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Hi everyone,

I am new to this site and need some advice.
I have been trying to play the guitar for a little over 2 years now. At first (8 months)
I took formal lessons and got through all the basics using Mel Bays book1 (now on #2).
I have limited ability to play and can accompany myself with open chords. Bar chords are extremely hard for me at this point. (still trying though)

My problems are: (1) No matter how hard I try I still hit the wrong string with my right hand (using pick) a lot. In fact it
is very hard for me to get completely through a song without an error.

(2) I got so used to reading music to play that I can't seem to play without the music in front of me. And when I do play I try to do so without looking at the fretboard. When I do look at the fretboard I lose track of the song notation.

(3) Even though it took all of this time to understand the fretboard I have problems with the skills needed to put my fingers where they are supposed to be up and down different scales. Would I be better served to concentrate on one scale and go through that from A to Z before progressing on to another scale. Or should I learn each and every scale first. If I knew the fretboard was going to be such a hassle I would have
chosen the keyboard LOL.

Music theory is not a problem to me but applying it to the fretboard is. I don't know whether to continue or quit. I seem
to be addicted to the guitar though. I do get tired of all the practice which is starting to take the fun out of playing.
I practice about 2 hours daily (sometimes
more)

Thanks, Rick

If anyone can share experiences in getting over some of these problems I sure would appreciate some advice.

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Ricko, it sounds like you didn't have a super competent teacher showing you things, but that is merely an opinion as I don't know who you took lessons from.

Answers: 1) Have you ever had an exercise specifically designed to only work on picking?

2) Reading music means you need to keep your eyes on the page, doing otherwise isn't suggested.
2a) Playing without music in front of you is a memorization factor. If you're not reading the music, it's cool to look at your hands, there's no law that says you can't.

3) Yes, learn one scale. Get to know it. Branch out when you've got one down. The fretboard isn't as hard as you're making it out to be. But it can be daunting if you attempt to learn it all at once.

In my view it sounds like you're doing a good deal of practice, but it may be that you aren't focused on practicing efficiently. Where are you located? It might be possible to find a better teacher who can show you how to get things together faster.

Jody


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Rick,

I recommend you get a lot of songbooks with the accomopaniment chords to songs you like. Then play them a lot. Start out just strumming, don't worry about what strings you hit or miss, just generally try to make it sound "good".

After you've played a bunch of songs, try playing a simple "bass, strum". Start with one chord. Just use the root bass note (An a note for an am chord, etc.) Go as slowly as you have to in order to play the bass, strum evenly without mistakes. Still making mistakes? You're not going slow enough. There is NO SUCH THING AS TOO SLOWLY.Your first goal should be to play 5 bass, strums in a row without a mistake. Keep at it, even if it takes you a month to do the first 5...if it takes that long, you're not going slow enough.

You're doing fine so far, practice every day even if only for 15 minutes. That does you better than practicing two hours twice a week.

Go slowly, even if they're simple chords and you're well beyond that point in your playing...bass, strum and slow down. Eventually you'll do it quickly without mistakes.


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

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Jody,

Thanks for the quick reply. I think the teacher was ok but I didn't stick with him.

1. I haven't got any picking exercise, but I'll look around for some.

2. The only reason I mentioned the music reading is because I was afraid I was going to be totally dependent on reading to play.

3. You gave me the advise I was hoping for on scales. thanks

4. I might go out and take more lessons..
How effective is it to go it alone? Lots of
books out there...?

Thanks again, appreciate your advice.

Rick

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Mike,

Thanks for the reply. I do have a number of songbooks to draw from. One is Hank Williams
(sr) I know it's old stuff but he wrote simple and straight from the heart, using simple chords, maybe too simple - but fun anyway. Some other songbooks I have use techniques and chords that are difficult but I am still trying them anyway.

I'm gonna try that bass strum thing you mentioned, and I know how important SLOW is
but my mind sez speed up - I gotta get control of that, I guess.

How important is it to develop a repertoire of songs - Am I spending too much time
on serious practice, and not enough on the enjoyment part?

Thanks, Rick

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Hi,
besides learning the basics......
In my mind the only way to get better is to Practice....practice...practice......

You have been playing for a while...but, how often a week??.....How many hours??...
To me....this is key to developing confidence and skill....

just my dos centavos [Linked Image]
Take it easy,
Joe

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As far as repertoire goes, no matter what you intend to do in music (be a songwriter, artist, session player, band member, or amateur), it will help that you've played through and understand most of your favorite songs.

