I've had a shubb, a Kyser, some plastic thingie that looked like a Toucan (My kindergartners loved it and called it Toukie but it died.) Now I have this new one that's pretty cool. I can't remember what the name of it is right now, but it is has this rolling wheel kind of thingie on the bottom. After you wrap it around the guitar, you just roll it up or down the neck to your fret of choice. I like that one the best so far. (But if you get one, don't roll it up past the nut like they say you can do, it stretches out the springs.


Please visit my facebook EZ3D PopUps for free papercraft templates. Great for beginners of all ages.

Favorite Sites:
http://facebook.com/EZ3DPopUps
http://ez3dpopups.blogspot.com/
http://harrietschock.com
http://jpfolks.com
http://phillipmartin.com


#389274 - 05/16/03 04:55 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 104
Sngwrtr51 Offline
Serious Contributor
Sngwrtr51  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 104
Hopkinton, MA USA
I've got 2 Kysers. I had to buy the second one when I got an acoustic 12 string that had a wide neck. The second was made for 12 strings.

#389275 - 05/16/03 05:55 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 10,330
Jean Bullock Offline
Jean Bullock  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 10,330
Anaheim, CA, USA
I just looked up the name. It's called "The Glider." I had some other capos before including that elastic band one, and one that has a strap that locks into some grooves. I still like the glider the best. [Linked Image]

I cracked up reading about the acoustic piano capo. Course with the new keyboards you can just transpose and always play in your favorite key. I think that is so cool.


JeanB


Please visit my facebook EZ3D PopUps for free papercraft templates. Great for beginners of all ages.

Favorite Sites:
http://facebook.com/EZ3DPopUps
http://ez3dpopups.blogspot.com/
http://harrietschock.com
http://jpfolks.com
http://phillipmartin.com


#389276 - 05/16/03 08:33 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,096
TrumanCoyote Offline
Top 100 Poster
TrumanCoyote  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,096
I like the Shubb(spelling?). I have one of the "gliders." I bought it direct form the manufacturer at a NAMM show. It took me about month to decide I hated it (BTW, don't park it behind the nut; park it right on the nut and it won't effect your tuning). I've had several Kysers and they seem to loose their tension after a while. They sure are convenient, though.

#389277 - 05/16/03 10:04 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Graham Henderson (D) Offline
Graham Henderson (D)  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Esperance. West Australia
I got a Dastro. and a simple little elastic and roller pin thing with no name on it.
Working on making one that doesn't crowd me when i sue a B7th shape close to it as i keep pushing the capo away from the fret to fit my fenceposts all,in where needed and lose clarity in the proccess.
can't make a lot of chord shapes so A capo suits me fine. I don't play guitar in public bar for jamming at the music shop Just use it to write to.
Used to always mark down a guitarist when I saw the capo come out, until I realised they werre doing the best they could with what they had, And they got a sound they were looking for.
I also found out most of them could in fact get by without the capo. But it didn't sound how they wanted it to.
Yep it is a tool. And a good one.
I've used it on the banjo from time to time too.
Graham


------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

#389278 - 05/17/03 12:13 AM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
I've got two Keysers, two Shubbs, several others, including some Hamiltons and an old thumbscrew type. My favorite is called a Victor, it screws down beautifully. I use the Keyser if I'm doing a gig where I've got to move it fast. I use the Shubb at my regular bluegrass gig, and I use the Victor in the studio.

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389279 - 05/17/03 06:52 AM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Graham Henderson (D) Offline
Graham Henderson (D)  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Esperance. West Australia
I've got two Keysers,
two Shubbs,
They're mean mothers.
yeah I got others.
Some Hamiltons
And an old thumbscrew type.

My favorite is called a Victor,
it screws down beautifully.
I use the Keyser.
When I've got to move it fast.

I use the Shubb as my regular
at bluegrass gigs,
and I use the Victor in the studio.
Oh Oh.
Yeah I got capos.
I'm into them real big.

Knew a man who didn't own.
A capo so made one out of bone.
Strapped it in with a bit of rawhide.
And though it was a bit on the roughish side.
It was that man's joy and pride.

People came from miles around.
To listen to his rustic sound.
Couldn't sing much but he could yodeladee Oh.
And he sure could make a guitarmoan.
Oh ya Oh Lay dee dee.


it weren't the devil made me do it Mike.
The words sang a song to me and I sure do hope you like.

Ihad a good time.
Pity about the rhyme.
Graham

------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

[This message has been edited by Graham (edited 05-23-2003).]

#389280 - 05/17/03 11:37 AM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Graham,

I love it. I hear it with an insistant chorus going; Capos, capos, ...every third or fourth one we could raise the key a half step, using a Keyser, of course.

Chorus:

Capos, Capos, (up 1/2 step) Capos, Capos

I'll mess with it tomorrow.

Mike

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389281 - 05/17/03 02:11 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 387
Brenda Lowry Offline
Serious Contributor
Brenda Lowry  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 387
Louisiana
I'll cast my vote for the Shubb, but haven't tried the Glider.

As for keys...I can't offer any insight re. session work, but a couple of comments on a live jam setting...

