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#211963 05/08/06 04:24 AM
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Has anybody dealt with this?

I'm hoping to do a release concert for my first CD. Thought I'd do it at my own church, which means I have to go present a proposal at a committee meeting this week. (Just putting "proposal," "committee," and "present" in the same sentence makes me nervous, but it'll be okay. Gotta jump through hoops no matter what you're doing in life, right?)

Here's the thing....they are already telling me that the church will lose its tax-exempt status if I sell my CDs after the concert.

They said I have to be a non-profit organization in order to sell anything.

I have been to SO MANY concerts in churches in the past few years, and the artists ALL sold their CDs after the concert, and I find it hard to believe that they are all non-profit ministries.

Anybody know about this issue?

--Jean

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Hi, Jean,

I am certainly not an expert, so this is purely a lay person's opinion... but I am wondering why the CHURCH would lose its non-profit status if YOU sell your CDs after your concert ... if you get my drift...

If the church were selling the CDs, it might be different. But if the money is going into your pocket, how can it affect their status?

As I said, I am just a normal guy, not a lawyer... but that would be my question.

--- Ed


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I was with you JL and Ed on being skeptical about that, I've seen many bands play in churches and sell CD's and T-shirts, including Randy Travis when he did a gospel CD. I've bought CD's from local individuals (church members) who have simply played a few songs as part of the service and they had their CD in the foyer for sale. But I think there may be some truth in what your church is saying.

Somebody who actually knows what they are talking about will wiegh in on this soon, and this probably isn't the best example, but I found this:

http://www.consumerlaw.org/initiatives/test_and_comm/credit_counseling.shtml

Go down to "Improper Ties To For-Profit Businesses"

I have no clue what class of tax-exempt business your church is, and whether it falls under this part of the law, but that to me is saying if any function of a non-profit is run for the personal benefit of a member of the organization, that would be against the rules. So, since you are a member of the church, selling your CD's for your profit would indeed not be allowed. At least by the letter of the law.

I'll shut up now, because again Stu or somebody that knows what they are talking about will hopefully wiegh in.

[This message has been edited by Liszt Laughing (edited 05-08-2006).]


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It sounds to me that the reality is they just don't want you to perform in the first place and feel like telling you you can't sell CD's is the easiest way to get out of having you there. Because it's beyond absurd for them to bring that issue up in this scenario. If none of the money goes to the church, it doesn't even involve them. If it DID go to the church, they're non profit and thus the proceeds would be taken that way. I'd call a different large church in your town that has a lot of live music and ask them about your dilemna and ask if how they are able to present concerts without risking their non profit status (like one little artist performing is going to cause a major worldwide church to lose their non profit status in the first place) and when they stop laughing.. ask them to give your personal church a call to let them know it's okay. At least that is what I would do.

Brian

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Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JL:
Has anybody dealt with this?

I'm hoping to do a release concert for my first CD. Thought I'd do it at my own church, which means I have to go present a proposal at a committee meeting this week. (Just putting "proposal," "committee," and "present" in the same sentence makes me nervous, but it'll be okay. Gotta jump through hoops no matter what you're doing in life, right?)

Here's the thing....they are already telling me that the church will lose its tax-exempt status if I sell my CDs after the concert.

They said I have to be a non-profit organization in order to sell anything.

I have been to SO MANY concerts in churches in the past few years, and the artists ALL sold their CDs after the concert, and I find it hard to believe that they are all non-profit ministries.

Anybody know about this issue?

--Jean
</font>


Maybe you should change your church.I've never heard of such a thing.I've seen many a performer sing in church and sell their product with no trouble.Most indie Gospel artist don't get paid to sing in church,they may take up a "love" offering, but they are allowed to sell their CDs.

Everett


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I sang on a Christian rock album last fall that was actually created as a fund raising product through a church to benefit a local charity.

I wonder... if you're willing to donate your PROFITS from the sales of your CD for that one event to charity if it would take care of their reservations?

Just a thought... I think they're being really silly though.

Also, many churches actually run coffee houses. Try connecting with one of them. They might be more open to doing a release party.



