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#388927 - 09/07/02 03:08 AM Modes  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
We all play in modes, do to do is a major mode of the grand scale. La to La is of less importance, so it's a minor mode of the grand scale.

Modes pre-date tempered tuning. The greeks gave each mode a name:

Ionian do to do
Dorian re to re
Phrygian mi to mi
Lydian fa to fa
Myxolidian sol to sol
Locian mi to mi

Miles Maxwell, in another post, offers a mnemonic to memorize this...I Don't Play Like My Aunt Liberace.

I learned:

In Dr Peppers Laboratory Many Are Lost

Ionian is the major scale,

Lydian is the regular minor scale (we do other things to minor, but they involve accidentals, sharps and flats not in the grand scale.)

Dorian sounds Hungarian.

Myxolydian sounds scottish or bluegrass or southern rock.

What do you think the others sound like?


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388928 - 09/07/02 01:42 PM Re: Modes  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,372
Bob Young (D) Offline
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Bob Young (D)  Offline
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chicago il usa
Well Mike...

I'm aan old time rock and roll guitar player...

Guess my favorite mode is Pie ala (peach preferably)

Bob Young

#388929 - 09/07/02 03:04 PM Re: Modes  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Bob,

Yep, me too...peach. Don't forget all those dot com businesses that crashed. They ended up in the com mode.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388930 - 09/07/02 04:34 PM Re: Modes  
Joined: Sep 2001
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Jean Bullock Offline
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Anaheim, CA, USA
LOL, you guys crack me up. I hope we can all have coffee together some day and invite Judy and Pete too. I'll be laughing so hard they'll have to send for the men in the little white coats. No not the waiters.

It's been so long since I studied those modes. Think I will start practicing the "exotic" sounding ones again. Come to think of it, it has been a long time since I had the Pie one as well.

The best apple pie a la mode that I ever had was nearly 40 years ago at a little place called Ma Zips, some where between California and New Mexico. I was 12 then. Don't remember the state, just the a la mode.


JeanB


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http://jpfolks.com
http://phillipmartin.com


#388931 - 09/07/02 07:58 PM Re: Modes  
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songman Offline
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Sunland, Ca
Hi Mike, I gotta say that when I started approaching the modes more like "shapes" on the fretboard they started being more user friendly to me after awhile. Like maybe where BB or Freddie or Alberts' (King) licks lived within say, the mixolydian and such. I realize it's good to understand how these modes fit into the harmonization process. I went through the Dick Grove thing to understand all that. But it always comes down to the fact of when it comes time to play you've actually got to abandon the theory and go with your heart and soul. Kind of like the way Joe Pass approached chord theory. He just lumped dom 7th's, Maj, Min's, and Aug5th sounds into groups and didn't let the particular alterations get in the way of the playing. A very hip way to the music itself! Oh Well, I'm rambling but, I guess your favorite mode would be related to your musical style of preference. So take it from there and play your ass off! Like I've been told, "Tighten' it up, but keep it Loose!." Best Regards, TJ


TJ Sullivan
#388932 - 09/08/02 01:04 AM Re: Modes  
Joined: Apr 2001
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
TJ,

I understand the "shapes" thing. When I started college as a music major, I was the only one in the class who didn't know how to read music. I didn't even know Elephants Got Big Dirty Feet. What I did know were shapes on the guitar. These shapes and the way they related to each other were my alternate "music theory". I ended up being one of three people in our class who aced all our theory programs. The other two were classically trained pianists, good players but they couldn't jam the blues.

Did you ever check out the Lydian Chromatic system for Jazz? Lydian gives you a "leading tone" for the 5 as well as the 1; the chromatic element lets you "noodle" around. I use it for jazz bass solos. I'm a slow bass player and a neophyte jazzer. When they would throw me a solo, I used to freeze. Now I start with a #4 and throw out a chromatic run and it even fools the sax players.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388933 - 09/08/02 10:02 PM Re: Modes  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 31
SusanRJones Offline
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SusanRJones  Offline
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Moundsville, WV, USA
Uh, oh. I didn't know Elephants Got Big Dirty Feet!

What is it?