As a vocalist, it's vital for me to know what key(s) I favor for a certain song, and also to know how far I can vary from those keys. If I'm in a jam situation with a sax player or harp player and the key I call isn't good for them, it only takes a few seconds to find out what is better, and what will work for everyone who's playing, and adjust accordingly. Making the music happen is what's important. I've seen some vocalists who won't vary by as much as a half step and then insist the band do what they want--pretty rude, and a NON team player, if you ask me.

BTW I do "Summertime" in D minor, too.

Brenda


Brenda

"Well behaved women seldom make history" -- L. T. Ulrich
"...so make sure you misbehave and have Big Ovaries" -- Blue Merlot

http://www.BlueMerlot.com
http://www.Women-at-the-Well.com
http://www.CDBaby.com/cd/BlueMerlot
http://www.ileauxcannes.com

#389282 - 05/17/03 02:13 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Graham Henderson (D) Offline
Graham Henderson (D)  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Esperance. West Australia
Glad ya got some fun out of it Mike. ya phrasing just begged me to do that.
You sure music row is ready for this Cobber?
Ya a braver man than me.
I know I could sing this, but doubt I can play it on anything.
I won't hold my breathe.
Graham


------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

#389283 - 05/17/03 03:50 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,096
TrumanCoyote Offline
Top 100 Poster
TrumanCoyote  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,096
BTW, the whole point of the Glider capo is that you can reposition it almost instantaneously, simply by rolling up or down the neck to the desired position. The guy who demo'd it at the NAMM show could modulate without missing a beat. It was pretty impressive.

#389284 - 05/17/03 03:55 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
I'll differ slightly on keys for singers. As a producer, my number one concern is making the singer sound as good as possible. If it's a choice between two or three keys that all sound good, I'll go with a key that is easier on the instruments. If, however, one key sounds better than another, I'll go with the singer's better key...even if it's only slightly better.

Mike

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389285 - 05/17/03 07:49 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Graham Henderson (D) Offline
Graham Henderson (D)  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Esperance. West Australia
If you have a legal to air version of that anywhere Brenda, I would love to hear it. I have a thing about Summertime, and am working on having the worlds greatest collection of takes on it.
Even have Copyright OK from Warner Chappell for my arrangement of it which I hope to get sung one day.
Graham

------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

#389286 - 05/17/03 09:29 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Graham Henderson (D) Offline
Graham Henderson (D)  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Esperance. West Australia
I've got two Keysers,
two Shubbs,
They're mean mothers.
yeah I got others.
Some Hamiltons
And an old thumbscrew type.
My favorite is called a Victor,
it screws down beautifully.
I use the Keyser.
When I've got to move it fast.

I use the Shubb as my regular
at bluegrass gigs,
and I use the Victor in the studio.
Oh Oh.
Yeah I got capos.
I'm into them real big.

Chorus

Cappos capos everywher.
Yeah yaeh I got my share.
i got capos.
For every need.
I will ever need.
Yeah.
capos with levers.
And elastic bands.
They sure do save my hands.
I'm a capoing fool.
Yodeladi di.

Instrumental
Let's see how darn dood that thar Glider thang realy is here now.

Oh Yodeladi di

Hey there.
Don't that glider slide
Done slid all over.
And not one note rattled or died.
Oh Yeah.
I'm a capo man.
And I say that with pride.
yodeladi yiii

And back to the chorus if ya game.


Chorus

Cappos capos everywher.
Yeah yaeh I got my share.
i got capos.
For every need.
I will ever need.
Yeah.
capos with levers.
And elastic bands.
They sure do save my hands.
I'm a capoing fool.
Yodeladi di.

Oh yodelaliddi addi.
yodealidiladi idi oh.
who di iddy ladi aidi aidi aidi oh,
I'm a capo man.
Don't you know.
The above work is an ongoing thing twix Mike Dunbar and Graham Henderson, meant to bring a bit of down under ness to music row.
Yes we suport international music.
Remember Music Row.
Esperace is french for Hope.
yes there is hope for you yet.
Graham


------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

#389287 - 05/17/03 11:15 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,096
TrumanCoyote Offline
Top 100 Poster
TrumanCoyote  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,096
Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Graham:
I have a thing about Summertime, and am working on having the worlds greatest collection of takes on it.
</font>



I'll bet you don't have the recording of it by Gerry and the Pacemakers, circa 1964.

#389288 - 05/18/03 01:30 AM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Graham Henderson (D) Offline
Graham Henderson (D)  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Esperance. West Australia
Just so happens I was a gerry And The Pacemakers fan back then.
Also so happens you are right. I haven't got that one, and don't think I have heard it. But I will if hope.
Thanks for that.
Something else re the keys thuing.
Is raining and cold here so I have been messing around with key changes and done something I hadn't tried before.
Just a simple little jazz thing, but I think I will throw it up on one of my sites and if anybody wants to figure what I did key and tempo wise,I'd like to see if it comes out ithe listening.
If anybody can pick all the chords, I will be duely impressed.
Graham


------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

#389289 - 05/19/03 08:41 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 539
TheCiscoKid Offline
Serious Contributor
TheCiscoKid  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 539
central Illinois
Ah....great thread...even a fresh "capo" song!
Wasn't it Burl Ives who did the "Capo On My Brain" song?