I recommend that my students learn to play every melody possible. That they should work them out by ear as well as reading them from songbooks and sheets. Hymns,Tv commercials, movie themes, any song you like. If a song sticks in your head while you are driving around, write it down, work it out and play through it at least once. After you've done a thousand or so, it gets easy.

One frequent mistake: don't just learn the notes and not get the rhythm right. Maybe the song is too fast. Then, slow down to the fastest speed you can play while making no mistakes.

[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 09-02-2002).]


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

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Hi,

Just strum first, forget about picking for now. Enjoy first. And don't stop when you make a mistake.

Hank Williams is great stuff to play anytime, even when you're an expert. The guy just wrote real good music.

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ricko,

i started playing guitar from books and playing by ear.

books are a great place to start i think. learn your money chords first ie: g d c f b e ... and so on. they are a great foundation to build on. simple strumming will help you get the chords down pat. then you can worry about the strumming when you can change between chords easily.

most of all don't get discouraged. everyone else practically has gone thorugh the same thing. i personally didn't take lessons, and if you have passion (which it sounds like you do) you will be suprized how far it will take you on your own.
keep pickin'
jt

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Mike,

I like the advice on playing favorite songs.
Using sheet music I normally practice the melody first so I know what it sound like, then practice the chords and try to sing the melody. It takes me quite a while to get one
down; it just doesn't happen on the more exotic finger-twisting chords though. And even though I understand basic chord
composition, I constantly find new and frustrating finger stretching, mind-bending
compositions. I.e, I can't stretch my fingers over five or six frets - No way.
I have tried and tried, just can't do it.
Maybe I need a smaller guitar LOL. When I get into those combinations of notes that give me trouble I try to substitute something else, but can't do it on the fly.
Also I have trouble with bar chords - I can
form them ok and got the theory begind them down, I just can't do them more than a minute or so. Therefore, I have a tendancy
to stay with the open chords.

Thnks, Rick

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Lagusaya,

Appreciate the response. Yeah, I enjoy the simplicity and great talent of Hank Williams
Sr. Some of his songs are still classic today. He (IMO) was the ultimate songwriter.
Very down to earth, simple and straight from the heart.

AS for thre struming advise: I do as you suggest but I found out that my fingers are learning the mistakes as well as the new stuff - I did'nt realize this until recently
but If I play something new and hit the wrong note somewhere, the darn fingers learn
that wrong note and I have a hell of a time
correcting it. So as you can guess, I do a lot of UN-learning.

Rick

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Rick, how large are your hands and are your fingers slender or thick? Think in terms of glove size. Do you wear small, medium or large? Also, do you have any problems with arthritis and what kind of work did you do in the Navy. Did you do a lot of manual stuff that caused a lot of wear and tear on your hands?

JeanB

[This message has been edited by JeanB (edited 09-02-2002).]


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Jt,

Thanks for the advise. I hear you - I'm at a point now (2yrs plus) where I am starting to work my way up the fretboard. But it feels like I'm starting all over, learning
the new positions for each note.


I do have the basic chords down (open position) and am getting better at switching from one to the other. However, I am running into a problem with bass runs. I find that trying to coordinate the rythm and melody of my voice to the bass runs difficult. I can sing the melody much better without the bass runs, but I like the sound of the bass runs. I think the problem
is coordinating the word syllables with the bass run timing.

At this point I have much more respect for the guitar than when I started - For me it has been one of the most challenging things I have ever undertaken. I think that learning the fretboard is one of the biggest
problems I have. I can see the simplicity of a piano keyboard- everything laid out in a straight line, octave by octave. But, the
guitar is not that way at all. It requires one BIG learning experience: How to find the notes on the fretboard - it isn't laid out like the keyboard - That one thing alone (fretboard logic) requires a LOT of time, excessively so for me anyway. I'm not going to quit. I am thoroughly addicted and have a love/hate relationship with the guitar
at this point. I just have to figure it out as I go and follow the expert advise from those of you who have gone before.

One other thing I am trying: Using a four track recorder I sing and strum On tracks one and two at the same time. Then go back
and add bass beats on track three. It doesn't always work though. Also I trying using a drum machine on track four. This method will give me (sometimes) a listenable
recording, but not the best. That's obviously due to my own inexperince. My goal
in music is to compose my own music (rythm, harmony, melody, etc.)

Sorry: didn't mean to write a book. LOL

Rick

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My mistake, that's the problem with these half-conversations. I should have made it clear. I do expect students to play for fun, as well as play a song fluidly, all the way through.