#388934 - 09/08/02 10:23 PM Re: Modes  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
It's a mnemonic device for the lines, bottom to top, on the treble staff.

Every Good Boy Does Fine

is the most common, but I prefer:

Elephants Got Big Dirty Feet



------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388935 - 09/09/02 11:19 AM Re: Modes  
Joined: Feb 2002
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Miles Maxwell Offline
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Miles Maxwell  Offline
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Just wanted to concur on the Mixolydian Bluegrass-y front. From interviews I've read, Jerry Garcia (a big bluegrass fan) was known to do nothing but rely on mixo leads...


miles maxwell
milesmaxwell.com
#388936 - 09/09/02 06:52 PM Re: Modes  
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songman Offline
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songman  Offline
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Sunland, Ca
Lydian Chromatic System? No man, but it sounds very cool! Mike, you might be just the guy to ask about Melodic Minor Modes, which has been an ongoing thing for me with bop and jazz stuff. Any tips on on how to apply them in a practical manner? I've been finding some useful licks and such based on the 4th and 5th modes of the scale (the Mix#4, and I believe the Mix b6th). I understand these modes are used extensively to spice up blues and jazz, but my theory is limited. I guess I paid attention more on some days than others! I realize that they can be used in many more applications than simply "Minor" tunes. What's the deal?
Regards, TJ


TJ Sullivan
#388937 - 09/09/02 11:53 PM Re: Modes  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


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Nashville Tennessee
Melodic minors? You mean like the Vienna Boys Choir?

OK, here goes:

The natural minor scale is built on la...la ti do re mi fa sol la. Let's convert that to arabic numerals...6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6

It makes for beautiful, sad melodies, but look at the three basic chords...in major they'd be 1 4 5...in natural minor they'd be 6m 2m 3m. Some composer said, "Golly, I'd sure like to be able to have the great 'pull' feel you get going from 5 to 1 when going from 3m to 6m. I think I'll try making the 3m into a 3major!" In order to do this, he had to sharp the 5. this resulted in a minor scale that accomodated the harmony...the harmonic minor scale:

6 7 1 2 3 4 #5 6.

The problem was, when you wrote a melody with this scale, going from the 4 to the #5 gave you an augmented second...it sounded middle eastern, romanian, exotic, folksy. Then some other composer said, "I wish I could move from the 4 to the #5 to the 6 the way I can move from the 6 to the 7 to the 1 in my melodies." So she decided to sharp the four...6 7 1 2 3 #4 #5 6. But this made the end part of the scale sound too much like a major scale.

Finally a compromise was reached. A smart young (possibly a transplanted Chicagoan living in Nashville), composer said, "As long as we're throwing around sharps like confetti on Times Square, let's just EITHER sharp or natural the four and five--and, just to keep it fathomable, when we present it in a pedagogical scalar fashion, we'll sharp 'em on the way up and natural 'em on the way down. This became known as the melodic minor scale:

6 7 1 2 3 #4 #5 6 5 4 3 2 1 7 6


In the key of Am, relative minor to C, this would be A B C D E F# G# A G F E D C B A

Now, what this does, is give the musician the ability to use melodic aspects of the major scale when playing in minor. (Notice that it also was a precursor of the blues scale.)

If you look at it in Am, all you have to do is throw in an occasional C# and you've got Major, Minor, Lydian, Myxolydian, and Chromatic possibilities all in one scale.

Practically speaking? Going up sharped and down naturalled can sound real cool. It lifts you thrillingly then descends with a touch of melancholy. Play:

3 #4 #5 6 5 4 3 over and over until you can quote it in any key.

Also you can play the old standby:

6 #5 5 #5 5 #4 4 3 b3 3

That's the famous motiff of the Entrance Scene of the Gladiators. It shares a lot with the melodic minor, and it's fun to quote in improvs. The b3 (or #2) gives a cool "lydian" feel to the minor.

I also like to throw in harmonic minor melodies, playing around with that augmented second. The old Jackie Gleason Show theme song started out ascending in harmonic minor and descending chromatically:

3 4 #5 5 #4 4 3

And away we go!




