JPF Home Page Forums The Votes are all in...

Hi Brian and everyone who entered and voted in the lyric competition and especially all my very special friends (you know who you all are). I hope everyone else got as much enjoyment out of this experience as I did, sure hope it's here to stay. To make the nominations list was VERY unexpected (I know that sounds corny, but it's true). Congratulations everyone and good luck.

One other thing, the discussion threads here have been great - many new friends added to our group. Thanks Brian - your dedication is not taken for granted by any of us. I hope to have some more Australian members soon. I'm being interviewed on the local radio some time this month and the interview will focus on songwriting so I will be putting in a plug for JPF. Cheers, Judy

Brian, and all of you lyricists. Congratulations on such a great place to read some of the thoughts of so many very talented individuals.
I was really very sad when I looked at the nominations until I had a chance to read through the postings in this forum. I've listened in on JPFolks and Brian for several years. And, with all of the wisdom that speaks against genres for the lyric awards, the one thing that speaks strongest in favor of them, is confirmed to me by your nominations. I was truly ready to disassociate myself from a group that could be so insensitive as to nominate a lyric with Jesus in its title and "kiss my ass" in its chorus. I can't say that the vote is in to change that sentiment in me. I'm all for freedom of expression, but at whose expense. Do you need to subject your christian writers to such an avoidable disdain or reproach. If such a song appeared outside a Christian genre then it would serve as a warning, especially since no one in their right mind would place the song in a Gospel or Contemporary Christian category. If that's good writing to you guys, I'm obliged to spare myself from your ignorance (i.e. disdain for my beliefs). It might be contagious. Gotta go.

Hello, ColosseMessenger.

I was very interested to read your post on "Jesus and the Ice Cream Man" and on the subject of lyric genres. It was an interesting discussion to partipate in, and I learned alot.

However, I don't think the purpose of the genres should ever be to shield readers from ideas or expressions of those ideas. This society generally supports the principal that more speech is better than less, and the best true response to ideas we disagree with is to state what we do agree with, just as you have done here.

In addition, in re-reading "Ice Cream Man" (a lyric I did not personally vote for) I found it to be a very thoughtful, ironic, hopeful - yes, and funny - expression of the dilemna that most people find themselves in - wanting to believe in the face of life's great trials. The singer is a real person, with real doubts and fears and here he is saying that between faith (Jesus) and everyday pleasures (ice cream) he's going to make it.

As good as an expression of faith as any, IMO.

Peace. Linda

I was one of those who favored using genres in the lyric competition, for the same reason they are used in the song competitions. The purpose of using genres is not to censor lyrics, but to make more lyrics available and to have them judged by those who are competent to judge them, i.e., those who are familiar with the kind of message, its subject matter, the community that is being addressed, and stylistic considerations that may be peculiar to the genre.

There were a number of songs in the lyric competition that offended me. "Jesus and the Ice Cream Man" was not one of them; in fact, it was one of my top 20 or so favorites (can't remember if . I don't see what that would have to do with using genres, other than the fact that it wouldn't be in a Christian category (it's clearly not a Christian song) and those who wanted to limit their reading to Christian lyrics could do so. But I think the way you deal with offensive lyrics is to not vote for them. If people vote for them, it speaks to the standards of the voters, and this is the audience we have to deal with.

On another note, I was curious to see how the Christian lyrics would be treated. I didn't really check, and there were a number of finalists that I didn't recall (about half were in my favorites list, the other half, I suspect, were squeakers), but it didn't look like any made it to the finalist stage. Which, I think, affirms the argument for using categories in the competition. When you have aesthetics that clash on such a fundamental level, how does that affect things?

I happened to think "Jesus and The Ice Cream Man" was very poignant. It caught my attention, kept it and it is still with me. It was also among my top twenty picks. I didn't find it offensive at all. But we are all entitled to our opinions and I respect them all. I think maybe I just "took" it differently and found the sadness, the humor and the depth within the lyrics.