[This message has been edited by Christine (edited 05-08-2006).]


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Thanks, guys!!! It is SO GOOD to be able to come on here and ask questions and get responses!!! Brian, you done good creating this organization and the website!

My plan was to either charge a small ticket price for the concert (because people tend to subconsciously believe they are getting something worthwhile if they have to pay for it), and if that was not okayed, I'd just take a "free will offering." That would help pay for posters and a little bit of stage decoration, stuff like that. I figured on signing and selling CDs before and after the concert.

I'd give a percentage of the door and a percentage of the CD sales to the church or a charity that the church supports.

I am also hoping to have my CDs for sale at the desk in the lobby on weekends, and would donate a percentage of those sales to charity as well.

It seems like a win-win to me. I can continue to pay my bills; the church gets a chance to bring people in who wouldn't necessarily come on Sunday; the church and/or a charity gets some more funds; and most important, I do my part to spread the gospel with my music.

I don't expect to make a wad of money, just recover a PORTION of what I've spent so far on this CD.

(FYI, I am already looking for another church because I'm not happy with quite a few things about this one....it's hard to leave when you have good people who are on fire for the Lord....but easier when you see how they are kept under somebody's thumb. They can't keep me under anybody's thumb, 'cause I answer to the higher authority when there's a difference of opinion...plus I have a little spunk mixed in with my sweetness. Can't help it. I think I was born that way!)

I've been told that the committee is really excited about the concert, wants it to happen, that they're just afraid of legal problems with CD sales. I think it would be silly of me to do the concert if I can't sell my CDs afterwards. I can't keep pouring money into making and recording my music, when it's never going to get out to people.

If somebody with legal expertise can advise me, that'll be great. In any case, I sure do appreciate the opinions and especially the shared shock and dismay y'all have expressed!

I don't give up easily. This whole project has seemed impossible from the get-go, so I figure there's no point in getting intimidated or discouraged just yet. There has to be a way to make this work.

I appreciate the responses so far, and as soon as I have any information to share, I'll post it here. I'm going to make those phone calls to other churches right now.

I hope I get some answers that way. Actually, I hope I get the answers I WANT. [Linked Image]

More later! Thanks for your responses! You guys are great!! --Jean

[This message has been edited by JL (edited 05-08-2006).]

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Well, I don't know what church you are dealing with, but it doesn't sound right to me.

I used to BOOK a church for meetings, concernts, film shoots, etc. As long as the CDs were sold in the Narthex (lobby) and not the church proper, we had NO problem with artist's selling their CDs after their concerts. If you DONATE some funds to them - say 50% of ticket sales or free-will offering, that shouldn't affect their status at all.

cheers,
Ms. 'Bird

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Does the church change it's status if they rent out the hall for a wedding and a caterer comes in and charges the people who are throwing the wedding? Does the church change its status if they have a gift shop and sell religious items themselves? Does the church change its status if they hold a pageant, charge admission, and pay the players? Sounds to me like somebody at the church either doesn't know what they're talking about, or as Brian said, is looking for an excuse to keep you out. Otherwise, as long as you are either renting the space or selling CDs and giving part of the proceeds to the church, you should be OK

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Okay, guys, here's the result of my frantic research yesterday. The basic answer is, my church worship committee was misinformed, confused, and full of beans.

You guys were right, and so was I. YES, I LOVE IT WHEN I'M RIGHT! YES, YES, YES!!! (sorry! regaining composure now)

Everything came together just in time since the committee meeting was last night (praying is always a great idea!).

I talked to a local church that does concerts all the time. The woman laughed at what I'd been told. She said thousands of churches would be in jeopardy if that was the case, because Christian artists play in churches all the time, and sell not only CDs, but also T-shirts, mugs, posters, etc., and they are NOT non-profit. They are making their living, supporting their families with their CD sales.


My friend's husband asked a lawyer in his firm whose area of expertise is non-profits and tax-exempt status. He laughed, too. He said that nobody would be able to have a guest speaker come to a college and sell his books after he talks, etc.

I was pretty sure they had to be mistaken. They got their advice from a lawyer who is not familiar with this area of law, and evidently didn't do a whole lot of research.

