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#388810 - 08/18/02 03:33 PM Chord names  
Joined: Apr 2001
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

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Nashville Tennessee
Dont' know the name of that chord in your new song? Post it here. Let us know the notes, bottom to top, in the chord. Also, let us know three other things: the name of the chord before it, the name of the chord after it, and the key of the song.

Many chords have more than one name, so we can have a good debate here about the best name for your chord.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388811 - 08/22/02 08:49 PM Re: Chord names  
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TrumanCoyote Offline
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TrumanCoyote  Offline
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I always just called it the "Purple Haze" chord. It is (lowest note first):
E
E
G#
D
G

Is it E7 sharp 9? But there is no B in it.

And, of course, in the key of D, it is the famous "Taxman" chord.

#388812 - 08/23/02 01:50 AM Re: Chord names  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


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Nashville Tennessee
Truman,

The old "Purple Haze" chord is an E seven augmented nine. Your name is fairly correct.

As far as the missing B goes, lot of larger chords leave out notes (especially on the guitar), If you're going to leave one out, the fifth is a decent choice. The root is fairly important, the third makes it major or minor, the seventh helps define it as being in the key of the root, and the sharp nine is the "money" note.

Just for fun, try playing it in a different inversion...like put the sharp nine lower and put the third up above the seventh. The whole character of the chord changes, same notes, different order.

I've heard the brain can only track five things at one time, tops, so we tend to group larger numbers of things. We hear extended chords as two different chords played at the same time. We hear this chord kind of like an E major chord on the bottom with a G drone chord on the top. (notice both the E and G chords normally have B's in them, the note we can leave out...it's implied from two directions.)

Great chord, the E7+9 (E seven augmented nine) Try it with the B, it sounds nice and thick.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388813 - 08/24/02 02:32 PM Re: Chord names  
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Larry Williams Offline
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Santa Clarita, CA USA
Yeah, the ol' 7#9 chord...great "color" chord. It's also used a lot in blues for the turnaround (V chord).

------------------
Larry
www.audibleresponse.com

#388814 - 08/24/02 03:03 PM Re: Chord names  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


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Yeah, it has a cool discordant yet "static" sound, like some sort of a perverted, mutant six/nine chord LOL.

I haven't heard the song lately, but wasn't the 7aug9 used on the intro and turn around in the Atlanta Rhythm Section's remake of their own hit (under the name of the Classics IV) "Spooky"?


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388815 - 08/25/02 02:23 PM Re: Chord names  
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Larry Williams Offline
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I can't think of the melody for Spooky off-hand. Can you hum a few bars? [Linked Image], but wasn't the Atlanta Rhythm Section the one who did "So Into You"?

The syncopated hook/turnaround used a 7#9 chord ("So into you, so into me...") and the rest of the song was a minor blues progression if memory serves me right.



------------------
Larry
www.audibleresponse.com

#388816 - 08/25/02 02:51 PM Re: Chord names  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


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Larry,

I'll hum it into my Duntools program that converts sound to numbers...here goes:

65656612b3b321216

Sound right? Spooky. The Atlanta Rhythm section used the 7#9 for So Into You, and I think, for their version of Spooky too.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388817 - 08/25/02 07:53 PM Re: Chord names  
Joined: May 2002
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3daveyO3 Offline
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Buffalo, NY USA
Hey Guys,
Sitting here with guitar in hand and thinking that the spelling of the chord is wrong. Shouldn't the aug 9 be spelled out as an F## ? Because 2 in E Maj is F# an octave higher is a 9th and aug would be a half step higher which is G, but in chord spelling is really F##. Just a wunderin'
davey O.

#388818 - 08/25/02 08:56 PM Re: Chord names  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


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Nashville Tennessee
Davey,

Exactly! In the key of E, the G would be a flatted third...the sharped nine (nine is the same as a two, the two being F#) would be F##, also notated as Fx. Welcome to the world of music theory, We can hold a Riverdance of angels on a pin.

Practically speaking, we wouldn't call it an Emajor/minor seventh...nor would we call it an E7addb10...these names are too redundant for music theory (and that's saying a LOT!) So, when we're told EEG#DG, we bow to the sound, rather than the spelling of the chord and: voila (which is the larger instrument in the voilin family) E7aug9.

BTW, Two names of the same note are called "enharmonic equivalents", according to traditional western theory.

P.S.
A nine isn't a two an octave higher, it's what you call a two when a three is present. If you have, for example, C D E G, That would be a Cadd9; if you have C D G, That would be a Csuspended2. The two suspends you from knowing whether it is a major or minor chord, with the nine you know it's major or minor, it just sounds thicker.

[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 08-25-2002).]


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388819 - 08/25/02 11:26 PM Re: Chord names  
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 704
3daveyO3 Offline
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Buffalo, NY USA
Mike,
Actually,I have a 2 year degree in music, so theory isn't all that new to me. So I know about enharmonic equivalency and such. I still struggle with things like chords subs and other things, but overall I have a pretty good grasp. I have to not necessarily disagree but rather differ with you in what I was taught about intervals. I was taught that for things like 9ths and 11ths, you take the degree of the scale, ie the 2nd, and add seven = a 9th. Hence the root note being an octave etc. Obviously you don't have to voice them an octave higher, but in some situations like the chord that Truman used as an example, having a G next to an F##(G#) is a tight and very dissonant interval of a minor 2nd. So by playing one of them an octave higher, it gives the interval a bit of breathing room so to speak. Some things work better on the piano than guitar because of the ability to spread out the voicing. BTW, I love to use sus chords. Something I picked up from being a Pete Townshend fan. This is great. I love to talk theory because it makes you think about how you're playing and how the notes you use work together. Whoever started this board deserves a pat on the back.
davey O.

#388820 - 08/25/02 11:44 PM Re: Chord names  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
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Nashville Tennessee
Kaboom,

I don't think we're differing at all. A two is a nine, a four is an eleven, a six is a thirteen.

Yes, this is fun. I haven't thought about this stuff since nineteen fifty nine. Of course right now it's twenty two forty six.

BTW
Kudos to Brian who came up with this board.



[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 08-25-2002).]


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388821 - 08/26/02 02:43 AM Re: Chord names  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,822
Larry Williams Offline
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Santa Clarita, CA USA
Interesting perspectives. I have my own which is probably no better or worse than anyone elses - just maybe a bit different.