Tink

Hey guys, I'm not trying to bully the Ice Cream man song for being anything other than something I would prefer not to have to be bothered with. BTW, I like rap, love jazz, but mostly keep my radio tuned to Christian radio stations. I think that what I was trying to say here was that, I'd rather not have to suffer through any more here than I would in my car. Genres allow us to be "all in this together", because we don't all have to be the same, or listen to the same stuff. I very much liked the beginning of that song, but the chorus simply grated on me. Inner struggle interpretation aside (actually, my first and later impressions were that the kid figured since church Jesus begged for feeding the Africans, but the ice cream man at least gave a return on his investment, he could at least pray for the Africans since his Christian ice cream man was always on time and spent more time with him than his family did), and contrary to the idea of censorship, I just think that writing genres would help some of us to participate where we would otherwise not.

[This message has been edited by ColosseMessenger (edited 11-14-2002).]

(On "Jesus and the Ice Cream Man"- by C.M.)
If that's good writing to you guys, I'm obliged to spare myself from your ignorance (i.e. disdain for my beliefs). It might be contagious. B][/QUOTE]

That's taking a large [and puzzling] step, interpreting such a lyric as a touchstone of "ignorance".
Rather, I'd say it probably speaks volumes of the reality and practice of certain "beliefs" and tenets.
Personally, I try and spare myself from my own knowledge of such priggish and intolerant behaviour as exemplified by so many so-called religious folk. (The Taliban are inspired messengers of their particular reading of God, lest we forget.) There's a glaring and inescapable reason for my personal "disdain" for such ill-willed mouthings and practice, and another obvious chalk mark for the good sense in the legally mandated separation of church and state.
Catagories? How 'bout: 1.) The Good and Always Right Folks, and 2.) The Evil, Ignorant, and Damned Folks.
That oughtta do it.

Ps. Personal apologies to C.M. for not being as even-handed and mild in my response; the subject matter just gets me HOT!



[This message has been edited by Ozone Pete (edited 11-15-2002).]

Put me down on the "Evil & Damned" list. Most of my friends & audience can probably go there, too.

A song, in my opinion, rarely is worth listening to unless it presents a point of view. Any point of view, really. And for every view there will be those who take offense... can't be helped. If you try to write a lyric geared towards the easily-offended, you'll end up with bland, uninteresting and wholly unrealistic verse.

So if Jesus loves you, that's great. Good for you. My only religious experience was when I got into a car accident with a priest. Doesn't mean I'm not spiritual... just not religious. But I don't whine about the "ignorance" of church-goers, because I understand that everyone thinks their own way. That what makes life interesting. Right?

Here's one for ya... I recently tried to book a performance at what is considered a "Christian" coffeehouse. I noticed that they also booked "non-Christian" music, so I figured I'd give it a try. Well, I spoke with the owner and two things bothered me about my conversation with her...1.) She said she doesn't like to book too far in advance, yet she was already booked up until April of 2003 and 2.) Because of this she had already met her "quota" of non-Christian music and didn't want to book any more as of yet because she didn't want it to interfere with their ministry. Now I ask, what do you think would happen if the roles were reversed and a Christian performer were told by a regular old coffeehouse that they didn't want too much Christian music in there because they wouldn't want their clientele to get the impression that they're a church? I think you'd see pickets, news cameras and charges of religious dicrimination. But us that are non-Christians, well our rights don't matter, cause after all, we don't believe in the "real" God anyway. My point is that I'm sick and tired of Christian folk acting like they're the only ones allowed to be offended when remarks are made towards their beliefs. Chill out. It's that mentality that has people all over the world in wars. So, come spring time I'm gonna try again to get in there and hopefully, I won't be given the same answer.
davey O.

OK, it's time to get back to the lyric thing and focus on threads related to songwriting.

JeanB

Although I posted the latest tirade, I agree, with you Jean...These boards are supposed to be about musical topics and experiences, not personal convictions and beliefs.
davey O.

Jean,
You're much too sensible! lol
...besides, one's convictions and beliefs are often reflected in one's songwriting, no?

-Popeye (I yam what I yam, and that's all what I yam)

Yes I know we are supposed to be changing topics here, but I just had to comment on this.