I find a common problem among beginning guitar players is that they never learn to play fluidly all the way through a song. That is because they have been practicing mistakes. You get better at what you practice. I have my students warm up each lesson by playing through the songs with me. We don't stop for mistakes...we're playing/rehearsing. Then we work on the lesson. At this time, I count slowly enough that the lesson is played without mistakes. The students are practicing perfectly.

The old saying is: practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.

Anyway, my mistake...I do expect people to play for fun, and the way to do that is to play without regard for mistakes. Play for fun, practice for improvement.



[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 09-02-2002).]


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

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Ricko,

Keyword here is "Neurolinguistics". You teach/train your muscles to remember certain movements. Just observe how you fold your arms. Do it now. OK? Now fold it the other way...felt funny, uncomfortable? Well, it's the same thing learning how to play chords. You have to train your fingers (that means lots of practice) to hold chords.

Nothin beats practice.

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You know what is also a factor. Thinking : "here is the part where I make a mistake."
I feel we often program ourselves to keep on making the mistakes. Somehow we have to rephrase that message in our heads. Instead of "here comes the mistake," we need to say, "here is the part where I jump to another fret." Our bodies will do what our subconscious minds tells it to do. Kind of metaphysical, but correcting my thinking helps me often.

JeanB


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Mike,

Thanks - I've been tryhing to practice and also play for fun (not at the same time tho).

In fact, when I sit down with the guitar for a session I have learned to practice FIRST,
because if I start out having fun I may not practice at all, which has happened at times.

The problem with practice is: practice what?
Note reading? Scales? Chords? Rythm?
Harmony? etc,,,,etc.... It seems the further
on I go the more there is to practice. Do you have a standard recommended practice progression? What do you practice (cant do it all) and what do you leave out? If I don't
practice note reading for example- I can tell
that my skill in that department will fall off even if I miss out on a day or two. Am I better served to just become proficient at one thing: Lead, rythm,etc. Or should I develop all skills equally. My goal is to write music, so I think I should tackle all, but thats almost impossible.

Rick

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Lagusaya,

I tried that folding arms thing and you are right, it does feel odd. And I know what you are talking about. The fingers, arm and shoulder muscles all have a kind of memory, and they each need to be exercised in practice. I sure wish I could find a "fun"
way to practice tho.

Rick

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JeanB,

Thamks for looking in. I understand what you are saying and I agree - I find that if I can completely shut down my mind (almost impossible to do for me) the fingers do a better job, but I haven't figured out how to control "shutting down the mind." There is always that "internal dialogue" going on.
However, there is no doubt that you hit on one of the most influencial aspects of playing the guitar - but I don't know of any sort of training that will help. Once in a while my fingers will remember tunes when my
mind is daydreaming off by itself, but it isn't a process that I can control. I guess the shortest route from the sheet music to the fingers would be: eyes, muscles, fingers.
But the mind wants no part of that, at least for me. How do you make your mind blank?

Rick

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Oh, I thought mine came that way. LOL

Just kidding. I have a constant dialog that runs in my mind too. When I can't make it behave I give the internal voice suggestions. It may be like right brain drawing. To train the left side of the brain to mind its own business you need to give it something to do. In drawing you keep it busy by letting it describe the lines you are drawing, (not the object just the direction etc.) Maybe you can let it describe the note or the string your fingers are going to. Everybody's going to think we are smoking something. LOL

JeanB

[This message has been edited by JeanB (edited 09-02-2002).]


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You ask about what to practice? Well, what's your goal(s)?

Secondly, practice doesn't make perfect, it makes things possible, as long as the technique is good. Noodling is just that, noodling. Perfection isn't a great idea to strive for cause things can always be improved. But making things possible is a reality and can be more fun.

That's my thought.

Jody


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JeanB,

Thanks for your insight. I guess we all have to struggle with mind control. appreciate the advice.

Rick

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Jody,

My goal, when I started out, was to be able to compose my own music, which requires all of the guitar playing skills. I have since toned that down a little, and am concentrating on site reading and scales. These appear to be the most important for me at this time. But, man is it boring.....
Gotta do it though. I just thought that there would be a logical progression of learning evolutions, is there? I need to set up a standard program of practice (I think).
I.E., 30 minutes site reading; 20 minutes scales; 15 minutes rythm...etc...and stick to it..I mean, isn't there an accpetable "standard" learning schedule for playing the guitar?

Rick


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