I was taught that the upper chordal tones came into use beginning in the later Romantic period (1860+) and were used extensively during the Impressionistic period (Debussy, Ravel) until approximately 1910. I've analyzed a number of the Impressionist works in great detail and there were definitely quite a few of what we might call jazz chords today. These guys were the first ones to use a LOT of 9ths, 11ths and 13ths and chords we today might call G/A or a 9sus4; I even found a few add9 chords in Debussy's "Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun". The first use of these "terribly dissonant" chord tones in Romantic period music was in the upper registers above the triadic tones played by other orchestral instruments. For that reason, they were called 9ths in traditional analysis instead of 2nds (for instance). At least, that's how I remember the original theory from my history courses.

Later on, these more complex chord tones developed into common usage by swing era jazz players and even more so during the bebop and cool jazz periods.

I don't think anyone asked these original composers what THEY called those chords, so I can just imagine some graduate student Musicologist at the time probably having a conversation with his professor: "I dunno, whadda you wanna call it? Hey, I know...let's just call it a 9th chord since it's up high, OK?" Except this was probably done in either a very formal British accent, or some French dialect. [Linked Image]

And someone agreed with him and wrote it in a book...and here we are...



------------------
Larry
www.audibleresponse.com

#388822 - 09/04/02 05:38 PM Re: Chord names  
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songman Offline
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Sunland, Ca
Dennis Yost and the Claaaics Four, Yeah, that was a 7#9 even got your diminished chord somewhere in that tune, Great Band of Dudes! The 7#9 chord is a great dominant sound as is the 7flat 9, Who was that guitar player? Barry Beckett? I know I'm wrong, Beckett, Bailey, he's a fine, fine player! Tj


TJ Sullivan
#388823 - 09/04/02 08:46 PM Re: Chord names  
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TrumanCoyote Offline
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TrumanCoyote  Offline
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Bailey. And J. R. Cobb, I think.

#388824 - 09/04/02 09:57 PM Re: Chord names  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Bob Young (D)  Offline
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OK..time for a bob young old guy guitar player story that has a finish !

In 1961 and '62 I was living in Hollywood.
My mom had a secretarial service and thru a series of happenstances I met Steve Allen..
He was doing the Steve Allen show from the little theatre on Vine Street right next to the old Hollywood Ranch Market.
I was just a kid guitar player playing surf music and Steve introduced me to Herb Ellis who was playing guitar in the TV show band.
Also in the band was Ray Brown (rest his soul) Frank Rosselini..Mousie Alexander(also both dead..jeeez I'm old)..lotsa great players.
Anyway..Herb and Jack Marshall (a famous Hollywood session guitarist) were trying to put together a lesson book for rock and roll guitar players who wanted to make the jump into Jazz.
I became the "guinea pig" for the stuff they were trying to work out..in exchange Herb gave me lessons in fingerboard harmony and lots of practical little be-bop tricks many of which I still use today.
It was also then that I developed an affinity for the ES-175 which had been Herbs guitar of choice for many years.
I got to meet great guitarists like Jimmy Raney, Barney Kessel and Tal Farlow..all of whom were good friends of Herbs.
Imagine me..a white-faced kid sitting there playing "Oh Lady B. Goode" with Herb Ellis, Ray Brown and Mousie Alexander as my rhythm section...wow..what I wouldn't give to relive some of that !

Any way...Herb taught me a cool little trick that won him drinks from other guitar players for years !
It's a six string diminished chord that uses 4 fingers and not a barre chord.
He called it "the spider" and I'll describe it as best I can.
You start (I'll do this in G diminished) with the standard 4 finger diminished form on the top 4 strings..You old guys will know which one I mean..

Strike the first string..then the second..then as you're striking the third and fourth strings you lift your fourth finger which was on the third fret 1st string and move it to the 4th fret of the 5th string..at the same time moving the second finger which was on the second fret of the 2d string to the third fret of the 6th
string...if you do this as you are striking the 3d and 4th strings then just hit 5th and six strings and BINGO a six string diminished


when you get smooth at this it really does look like a spider..hence the name !

Hope this makes sense..it's cool to be on stage and watch folks as you do this..it's an eye-popper I promise !

Bob

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 09-04-2002).]

#388825 - 09/04/02 10:23 PM Re: Chord names  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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Bob,

That's a marvelous story. What a great experience for you.

I've always had a deep respect and admiration for Steve Allen (a very underappreciated musician himself). His Aunt Rose and Uncle Charlie were friends of my grandmother. We never got to meet him, but my family all loved him.

I'm "playing" the spider on my arm right now, a great chord with a great story!


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388826 - 09/05/02 12:17 AM Re: Chord names  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Bob Young (D)  Offline
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You know Mike..the real finish to that story is what a small world it is..

Many years later..about 1982 or '83 my jobbing band had begun to do very well in Chicago society circles.

I needed a solo violin for a gig and got the name of an older guy..John Frigo.
It turned out that John got his start in show business with Paul Whiteman as a bass player..then moved on to Jimmy Dorseys band where he played bass thru the early and mid 40's.
Later he formed a group "The Softwinds" a trio..the members were John..Ray Brown and Herb Ellis !(almost forgot Lou Carter..piano player who did alot of dates when Ray was doing something else..when Lou was there John played bass..when Ray was there John played violin..Billie Holliday and many others recorded several of the songs written by the Softwinds.."Detour Ahead"..Billie did it..Stan Kenton..lots of folks..also " I told You I Love You, Now
get Out!"..done by everybody from Woody Herman to Cybil Shepherd !)
They gigged all over the Midwest and West thru the late 40's and early 50's.
Then John came off the road to become the "fiddle" player on the National Barn Dance..a radio show out of Chicago that actually pre-dated the Grand Old Opry.
When Herb and Barney Kessel and Charlie Byrd went on the road in the 80's as "Guitars Galore" John and I went to Jazz Showcase in Chicago and I was reintroduced to Herb who remembered me and signed the ES 175 that I had at the time.
About a year later Ray came thru town with I think Wynton Kelly (piano player) and signed the same guitar.
Herb is very sick these days..he's been fighting alcohol abuse for many years..Barney Kessell is also very ill and uninsured and recently had to sell off several of his old guitars.
John Frigo is 88 and in great health and will be playing at my daughters wedding on Oct. 27th.
He tours all over the world and was the replacement for Jon-Luc-Ponty at the North Sea Jazz festival last year or the year before when Jon got ill.(maybe 3 years ago..my memory is not so good sometimes)
I was so fortunate to get to meet all those guys when I was just a green kid..it really taught me alot about integrity in music..and many of the lessons I learned back then I still use today !
There was another guy hanging around Herb in those days..he had just come to Hollywood and was making a real name for himself as a session guy..years later I had the pleasure of sharing stages with him in Phoenix..kid named Glenn Campbell !
Sonny Bono was doing session work then too..actually Barney Kessell did alot of Rock sessions too..Tommy Tedesco was just starting out...jeeez...so many talented guys !