Anyhow... in addition to all said in regards to sound, pitch, etc... capo vs no capo.... I tend to enjoy the various effects a capo has upon the tone of my guitar. As the capo position varies, so does the mood and even playing style as the position of the capo changes many things beyond pitch: ...sustain, punch, clarity, the percussive nature... etc. Chicken-pickin' or ragtime is always more enjoyable (for me) with the capo on the 2nd or 3rd fret. [Linked Image]

#389290 - 05/19/03 09:23 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Graham Henderson (D) Offline
Graham Henderson (D)  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Esperance. West Australia
Love Burl Ives. Don't recal that one though Cisco. Never the less, your comments did spark where , deep in the archives of my mind the thought for messing with Mike's words came from. Differant tune, and probably be even more differant whan Mike gets it done, but same opener.
I got Pigs. I got cows.
A got sheep.
I got all live stock I got all live stock.
I got allllll live stock.
And where am I going?
The rock island line is a mighty fine line.
Yeah the rock Island road is the road to ride.
The rock Island line is a mighty fine line.
And if ya wanna ride it.
Ya gota ride it as ya find it.
Get ya ticket at the station.
For the Rock Island Line.
A B C D, X Y Zee.
The cats in the cupboard but he can't see me.
Graham



------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

#389291 - 05/23/03 11:46 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Graham Henderson (D) Offline
Graham Henderson (D)  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Esperance. West Australia
Why this seemingly worthless bump I hear you ask.
Well. It is 'cos i just added a couple of more bits to the equally, seemingly, worthless Capo song, whoops, lyric is why, and didn't want it to go undetected, 'cos I am that sorta guy.
Graham

------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

#389292 - 05/24/03 04:19 AM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372
Bob Young (D) Offline
Top 100 Poster
Bob Young (D)  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372
chicago il usa
There's a great little film about Ramblin' Jack Elliot was made by his daughter.
In it he reminisces alot about the old times when he was runnin' with Woody Guthrie and Cisco Pike.

Fols would come up to Woody and say "Play me a song"
Woody would often answer, "Sure...any song for a nickel..."cept a Burl Ives song...that'll cost ya a dime !"

Bob

#389293 - 05/24/03 05:33 AM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Graham Henderson (D) Offline
Graham Henderson (D)  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Esperance. West Australia
Hey Cobber. Was that 'cos some of them had more than three chords in them and so a bit harder fopr the avreage folk singer to do?
Graham (singing)
oh. The buzzin' of the bees.
In the cigarette trees.
The soda water fountain.
The lemonade springs.
Where the birdies always sing.
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains


------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

#389294 - 05/31/03 06:20 AM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,558
Tom Tracy Offline
Top 100 Poster
Tom Tracy  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,558
Lumberport,WV, USA
I use a capo on the keyboard. Sounds funny, but that's basically what the transpose function is.

When sequencing and recording, I really suck as a keyboardist, and I can only play "sort of well" in a few keys. So I play in those keys and transpose. It's no different than using a capo on a guitar.

Vocally, I sing best in the keys of F and Eb. So I play the songs in C or G, and let the tools do the hard work.

In the long run, it's the final song that counts, not the tools you used to create it, so nothing else should matter.

#389295 - 05/31/03 07:08 AM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Graham Henderson (D) Offline
Graham Henderson (D)  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Esperance. West Australia
Not quite the same Tom. By doing a digital transpose, you are getting the same sound as you would if you played those chords and notes. With a capo on a guitar you get a differant sound, than youwould playing in the open position, or using barre chords.
I think.
Know my open A and capo on 5 sure sound differant.
I do the same as you al the time. Even composing on the puter, I still tend to compose in the keys, I can remembr all the chords to so I can just type them in without digging up a chord chart.
Once done, I then transpose the lot until I find the key i think suits me best.
I love technology.
Makes it almost as if I am capo-able of anything.
Graham

------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

#389296 - 05/31/03 09:13 AM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,206
Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content


Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,206
Indianapolis, IN USA
Actually.. to the trained ear you can tell the difference between someone playing the keyboard in a key live and someone playing a different key with it transposed. It is extremely subtle, but the minute timing differences when forming various chords with your hands in different ways versus other keys which have been transposed would be audible to someone, for example, who can critically judge a master classical pianists performance from one show to the next.

But for us regular humans.. when mixed in a song.. as long as the inversions are the same, I think a chord sounds like a chord, on guitar or keyboard, capo or transposed.

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney


#389297 - 05/31/03 10:30 AM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
I agree. Because of the gestalt effect on perception, we don't notice, but there is a difference, in vibration, in relation to other enironmental vibrations. Different keys sound better to you at different times. It depends on how you, and the room, are tuned.

I imagine, like you say, this could have a subtle effect, but maybe not noticeable. I do, however, notice when someone is out of their singing range, or an instrument is out of it's useful range. That's why I like bass solos that are on the low notes.

