JPF Home Page Forums Musician Gear and Techniques Music Theory and Education Nashville numberz sistum !

Sorry to all of my talented friends !

The So called Nashville number system is an archaic language !

The whole world of music speaks in standard notation !
The idea that we should have to learn a separate language just so we can converse musically in Nashville is arrogant and silly !

I guarantee you that when a trade show or corp show or whatever comes to Nashville..they bring charts written in standard notation !

I would suggest that one universal language is enough...let's all learn that one together..it's worked for a long time..it doesn't need to be "fixed" or added on to.

Nashville is not a "special" place that deserves its own language !

Goshs...we may have to transpose this piece up a minor third...land'o' goshen..that means we're actually gonna have to think a little bit !

PERISH THE THOUGHT !

Gee...will that leave us enough time to go fishing ?

Come on guys...let's look at that d flat and read b natural..it's a challenge..but so is ENGLISH for goodness' sakes !

There is a whole world of musicians that find challenge exciting and part of the real fun of music !

Hooray for us !

Bob Young

The library is full of references to "dead" languages....
Nashville Numbers has a place there !


PS for a real treat..call your local music jobber..order the Toby Keith songbook..or the Garth Brooks or whatever..be sure and order it in the Nashville numbers version...lemmee know what they say when they finish laughing !

also..if I bring the band down to Nashville..we may have to pick up a couple of local musicians to fill out the show..our charts will be in standard notation..and ya know what..if it's the back end of a two or three week trip this old throat of mine just might be a little weary, so I may suggest at the run-down that we drop the closer a half step...now..if you Nashville guys don't think you can cut that..I'll just call one of the High schools and get a coupla' kids who can..and you guys can go fishing or golfing or whatever !

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 08-17-2002).]

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 08-17-2002).]

I truly hope you are right because the fact that so many "musicians" can't read music (to me that's like an editor of a paper who can't read)aggravates terribly. The experience I've had with studio musicians locally (northern WV) and in Nashville is that many CAN'T read standard notation so those who have a broader musical ability adapt to them and play/sing by number. It frustrates me because if I have something in particular in mind it requires repetition to teach it. If all musicians read standard notation it would simply require writing it and reading it. Oh, by the way. As a teacher, I offer my services all the time to teach how to read music and, again, I find those who play by ear are happy with what they have and don't desire to change. The music they "hear" is great but they are limited to their own mind's hearing unless you spend valuable time teaching them by rote something you want to have included in the mix.

[This message has been edited by SusanRJones (edited 08-17-2002).]

Thanks for your opinions.

As a musician and educator, I am fairly fluent with music notation. Just this morning I wrote out Sousa's "Stars and Stripes Forever" and Theilmann's "Bluesette", in standard notation, for a guitar student.

A few years back, I was lucky enough to have been hired to write the music for a trade show for the Holiday Inn Corporation. Being both cheap and greedy, I did not hire a copyist, but did all the notation myself. After the first rehearsal two of the songs had to be transposed. That evening I had to rewrite all of the parts (it was a twelve piece band). When we moved from the rehearsals in Chicago to the dress rehearsals in Memphis, one of the singers took ill and had to be replaced. Her tessitura allowed her to sing all the songs in the old key...except for one. Once again I stayed up writing in the hotel room while the band and cast went out to Beale street to listen to some great blues (by musicians, many of whom can't read standard notation.)

Not too long after that, I was blessed to be hired as bandleader for a radio show that featured such artists as Jo Dee Messina, Chad Brock, and Darryl Syngletary. I wrote everything out in number charts. On several of these shows we would have to transpose keys. It was as simple as saying: "Let's take it down to Eb."

The musicians I have been honored to work with here in Nashville come from a variety of musical backgrounds. Many of them can sight read standard notation as well as any symphony player, (I can think of three right now who have played in the Nashville Symphony.) Many can't read standard notation at all. Some can't read the Nashville number system (one excellent keyboard player I know, who has played on many hits and was a member of the Marshall Tucker band doesn't read either system...he's blind. Is he not as much a musician as someone who reads? How about Stevie Wonder or Ray Charles?) None of these people are hired for their ability to read either or any system of musical notation, they are hired because they wail.

Musical notation is not a "language", music is the language as english is a language. Standard notation or numbers are systems of expressing it, as the alphabet or braille are systems for expressing english. In comparing these systems, I find benefits and drawbacks in both, but I find facility in neither to be definitive as to one's musicianship.

Is the presentation of the Nashville number system to a group of musicians arrogant or silly? I don't think so. Will it take over the world. I doubt it. Is it a tool musicians can use to help in their understanding and expression of music. Yes.

Ha! Mike, you wrote the above while I was typing out my own reply below...I think we're on the same page.

++++++++++++++

As a teacher myself, I also teach ALL my students to read standard notation. I don't even like tabulature although it can aid in learning different positions ALONG WITH standard notation.