Bob (strolling down memory lane) Young



[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 09-04-2002).]

#388827 - 09/05/02 09:19 AM Re: Chord names  
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Jean Bullock Offline
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Anaheim, CA, USA
Have I said that I love this post and forum? I am learning so much and enjoying the stories.

JeanB


Please visit my facebook EZ3D PopUps for free papercraft templates. Great for beginners of all ages.

Favorite Sites:
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#388828 - 09/05/02 09:33 AM Re: Chord names  
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Great stories, Bob. Was Gus Bivona in the Allen band at that time? Steve used to tease Gus on the air a lot. I think Steve thought Gus' name was comical (it was!). And didn't Frank Devol hang out with that crowd, too?

#388829 - 09/05/02 10:16 AM Re: Chord names  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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Bob,

Wonderful memories! You should write a book.

Small world department:

My friend who owned the Gibson Howard Roberts model I mentioned in the Arch Top post at the Guitar forum, was a man named Ray Tate. In the 70's, Ray and I jammed with John Frigo.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388830 - 09/06/02 03:55 PM Re: Chord names  
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songman Offline
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Spider In Friggin' DEED! Too Much! Bob, you're the KING!
As a student of Bop, n' Blues n' Big Band Chord techniques, that's just too cool! Was there an Augmented 5th called the Cockaroache? Just kidding!! Thanks for Sharing !! TJ


TJ Sullivan
#388831 - 09/18/02 10:15 PM Re: Chord names  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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Wow, Two chords and twenty posts. By the time we get through the chord dictionary, we'll beat the lyric board lol.

Here's another favorite of mine, the min7b5, also known as the half-diminished seventh. It's the third chord in Bluesette. You hear it a lot as a passing chord moving down from a one to a three major in songs like Georgia on My Mind ( Gmaj7 F#m7b5 B7), or Western Auto...I mean Desperado (F#m7b5 B7 Em [sounds suspiciously like Rachmaninoff]). I used it in a song called Moon Full of Blues. Anyone else use it?

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388832 - 09/18/02 11:05 PM Re: Chord names  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Ahhh Mike...Great minds...

I use it in a turnaround in my "Moon" song..

The Same Old Moon in the key of G..

Bm7flat5..E7flat5/Bflat..Am7flat5..Aflat7flat5..resolving to Gmaj7...
I know I could call that E7flat5 over Bflat a Bflat7flat5 but Keyboard guys give me a cooler voicing when I call it an E7..

Sometimes the Bass will play a D against that Aflat finisher..it sounds cool !

Bob

Jeez Mike...we sound like we know what the Hell we're talking about....they're gonna take away all our guitar club privileges !

#388833 - 09/18/02 11:30 PM Re: Chord names  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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Bob,

Turn in your capo.

You've brought up another twist. Voicings. I've always loved to play, for example, an Fm/Bb in the key of C. As an inside joke to my friend, steel player, Mike Daly (Hank Jr, Hayseed Dixie, Gibson Miller Band), whenever we'd read a four minor I'd always play a flat seven on the bass. We'd laugh like crazy and whatever bandleader would think we were musical morons.

Here's one for someone other than Bob (I know you'll get it in a heartbeat lol):

What do you call the Fm/Bb with Bb as the root? With F as the root?

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music

[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 09-18-2002).]


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388834 - 09/19/02 01:52 AM Re: Chord names  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Well...

If I've got your Nashville numbers deciphered correctly..I think we do the same thing....

If we're in..let's say key of C..and an F minor shows up we'll probably go ahead and play the F minor first time around...second time thru it's liable to turn into a Bb9....izzat the same thing ?

(if its one bar of 4/4 we'll split it..2 beats F minor, 2 beats Bb9)

Bob (I'm so cornfuzed) Young

link to "Same Old Moon" below

http://www.soundclick.com/util/streamM3U.m3u?ID=39794&q=Lo (lo-fi)

http://www.soundclick.com/util/streamM3U.m3u?ID=39794&q=Hi (hi-fi or dwnload)



[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 09-19-2002).]

#388835 - 09/19/02 09:07 AM Re: Chord names  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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Hey Bob,

Well, here's the rub: if you look at your garden variety Fminor with a Bb in the bass, it looks like an Fminor with an add 11 with the 11 in the bass.

However, if you analyze it (I've always thought it was funny that only the anal analyze) with the Bb in the root, then there is no third. Bb F Ab C...no D or Db which could make it an incomplete Bb9 or a Bb7sus2.

But, I go back to your original statement. If I write it as an Fminor with the Bb in the bass, I'm more likely to get the voicing right.

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388836 - 09/19/02 10:24 AM Re: Chord names  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Mike...

I wasn't trying to name your chord...
I was referring to that deal about the 4minor chord...

I got a name for your chord...I'm just hodin' onto it for a bit to see if anybody agrees..

Bob

#388837 - 09/19/02 06:29 PM Re: Chord names  
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OK, You two guys are driving me nuts!! I realize the existence of Chord Synonyms to where one chord fingering can be called two (maybe three I dunno) different chords. I can do the math, but does'nt it all relate to the particular chart and orirginal Key signature as to which chord we will call it? Then again I might be missing the point. At any rate, good fodder for thought, Mr. Dunbar's quite right, Bob you should consider writing a book. You're stories here on this board are quite well written in a very personal vein and just touch the heart bubba! I mean if that hack Willie Moseley from the pages of Vintage Guitar Magazine (nothing personal Willie!) has three, maybe four books published of so much dribble, I dunno. I'd find out who his publisher is..... In the meantime I like using the minor 7b5's as a descending a passing chord in Blues turnarounds. All The Best , TJ Sullivan


TJ Sullivan
#388838 - 09/19/02 07:21 PM Re: Chord names  
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Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mike Dunbar:
Bob,

What do you call the Fm/Bb with Bb as the root?
</font>


I'd call it Ab/Bb (or b7/1).