------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388938 - 09/11/02 05:52 PM Re: Modes  
Joined: Sep 2001
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songman Offline
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Sunland, Ca
Mike, The Melodic Minor Modes I'm talking about have half steps between 2-3 and 7-8. ascending and descending and the modes based on that premise. It's supposedly used by jazzers and such exclusively. Guitar Player Mag did a seven month coulmn based on these modes last year. They treated the scale just like the major modes. I've been fooling with them for several months now and am still searching for "shapes." Difference in what we're talking about is that it doesn't change on the descending part of the scale. Does this make any sense to you? Regards, Tj


TJ Sullivan
#388939 - 09/11/02 07:30 PM Re: Modes  
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Butch Offline
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Butch  Offline
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Long Beach,Ca. USA
Dang ......I'm sposed to be writing music today and some how this theory stuff caught my brain(very bad for composing) so I'm gonna get through my little obssesion.......
I'm not the best at this stuff but here's an explanation if you don't get one.the Jazz Melodic Minor scale is used to play over alterd (usually dominant) chords.the thory is it's the altered notes of altered chords
The notes for an altered dominant (b5,#5,b9,#9) are all contained in the Jazz Melodic Minor.I'm sure it's got a millin dipsy doodle names ...
Ex.

For C7th altered (b5,#5,b9,#9)

C7th= C-E-G-Bb

Db Jazz Melodic Minor

Db b9
Eb #9(b3)
E(Fb) 3
Gb b5
Ab(G#) #5
Bb b7
C root

Since it's relating to the C7th altered chord it would be C(..fill in your fav name...uhhh how 'bout.... C Super Locrian)


You could also break it down into triads

Db mi (C#mi)

Db- b9
Fb- 3
Ab -(G#) #5

EbMinor

Eb- #9
Gb -b5
Bb -b7

Etc.........

Or combine 2 of these triads for a hexatonic altered (pentatonic work also) then the modes of ...on and on.I don't think theres one short cut but experimenting till you find whats comfortable to you..This is a hell of a lot of work and the greats all differ in the approach since there are so many...good luck climbin the mountain.

BUTCH


Dear God...please save me from your followers...Amen.
#388940 - 09/15/02 07:22 PM Re: Modes  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Graham Henderson (D) Offline
Graham Henderson (D)  Offline

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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Esperance. West Australia
I mode the lawn yesterday Guys. Does that count?
What about" I don't play like Mister Liberace Mike? gets rid of the added A as in aunt.
School was never this much fun. Well it was but every time i dropped lines like this I got the cuts. Got to like it too when we had a teacher called Miss Nekline.
Regards.
Graham

------------------
http://www.songramp.com/homepage.ez?Who=grahamhenderson

#388941 - 09/16/02 02:45 AM Re: Modes  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Well, I didn't read the GP article, but I think I get it. The chromatic nature of the melodic minor gives you all the possible alterations of the dominant.

Making it minor also gives you the half step from 2 to 3. 7 to 8 is the alteration either melodic or harmonic minor gave you. 7 to 8 is the same as #5 to 6 when looking at it as based on la(6).

Add this to the lydian and you get, for example, in C: C Eb E F# G which,if you call it Gb, is some kind of hybrid major-diminished chord (or tone cluster for the Piston crowd). Play that on an organ with a leslie and it's beatnik heaven.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388942 - 11/12/02 04:57 AM Re: Modes  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 21
keyplyr Offline
Casual Observer
keyplyr  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 21
.
Chart of Common Modes




------------------
If you dig Jazz visit
A Passion for Jazz!

#388943 - 11/12/02 10:49 AM Re: Modes  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Kyplyr,

Very fine indeed! One thing I do with my guitar students is to play modes the way they are usually introduced:

12345678 23456712 34567123 etc.

then I move them to

12b3456b71 etc. through each mode in each key.

This chart lays it out beautifully. Very useful,thanks.

Mike

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388944 - 11/12/02 12:50 PM Re: Modes  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 395
Hobart Offline
Serious Contributor
Hobart  Offline
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 395
somewhere west of the Mississi...
Hi folks!