Davey, just yesterday I ran into the problem you mentioned. As a Christian artist trying to get booked in "secular" places I am often concerned that I will be turned away before I am even given a chance. I have been playing at several Borders bookstores here in Orange County and LA county but I haven't yet been able to play at the Borders closest to my house. It is in a different region than the ones I have been a part of. I called this particular store and the regional director asked me to drop off a CD. However, when I went by yesterday with one of my CD's I felt that I need to personally talk to him and give him some disclaimers in order to even be considered to play there. My CD is overtly Christian. It is called "Then God Whispered." I told him that so far I had been well received by the other Borders and that I have many songs that are neutral and I am not offensive or pushy in my style. I am not sure if I convinced him or not though. He said he wasn't going to book anything right now until Jan. We'll see. I would way rather play in places that aren't "Christian" because personally I hate the whole segregation thing. Good music is good music reguardless of the genre. I am playing at a Border's tonight and next week at the Huntington Beach Beer Co. ;-) Most churches don't want me. Maybe that is a good thing. LOL!

We are all in this TOGETHER!

Marla

I agree with you ColosseMessenger on that song. I was expecting a Christian song with the title. The whole concept with it is what Jesus was against with the kiss my..... That song would have been better without that line. However, we live in a country with Liberty and Freedom Of Speech. I may not like it, you may not like and we may not understand how it made it to the finals but it was placed in the contest and got the votes of support. I know I have asked for help and some of the people in the finals have helped with links and in email. I want to thank them for that.

Song For Woody is my favorite in the finals.


[This message has been edited by thunder_road_2051 (edited 11-17-2002).]

Davey, I suspect that what you're dealing with has more to do with the volunteer, non-professional nature of the coffeehouse rather than any outright discrimination. I have been on a list for an Albuquerque coffeehouse that has the same setup, and even though I've been winning song contests (Unisong and Austin Songwriters, lyric category, finalist at Dallas, Christian/Inspirational) this year, and I've told the manager I may be leaving the country, he has pretty much ignored me.

But there is a subtle, well, sometimes it's not so subtle, hostility against Christian performers, and I think a lot of us can tell you that we are not welcomed with open arms, generally speaking, in secular venues. It can and does happen, but there is a prejudice, and I think Pete has expressed that pretty well.

On the other hand, I've been in the audience at some performances where the singer-songwriter has said the most vile things about Christians, Christianity, and God.

And I've had the same experiences as Marla at our local Borders. Two separate times, two separate years, I've been told that they were "changing things around." They never get back to me, of course. But is that discrimination, or is it just that I need to be more aggressive? Who knows?

I think for some Christians, the segregated setting is preferable, safer. They don't want to deal with hecklers, they just want to praise the Lord. Others, like Marla and me and I think a few others on this list, would prefer to do secular venues. And that probably reflects the kind of material we do (judging from Marla's comment, and from my own experience), which doesn't fit in the church box. The only reason it has trouble fitting in the secular box is that there is a subtle, or not so subtle, assumption that the one thing you are not is a born-again Christian.

Michael R. J. Roth

Easy Hero,
In reading your response, I wasn't certain if you were directing your comments at me personally. No, I am not a Christian. I practice Zen Buddhism. Would I be offended if the song were called "Buddha and the Ice Cream Man"???? Absolutely not. I just read the lyrics, and if you read it in the context of the characters being described in the song, it's far from offensive IMO. Regardless of my beliefs, I would prefer to be booked or not booked based on opinion of my talent, not on whether or not my beliefs are in alignment with the owners of the venue. I respect the beliefs of all people because I believe deep down we're all trying to understand our existence and as a result, we have the various religions of this world. Anyway, this is not the Religion Forum. Imagine going on a job interview and being told something along the lines of "we've hired our quota of (insert your race or religion here) this week". In it's most basic form, that's what I was told. It sucks to be treated that way, it happens everyday to people all over of all different backgrounds. It makes one think twice before passing any type of judgement on another. As Jean said, let's get back to music.
davey O.

[This message has been edited by 3daveyO3 (edited 11-19-2002).]

[This message has been edited by 3daveyO3 (edited 11-19-2002).]

[This message has been edited by 3daveyO3 (edited 11-19-2002).]

Davey, my point was that what you were describing happens to Christians all the time. I don't really understand your resentment at not being able to play at a place that labels itself as "Christian," anyway. Would you be mad if you weren't allowed to play at a women's gathering? And some secular artists get really vile towards Christians and Christianity. And I mean REALLY vile.