#388839 - 09/19/02 07:46 PM Re: Chord names  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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You're absolutely right Songman..but..in the real world where ya gotta drop a chart in front of keyboard players or guitar players that may not be familiar with what you're looking for in voicings or inversions sometimes you make choices along those lines.

I've got travelling charts for rhythm players that refer to a chord as F#m7b5 for the keys and Am/f# for the guitar player..
That's cos' experience has taught me that even tho the notes are the same..the guys will voice it differently and it'll come out more along the lines of what I'm looking for.

sounds dopey and illogical...but HEY..I'm an illogical dope !

Wish I was in sunny California !

bob

#388840 - 09/19/02 09:47 PM Re: Chord names  
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Couple of chords for ytou guys please.
second fret as fingered.
G C E A# B G.
next one Fouth fret as fingered.
A D F# C B A.
Regards.
Graham

------------------
http://www.songramp.com/homepage.ez?Who=grahamhenderson

#388841 - 09/20/02 06:19 AM Re: Chord names  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Graham..

Hey Cobber !....

How many fingers have you got on that left hand ?

Bob

#388842 - 09/20/02 07:46 AM Re: Chord names  
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Graham Henderson (D) Offline
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Six like any normal person of course Bob.
Fingering for the first is forefinger bridging strings six and five on third fret, middle finger second fret fourth string, Ring finger third fret third string, second string open, first string third fret.
It is a first fret B7th shape moved up one fret and including the sixth string.
I include the sixth string in a B7th most times too to give me a B7th/F#.
I play both of them in the instrumental break on Nondoonya Blues on Soundclick.
Also use the same shape in that on the sixth fret to give me higher E7th. Do the same on the out.
G0 from a first fret E to the sixth fret one then back again.
I like how it sounds. When played well of course.
Take care Cobber.
Graham (real hand full)H
PS . forgot to mention. That six is not counting the thumb of course.
Got another ask to while I'm here. Is a biad a chord that includes on a gay note from time to time? Thanks again. G
------------------
http://www.songramp.com/homepage.ez?Who=grahamhenderson

[This message has been edited by Graham (edited 09-20-2002).]

#388843 - 09/20/02 11:36 PM Re: Chord names  
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Graham,

I'm looking at them as tone clusters. A tone cluster is a group of notes that don't all belong in one key (the most famous tone cluster is the common diminished chord, the fully diminished seventh.)

In the first one, I'd call that a Bb instead of an A#. They sound beautifully twisted to me.

You could perhaps call them a dominant/major seven.

G fifth, C root, E third, Bb dominant seven, B major seven, C fifth...same pattern for the next.

Or perhaps you could call them a Cgraham and a Dgraham.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388844 - 09/21/02 07:28 AM Re: Chord names  
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Graham Henderson (D) Offline
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Thanks Mike. can't claim any originality to them chords.
I got the first one from gery Silverman and Skip James. Skip calls it a c7+7. Or is that a c7-7? I forget. I found the other one by sliding the shape up and down the fret board.
Skip also calles it the lifeblood of blues and I find it a great bridge twix B7 and E. Use it in E minor too.
Use it a lot as my fence post fingers and work dammaged hands don't contribute to barre chords, but i can hold a B7th shape, and use the fore finger on the two top stings to give me the slash bass thing. fat fingers also foul the B string enough that it doesn't clunk in the posisions it doesn't work. Well good enough for my purposes anyway.
When i was using the G-VOX guitar midi bridge, i used to edit them either out or slide them to a compatable note.
Thank Mike. I asked because no musoes I know have ever used them until they saw me using them and liked them.
Regards.
Graham

------------------
http://www.songramp.com/homepage.ez?Who=grahamhenderson

#388845 - 09/21/02 09:53 AM Re: Chord names  
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Graham,

Yeah, most of the blues cats began using it out of convenience. They'd run the B7 chord up one fret, leaving the open B note ring, then they'd run it back down. usually at the end of a turn-around. It would go something like:

E E7 A Am E Cgraham B7

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388846 - 09/21/02 01:52 PM Re: Chord names  
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Graham Henderson (D) Offline
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never tried it with an A minor Mike. Will give it a go.
I sometimes go C7-7 B7 E fro a non final cadance.
Now I can tell the local blokes they just don't cut it as blues cats yet.
Regards.
Graham

------------------
http://www.songramp.com/homepage.ez?Who=grahamhenderson

#388847 - 09/22/02 12:09 PM Re: Chord names  
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How about this one. From low to high (on guitar) it is:

C
F#
G
B
E

The F# pushing against the G is lovely.

I use it as a 4 chord in "Moon River" in G.

Gmaj7 Em7 C(?) Gmaj7
C(?) Gmaj7 Adim D7 etc.....

What is its name?



[This message has been edited by TrumanCoyote (edited 09-22-2002).]

#388848 - 09/22/02 09:35 PM Re: Chord names  
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Truman,

Pretty chord, I'm whistling it now. Since you already call it a 4 in G, I'll tackle it with the C in the root.

If you play all the notes at once, I'd call it a Cmaj7add#11. C...root; F#...sharp eleven; G five; B seven (major seven); and E third.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if you play it as an arpeggio, slowly strumming it from bass to treble on the guitar. Then, I'd call it a C major seven with the F# being a passing tone moving to the fifth. The F# is in the key of G and it moves elegantly to the G, the fifth of the Cmaj7 chord.

Any other ideas on this?

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#388849 - 09/23/02 12:19 AM Re: Chord names  
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Graham Henderson (D) Offline
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This one makes the CGrahamth look a piece of cake Don't it Mike.
I fiddled with it and decided it was played in appegio as I couldn't get a sound I liked out of it in a stum.
Didn't come up with a name though.
Regards.
Graham

------------------
http://www.songramp.com/homepage.ez?Who=grahamhenderson

#388850 - 09/23/02 05:23 PM Re: Chord names  
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I use it in "Crazy." I also use a MinMaj7, which has a nice quality to it.

Andy


Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mike Dunbar:

Here's another favorite of mine, the min7b5, also known as the half-diminished seventh.
...
Anyone else use it?
</font>

#388851 - 09/24/02 12:50 PM Re: Chord names  
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Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mike Dunbar:
Truman,


However, I wouldn't be surprised if you play it as an arpeggio, slowly strumming it from bass to treble on the guitar.
</font>


Precisely, Mike. Good call.

#576915 - 01/19/08 03:34 AM Re: Chord names [Re: TrumanCoyote]  
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Brian Austin Whitney Online content
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I thought I'd bring back some golden oldies! = )

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney


#577309 - 01/20/08 05:17 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
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What a fun read! That spider chord...tres cool!