Some years back, I thought I wanted to get more into jazz. There was a guy around here who was a very talented jazz guitarist. Couldn't play rock n roll for crackers, but a good jazz player.

He tried to teach me a few things and the first thing he laid on me was stop thinking in terms of the Aeolian, Dorian, Phrygian etc and just go by the numbers. I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII.

Thinking of the modes in this fashion more closely correlates with how we think of chord progressions anyway. Even so, I still couldn't get it. He's say play the II scale against this progression and I'd go "huh?".

A couple of years later, I was still trying to learn the darn things when I hit on something that worked for me. I recognized a few patterns that helped me get them into my fingers. A few years ago, I put up a website for other people having trouble with modes. http://www.geocities.com/modalman2000 It was my first attempt at using Flash as a web authoring tool, so it's pretty rudimentary - someday I'll redo it, but it's functional for the moment and gets the point across. Of course it's meant strictly for guitarists.

What was I talking about? I forget...

Oh. I was going to say learning the modes definitely opens up a world of improvisational possibilities. But I have found that in the end, you can really play just about any note you want to over any chord or progression. What makes it good are the choices you make. The idea is to get to a point where you can play what hear in your head.

ramble ramble ramble...

hobes


hobes

"Every time I sit down to write a lyric, when I stand up I feel three pounds lighter" - Alan Jay Lerner
#388945 - 11/12/02 04:01 PM Re: Modes  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 21
keyplyr Offline
Casual Observer
keyplyr  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 21
.
mike, hobart

Indeed, use a perspective that best suits your understanding/purpose. However, like most everything else, a wholistic approach servers to a broader understanding, thus a more versitle approach.

The mC, mD, mE, etc down the left side of the chart translates to what you're saying. So, since we are in root C, if you were to play... say mA starting on A and continuing diatonic C scale (using only notes found in the C scale) it would be an Aeolian mode. Dig?

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If you dig Jazz visit
A Passion for Jazz!

#388946 - 11/13/02 12:23 AM Re: Modes  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
I dig that crazy chart!

I'm old enough to remember beatniks.

A beatnik went into a restuarant and asked for a piece of pie.

The waitress said, "Sir, the pie is gone."

The beatnik said, "Give me some of that crazy pie."

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Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388947 - 11/13/02 03:59 AM Re: Modes  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 21
keyplyr Offline
Casual Observer
keyplyr  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 21
.
Getting a bit deeper, a mode is an incarnation of a scale in which a certain note is taken as the root. Thus, each scale has as many different modes as it has different tones.

In common usage, the major scale and the melodic minor scale are regarded as 'given' and the scales constructed with other notes as the root are called modes. The modes of the major scale have names (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Locrian); these names were applied in the Renaissance and have no relationship to the Greek originals.

Some of the melodic minor scale's modes have names in today's theory: mode 3, the augmented major 7th; mode 4, the lydian dominant; mode 6, the half-diminished; mode 7, the altered.

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If you dig Jazz visit
A Passion for Jazz!

#388948 - 11/15/02 11:48 PM Re: Modes  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 395
Hobart Offline
Serious Contributor
Hobart  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 395
somewhere west of the Mississi...
Yeah...it's just easier for me to remember EbIV scale or C#II instead of C#Dorian or whatever.

I think in the end though, you should learn this stuff well enough that you forget it. I don't think about what scale I'm playing anymore - I'm after an idea. A concept. Just a note nuzzled into a corner of time. In the best of times, I'm just playing and not thinking at all... [Linked Image]

That's the best.

hobes


hobes

"Every time I sit down to write a lyric, when I stand up I feel three pounds lighter" - Alan Jay Lerner
#388949 - 03/10/06 05:18 PM Re: Modes  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Here's an oldie to bump for Canaryislandsguy.

Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388950 - 04/01/06 08:04 PM Re: Modes  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
I'm bumping this for Duke, we talk about the different minor scales in the middle somewhere.

Mike


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#1010630 - 06/02/13 09:53 PM Re: Modes [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,208
Brian Austin Whitney Online content
Brian Austin Whitney  Online Content


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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 18,208
Indianapolis, IN USA
Hey Dunbar, you should some more of these!


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