However, I don't think it's fair to say the Nashville Number System (NNS) doesn't require one to think. The first time I had to read a Nashville chart, I started having to think about things like "What IS the bVIm6 chord in this key" instead of just playing a written Ebm6 chord (for example). Transposing standard charts has become relatively easy for me over the years as I can pretty quickly think a "whole-step down from Ebm".

I think where the NNS really helps is when you have a relatively simple chord structure without a lot of syncopation (most country music) and you need a chart in 5 minutes or less. It IS really quick to write. I believe that's how it started - it's also very easy to transpose...but it should not be a substitute for knowing standard notation.

I know if you CAN'T sight read standard notation REALLY WELL in L.A., you'll never get a call for a 2nd movie, TV or commercial date.

There are some arguments in favor of NOT learning to read well, but the most versatile musicians I know all can read fly specs at 140BPM. I know a couple of world-class drummers that play best when you've written out the entire drum chart for them in standard drum notation (so much for dumb drummer jokes).

I remember a quote (I forget who) by a high profile musician who was asked "Do you read music?", and he replied, "Yes, but not enough to hurt my playin'". This is an example of a false idea of what reading music is all about. It's not a crutch, it's a way to learn things and expand that should be used in addition to listening a lot.

I've seen some incredible blues solos transcribed note-for-note with bends, hammer-ons and harmonics all notated correctly. Sometimes it WOULD be easier just to learn something like that by ear rather than try to "read" it. Without actually hearing the solo, you probably would never get the right "feel" for it.

I guess there's a difference between HAVING to read music, and reading music to give you ideas you maybe hadn't thought of...

I think the NNS is just another tool that one can learn as a musician. It has it's uses, but it doesn't work in every situation: neither does a V-I progression.

Just my $.02.

------------------
Larry
www.audibleresponse.com

[This message has been edited by Lwilliam (edited 08-17-2002).]

Thanks Larry, I believe it was Louis Armstrong who coined that famous reply.

Thank you, too, for making the case FOR the Nashville Number System. I just see value in BOTH and hate to see musicians limit themselves to only one way of doing things while knocking others down. I've heard soooo many musicians say "no one reads music anymore" and being totally content in their ignorance of such. Seems we should strive to be versatile in our musical abilities if we set ourselves up to be musicians.

Mike...

I don't know you personally, but your reputation precedes you.
I know you to be a talented and creative guy and you certainly understand the mechanics of music as well(and very possibly better) than I.

I'm sorry if I sounded like I was being desultory or talking down the abilities of "Nashville" musicians.

There is an incredible pool of talent there..gosh I've seen i8 year old kids walk in off the street whose guitar cases I'd be proud to carry !

My CD is one of those one-man over-dub things that I promote doing solo gigs on the road.
My traveling band is a 10 piece unit that makes me enough money to indulge my "artistic" whims in the solo project.

Some of the venues for the solo project afford me enough extra dollars that I can consider picking up a couple of local guys to fill out the live sound.
My "book" for the solo work is very different from the one I use for the ten piece.
It's mainly simple chord charts with just a few figures notated.
Over the last couple of years I've done some traveling and have had real good luck finding local players who have no trouble with the book.
Because I write on guitar I enter chords with a :guitairsh" tilt.
Sometimes I'll put in f#m7flat5 but other times I'll call it aminor/f#...
I've learned that keyboard players especially, will view that chord differently even tho the notes may be the same...often the inversion they choose for the aminor sounding chord will be closer to what I have in mind.
I am rankled with the notion that I have to supply a differnt set of those already easy charts if I come to Nashville and want to put a couple of guys to work on a Thursday night !
I, for the life of me, cannot see how the Nashville number system makes anything easier !
If I have the chords written in as C for two bars, F, for two bars etc...then tell the guys."hey, we're gonna do this up a half step".. or whatever..it seems to me they're still gonna have to know what those chords are in the new key !
How does the number system make that easier..I just don't get it !

And I'll tell ya what !...

You and I will get together...we'll have somebody give us a tune to chart out simply and quickly...You use numbers..and I'll use my system..if you finish before me then dinner at the Tin Angel (my favorite restaurant in Nashville" is on me !

Bob(looking forward to a free meal)Young

ps almost forgot..re music as a language..

We disagree, but I think it's just semantics..

An A note is just a sound..like opening up your mouth and going "ahhh"
I view music notation as the language that makes that sound fit into some coherent tense.
How long it will last..where it appears in context with other notes etc.
Just like applying words to sounds that come out of the mouth..
That's why I view it as a language..just a different viewpoint from yours ie..a different definition.

bob

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 08-17-2002).]

Who would have thought that this message board would be controversial!

= )

Brian

This ain't contraversy This is debate. Good debate.
What an interesting read.
Thank you all.
Regards.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/grahamhenderson_music.htm

LOL. I just wrote out what I consider a pretty intelligent post, but after reading Bob's reply, I decided not to post it. I'll save it for other discussions.