I like to use the "Hendrix chord" when playing "Sittin' On the Dock of the Bay", just after the line "...watchin' the tide roll away". Sounds very nice there.

#579002 - 01/25/08 02:01 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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You know what's interesting is that hendix chord still lives on even in popular music. Listen to "Under the Bridge" By Red Hot Chili Peppers it's the chord at the end of the verse right before the chorus. What a sweet ring it has.
Derek


All the worlds a song and all the people Singers

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pageartist.cfm?bandID=740346
#579071 - 01/25/08 06:06 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Derek Hines]  
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Mark Kaufman Offline
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Originally Posted by Derek Hines
You know what's interesting is that hendix chord still lives on even in popular music. Listen to "Under the Bridge" By Red Hot Chili Peppers it's the chord at the end of the verse right before the chorus. What a sweet ring it has.
Derek
I've forgotten how to name chords...but I think the highest note of that chord is a half step lower than the highest note of the Hendrix chord. So the RHCP chord sounds prettier than the Hendrix chord.

#579230 - 01/26/08 07:35 AM Re: Chord names [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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I recall metal musicians I grew up with doing a lot of power chords and appregrios.
Can't finger like that on my beat up sixties guiar. I like to dig into the strings and if I ever consider being a performing musician, I can fly on these modern guitars from building up limber in my fingers, cause' I'm not too coordinated otherwise.
But I notice that a lot of these weird, classic rock songs have a lot of diads and triads, fretted slightly off the major scale.
I used to like transposing metal songs to my synth and making songs based on that. Kind of made it dark and gothy. Almost strangely harmonious.
I did an old gospel folk inspired recording that I came up with from practicing Pink Floyd's Hey You (off their album The Wall).
I don't have a 12 string and had to open tune to get the sound that more closely approximated what I was looking for.
Not for a professional setting, but I have come up with a lot of weird sounding chords that way.

#579231 - 01/26/08 08:44 AM Re: Chord names [Re: mattbanx]  
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Calvin Online content
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Hello !

Just wanted to jump in here and say I'm enjoying the stories & the knowledge from this thread.
Very informative.

Calvin


http://www.soundclick.com/bands/9/calvinstewart

#579243 - 01/26/08 11:08 AM Re: Chord names [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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You know Mark

I think your right it's in a different position for sure. And it definitly sounds prettier. It almost reminds me of surf music when they'd hit that one chord then use the whammy to drop it down a little. I am not sure what chord it is but Dick Dale seemed to use it quite a bit.
Derek


All the worlds a song and all the people Singers

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pageartist.cfm?bandID=740346
#579259 - 01/26/08 01:14 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Derek Hines]  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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One of the Dick Dale "whammy" chords was a minor add nine, sometimes in the second inversion, often played as an arpeggio, then "whammied."


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#579266 - 01/26/08 01:32 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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To name chords, you need to know the keys. These "flash cards" are good for folks who have a basic knowledge, but want to know all the key signatures by memory:

http://www.musicards.net/music_flash_cards/key_signature_flashcards.html

Then you will quite often have a choice as to which note in the chord you designate as the root or "name" note. Once you get past triads, every chord can have more than one name note.

You can even find triads that function as chords other than their obvious name note. For example take the triad: C E G. Well that's a good old C major chord, but throw it in first inversion, E G C, and it can function as a minor sixth (E G B C...only without the B). So there's a case to be made that any chord has more than one name.

Again, though, if you're interested in being able to name chords with some traditional precision, you need to learn the keys.

Here's another good tool for someone with a decent basic knowledge, the Key Trainer:

http://www.musictheory.net/trainers/html/id83_en.html

Here's a good, basic explanation of keys for someone starting at the beginning:

http://www.empire.k12.ca.us/capistrano/Mike/capmusic/Key%20Signatures/key_signatures.htm

A graph of scales and triads:
http://jmdl.com/howard/music/keys_scales.html

And here's my explanation of scale and key, relating to the number system, as written for the JPF newsletter some years ago:
http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=388672&page=2#Post388672

Here's a downloadable MP3 tutorial on scales and triads:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=41132&songID=5172396

And here's one on extended chords:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=41132&songID=5172384

Don't lose your keys!

Mike


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#579268 - 01/26/08 01:45 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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Derek Hines Offline
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Hey Mike

Thanks for the information on those whammy chords. That sounds about right from what I remember. (Which is very little lol). Also thanks for the key and chord charting websites. Those look like great resources I'll have to check those out.
Derek


All the worlds a song and all the people Singers

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pageartist.cfm?bandID=740346
#579283 - 01/26/08 03:13 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Derek Hines]  
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That info really brings me back Mike.
I had chord books like that I lost over the years.
I hav'nt been able to come across many through the years that were as much in depth into diads and triads outside of some in rock bands song books.
It is almost like a new experience seeing that again.

#591123 - 02/28/08 07:04 PM Re: Chord names [Re: mattbanx]  
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Hey Mike,

What's the chord formed by the first 4 notes in "Beauty and the Beast?"

Or, in a different inversion, D - Eb - G - Bb?

Can't figure that one out... bass is in G, but it may not be the root.

Thanks!

#591127 - 02/28/08 07:59 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Linda Sings]  
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Here is a very good link for guitar chords

http://www.8notes.com/guitar_chord_chart/

There is another one for piano

http://www.8notes.com/piano_chord_chart/

#591172 - 02/28/08 09:48 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Linda Sings]  
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Originally Posted by Linda Adams
Hey Mike,

What's the chord formed by the first 4 notes in "Beauty and the Beast?"

Or, in a different inversion, D - Eb - G - Bb?

Can't figure that one out... bass is in G, but it may not be the root.

Thanks!


I'll have to give it a listen, but it certainly would have the characteristics of a G minor chord (G-Bb-D), especially if the bass is playing G. In a most minor scales, you also have a flat 6th (Eb) as a natural scale tone, which would make it simply a non-chord tone. Maybe Mike has a different take on it...



#591190 - 02/28/08 11:00 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Larry Williams]  
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Linda Sings Offline
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So... some sort of Gmin variation? OK. If it matters, the song it's in is in Bb.

I have a piano chord dictionary, but unless I can find an online source with a "reverse lookup" feature, it's been impossible to find this one just browsing.

Thanks for the links though, Jim!