We aren't really talking about religion here, but about the way different musicians are treated at various venues.

Michael

Hero,
I would be angry if I was told I couldn't play at a women's gathering if it was based on the fact that I'm a man and not on my music. Any way you slice it, it's discriminatory. If the place in question were looking for music for their church service, then by all means, my music is not for them. I would think that they would want more non Christians in their coffeehouse setting in order to try and spread the Gospel to. And if a more secular performer like myself could bring in people that could become potential members of their church, wouldn't it be beneficial to them? I feel badly for anyone who is treated unfairly, or discriminated upon because of gender, race or religion. Had I fibbed and told the owner of that coffeehouse that I played Christian music, I'd probably have a gig there. I don't care who I play for, what size the room is, or what town it's in as long as it's an opportunity for me to share my songs and music with others, possibly sell some CD's and as long as I don't lose money doing it.
davey O.

Davey, I think you're making some unjustifiable assumptions. When I read over your previous post, you said you were told that she was already booked up through April, and that she didn't want to book too far in advance. In other words, she was already booked up, and there was a horde of people (non-Christian performers) ahead of you. Doesn't sound like she's discriminating, just booked up. The fact that she wants to reserve spots for Christian performers is entirely reasonable, given the nature of the coffeehouse. Where else can these people play? Aren't you being unfair to them? I think if you really consider the circumstances, it doesn't look like you were being treated unfairly. Otherwise, you'd have to explain how all those other (secular) people got booked. I know, it's still frustrating when you can't get booked. But it happens all the time, everywhere. I think you're letting your prejudice cloud your judgment. Keep trying, and good luck.

Michael

Well, now that that topic's run out, I propose that we seperate our lyrics into political delineations. We could have Republican lyrics and Democratic lyrics; there could be ultra right and ultra left wing lyrics; There could be Libertarian lyrics for which there would be no rules; we could even have lyrics for anarchists, except none of them could agree on which was best.

Any ideas?



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Mike Dunbar Music

I don't know about the political parties, but I know I would do better if we could have a music category for non-musical people...you know folks that don't play any musical instrument well and have just enough vocal range to miss every key and no sense of timing whatsoever.

Whoops, forgot. There is a lyric category and that is what this thread used to be about.

C'mon guys. It's not an op-ed page.

dawg

Well, I think the discussion we've had was pretty interesting, and certainly has brought out a lot of passion in people. It's probably something that should move to another forum, though. Way back, I had brought up the point that it's questionable whether Christian writers can be fairly judged by non-Christians, and I think that's been thoroughly demonstrated here.

One of the aspects of a lyric is its content. There are always certain values underlying a lyric. Those values may not be explicit, but they are always there. People judge lyrics (whether in a contest or just listening as a consumer) in part based on those values. There are some pretty bad lyrics out there that get a good reception merely because they affirm someone's values ("Fight for your right to party!"), even though, in terms of artistry, craft, originality, etc., they suck. So when we are talking about value issues that affect songwriters, we are talking about lyrics and songwriting. In fact, before you ever set pen to paper, there is something going on in the back of your mind that says "I can't write that!" or "Everybody's gonna love this!" It's what influences to decide not only how to write, but what to write about. It's not something that is usually discussed in secular songwriting workshops, but if you go to a Gospel Music Association workshop, it's a fairly big topic.

Michael

Michael,
I personally [and respectfully] disagree [for the MOST part].
Pre-judging the impact of a lyric by what we might percieve as others' standards puts a gag on real creatively, IMHO.
Shouldn't saying what you want to say, in the way you want to say it be the primary motivation?
Approbation or castigation can wait 'til the thing is realized, no?

As to what [basically] comes down to a discussion of persecution:
I also respectfully submit that writing from a perspective of persecution (imagined or actual) is a dicey operation that only the most emotive/pithy of songwriters is able to pull off successfully. Look carefully at the wide variety of protest songs for what might be considered good/bad examples of this.

Hope I'm not unraveling the weft and warp of the thread here!