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#389298 - 05/31/03 11:12 AM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,558
Tom Tracy Offline
Top 100 Poster
Tom Tracy  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,558
Lumberport,WV, USA
Yes, seriously, a lot of this has to do with our accepted equi-tempered pitchtable. Without getting too technical, this pitchtable adjusts and lowers each note by minute amounts (microtones) until it "sounds right" to our ears. The intervals between each pitched note varies - which is why some keys sound different than others, and really what the original posting was all about.

Graham, you are right - Transposing on the keyboard IS different because it adjusts all of these intervals equally, and you don't get the subtle differences that Brian mentions. I also play mainly string instruments and often use the capo on them for exactly the reasons you speak of.

Key bias can become a major problem when you use ethnic instruments that are not based on the equi-tempered pitch table. In some cases, these instruments really only sound good to our ears in one key.

#389299 - 05/31/03 12:09 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Graham Henderson (D) Offline
Graham Henderson (D)  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Esperance. West Australia
I would have thought on on a keyboard the chords are in fact formed with the hands in the inversion they are wanted and the transposing is mearly the programing teling the puter the keyboard is being played X semitones up or down.
Surprised to learn there would be a differance in the actual sound because of it Guys.
I would have thought if you upped the tone say 4 semitones and hit a C3, the outgoing tone would be the same tone as if you hit an undoctored E3. And the C chord stating there would play an exact Straight E.
Sure glad my ear isn't that well tuned I tell ya.
Graham



------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

#389300 - 06/05/03 08:00 PM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 340
SimpleSimon Offline
Serious Contributor
SimpleSimon  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 340
New Zealand
The thing about keys is that it's not just the chords themselves that make the difference - it's also the voicings of them. I have often found, when playing in covers bands in the past, that if I transpose a song I have often needed to make changes to the actual arrangement (chord inversions etc) in order to get it sounding "right".

Incidentally, I just found this website which some of you might find interesting. It discusses the moods supposedly inherent in the various keys.

http://www.library.yale.edu/~mkoth/keychar.htm


Life is exactly what we decide it is in any given moment
#389301 - 06/06/03 01:01 AM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Graham Henderson (D) Offline
Graham Henderson (D)  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Esperance. West Australia
I would say that is because the notes being used in the melody demand they be the accentuated notes in a chord for it to sound right.
Like a E7 on sixth fret gives you a B on the first sting, and can slide the shape down to get a run of B A G F# E sort of thing.
Graham

------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

#389302 - 07/13/03 10:57 AM Re: Key Bias?  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 774
Ozone Pete Offline
Serious Contributor
Ozone Pete  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 774
Unionville, CT, USA
Capo-ing, I use a Shubb because it's very "positive" and [if applied correctly] doesn't tend to pull the strings sideways and screw up your tuning. (On the 12 [my giggin' beast], I usually have to flatten the lower octave E and A a bit to get 'er "right" but that's done quickly because you tend to expect it.)
One other tip about that brand; don't adjust the screw so you have a vise-like tension on the neck. It works best if you have just enough tension to cancel them buzzes; no more.

I capo a lot when playing ensemble to create that "a little different" sound from the other plethora of acoustic bangers. [Linked Image] (You know; if they're banging in C, I'll capo on the thrid fret and play in A formation, so when they go for the F, my higher D formation has a lot more possibilities of running lines and "tinklier" trebles. Oops, now I gotta pee... [Linked Image]
***Edit: I must add here (as Bob knows), I'm a fairly "limited" player, so the capo is a very valuable tool to me as a solo whacker for the open string possibilities that I actually "need". No excuses, just personal reality. "...a man's gotta know his limitations." -Dirty Harry

Graham, ol' son,
I do Summertime in Em; very effective.
(Well, I AM tuned down a whole step, so tonally, I'm in actual Dm, but we were talking about chord-forms, were we not?) [Linked Image]

------------------
Ozone
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/1/ozonepetemusic.htm

[This message has been edited by Ozone Pete (edited 07-13-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Ozone Pete (edited 07-13-2003).]

#576913 - 01/19/08 03:32 AM Re: Key Bias? [Re: Ozone Pete]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,206
Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content


Top 10 Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,206
Indianapolis, IN USA
I thought I'd bring back some golden oldies! = )

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney


#585221 - 02/11/08 01:31 AM Re: Key Bias? [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 9,571
Two Singers Offline
Two Singers  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 9,571
Usually At Home
Thanks for bringing this one back, Brian!

As far as capos...use them when I need to. have no problems with it. However, tis my opinion that the strings on the guitar do not resonate quite as fully when capoed. or, maybe it's just my tired old ears. Thirty years in front of a Peavey Session 400 and 23 years playing bang-bang-shoot-em-up in the Army may have something to do with that. Those grenades, rockets and bazookas in Vietnam probably didn't help a lot, either.

As far as keys, I think most singers have certain keys that suit their voices better than other keys. I have an extremely limited vocal range, so keys are VERY important to me for vocal purposes. Almost all of my slow songs are in D, E-Flat or F, and most fast songs are either in E or A.

As far as keys on the guitar, with rare exceptions, keys just don't make a rip to me. I can play it in any key you can sing it in. The songs "Honky Tonk" and "Foggy Mountain Breakdown", I always play in E and G, respectively because of the open strings and the resonance I get from the uncapoed strings.