Linda

#591255 - 02/29/08 02:28 AM Re: Chord names [Re: Linda Sings]  
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Hey Linda, the sheet music I have for Walt Disney's "Beauty and the Beast" has E G B C as the first four notes. It has "Tale as old as..." E G B C. The whole first phrase is: "Tale as old as time"...E G B C down to F. Which as a melody move you from a C chord, with the melody supplying a major seven, to an F chord with the melody as the root. In numbers, it's 3 5 7 1 4

Now, for D Eb G Bb (playing detective) in Bb, it is 3 4 6 1. In Ab it is #4 5 7 2. In Eb it is 7 1 3 5. I'm not seeing a good pattern, unless it's not the melody but accompaniment?

But to answer the chord it forms: in Bb it forms the Gminb13 as Larry is suggesting; or the Ebmaj7 unusually with the major seven in the bass (if it's not a jump down from the D to the Eb? perhaps with the D and Eb as pick up notes and the G being the first note of the melody?); or the Bb......///////jkjp]eoia-]!!!!!!!!!! Hold everything!! You said "Different inversion" Then it IS definitely an Ebmaj7, you're in the key of Eb, and I'll bet you that the notes of the melody, in order, are: G Bb D Eb, 3 5 7 1...same as my 3 5 7 1 in the key of C. And I'll bet the next note in the melody is an Ab.

It's an Ebmaj7. You're not in the key of Bb, you're in the key of Eb (is the key signature Bb Eb Ab? I'll bet it is...gee I'm betting a lot these days, maybe I have a gambling addiction...better call Montel...no, he's on reruns...maybe the government will help me?)

I really need to get a life. Maybe a hobby? Collecting stamps? No I'd obsess about that too.

All the Best,
Mike


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#591289 - 02/29/08 03:54 AM Re: Chord names [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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No, the melody goes D - Eb - G - Bb (in 8ths). Minor, minor key.
But I noticed if I start at G and play up - Bb - D - Eb that it plays "Beauty and the Beast." Which distressed me a little. Urgh! So, nevermind that reference - phooey. smile I'm off somewhere.

And no - it's 2 flats (Bb, correct?), and minor, which means it's not Bb after all, it's, uh, G minor?? There's one Ab accidental in this little piece, but it's clearly an accidental.

And no, the next note in the melody is back down to D (half note/downbeat).
Then D - Eb - G - Bb (in 8ths)- down to C (half note).
D - Eb - G - F (8th, 8th, dotted 8th, 16th)- down to D (half note).

Remember, I'm not predictable, Mike - I didn't know most songs only have 3 chords till last year. I play with the whole box of Tinkertoys. LOL.

So.... now that I figured out I'm really in Gmin... I bet it's a Gmin b13 like you first said, and is a variation on Chord I in the scale. smile Which isn't in my chord dictionary.

It's just a little instrumental Etude, anyway, but I like it. It was born last night. I *love* minor stuff.

Linda


EDIT: A-HA! I found EbMaj7 in my chord dictionary - that's exactly the chord I described. Yay! But I *am* in Gmin, with no Ab.

Last edited by Linda Adams; 02/29/08 04:21 AM.
#591291 - 02/29/08 03:58 AM Re: Chord names [Re: Linda Sings]  
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Linda Sings Offline
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BTW, what do I win? You lost your bet - twice!
Huh, huh, huh???
smile
Linda

#591302 - 02/29/08 05:12 AM Re: Chord names [Re: Linda Sings]  
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OK, so it only reminds you of Beauty and the Beast, yeah it's similar. You win the honor of having proved me wrong. Stand in line for your prize. It's a long, long line. smile

Gminb13 it is.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#591303 - 02/29/08 06:06 AM Re: Chord names [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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Linda Sings Offline
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Nah, if I'm gonna wait that long I'd better be in line for a ride at Disneyland. grin

On to the mystery... why doesn't my Alfred Chord Dictionary have that one listed...? [I spent a whole whopping five bucks on the thing, so I wouldn't have to bug the resident theory experts anymore! And what's the first thing I do? Write a song with yet another weird and un-nameable (by me) chord.]

Oh well, we can chalk that one up to Unexplained Mysteries of the Universe. smile Thanks, Mike!

Linda

#591444 - 02/29/08 06:05 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Linda Sings]  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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They don't list it because it fits so well as an Ebmaj7, that there's very little reason to call it something else. As a Gmin add b13, it's almost a tone cluster. That flat thirteen, or flat six,or sharp five, is just so discordant with the five in the chord, that it would rarely be used in polite company smile

Now, if you separate the Eb from the D by an interval of a major seventh, then the ear is not as "jarred." Then, also, there's more reason to call it an Ebmaj7 chord. Again, when you have chords with five notes, that spell so perfectly a certain chord name, even though it acts as another chord because of the leading of the notes and the bass note, most folks would still call it by the name that fits it the most. It's just for convenience and good communication. If I tell a piano player to play me and Ebmaj7, she'll jump right on it, if I tell her to play a Gmin add flat thirteen, she might take a few seconds to figure it out. Fow quick reading, use the most common chord name.

What? You won't wait nine or ten measly hours for HONOR! What's this world coming to?

Mike


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#618852 - 05/22/08 07:50 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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Tony A Offline
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Hey Mike, can you help me with this one,

C
G
Db
D
G

I play it in a song "Why Can't We" which is on the MP3 feedback
forum but don't know what its called.

Tony.




#619151 - 05/23/08 02:52 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Tony A]  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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Tony,

Without checking your MP3, I'm guessing that the Db and D are not played either at the same time or in the same octave. Most likely, these are played as an arpeggio, perhaps letting the notes ring into each other.

Depending on the context (the chords before and after this), the C and G seem to suggest some sort of C chord, but the Db and D (flat nine and nine) are unusual.

Playing it with C in the bass going C G Db D G, it sounds like a G chord with C in the bass, moving with what I'd call a C# to a D. If it's played as an arpeggio, it has a "Lydian Chromatic" feel to it a la George Russell.

Playing it retrograde of that: G D Db C G gives it a C chord feel, it has a resolution somewhat similar to "How Dry I Am"

In any case, I wouldn't ordinarily call this a "chord" but rather a tone cluster (if played all at once) or simply an accompaniment. If I absolutely had to call it a chord, it would either be a Csus2addb9 (the D is the suspended second...no third...the Db is the flat nine) or a Gsus2add#11 (the C is the suspended second...no third...the C# is the sharp eleven.) These names (though, I believe, accurate) are so unlikely as to be of much use. They'd scare the guitar player. Better to simply write out the notes as played.