Here is my take on Tablature, Solfege, Nashville, Roman Numeral, etc. as opposed to Standard Notation. If you want to study the guitar and haven't already learned and gotten used to those systems, go for standard. It will be easier to learn those other systems after you know standard than vice versa. If you want to go into other than Country Music, learn standard even if you already know those other systems. If you want to be a professional guitarist that can always get a gig anywhere you live and not have to keep a "day " job, learn to read and play standard notation. ( Bob will be glad to hire you, as he mentioned in his post.)

Private guitar lessons are expensive. It's close to $40 for just one private half hour lesson (around here, anyway)

There are a lot of good Community College classes that you can take to learn how to play guitar AND read standard notation. At the Community Colleges out here, it is about $11 per unit. So that's $44 for a whole semester of classes. They are usually group lessons, but if you declare yourself to be a guitar major, you usually get a private lesson instead of a group one.

If you can't squeeze a college class into your schedule, or if you are too young to go to college (you are never too old), see if your high school has a guitar class offered. Some do.

If you don't and can't afford even group lessons, you can get a software program to help you. BUT try at least to get a friend who plays to help you a little in the beginning and tell you if you are doing it right. A software program doesn't reach out and move your fingers over to the RIGHT strings the way someone who knows how to play does and also can't keep you from developing bad habits. A friend can though.

There may even be some elementary school districts that teach guitar. ( There is a public school down in the San Diego area who, in partnership with Taylor Guitar Co., is giving lessons for free and even lending out Baby Taylor guitars.)



JeanB

PS: If you are a Teen and live in Central Orange County, join my Teen Choir and perform regularly and I'll give you free beginning guitar lessons. But only if you practice, !



[This message has been edited by JeanB (edited 08-17-2002).]

I think the comment that notation vs other forms, is to witten word vs brail, is a real hoot! I think a closer comparison would be written word vs sign language. Even though the deaf person gets the general jest of the conversation, there are words and feelings and timing that are left out.

To say a person can't replicate a song exacly using notation is also a real hoot. I have won many compititions reading notation, without ever hearing the song. I don't think the same can be said of other methods of writing...especially guitar tab.
I'm not knocking other forms of writing, something is better than nothing. Lets face it, notation can be read the world over.

"To say a person can't replicate a song exacly using notation is also a real hoot."

It's curious that you got a kick out of this. I don't think you've seen some of the charts and scores I have. Ever see or played an orchestral score by Berg?. Ever hear interpretations of John Cage's prepared piano pieces? Why would they sound at all different if they are notated correctly? Why would one orchestra/choir playing Mahler sound any different than another? These guys had the best training in the world for standard notation, but there are very obvious differences in interpretations of their music.

I've got a couple of note-for-note transcribed guitar solos from various records (Steve Morse/Dixie Dregs, Larry Carlton, Johnny Winter, etc). Exactly how does one define "feedback squeal" or "amp growl"? It's notated on some of them as to an exact length and place in time.

Many years ago I had an opportunity to play guitar in the pit band for the musical Jesus Christ Superstar when it was in Pittsburgh. On the scores, there were notations like "slight fuzz sound", "use wah-wah", and "pick slide". I would bet that the next guitar player's "fuzz", "pick slide" and "wah-wah" sounded different from mine.

I have a transcription of Albert Lee's "Country Boy". It's a bluegrass piece in cut time at 152 bpm. Without hearing it or using tablature, do you think you would know when he played the "b" on the third string instead of an "open b" on the second? Maybe it was really the "b" on the 9th fret of the fourth string? Yes, I realize there are "standard" notations for which string to play, but I've sure never seen it consistently utilized.

A novel or short story is an art form in and of itself. Music notation (standard or otherwise) shares no such distinction.

First came the music, then somewhere along the line, someone decided to try to document it so that others might possibly be able to play it as well. It's an imperfect system, but it's the best we mere mortals have been able to come up with.

No one will ever be able to document the subtle differences between a technically perfect performance and one that moves you to tears. That difference comes from inside - not from a piece of paper.


------------------
Larry
www.audibleresponse.com

[This message has been edited by Lwilliam (edited 08-17-2002).]

...oops. Too quick on the mouse finger.


[This message has been edited by Lwilliam (edited 08-17-2002).]

Fun stuff, y'all.

Bob, next time you're in Nashville, we'll have the contest with one additional rule. First song we do it your way, second song I'll transcribe with letters and you with numbers. Then, lunch at the Tin Angel...with drinks.

Lwilliam,
At first I was going to rip off a scathing post, but after reading you post a secon time I realized that you hit the nail on the head on several points.

One musician may interpet a piece differently than another. If you had one orcastra, 10 directors, and 1 score, you would probably have 10 different sounding songs. However if you had 10 orcastras, 1 director, and 1 score, there is a pretty good chance that each time the song was played it would sound the same.