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Ozone
http://www.mp3.com/OzonePete

Just a couple common sense realities:

1. Getting booked at any type of venue has MUCH more to do with your TALENT, DRAW and ENTERTAINMENT ability that the style/genre of music you play. I see it in person much more than ANY of you do because I travel nearly non stop around North America 8-10 months of the year seeing thousands of artists, talking to venues, seeing who is getting booked and so on. This discussion has run on the assumption that the talent of everyone in the discussion is 100% great and something that any "honest" intentioned venue would book lest they have a bias for or against a style of music. That assumption is ridiculous. To get booked you need to have a built in draw, a powerful performance/writing style that acts as a magnet to others so they will come to the venue to watch and either pay a cover, buy food and drinks or meet whatever agenda the venue has for getting people to their place. Long before "bias" comes into the discussion, talent has to be resolved. I find most people who feel discriminated against or persecuted are the most unwilling to FIRST point the finger of responsibility at themselves. And that is a human condition that applies to both religious and non religious people.

2. Our overall awards have genres for finished songs. The stuff that rose to the top in the Contemporary Christian can compete as SONGS toe to toe with any song from any other genre. One of our most success writer/artists is a girl named Tammy Edwards from Des Moine, IA who does CC music. I'd place her album (which finished second as album of the year in ALL genres 2 years ago) against any non religious album. I also know she has no trouble getting booked into secular or non secular venues to play any old time she wants. It's amazing what a little legitimate talent can to do break these perceived persecution walls.

3. I know a non-secular performer and group who plays churches ALL THE TIME and never once mentions religion, but does know how to cater to the same audience by doing POSITIVE music. Again, these folks are so TALENTED that they never face these perceived biases that both sides of this discussion are whining about. But of course it is ALWAYS easier to blame others for our own failures and weaknesses.

4. The bottom line is.. if you can't get booked somewhere, the person has decided you have nothing to offer their folks. I could take this Contemporary Christian artist and get her booked in nearly any venue in North America with ease.. I could take this NON-Religious music group and get them booked into nearly any church and denomination WITH EASE anytime.

99% of the worlds problems starts with the individual. Fix yourself and the rest normally falls into place.

Now.. enough of the whining and persecution rap... go out and write better songs.. become better performers.. blow people away and make them desperate to buy your CD and see you every possible chance you can. If you are unable or unwilling to get to that point, that is fine. Not everyone can be a compelling performer or writer... but PLEASE stop whining and blaming others for your own weaknesses.... spend that energy improving them.

Brian

The detours from the original thread have led me to change my mind about a having a religious lyric category.

Some Gospel, Christian Contemporary and "inspirational" lyrics can fit into and possibly compete with secular lyrics but a good many "religious" or sacred hymn lyrics that are liturgical in nature often cannot. There are built in constraints that are often limiting. There are doctrinal concepts, scriptural references, and precise wording and religious symbols and metaphors that must be included. Form can be somewhat limiting also especially hymns or songs destined for use in ritual. If people judging the lyric are unfamiliar with those limits, IMO it hampers the ability to judge the lyric. How many judges could we find who could examine the lyrics not only of the Christian faith but also of other faiths? The judges would almost have to have a degree in comparative religions to do that.

Content is very important in lyrics, all craft aside. IMO, the most popular secular lyrics are those that involve experiences that are universal to the human experience. The faith experience, while common to many, is not as universal as other aspects of life. People who have not experienced religious faith (and there are many) are probably not able to judge the effectiveness of a related lyric.

It is nearly impossible to be totally objective to content and just focus on word smithery and form.

There was an objection to a vulgar expression and the name of Jesus being used in the same song. The objector could not objectively look at the song because of it. There are many songs that use G** D*** in the lyrics an equally disturbing phrase. That too would ruin the song for many people and interfere with objectivity. There are probably as many who are not objective enough to judge a religious song as there are religious people who are not objective enough to judge a secular song.

Jump from songs with religious content to other topics that might interfere with objectivity. Songs that promote the Jihaad (at this time, particularly against the US) or songs that celebrate and promote pedophilia, physical abuse etc.

It is possible that they could be the most exquisitely crafted songs in the world but because the appreciation is limited to the communities that support those things, I doubt very much that people who are not a part of those communities could distance themselves from the content and look at the song objectively.

Hopefully no one will take the above examples as being lumped in with faith. I just used those three examples because of my own aversion to them and because just about every person that I know feels the same way.