Like Bob Not-So-Young, I learned to play every song from three different positions: (1) F, on the first fret...that'll make ya work! (2) A on the 5th fret (3) G, on the 8th fret. So, with the very rarest of exceptions, keys just don't matter to me.

A good example of how that really helps: The lead singer in the band I played with for many years in Germany sang "Behind Close Doors" in B-Flat. A guy who used to sit in with us at times sang it in the key of F. I thanked myself for all those hours of sitting aroubnd learning to play from those three different positions!

Interesting topic.

Al

#585234 - 02/11/08 02:15 AM Re: Key Bias? [Re: Two Singers]  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 7,898
Johnny Daubert Offline
Top 25 Poster
Johnny Daubert  Offline
Top 25 Poster

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 7,898
New Jersey, USA
Could be comfort zone syndrome. (covers just liking certain songs and those keys,,,,or for not learning all the a to z's of scales and chords)

Could be tone color addiction.

Could be Vocal reasons, and the habit of starting off in certain keys to which to find a melody, or once having a melody, to go to chords of usual and make it fit,,,,or even change the melody, (which might be a mistake if not as good as the one there, just because of not being able to hit the previous high note, and not wanting to move the key down).

Sometimes, blues riffs, (for piano, as I know better about them), can be honed over the years by staying in one key, as it then becomes so natural to play whatever the heart desires. I started to play Jazz and blues riff in C, and since can play them in my sleep. If on keys, and the song calls for some heavy duty riffs, I'll pitch the key to have it be as if it's in C. (is that wrong?)

I can adapt for other keys, of course like G, for that kind of playing, but it's not as natural. I'd rather not think when expressing a feeling or mood.

I have songs of various genres in all keys. It's the tone color that attracts me most for the mood of the song that either comes to me, or I somehow choose to compose. (maybe it's the same thing). But I noticed on the two films scored, I just found a note or chord that seemed to fit the scene's mood,,,or sometimes. even the opposite of the obvious mood. (Contrasts work too, and finding the key for them is,,,,dare I say, key>,, oh man.

John


Actually a Member Since 1996 or 97 (Number One Hundred Something).
Songnado I and II:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=322686





#585269 - 02/11/08 04:30 AM Re: Key Bias? [Re: Johnny Daubert]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,601
Linda Sings Offline
Linda Sings  Offline

Top 40 Poster

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,601
Scorpio
Hey, just saw this.
Graham, if you're around sometime (I know you went offline mostly) pop me that Summertime arrangement and I'll take a stab at it. That is hands-down my FAVORITE song to sing, period. I almost bought me a Harry Fox $18 license the other day to cover it. I still might - deciding on # of copies/downloads I should go for.

Back to keys - I tend to compose in Ab and F most often, but I also like D and A. I sing least well in G. I don't know why. But I can feel it.

Linda

#585879 - 02/12/08 10:08 PM Re: Key Bias? [Re: Linda Sings]  
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,400
Joe Wrabek Offline
Top 40 Poster
Joe Wrabek  Offline
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,400
Garibaldi, OR USA
I forget whether I ever answered this one.

I sing in C almost exclusively--it about encompasses my limited voice range. There are a handful of old Gospel songs I do in G so I can use my Preacher Voice, which is *way* at the bottom of my range. And I have written a couple in D, where I wanted a real whiny sound from singing at the top of my voice range. Both the Ds and Gs are a strain on my voice, and I can't do more'n a couple without giving myself a rest.

Play? Like some others have said, I can play in any key. What configurations I use for the chords ('cause there's between 3 and 5 ways to play just about any chord), and whether I use a capo, depends on the song. If I've developed a particular pattern for a song (I will have done that for a lot of covers I play regularly), then I'll often use a capo to boost that pattern up to whatever key the singer's comfortable singing in, and we're done.

Joe

#649884 - 09/07/08 06:21 PM Re: Key Bias? [Re: Joe Wrabek]  
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 63
Chris Jay Becker Offline
Serious Contributor
Chris Jay Becker  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 63
Cedar Rapids, Iowa, USA
I have favorite keys, especially on guitar, but I think that certain genres gravitate toward certain keys.

Blues works best in E because it's the easiest key for guitar shuffles because you can use the open Low E string and the open A string. D is a good blues key if you want to use either a drop D tuning or an Open D (Vestapol) which can be tuned up to an Open E Vestapol on the electric. Same goes for Open G (Spanish) tuning/open A on electric.

I wrote most of my other songs in D. When I started writing more Country, Bluegrass, and Southern Gospel I started writing them mostly in G.


Chris Jay Becker
Hallelujah Street Music
#651646 - 09/12/08 04:36 PM Re: Key Bias? [Re: Chris Jay Becker]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Chris,

I also write some rock shuffles in A, in the bass strings it's similar to using the E.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#651867 - 09/13/08 01:03 PM Re: Key Bias? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,554
Jack Swain Offline
Top 200 Poster
Jack Swain  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,554
Berwyn, IL, US
I tend to write in G, D, A, C and E mostly, the guitar-centric keys. I used to find myself writing quite a bit in G, then D became more prominent, Now, as my voice is stronger than it has ever been I want to sing in E quite a bit. My vocal range is nearly identical to Marty Robbins' and he sang many, many songs in the key of E. I think it might have been his favorite key. I have also heard him take those same songs and drop them to Eb sometimes.