With the ever evolving musical instrument field, there is a need for new symbols and such. Even with new symbols to notate different effects or sounds, a person will never be able to duplicate what the original player did. There are different variances of devices, amps, and instruments.

I have been studing the works of Joe Henderson. The notation is perfect in every way. If I had his sax, omashure (SP), controll of breath, and his dexterety, I can assure you that with my ability to read music, that I would sound exactly like him in every way, without ever have heard his music.

There are some special symbols used in blues, and jazz, and if you don't know what they mean, then you might as well forget it. These symbols remain true the world over.

Also I totally agree with you on the music actually comming from inside. I have played with classical musicains that did well in there field, but when the tryed to do jazz or blues, they could not do it. Sometimes if ya aint got no feel, no soul, then ya aint got nothen'.

[This message has been edited by kaboombahchuck (edited 08-17-2002).]

In answer to the transposition question: It's confusing to read C and be told to think Bb. I can do it fairly well myself, but if I'm writing charts for a live radio show, I'm not going to ask the musicians to do something with a potential problem inherent to it.

The reason the number system makes it easier is that it's not asking you to transpose, just to be "in key" no matter what the key is. It's like using the solfeggio method, or, come to think of it, it's like using a capo.

To those who feel "put upon" by needing to supply numbers to Nashville musicians, that's like feeling resentful the waiter in Paris doesn't understand your english. It doesn't get you better service. Trust me, the musician's here, or anywhere, want to serve you as best they can. I'd recommend not only that you chart in numbers, but that you keep charts available in any key you might need. Focus on the result you want, make it easier on the musician to read and they can concentrate more on playing their butts off.

[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 08-17-2002).]

Mike...

Listen to what you're saying...

You're saying do the charts both ways..right...one set for the whole wide world..and one set for Nashville....

I'm sorry Mike...that goes to the purest definition of the word arrogance !

Your analogy with the waiter in Paris doesn't hold up either...as I travel around the world if I find waiters in every restaurant that can speak my language, whatever it is..then I am not asking too much for the waiter in one country out odf the whole world to speak it as well.
Asking me to learn his language just so I can order a samdwich in his place when I can order a sandwich anywhere else...naaaa..that aain't it !

And my keyboard guy would like to know where he can order a capo for his rhodes !
And the last thing a capo on guitar should be used for is to give the guitar player an excuse to play the same inversions in any key all the time..!

Sorry Mike..it still looks to me like you're trying to take thought out of the process !

easier ain't always better !

And also..it's certainly true that alot of guys that don't read can "wail"... but..honestly..when I'm looking for section guys..I don't need guys that can "wail"...
that's MY job..I need guys who will play the stuff I've been trying to work out for the last 35 or 40 years to create a texture that lets ME wail !

I'm not ashamed to ask for that..I was the poor schmuck in the back row plenty of times !

As for me doing a score in numbers..no dice !

I'd have to learn the system to do that and I got lots better stuff to do with the few years I got left on this planet !

I'm not gonna learn to speak Latin either !

You guys down there can do as you wish..
But there's a reason why there are no books being offered on the system..oh Maybe a couple...but certainly not many...

And in closing..I'll say it again..if I'm down there looking for players they're gonna have to do it the way the whole rest of the world does it to get a paycheck from me.
If they don't want that paycheck..that's fine and certainly their right !

Bob (just got home from a gig with no reading at all !) Young

I own a business and I've designed a machine. Because of my market I want to have the machines made somewhere in Asia. I send my specifications written in a form they don't regularly use in Asia. They ask that these specs get written in their form. I get mad and refuse because they are being arrogant to want things the way they are used to. I insist they read the specs in my form. I get the machine back. There are some problems.

My competition sends the specs for his machine, written in the form they are used to. He did his homework and found out that they worked better using this form. He gets his machines back. There are no problems.

Bob, no one here is telling you that you have to write your charts out in the number system. Write them out in any system you want. I am offering here a simple overview of how the system works.

Would I suggest that people who come here to have their songs played by Nashville musicians use numbers? Yes. I also would suggest that Nashville songwriters who go to Chicago have their songs written out in standard notation with chord letters above. I don't think it's "elitist" that Chicagoans read the way the majority does. I simply know that's the way it's done there, and if I want a better job done on my songs, I'll write them that way.

By the way, I'm originally from Chicago. I was chairman of the faculty at the Old Town School of Folk Music. Though I've been here in Nashville for over twenty years, Rich Warren at WFMT radio still plays my songs on "the Midnight Special" in Chicago. Say hi to any of my old friends there.


[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 08-18-2002).]

Bob,

I understand how you feel as I felt much the same way prior to moving to Nashville. I have a degree in music and did my masters thesis on computer music composition. I was very much used to writing out my own lead sheets (which I had to do again recently for the "Urban Cowboy" Broadway project because the musical director up in NY doesn't read the number charts :-).