Good one!

Mike


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#619236 - 05/23/08 07:08 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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Tony A Offline
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Hey Mike,

This is great although I could have been more helpful if I
had told you I play Gm before and after this one, as you
say better to write out as played but it is good to be able
to give it a name,

Thanks,

Tony.

#619249 - 05/23/08 07:37 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Tony A]  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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You're welcome, Tony, Probably the Gsus2add#11 (I laugh every time I type that smile ) since it's after the Gm. Nice interesting problem.

All the Best,
Mike


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#633687 - 07/14/08 05:52 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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Originally Posted by 3daveyO3
...in some situations like the chord that Truman used as an example, having a G next to an F##(G#) is a tight and very dissonant interval of a minor 2nd. So by playing one of them an octave higher, it gives the interval a bit of breathing room so to speak...

Davey, I understand what you were saying, but just to clarify an "F double-sharp" or "F##" is a "G" not "G#". As Dunbar eluded too early-on, the sign for "double-sharp" is a slightly modified "x" so "Fx" = "G" (also, as you and Dunbar wrote, this is "enharmonic").

Now that we're clear, I agree 100% that spacing is the key (no pun intended crazy) If you want to have complex colours in your chords, but are not a fan of dissonance, then you need to space them out (i.e., utilize the concept of the "octave"). HOWEVER this will change with the Range of your instrument. Low tones, like Bass and Tenor ranges, need much more spacing because they get muddy very quickly. A Major 3rd (consonant interval) on the low end of the piano is pure mud when compared to a Major 10th (same notes, just farther apart). Conversely, if you are in a high range, you can cram a lot of notes very close together and still get away with it. On piano, generally speaking, anything above "middle C" is high enough for intervals like Major 2, or "suspended 2nds." Below "middle C" you start to see much larger spacing. BTW I think this falls under the category "Voicing" or "Chord Voicing" if you want to research.

#633692 - 07/14/08 06:04 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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Originally Posted by Mike Dunbar
Tony, without checking ... I'm guessing that the Db and D are not played either at the same time or in the same octave. Most likely, these are played as an arpeggio, perhaps letting the notes ring into each other ... it has a "Lydian Chromatic" feel to it a la George Russell ... In any case, I wouldn't ordinarily call this a "chord" but rather a tone cluster (if played all at once)


Mike, very well put. I would also mention Bela Bartok. There are some incredible chords in his music, and many clusters. My favorite is made of two intervals (bottom-top) m2 + m3. Example: F#-G-Bb. Also, E#-F#-A. For those interested, I have a score online you can view (and listen to!) using cluster chords: http://www.sibeliusmusic.com/cgi-bin/user_page.pl?url=nickedelstein
click the menu item "Canons, Chorales, Concert" and then click "The Oglethorpe Adventure." You may have to download an Active-X flash control but it's easy and worth it wink

#633920 - 07/15/08 11:19 AM Re: Chord names [Re: Nick Edelstein]  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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Cool Nick, I had to study some Bartok in college, and worked on his "Mikrokosmos." It was fun to realize so much of his music was used in the old horror films of the '30s.

That m2 m3 sound, to me, is like the melodic minor passage of 5#, 6, 1.

Good Stuff!
Mike



You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#633990 - 07/15/08 02:34 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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Nick Edelstein Offline
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yeah one of the instruments I don't talk about too often is my trombone, I used to play a ton. During college one of my buddies transcribed "Free Variations" from Mikrokosmos, no. 140. I notated it for him (on the computer, from his hand-written scratch) and then a t-bone quartet performed. Man, Bartok is never the same once you've heard it performed by 4 trombones.

I still have the file, and also "Wrestling" (M. no. 108), if you're curious.

#634002 - 07/15/08 02:54 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Nick Edelstein]  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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Yeah, I'd like to hear those, please.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#634983 - 07/19/08 05:51 AM Re: Chord names [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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Split Level Offline
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Linda That chord is Eb 7 th,

you have Eb G Bb thats Eb major and then you have the flated 7th of Eb is the D , its a simple chord very commonly used.

Cant believe any one else has not named it where are you guys coming from.


Have been working at E.M.I. Hayes U.K. in many departments starting as Tea Boy and worked through to A and R, New Artist Management,
Co Writing , with Boy Bands, and some solo acts
I have always played in bands,

SPLIT LEVEL
psuedonymn of course to many thieves and robbers on the web these days
#634988 - 07/19/08 05:59 AM Re: Chord names [Re: Split Level]  
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Split Level Offline
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Yes someone else did see it, but whatever you put in the bass it will change the overal effect a little or a lot.


Play a D major against a B bass
or a C over a D bass and listen to the options that you will find in creating new melodies.

It's what Pro writers do all the time and it's known as Bass Inversions.

Dont believe every thing shown in books i have found many example where they are wrong.

Substitution By Function, I mentioned that ten years ago on this or another board Know one had a clue what it was about.

All pro writers of any distinction use that method.

Read the books by Jack Perricone and Jai Josefs.



Have been working at E.M.I. Hayes U.K. in many departments starting as Tea Boy and worked through to A and R, New Artist Management,
Co Writing , with Boy Bands, and some solo acts
I have always played in bands,

SPLIT LEVEL
psuedonymn of course to many thieves and robbers on the web these days
#634989 - 07/19/08 06:03 AM Re: Chord names [Re: Split Level]  
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Hi Split! Thanks!
We've been calling it an Eb Maj7th for the past few replies here. Though it technically still could be something else.
Anyway. I'm not sure I remember the tune in question anymore - I hope I wrote it down! Yikes.

~sigh~

Linda

#634998 - 07/19/08 07:20 AM Re: Chord names [Re: Linda Sings]  
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Split Level Offline
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Hi Linda,

Yes you are right EbMaj th, of course I was reading D b
in your chord decription (Silly me)

Beautifull Chord Linda, Carpenters used it a lot, I use it when I can on Ballads


Freddie Mercury what an inspiration Linda you have good taste.
He ws the best vocals and the wonderfull songs, that he wrote

Have you read The Biography of Queen ? I saw them in Cornwall when they were called Smile, (Before freddy)


Have been working at E.M.I. Hayes U.K. in many departments starting as Tea Boy and worked through to A and R, New Artist Management,
Co Writing , with Boy Bands, and some solo acts
I have always played in bands,

SPLIT LEVEL
psuedonymn of course to many thieves and robbers on the web these days
#635111 - 07/19/08 06:23 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Split Level]  
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Oh my GOODNESS! You DIDN'T!!! How cool is THAT.
If you could indulge me and tell me all about it... I would so love to hear that story. PM is ok if you want. How were they as Smile? Without Freddie? (Or John!) That was with Tim Staffell then, right?