Last edited by Jack Swain; 09/13/08 01:05 PM.
#652127 - 09/14/08 06:43 PM Re: Key Bias? [Re: Jack Swain]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
BIG JIM MERRILEES Offline
BIG JIM MERRILEES  Offline

Top 20 Poster

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,463
Edinburgh, Scotland. UK
I do not believe in favourite keys.
Every song is different. There are reasons why certain songs are played or written in certain keys. It is easier to play or sing seems to be the most reasonable explanation. Certain chords do sound better or richer if played in another key might also be a factor to be taken into consideration. Horns are better suited to flat keys as most are scaled in E flat. Male female is also a factor as very few males can sing a female song in the original key and vice versa. Bagpipes are another ballgame altogether as the one key drone is limiting. So all in all it is important to play in a key taking everything into consideration. Sometimes a compromise is needed.

#652747 - 09/17/08 04:08 AM Re: Key Bias? [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,384
mattbanx Offline
Serious Contributor
mattbanx  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,384
Northern Minnesota
Liking much psychedelic and alternative type of music, plus some early new wave and jazz, I like a lot of the minor keyed type music.
But I originally got more into vocal and musical styles more than form and song structure, outside of plodding 4 beats. I have looked at the different keys to have more zest and retain my musical interests.
Trad music has quite a bit of that.
I did not try much more then post eighties type music before I came on the internet. So I have been pretty much winging it and then trying to prose up for all but a few of my recordings of what I originally did.
And rewriting a few of my older recordings in a classicist vein.

The key can really change the dynamic in an old song.

I notice that taut pop songs with bright keys seem to be a whole lot better for me in learning song structure, as far as practicing.
Something like Bread catches the synapses more directly then Pink Floyd.
Although I am more into the dark type stuff like Floyd.
I like to try and marry both elements together.
Besides, I'm not all negative or rebellious at all times.

There seems to be more of a dramatic quality applying certain measures of both the bright and dark though.

#652827 - 09/17/08 12:48 PM Re: Key Bias? [Re: mattbanx]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Matt,

I think a lot of the "darkness" of a bit of music depends on where you place the melody. You can take the same key, C for example, and sing the first line of "You've Lost that Loving Feeling" which starts on the fifth below the root, and it sounds dark. You could sing the first line of "Rocky Top" which starts on the fifth above the root, and it sounds bright.

I do think key does make a difference, especially depending on the ambient resonance of the instrument or room. It also makes a difference with the fingering and tuning of the instrument. However, I believe chord voicing and melody placement has equal or greater effect.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#653061 - 09/17/08 10:39 PM Re: Key Bias? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,384
mattbanx Offline
Serious Contributor
mattbanx  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,384
Northern Minnesota
That's odd how that can work.
I know on the ones I redid the melody had to be altered and the chords had to be aligned differently to my voice after I started with bringing the key up.

Sometimes when I do a new song it sounds like it is in a lower key in my memory.
If I do something in an E for example, it comes out like a D in my memory.
Never higher though.
Does that happen to anyone here?

Must be all that dark music.

#653064 - 09/17/08 10:47 PM Re: Key Bias? [Re: mattbanx]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,428
Mark Kaufman Offline
Mark Kaufman  Offline

Top 40 Poster

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,428
Minneapolis
I make an effort to change up the keys...they have different flavors, and sometimes a half-step change of key makes your voice sound better--not because it's more comfortably in range, but because the vocal vibrations just resonate better. Now that I mainly record and don't worry about playing live, I experiment even more. I really like Eb and Bb and F#...keys not usually explored on a guitar.

#653207 - 09/18/08 10:56 AM Re: Key Bias? [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Mark,

Just for fun, check out the keys of your favorite songs. I am guessing here that there will be more of what I call the reed keys (the flat keys, F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb ) than you thought. In the studios here, the key is almost always determined by the singer's "sweet spot." A half step one way or another can make a remarkable difference in the singing voice...one more half step and it can be lost. A lot of studio guitar players will retune a half step to accomodate both the voice and the cool fingerings.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#655555 - 09/26/08 09:18 PM Re: Key Bias? [Re: Johnny Daubert]  
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 694
Jim Offerman Offline
Serious Contributor
Jim Offerman  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 694
Utrecht, The Netherlands
On transposing keyboards: I do hear the difference between a C played on a keyboard that has been transposed up two semi-tones and a D played on the same keyboard when it is not transposed. I couldn't tell which is which in a blindfolded test, but I could tell them apart.

I don't have an overall bias for certain keys, but I do have specific biases for specific songs because my voice changes with the key I'm singing in. So a song that sounds great when I sing it in C, might sound wrong when sung in C#.

Of course, being a singer, I feel that the vocals should always dictate which key the song is played in. I really hate it when a perfectly good cover band screws up a perfectly good cover, because the song is played in a pitch that doesn't suit the singer.