Of course living in Nashville, I now teach the Nashville Number System along with traditional music theory. I think that just as it would probably be a good idea to learn some Italian prior to taking a trip to Italy, it's probably a good idea to learn the lingo of the Nashville Number System prior to doing work in Nashville. It can save precious time (and money)in the studio if a songwriter comes in with their songs already charted, especially on a five song session. It also allows them to communicate better with the musicians at the session.

I'm sure the debate could continue on as to why Nashville musicians prefer their own lingo over the "usual" way of doing things. But, in the end, the bottom line is that they do -- and it will likely not change. In my own opinion, I find the Nashville Number System to be nothing more than a simplified way of communicating a schematic for a song. There's very little difference between it and the traditional Roman Numeral Notation that's been used in Music Theory Analysis for ages (and continues to be used in colleges).

I think Mike's information (which by the way Mike you've presented very well), is not meant to be taken as "everyone needs to know the Nashville Number System". But more along the lines of, if you're traveling to Italy, here's some handy Italian phrases that might come in useful.

Just my two cents...

Best wishes,

-Danny

------------------
----------------------
Danny Arena/Sara Light
www.SongU.com
Songwriting Courses Online

I really like the analogy of learning Italian if you're going to Italy. You can probably find some Italians who will read an English chart, but if you want the widest number of options for musicians, you'll probably want to write your chart in Italian. Right, wrong, or indifferent, it's just to your advantage.

Kaboom....LOL! I also started on a more scathing response and toned it way down. I had a feeling we agreed more than we disagreed.

I know what you mean about "feel". It's hard finding a jazz/blues player who can play straight eighths with the precision of a classically-trained musician, or a classically-trained musician who can "swing" with the best jazz players. There are ALWAYS the exceptional musicians who can do both - but I'm just talking the majority.

Other issues aside, Coltrane or Dizzy probably wouldn't have won "first chair" in any symphony, and Horowitz probably isn't the delta blues player you'd have wanted to hire - even if you could've afforded him.

------------------
Larry
www.audibleresponse.com

[This message has been edited by Lwilliam (edited 08-18-2002).]

Well...I'm gonna close out my end of this...

NMot because it hasn't been enjoyable, but because I don't want to venture farther for fear I might say something to truly offend some obviously sensitive and intelligent people !
You guys present your case well...but...

Remember, you're speaking from the perspective of those who live and work day-to-day in that environment.
If I were to move there and make that my center of trade then I certainly would learn to converse in the language of the locals...I'm stubborn..but I'm not an idiot.

But if your local professionals are going to refuse to learn to converse in the language of those bringing commerce to your area..well..to Hell with them !
I'll bring my lunch with me !
There are guys with capos all over this country ! ( I'm one of them !)

Folks in Nashville must feel very lucky to live there...it's nice to live in a place where you can afford to turn down work !

My original intent in making this argument was to voice displeasure that all the space was being wasted telling folks to learn a system that is only used in one small pocket of the country..and I stand by that.
If someone wants to add the Nashville number system to their knowledge of music notation..well..I think that's fine !
But..I think it would be best for our mentors to encourage and indeed teach to use standard notation first..;.most of our members are never going to come to Nashville..and I think they'd be better off knowing how to write out music in a way that will serve them where they live !

It makes alot more sense to know standard notation for day to day functions..then..if you have to come to Nashville for a session..hire a local copyist to write it out in numbers.
Schlepping around multiple sets of charts written out in different keys and different modes is just not practical !

Finally......

I'm 56 years old....

One thing I've learned in life is that it's not good to coddle a petulant, spoiled child.
I will bring my book to Nashville..as is !
I will hope that I can find some local guys who appreciate the challenge of doing something a bit different !
If I can't find any then I'll bring in true professionals who play ball because they love the game and not sit out if we don't use their bat and ball !

By the way..WFMT continues to be a fine radio station !
Old town School of Folk music is thriving and has added a real nice new location on the North Shore.

Bob (glad I'm here !) Young

Bob,

Next time you're here in Nashville let me know, I'll make sure you get a group of musicians who can sight read standard notation. It's been a pleasure debating with such an erudite, accomplished musician.

Right back atcha' Mike !

I think (and sense that you do as well) that exchanges like this are really healthy and meaningful when conducted in a civil tone !

Proud to know you young man !

Bob

I did nothing in here but read, observe and learn and now feel the want to say thank you all for an interesting read, observe and learn.
I still have some wonders but I am sure they willl present themselves along the way.
If they don't I will ask.
Thanks Guys.
GRaham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/grahamhenderson_music.htm

Bob,

If you want to blame someone for the Nashville Numbers system being the first 4 main posts, you can blame me. Mike had been kind enough to write those articles for our newsletter a long time ago, but we never got more than the first part of 3 run. I decided to run all three and link them on the site and that gave me the idea that we needed a Music Theory message board for just this type of exchange.