The only possible problem is if the church was making a profit from the concert. It's FINE if I make a profit. (As we know, the money is made from the CD sales, not the concerts.) A donation to the church is fine, and I think it's the right thing to do. For this, I'm going to designate a particular charity, and give 10% of the door and 10% of the CD sales. I'm hoping that the tickets will offset some expenses of putting on the concert.

Everything's cool now. The committee approved the concert unanimously, and even advised me how to speed up approval by the next higher committee, so we can set a date and get advertising into gear.

My PR person came to the meeting and did the talking about the legal stuff, advertising, and other details. I'm a musician. I'm severely lacking in PR skills! [Linked Image] She was great! Once that legal concern was quelled by my fearless helper, I got a lot of smiles, enthusiastic "yes" votes, and praise for my music and my desire to give a concert. Cool, huh? It wasn't NEARLY as painful as I thought it would be. I was picturing them firing questions at me, and getting bogged down with unimportant details. It was almost pleasant for me. [Linked Image]

I'm the first one to try to do this at my church, though. (Yes, I know, "Get with the times, people!") So they are calling me a pioneer....haha! Once again, I get to pave the way, when I don't really know what I'm doing, and I don't think I have the personality for being a pioneer. But I guess that little bit of spunk in me is enough. God is taking care of most of it!

Thanks so much for your input, everybody. Brian, calling other churches was a great idea!

My PR person thinks this kind of stuff is FUN, for some odd reason! I say the FUN part starts as soon as the committees are out of the way. [Linked Image]

Okay, shutting up soon. I'm just so excited that this is going forward!!! And I DON'T have to make myself a non-profit organization (AS IF I have a chance of even recovering what I've spent on this CD, let alone seeing a PROFIT---Hahahahaha!). Thanks again for helping with this, and for your encouragement!

I've said this before....Where would I be without JPF? You guys are GREAT! --Jean

[This message has been edited by JL (edited 05-09-2006).]

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You said :
--------------------------------------
"The only possible problem is if the church was making a profit from the concert. It's FINE if I make a profit."
------------------------------

Again, this seems ridiculous. It should be no different than the church doing any other kind of fundraising, whether they're selling candy or having a Lawn Fete.

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That's great, Jean! Glad you got it all straightened out -- and pretty painlessly, too.

As for your saying, "Once again, I get to pave the way, when I don't really know what I'm doing" ... Don't you realize that ANYONE who paves the way NEVER knows what they're doing? [Linked Image] It's almost that way by definition... [Linked Image]

--- Ed


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Stu--You might be right. I'm not sure about that part...but I found out enough to know that I'm okay doing the concert and selling the CDs. Haha!

Ed--That is so true! Haha!

In this case, what I meant was, it's new for the church, AND it's new for me. An artist with more experience could have informed the church right off the bat that there was no problem with the CD sales, etc. Know what I mean?

Whew! I'm just so relieved and happy that I got approved, and it's moving forward! Yay!! --Jean

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JL,
Good deal... I figured there was some "confusion" coming from the leaders at your church. The "mystery" is now solved. It's a new thing for them, but now everyone can move ahead with confidence.

Note: I came in a bit late on this post, but after getting briefed up on it, I see that things are working out now!
As they say, all that ends well, is well! [Linked Image]

Take care & may God bless your efforts!
Michael

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[This message has been edited by Michael Borges (edited 05-12-2006).]


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Got some new info on this since my last post. The standard practice is for the artist to charge a fee to the church, then let the church collect a "free will offering" or sell tickets to recover their cost. That way, there is no question raised with the legal people about whether the church is providing space for someone to run a business.

It's the same thing as when a non-profit like a university pays a speaker's fee to an author, and let's him/her sell their books after the talk. The fee is an expense for the school to educate their students and faculty, and the book sales are a separate thing.

The "performance" (concert or talk or whatever) has to meet the criterion of being a part of the non-profit organization's primary purposes and goals. In my case, that is true, because the concert is an outreach to the community and a way to spread the gospel.