Anyway, even though I started out feeling that there was a need for a separate religious category, I feel differently about it now.

Faith is a common bond among many but not universal to all , so I have come to the conclusion that songs related to the specifics of different faiths are best appreciated and judged and by the communities of those faiths.

Related to this is the performance of songs in secular and faith specific venues. People frequenting Christian venues go there to hear Christian music.
Many, if not most, expect the performer to be a believer. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech. It has to do with community and ministry.

People going to secular venues are more likely to expect secular content in the songs. Inspirational songs might accepted as long as they are not overtly faith oriented. If Christian performers have chosen music as their ministry and bill themselves as Christian performers, I don't think it is unreasonable for the venue owner not to want to promote them.

It's about target audiences and is not related to freedom of speech, worship, artistic freedom or anything like that. It's business, plain and simple. Freedom of speech does not apply to private enterprise.

Hopefully, I haven't offended anyone.


JeanB

LOL, I just posted this and saw Brian's post.




[This message has been edited by JeanB (edited 11-22-2002).]

Did you all catch the story about the girl who wore the clothing n had flags of her country on the News Last night? How she was searched all because of who she was. The same thing happens with us as writers and readers of the lyrics here. Religous songs on the lyric board seem to get the least response imo. The church I went to with my parents had people dancing, praising God in the aisle, people slain under the Spirit and Speaking in Tongues. All very different from what some who are Christians are not used to. My sister's husband was another religon till he met my sister. He was so shocked when he went to my parent's church. If you are not a religious person still check out the lyrics. If you do not understand some of the terms ask. I am sure those who write will explain and maybe you can help them make the lyric stronger when you understand what they are trying to say.
Later,
Carl

Okay, okay; I'm trying, I really am!!!
But how can I be expected to persevere when you keep pickin' on me, Brian?!?!?!?
LOL
-The Whipping Boy



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Ozone
http://www.mp3.com/OzonePete

I have to say a couple of things here....
1.) In the conversation I had with the owner of the Christian venue in question, she told me that she only booked a certain percentage of secular music so that it didn't interfere with their ministry. Obviously, she had reached that point, I didn't get myself booked before she had met that quota which hey, that's fine. My problem isn't necessarily that I didn't get booked in as much as why there has to be a ratio based on creed in the first place. She had never a.) heard me perform live or b.) I never was given the opportunity to present a CD/press package for her to determine if she would like to book me when she did have a need for additional secular music in her coffeehouse. It's not whining when you're not even given an opportunity to present yourself.

2.) I'm proud of the music and songs I write as well as my 2 CD's. I'll put my songs and my talent up against anyone because I feel I DO have something to offer that comes uniquely from me as we all do. Kinda funny, but I always receive return engagements, and manage to sell a CD or sometimes 5-10 CD's at my gigs, so I must be doing something right. Personally, I don't think a judgement of one's talent can be made on hearing but one or two songs at a songwriter's showcase for example. In the first place, judgement's of talent or liking an artist or not are all opinion anyway.

3.) No one has a "built in" draw. Becoming a draw is something that's built up over time with relentless, passionate performing, and a by having a "buzz" develop which leads to a following. If the person doing the booking doesn't give you the opportunity to at least listen to your music/press kit to get an idea of style, talent level, and what other places you've performed at, they'll never know what kind of "draw" you'll be. At this level, or any level, there's no guarantee of an audience no matter who you are or how good you are. For example, I guess the "built in draw" wasn't working when U2 opened up for a local band called TALAS at a club back in the early 80's here in Buffalo, NY to a handful of people or when The Police (as in the band STING was the frontman for) came to the same venue on their first American tour and played to less than a dozen people. So, the argument of having a draw in the first place, doesn't fly with me. People have to be able to hear you first before they can make the determination based on not just your talent, but on their musical preferences and tastes to come and see you again. It's hard to understand the frustration's of booking oneself, performing at every type of venue possible, to every type and size of crowd possible if you don't or never have done it.

4.) To make a statement that the person being discriminated against is the one with the problem and they need to change their mindset is the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard!!! So I guess that when someone is being discriminated against because of race or gender it's their fault that they were born the wrong sex or skin color. All you have to do is look at how some people perceive anyone of Middle Eastern descent since 9/11 as terrorists. I suppose that they have the problem.