I hope you and others will post traditional notation tips, info, lessons, ideas, thoughts or anything else that might bring folks in to read. I also want to commend Mike and Bob and everyone else for having the most civil heated discussion we've had around here in a while. To be honest, I get a real kick out of people who are passionate about something like music notation instead of tired old politics or whining about the types and numbers of message boards we have!

= )

Brian

I have read this thread with interest, but I think there is one concept that is missing from the discussion: the Nashville numbers system and standard notation are NOT different ways to accomplish the same thing. They are different systems for accomplishing DIFFERENT things. Each one is designed to work efficiently for its own purpose.

Standard notation is for a composer, or arranger, who wants to have musicians play exactly what he has written...every note, every nuance. Notation works perfectly for this purpose.

The number system is an adaptation that allows the MUSICIANS to contribute to the piece. The chart merely provides the song's structure and the chord placements...the musicians provide the rest. It is deliberately inexact and relies on the improvosational talents of the pickers to make the song turn out well. The number system works well in Nashville simply because it is more appropriate for the way the record producers work there.

To put it the most simple way: standard notation says to the musician, "here play this just as it is written." The Nashville system says, "here are the chords. Do what you think works."

I think arguing the relative merits is never going to produce a consensus. Each system does what IT does best.

Great thread. Great discussion.

[This message has been edited by TrumanCoyote (edited 08-30-2002).]

Very well put Truman.

JeanB

Truman..

Actually, what we were debating was the idea that when in Nashville we HAD to supply Nashville type charts.
We use simplified charts all the time here in Chicago (and elsewhere) but we write out chord names instead of numbers.
Often we will add notated sections if we want a particular riff to be played at a certain point.
In the real world, most charts for rhythm sections are a combination of play what I want and play what you want.
My 10 piece book is a good example of that..horn parts are notated pretty strictly but the bass and piano and guitar book are a combination of simple chord names and notated lines.
I don't have a "string" book but if I need parts written they are also written in standard notation.

My original point in all of this was that standard notation should be learned first, with Nashville numbers as "added" knowledge.

Bob

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 08-31-2002).]

I see you point exactly, Bob. And I think your post helps explain why Nashville leans so heavily toward numbers rather than notation: they SELDOM have to worry about horn charts. I would guess that, over the last few decades, WAY less than one percent of the recordings in Nashville use horns. Stings MAY be a little higher than that, but not much.

So, for the guitar, bass and keyboard parts, they do just like you do--they use a chord chart.

Makes sense to me.

One other note. Keep in mind that Nashville is a demo mill. Of all the studio time logged in that town, by far MOST of it is for demos. Writing out scores for most Nashville demos would be a very inefficiant way to make the recordings. For that reason, the numbers chart rules.

Hi all,
I have to agree with alot of the things Bob has said. And I especially agree with Truman about the fact that Nashville is a big demo mill. I guess my take on this is that, by analogy, the number system is kind of like how people come to this country as immigrants and WE have to learn their language. It's a bit strange to me that the majority of us speak English, yet we have to learn Spanish in most cases to communicate with immigrants. But if you wanna do the Nashville thing it's what you have to do. I guess in Nashville, they're the people who speak Spanish and we have to learn the language and become "bilingual" musicians. I, for one have no desire to move to Nashville because of the way it's a very formulated, contrived style of making music. If I were to relocate anywhere, which I don't plan on doing, it would be a place like Austin, which from what I understand is a very creative, vibrant, musical place. One other thing that a friend of mine and I were discussing is the fact that I can't tell one country song from the next sometimes. Could this be the result of the same musicians in Nashville who know the number system doing session after session, therefore all of the records start to sound alike because all of the same session guys and gals who know the system are playing on them???? In addition, most of the big projects seem to use the same producers. One more point that came to me this morning;the ability to read or not read music has nothing to do with how brilliant or creative you are as a musician. I know plenty of people who can ONLY sight read and have no ability to play by ear, or to play from memory. Notation and sight reading are only a way to communicate the language of music from one person to the next. How one plays or interprets it is an entirely different thing. Some of us speak with a Southern drawl or a nasaly New York accent, or some of us use more slang (feel, the blues, rock n roll) and some of us speak in a more refined and eloquent way (classical musicians or the sophisticated voicings in Jazz). It all adds to the great melting pot that music is. I hope I didn't ramble, make no sense or piss anyone off.
davey O.

I think I need to make something clear to anybody reading this thread..

In the final analysis(for me anyway) I am feeling less set upon by the Nashville approach.
Mike has made me see that the concept is valid, but more importantly, that there are people in and around Nashville who will work outside the system.

I think if I came to Nashville and needed to pick up players I would have a good man In Mike to contact if I needed people to work outside the Nashville numbers system.

At the same time, seeing someone of Mikes obvious abilities who is comfortable with said system, I find myself thinking that the problem may indeed be mine and I may just be suffering from an unexpected onset of musical tight-ass.

Bob Young

I still say..learn Standard notation first..but..when in Rome......