Jim Offerman ~ inspirational pop music
blog - follow me twitter - buy 'Start Here' on bandcamp!
#655643 - 09/27/08 01:12 PM John Daubert, what do you think? [Re: Jim Offerman]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Jim,

That's an interesting observation. I'll try it. I use transposing for keyboard a lot, but don't play enough to notice. I wonder what our JPF resident piano tuner, John Daubert, would think? I'll put him in the subject box and see if he answers. You out there John?


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#656156 - 09/29/08 09:06 PM Re: John Daubert, what do you think? [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 7,898
Johnny Daubert Offline
Top 25 Poster
Johnny Daubert  Offline
Top 25 Poster

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 7,898
New Jersey, USA
Hey Mike, coming over from the shout box. Thanks for asking my thoughts on this. Since I replied on page one back in Feb, I'll copy and paste that, then add anything I can think of now!:

From my reply:
Could be comfort zone syndrome. (covers being in certain keys, or just liking certain songs and those keys,,,,or for not learning all the a to z's of scales and chords)

Could be tone color addiction. (As to your current asking of my thoughts: Each note and of course chord has their own tone color. So Jim's ear is right. Although he'll play a C, if the keyboard is pitched up or dowm, the tone colar of the chord will be that of the actual chord, not the position of playing a C.

F# for example, is a bright, or eveb harsh note. Used for dramatic effects when I scored a Russian style film. I went form a F# to a C chord, to first knock you over the head, to a thoughtful sounding chord in the C chord. "Lennon;s Imagine in C is the perfect chord for that song, (and probably either easy to play for Lennon, or he instinctively knew that was the chord to start such a song on, and hammer it home all the way. (The reason his subconscious music mind would rock back and forth to the F, another pleasant sounding chord, and returning to the C. That song in another key would get the point across, but not the human conditioning of how sound waves affects our brains.

OK, back to the copied reply:

Could be Vocal reasons, and the habit of starting off in certain keys to which to find a melody, or once having a melody, to go to chords of usual and make it fit,,,,or even change the melody, (which might be a mistake if not as good as the one there, just because of not being able to hit the previous high note, and not wanting to move the key down).

Sometimes, blues riffs, (for piano, as I know better about them), can be honed over the years by staying in one key, as it then becomes so natural to play whatever the heart desires. I started to play Jazz and blues riffs in C, and since can play them in my sleep. If on keys, and the song calls for some heavy duty riffs, I'll pitch the key to have it be as if it's in C. (is that wrong?) (Added words from Mike's asking about pitch: This is one reason my blues doesn't sound like a suffering blues. When I was asked to play some blues parts for a recording by a friend of mine nearby, he said I was paying too cheery for the song. I tried to feel depressed, then play. Didn't matter. So, knowing the real reason, I said if you get another singer to sing it in Eb, I can sound more lke the song's meaning, with then having tones of Gm in there. Gm is a down, moody tone colar chord. (Used in the film I mentioned above in spots Buddy and I needed to be drony sounding. Dm, on the other hand, is a bright minor chord. Good for an honest, positive sound, although a minor, (the Dm).

OK, again, back to the copied reply:
I can adapt for other keys, of course like G, for that kind of playing, but it's not as natural. I'd rather not think when expressing a feeling or mood. (Added: I found out as above that my blues playing won't be real blues if not pitched away from the C). Even going to B or Bb would be a better sounding blues key.

Back to the copied reply:
I have songs of various genres in all keys. It's the tone color that attracts me most for the mood of the song that either comes to me, or I somehow choose to compose. (maybe it's the same thing). But I noticed on the two films scored, I just found a note or chord that seemed to fit the scene's mood,,,or sometimes. even the opposite of the obvious mood. (Contrasts work too, and finding the key for them is,,,,dare I say, key>,, oh man.

Added words from Mike's request: Thanks Mike!
John


Actually a Member Since 1996 or 97 (Number One Hundred Something).
Songnado I and II:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=322686





#656162 - 09/29/08 09:42 PM For John Daubert again [Re: Jim Offerman]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Originally Posted by Jim Offerman
On transposing keyboards: I do hear the difference between a C played on a keyboard that has been transposed up two semi-tones and a D played on the same keyboard when it is not transposed. I couldn't tell which is which in a blindfolded test, but I could tell them apart.


John, this is the part I'd like you to comment on. If you get a chance, please let us know your thoughts.

Thanks for the update on your previous post. Your ideas are always more than welcome.

Mike


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#656234 - 09/30/08 03:53 AM Re: For John Daubert again [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 7,898
Johnny Daubert Offline
Top 25 Poster
Johnny Daubert  Offline
Top 25 Poster

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 7,898
New Jersey, USA
OH!

Ok, as far as I can tell, and I listened carefully to that example, (A synthesized note is the same, no matter the keyboard note used to make the sound) BUT, I noticed before and now with detail, what Jim is hearing is also correct, as it's in the position of the fingers that will create the different attacks, thus different tones of the same note that has been pitched. The reason for that is a D position chord must play the F# with the middle or index finger. Even if trying to play both chord positions at the exact same attack, by having to play an F#, (position wise only I'm talking about), the D position C chord, (pitched up), will have the attack be a little heavier due to the reach to strike the F#, with the 1st and 5th notes going along for the ride and striking them a little harder in that process of playing a D position chord. One can make the two chords in the pitch up example Jim gave the same, (NOT easy), by making an effort to either play the natural C chord a little harder, or to play the D position C chord sound a little lighter. BUT, even at that, it may not be exact, due to the reach of the D chord position. That can throw off the attack of the 1st and 5th notes of the chord, which will have both examples sound slightly different, BUT not in tone color. It would take practice at first knowing how to strike notes at any given attack.