And lastly, 5.) I will, because I have an unbelievable will and determination, get a CD and press kit into this person's hands and attempt to get a booking there come springtime. WHEW!!!
davey O.

Hi Folks,

"Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread", but since the duct tape holding me back just broke, here I go!

First of all in my opinion this whole thread is about tolerance, or lack of same.

There is such a thing as a "social contract" which allows each of us to excercise our own faith-based beliefs, so long as we do not interfere with those of our neighbours.

I believe I have seen on these boards a double standard of sorts, wherein some folks seem to feel free to criticize the artistic work of others because it does not conform to their own belief system.

Were I to wade in and critique any number of what I consider to be sappy, overly sentimental lyrics in some Christian songs that have appeared on the forums, and especially if I critiqued them from the point of view that the story lines ( eg tearful prayer bringing rain, but the drought was not also a work of the Lord in the first place,)were beyond belief, I would offend many people.

I would respect that those songs were written within a context of belief, and my critiques would be regarding song structure, line scans, etc. In other words, how well written was the song within the parameters of its style.

But some of those same people apparantly feel free to levy value-based critiques upon songs in which there is a context of disbelief. A double standard.

A song comes to mind which still gets airplay. "Down on Main Street" by Bod Seeger. The song topped the charts a while back.

A careful listening to this song reveals the basic plot to be a down and out older man fixating on a teenage stripper, to the point of stalking her and following her home. A distastful notion at first glance.

However it IS a well written tune, which no one forced the public to buy. And was a good vehicle for the "sensitive tough guy" persona of the singer. One might even say there was some redeeming humanity in those lyrics.

I guess I can't say it better than to quote something said a long time ago," Judge not, lest ye be also judged".

Finally I would like to suggest that in future all the judges in JPF's song and lyric contests be required to pledge that if their objectivity in judging any work is compromised by their own personal religious beliefs, that they would refrain from voting for any songs in that category.

all the best

Peter Taos NM

Davey,

What I find hilarious is that I never mentioned your name in my post. Interesting to see that you ASSUMED that it was YOU I was describing.

I'll let everyone else form their own opinion on that. Here's my variation on an old cliche which is appropriate: "if the shoe fits.. wear it.. if not.. why do you need to explain to the world why it doesn't fit you?"

Brian

Brian,
In all honesty, I'm just trying to relate what happened to me with this particular venue. I don't really care who's playing where, or who's getting this gig or that. I have enough going on with my own music career to be concerned with. I do however, find you to be a very opinionated person (which is cool) that doesn't seem to like peole having a opinion differing from yours. Gotta go, I have a gig at 8:00 PM and we have to get there to load and setup. It's also starting to snow a bit. Ever notice how all these end o' the year months have a brrr on the end of 'em.
Take care all,
davey O.

Hey Brian!!!

You make it to Mexico yet?
If so have a 50 cent beer on me! I'll pay you back next time our paths cross. LOL

Thanks for puttin on the showcases!

all the best

Peter Taos NM

Judging, critiquing, writing, it all comes back to how well the words say what was intended of them, and do they have individuality, creativity, appeal, logic, believability, and flow.
Regards.
Graham

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http://www.songramp.com/homepage.ez?Who=grahamhenderson

Hi Everyone,
I may be off the topic a bit and have been a little behind in reading posts. Was there any decision based on if we could get feedback on the lyrics we entered? Well if anyone wants to I'd be interested in hearing feedback as to what people thought. I think I was in the 4 or 500 people range... 412 to be exact.. And also I've never seen so many people get hot under the collar on this heavy topic!
Thanks!
Brenda

[This message has been edited by Brenda (edited 11-25-2002).]

Brenda -

I think it would be appropriate at this point to post the lyrics in the lyric feedback forums if that is what you would like to get.

We did have a consensus that it was inappropriate to post feedback during the judging, but if the song is not a nominee - I would think its fair game at this point.

I wanted to bring this very educational (and later controversial) discussion back up. The first half is some of the most intelligent discussion this board has ever had.. the second half.. well.. you can probably skip the last page entirely and not miss much..

Brian