I've never seen a more diverse musical environment than Nashville. We have a blues bar, Boubon Street Blues Bar, that has been voted #1 in America by Blues Magazine; In the past year, I've played at jazz clubs, blues festivals, barndances, R&B clubs, bluegrass clubs, square dances, fiddle contests, Irish clubs, and Italian festivals. I've heard live Mexican music, Middle Eastern, Scottish, and Hip Hop.


Nashville is also one of the main hubs of Americana music. A "roots" country movement started here by the likes of Jason and the Scorchers, BR5-49, John Prine, Steve Earle, Townes Van Zandt, Emmy Lou Harris, the Oh Brother Where Art Thou cast, and all of Billy Block's crew; Americana is helping preserve the folk-based art this town helped create.

I was a professional musician and music teacher for thirteen years before moving to Nashville. I was amazed by the "team" attitude displayed by the musicians here. People are encouraged to do their best, listen, and play well with each other.

In my opinion, the good musicians and songwriters in Nashville have contributed more than their share of some of the world's finest music. They will continue to, and I'm proud to be in their community.

Wow, this thread is like the Energizer Bunny. I agree that if someone is just learning, learn standard first. Understanding music theory and reading and writing standard notation is also a great help in composition. I sure enjoy this thread.

JeanB

Mike,
My intention wasn't to say that Nashville is a talentless town. Actually, I went to the Down From The Mountain tour when it came to Buffalo this year. That's what country music is to me. The problem I have is what is happening in all genres of music, where you have the industry trying to constantly replicate successful acts instead of developing new ones. The aspect of Nashville I don't like is the Faith Hill's, Tim McGraw's, & Shania Twain's. That's pop music more than country. Also, I had a rehearsal yesterday afternoon with my acoustic duo partner who accompanies me. We do my original material and he made a very valid point. The Nashville numbers are no different than if we came up with a shorthand system for him to learn and play my songs quicker. I guess in general I don't like when ANY music scene encloses itself in a bubble and it's diffucult for new people to break in. But, I learned something at my rehearsal yesterday from my partner. The only music scene I should be concerned about succeeding in is my own. Getting my act honed and my songs right. That's not to say I don't admire other artists. Buffalo has a very strong singer songwriter community and I'm proud to be a part of that. I've noticed that the success that I've had recently hasn't come from banging on doors but rather from just doing my thing at the highest level of my ability which is allowing my talent to show through, which people are starting to see. Sorry, I just rambled.
In closing, I just want to say that being a musician has allowed me to learn so much more about life and a whole variety of things I don't think I would have ever experienced had I decided to live the typical American lifestyle. I continue to learn from all of you JPFolks Members as well. Thanks for the continuing education.
davey O.

Davey,

I guess what I'm trying to say is:

Nashville does not close itself in a bubble. Sure there is Faith Hill and Shania Twain. I think of them the way I do of Madonna; great production, catchy melodies, decent songs, but not enlightening or revolutionary. However, I find their participation in the music business to be a positive element.

The big mistake, I believe, In country music was the failure of the industry to continue making it's traditional and "rootsy" artists available to the public. This isn't Tim McGraw's or his producer's or his wife's fault. He's just another singer trying to have another hit.

So, are the business people playing fair? Of course some aren't. They've been greedy just like the Enron guys, and would only invest in high-return potential (kid stuff...kids buy more cd's). Quite a while back, I wrote a post with a modest proposal for a strategy to get country music back on track: Buy more traditional cd's. Well the Coen brothers found out how to get people to do that with Oh Brother Where Art Thou, so now country music gets yet another "roots" revolution like Hank, the Outlaws, Ricky Skaggs, Randy Travis, et al.

So I'm simply defending the good musicians of Nashville. Many of the successful ones that I've met are very hard workers who have created their own opportunities. They arent' hogging the pie...it's their pie! Others who want pie should get baking, and the good people here in Nashville can help with some recipes.



[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 09-03-2002).]

If you base your opinions of the Nashville music scene on what you hear on pop country radio, you will have a jaundiced view. There is an amazing breadth of talent, and of musical styles and types in Nashville.

If you think all country records sound the same, blame the producers--not the musicians. The pickers just give the producers what they want; or else they don't get calls.

One incredible eye-opener is going to songwriter clubs like the Bluebird. There, you will see pro songwriters doing their thing accompanied only by acoustic guitar. You'll hear their hits--sure--but the amazing thing you will hear is the remarkabale songs these folks write that will NOT get cut! Nashville music goes MUCH deeper than top 40 radio, but you have to do a little digging to find it. Believe me, it's worth it.

In the end.. there is only one place to point the finger for the type of music being made commercially: The person buying it.

If no one bought another Shania album (or insert any other pop country act).. she'd get dumped just like Mariah got dumped when people said "enough already" to her last album. But the reality is, people vote with their wallets. When the Oh Brother stuff hit the charts, you'd think people would have also bought the albums of at least the artists on that compilations.. but to a major degree.. it didn't happen..