I tuned for the world renown teacher Caramuto, (when in Medford, NJ), and he made a machine that would measure attack pressure for each note. He would train world class players before their tours, to get them to express exactly the feel of the music through specific dynamics. (20%. strikes, 37% strikes, 95% and so on). That is one factor that make world class players what they are. They just don't play something soft, or medium, or loud. The best of the best could sometimes get all 100 strikes after years of training for that. If having that much control, they could get the same attack for each note of a chord, no matter the position. In other words, they would be able to do Jim's example, and not even a soundwave examination would be able to tell. And that is because tone color will not change just in pitching and position changes, as long as the said notes are the notes. (a C is a C, no matter what key is needed to set off that signal for that C due to pitching. (Keyboards of course).

It's all the attack of each note in those positions.

You can demonstrate this by using just one note and first knowing the attack will be the same. THAT is very hard to do, even for playing just one note though. So, if hitting a note over and over, and playing up or down after pitching, most will not play the note the same, thus making the sound either softer or brighter for that tone color of that note's sound.

Hope that makes sense. It does to me, but I've been around that kind of technique and trying to play with wanted attacks for years now. Over 30 since learning piano tuning and having met Caramuto.


Actually a Member Since 1996 or 97 (Number One Hundred Something).
Songnado I and II:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=322686





#656255 - 09/30/08 10:42 AM Re: For John Daubert again [Re: Johnny Daubert]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
John,

Yes, that makes perfect sense. I used to work on making any key on the bass sound the same, regardless of the fingering. I found a good way was to wear sound reducing ear plugs smile

Thanks for the cogent explanation. Please feel free to comment here whenever you find the urge.

All the Best,
Mike


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#656318 - 09/30/08 03:29 PM Re: For John Daubert again [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 7,898
Johnny Daubert Offline
Top 25 Poster
Johnny Daubert  Offline
Top 25 Poster

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 7,898
New Jersey, USA
Ha! Ironic! Sound reducing earplugs, to better hear sound! That actually is what worked for our band, (our on stage volume), as now, we mic everything, thus not needing to push our amps out to the people. The PA of course does that, (as most bands use that system).

Less sound heard,,,,,,,to hear more music! Hmmmm!
It's all in the details, for sure! And they are usually hidden within. Once found, look out! Works for those world class pianists I talked about, and in every musical situation for all of us, if we allow it, that is.

The tough part is to control exactly, the three finger chords and more on the keys, for those reaching of the black keys, however so slightly that is for any given chord with sharps. Even a C chord, or a Dm, or Am has to be played carefully if wanting one or two of the notes to be brought across more than the others. Or for when the same.

Unless it's ROCK! Ha! But Rock by great bands will still find careful dynamics, if we listen for them, that is!

Thanks again for asking my thoughts on the keys.

John


Actually a Member Since 1996 or 97 (Number One Hundred Something).
Songnado I and II:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_music.cfm?bandID=322686





#941904 - 01/23/12 03:40 AM Re: Key Bias? [Re: Sngwrtr51]  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 577
Pat Hardy Offline
Top 500 Poster
Pat Hardy  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 577
Wasn't it Irving Berlin, not Gershwin, who played everything in F#? --And he had a special piano made where a lever which shift the hammers to play different keys while he could still use the F# fingerings.

#941908 - 01/23/12 04:06 AM Re: Key Bias? [Re: Johnny Daubert]  
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,710
Dan Sullivan Offline
Top 100 Poster
Dan Sullivan  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,710
MI
This is fascinating stuff to read. I'd like to see more of these discussions among professional musicians. I don't know if it's just curiosity on my part or an appreciation of talented artists discussing the tools of their trade that makes this so intriguing to me. But let's have more of it.


Write from your heart, not what you think others want to hear.

https://dansullivan2.bandcamp.com

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/dansullivan2
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.


Membership
Join Just Plain Folks
to receive the free
JPNotes Newsletter!
*this is separate from
message board registration*

Newest Members
Fdemetrio, sravy, NielsA, sevenoak88, ClaytonBlas1
20952 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums116
Topics117,033
Posts1,102,034
Members20,952
Average Posts Daily24
Most Online1,506
Mar 16th, 2017
Just Plain Quotes
"Our enemies may not be who we think they are. They are not Major Label monopolies. The world will always have 'majors.' They are not big corporations who own everything. The world will always have 'big' ones. Our enemies are not the loud mouthed critics telling us we will fail. The world will always have those too. Our most dangerous enemy is our own quiet acceptance of the fate we perceive these entities have mapped out for us. The only danger is our own complacency, or inactivity, and our willingness to believe so called experts who tell us we 'can't' and that our grim fate is inevitable." -Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
acousticwriter63 (54)
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0