Now to come up with a fee.....hmmm...some Christian bands get thousands of dollars, plus housing, all meals, and some complimentary tickets to the show...and that is a discount price because it's a church...and the church usually loses money on the deal, but are okay with it because they consider the concert a vital part of their ministry.

Do you think $5000 would be too much? *grin*

I think I will figure out how much I am going to spend on posters, flyers, other publicity, and some simple decoration, and set my fee based on that. Hopefully, there will be enough people attending and feeling generous so that the church can recover the fee they pay me.

There sure is a lot to learn!

Thanks for your reply, Michael! [Linked Image] I'm so glad, too, that it's working out.

FYI, the phrase is, "all's well that ends well." You got me all confused with your MODERN ENGLISH, guy! Haha!

Thanks, all of you, for your input on this!!! --Jean

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Interesting stuff. Artists sell their CD's at Cowboy Church here in Nashville all the time, so I knew it could be done. This being an election year, there have been rumblings about churches and their non-profit status. That's probably had a lot of churches being overly cautious.

Good advice, as usual.

All the Best,
Mike

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J
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Got this issue all worked out.

I just got final approval from my church (committee #3!) to do this CD release concert. They are writing up a contract.

In case anyone is interested, here's how they're handling it:

The church will pay me to do the concert
The church will collect a "free will offering" from the audience
I will sell my CDs before and after the concert
I will later make a donation to charity as I see fit

I'm so tickled that they have decided this concert is a good thing, and worked out the money issues.

I will use the fee they pay me to cover my expenses in putting on the concert. If there's fee money leftover, I will donate a chunk of that to charity, along with what I'm donating after the CD sales. Now I just have to make a decision on which charity to support.

This is turning out to be a win-win, and I'm so excited to see how this is working out before my eyes!

And, big bonus for me, I didn't have to attend that last committee meeting. Someone from the previous committee went and pitched the concert to them, and evidently did a good job because everybody seems very enthusiastic now. (Big change from "we've never done this before, so it must be bad" that I first ran into.) I'm grateful to the committees, but I still don't like to attend those meetings, especially if I am one of the agenda items, and I have to field questions. Whew! I'm happy that I got to miss the last one!

Just thought I'd share the outcome with you all. Thanks for your input and help with this!

I'm so excited! I feel like God gave me this music, and now I'm just so shocked and thrilled that He's making a way for me to share it with a wider audience. I'm amazed at how this is unfolding before my eyes, and I seem to be just along for the ride! Haha!

AND, tomorrow night I have my first rehearsal with the band. I cannot wait! It's going to be a blast!

OH, and you are all invited to the concert! I know, we don't even have a chapter here...haha...but maybe somebody will happen to be in the area on this date:

Friday, August 11th, 7:00p.m.
Manchester, Missouri
(western suburb of St. Louis)

It's going to be a great evening! I have a group of fun-loving musicians to play with, and I intend to create an atmosphere like we are playing for some friends in their livingroom.

I know it's a long shot, but I would love to have somebody from JPF there, so please know you are invited! --Jean

[This message has been edited by JL (edited 05-25-2006).]

Joined: Feb 2002
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BTW - where is your CD online so we can check it out?


Boo...my name is Doug
Joined: Dec 2003
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J
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J
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 823
I'm still working on that!

My husband is creating the website for me, and it's probably a little lower in his list of priorities than it is on mine. For me it's real close to the top.

Of course, the price is right, and he does know what he's doing. And I can sit here with him and describe what I want and don't want...so far we've been working together on it without any marital strife. [Linked Image]

I can email you some mp3 samples, if you want....though I doubt you are that desperate! Haha! Hopefully, I'll have a website up soon.

Nice of you to ask. [Linked Image] --Jean

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ya, sure, when you get a chance e-mail me a sample...if you already have a sample in mp3 format... If you don't, you don't need to go to all the trouble of putting it to mp3 and all that - i'll wait until you get your website up. Thanks!


Boo...my name is Doug
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 823
J
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J
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 823
Lizst Laughing--

I sent you an email. It sounds a hundred times better from the CD in my stereo! I miss all the bass tones on my little computer speakers.

--Jean


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