Record labels are no different than hardware stores. They sell whatever their customers want to buy. In a given record store, there is plenty of non pop country music sitting there. No one is buying it. And you can't say they never hear it because they bought a lot of Oh Brother CD's and got a taste of those artists.. so where were the mass follow up sales?

You can't blame a "business" for conducting profitable practices. If you, as a writer/artist, want all the benefits of commercial music business, then you need to deal with reality. You want to SELL product. You want to make, market, stock and ship it in the most affordable and efficient way so your business makes money. I think it's time we all took a deep breath and dealt with that fact.

If you want to work outside that "system" no one is stopping you. But don't complain about their system. If you truly have a better alternative, then compete and prove it. I see indie artists do that all the time. I saw one come to Indianapolis, play a tiny coffee shop for 12 people and make 100 bucks in donations and CD's sales in 2 hours because he blew people away. Then he was off to the next city and the next and the next. He was PART of the major label commercial system (ever heard of a band called Vertical Horizon? He was the bass player...) He didn't like what they wanted him to do, so he left that lucrative deal to strike out and do it his way. He doesn't complain or blame.. he just proves he does it better his way.

We all need to do that. Prove we can do it better.. or get with the system. Observing and complaining from afar may make you feel superior, but it doesn't get you anywhere.

Real pro's are flexible.. realistic and find the opportunities in differences rather than the negatives. Mike Dunbar is one of the most professional and easy going guys I have met and also the most flexible. A consumate pro. We should all learn form his demeanor.. and the work of artists like Seth Horan who does it his way, outside of the system, but who is finding success on HIS terms and will, in the end, be all the better off for it.

That's just my opinion.. I could be right..

Brian

= )

And in the end, there's still Bob Young as well as Planet Nashville! May the two continue to co-exist in some kind of harmonious manner! Let us dig the synchronisity possible between the two. Bob and Mike bring two valid views to the table. But when dealing with Nashville, let's face it, it's been a musically political powerhoouse for many years and will remain so. Going back to Buddy Holly and Owen Bradley, the history is rich and deep. Buddy went back to Texas, Nashville turned it's back on one of the best. I guess you could say the same for Dwight Yoakum. It's no wonder we can ponder on the Nashville "Systen" like this. Thanks Bob, for a great post. Nashville has history on their side but the whole ballgames' changing so much every day, who knows?
Thanks Again to the Inimitable Mr. Young, Best Regards, TJ Sullivan, Sunland Ca.

Well, I had to throw my 2 cents in here. I am a minister of music and play alot on stage with many different styles. I read notation/chord chats/number chats/lead sheets. I learned them all because the more I played the more I realized that everyone has their own comfort zone of playing. It is your job as a musician to make those around you sound great. If you dont familiarize yourself with every style of "musical communication" I think you sell yourself as well as you fellow musicains short. The ease of using the number system is simple - a VIm7 will always be a VIm7 regardless of what key you are in. I have found that it is easier to give "fingers or voice numbers on stage to musicians who are either new, sitting in or not familiar with an "old song" you might pull out in a live show. Part of what makes the "magic" of music is improv. and knowing the basic chord structure of a song is vital. I have found that it is much easier to communicate with numbers than yelling out or tryint to mouth "E flat minor seven" or whatever the case may be. I have friends who are professional players from NY to FL. They are gifted in reading or charting in any langauge. That is what makes them great. Some might say it would be equally arrogant to assume that standard notation is "the only way to go". I say, "whatever I can do to make the other musicians comfortable and sound their best...that's what i'll do"
for what it's worth, that's my 2 cents.

good luck to all!



------------------
Jeremy Bussey

"It is your job as a musician to make those around you sound great. If you dont familiarize yourself with every style of "musical communication" I think you sell yourself as well as you fellow musicains short."

Jeremy, I couldn't agree with you more. This has been a great read. Thanks to all!

[This message has been edited by SusanRJones (edited 09-08-2002).]

Susan,

I also agree with Jeremy.

I believe we are meant to learn from each other so we can be of service to each other.

What we are doing with these numbers and letters and dots, lines, shapes, and so on, is providing a visual roadmap for an aural performance. Teaching has shown me one thing, if nothing else; and that is that different people learn, communicate, and perform in different ways. Some take well to traditional music notation, some have a natural talent for the number system, some do best playing by ear and thinking about fingering shapes. I recommend you work from your strong areas and develop your weak areas.

I recommend that all musicians learn notation, numbers, solfeggio, tablature, and shape notes. I know many excellent musicians who can play only what they read by notation. I recommend they try playing by ear and learning to improvise.

Picasso could paint realistically. Robert Johnson could play the popular songs of his time. Glenn Close can play a hero, a villian, or a comic. James Galway plays flute and penny whistle. Mark O'Connor can play jazz, bluegrass, classical... you name it.

Art is an expanding, not a restricting gift.