That was waaaay back. I may not have been born yet. grin

I always thought changing the name from Smile was a good call. LOL.

"Queen" was Freddie's idea all the way - and convinced the other guys in classic "Freddie fashion," by calling them up and telling them each that someone else said it was OK, until they all agreed, "Well, if Roger's fine with it I guess I am," "Well if John says..." "Well, if Brian's OK with it..." etc.

I haven't read that bio - I'm trying to find the "official" sources and just read those - I don't like the ones by some so-n-so just looking to make a buck off some hearsay - but it's hard to tell which is which offhand - and some of the books are hard to find in the U.S.
I have the new photo journal by Mick Rock though. It's very cool. He writes well. It only goes to 1975 though.

Anyway... so I haven't read the bio you mentioned, but I know way more trivia about them than I really ought to. LOL.

I wish they would write a "Hard Day's Write" or "U2 by U2" sort of book.

Oh! And one more piece of trivia - today is Brian May's birthday. smile I can remember it 'cause it's the day after my oldest daughter's.

OK... enough thread-jacking by me... grin but that is very very cool that you got to see them when they were unknown. Thanks for sharing that!

Linda



#638181 - 07/31/08 03:59 AM Re: Chord names [Re: Split Level]  
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Originally Posted by Split Level
... whatever you put in the bass it will change the overal effect a little or a lot ... Play a D major against a B bass or a C over a D bass ... It's what Pro writers do all the time and it's known as Bass Inversions.

I believe this is called "Jazz" wink That D Major with B bass is a.k.a. "B minor 7th" chord. I teach my students this all the time, it's all about overlapping Major and Minor triads. Play a "C" and add an "Eb Major" triad on top, and you wind up with "C minor 7." Or play a C with E minor triad, and you get "C Major 7." Amazing how both chords Eb Major and E Minor, which are dissonant in relation to each other, both work over a "C" note!
Obviously it works vice versa too. Keep going to 9th chords - those are my fave - just two Major triads overlapping (like C Major and G Major).

This is especially usefull when improvising, thinking in terms of arpeggios and modal scales. 11th chords like "C11," which seems complicated to some folks, are just the C Major triad with a Bb Major on top. Just a fun, different way to visualize chords!

#638372 - 07/31/08 06:34 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Nick Edelstein]  
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Nick and Split Level,

I use simple chords and lines to make complex harmonies all the time in the studio. I'll record a simple chord, then on another track, record a different simple chord. The result will a more complex harmony. One of my favorites is to play a C7 on one track and a Dm on another.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#638438 - 08/01/08 12:40 AM Re: Chord names [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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The applications are endless, but mainly it's the concept - or rather, an approach to the abstract concept - of triads (chords). So many folks have difficulty understanding the relationship between chords, scales, intervals, Keys ... in my mind this is just the easiest way to perceive and relay to others.

Mike! C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb = C13 sweet cool

#656465 - 10/01/08 10:19 AM Re: Chord names [Re: Nick Edelstein]  
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wildcrayons Offline
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I found this chord while I was messing around with the guitar--it's not in a song, but I'd love to know what it was!
The notes are X X B D# G# B. It's in the same shape as a Cadd9 on the 8th fret, but down a fret. So, the fingering is XX7897.
Thanks for the help smile

#656472 - 10/01/08 11:48 AM Re: Chord names [Re: wildcrayons]  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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Welcome to JPF, wildcrayons!

Chord names often depend on context, what chord came before and after, because you can use many different names for chords. When I look at one chord by itself, I go for the simplest name.

If I call the G# the root, The B the flatted third, and the D# the fifth, this would be a G#minor.



You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#656474 - 10/01/08 11:54 AM Re: Chord names [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


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Nick,

Yes sir, the triad is the building block of chordal harmony. One cool thing is to stack major triads, using the fifth as the next triad's root. It's the circle of fifths in triads. Then stack major sevenths or ninths and play around with those chords as if they were melody notes.



You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#941902 - 01/23/12 03:33 AM Re: Chord names [Re: TrumanCoyote]  
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Pat Hardy Offline
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Pat Hardy  Offline
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It's an E7#9 . Just because Jimmy doesn't play the B doesn't change the chord. It's an "implied" note.

#941912 - 01/23/12 04:31 AM Re: Chord names [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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Dan Sullivan Offline
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Dan Sullivan  Offline
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MI
I never figured out what the name was for this chord. The G and thin E string are depressed. The other strings are open. It follows a D chord and precedes a C chord. I use it in a song called "Ain't it sad the way a train can let you down." It's the only song I've ever used it in. I'm sure some of you know the name for it. Thanks for your help.


Write from your heart, not what you think others want to hear.

https://dansullivan2.bandcamp.com

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/dansullivan2
#941946 - 01/23/12 02:08 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Dan Sullivan]  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
Mike Dunbar  Offline


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Nashville Tennessee
Pat, there are loads of guitar chords with implied notes. That Hendrix chord being one that is notable (pun intended). I look at it this way. If the missing note can be included without changing the character of the phrase, then it is implied. If adding it changes the character of the phrase, then it must remain missing and the name of the chord should reflect that.

Dan, it depends on which fret the G and thin E are depressed. If, as I suspect, they are fingered on the second fret, and if the low E is not played, the chord is a D6.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#941955 - 01/23/12 02:50 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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Dan Sullivan Offline
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Dan Sullivan  Offline
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MI
Mike, I forgot to say the strings are depressed on the very top (or end) fret, so you are depressing the actual G and E note. I don't hit the other E note on the strum.


Write from your heart, not what you think others want to hear.

https://dansullivan2.bandcamp.com

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/dansullivan2
#942006 - 01/23/12 10:51 PM Re: Chord names [Re: Mike Dunbar]  
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Pat Hardy Offline
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Pat Hardy  Offline
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Excellent point, and I agree. Often, in folk music, say you are in key of C, and the turn around chord is G, as it often is, well, we know quite well that you could add an F to that triad, and the true chord, therefore, is a G7, if articulated more precisely, since the chord occupies the dominant position. So, even if you play just a G triad, the F is implied.

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