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trush Offline OP
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Is it unrealistic to think if you review someones' lyrics that they would review yours? I'm from Oklahoma (don't hold that against me) and we have a tradition of tit for tat. It works well when everyone participates...and things get done without anybody feeling left out or cheated...it comes with an unstated understanding of the rules...this idea isn't working very well here...I wonder why?

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Look Terry, this is a free and open "society" of like-minded individuals. "Individual" being the key word. It is not mandatory, nor should it be, that we review every lyric that gets posted. Realistically, there are hundreds to pick from. I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't have that kind of time. So, I look for something interesting, and maybe current. Perhaps to converse with another writer in "real time". who's ever on line here I guess. I will not be restricted, nor will I be forced so I suppose you get what you get when you get it.

[This message has been edited by ptondreau (edited 04-03-2004).]

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Cool you answered my question regarding you and your indivduality....silly me to think the reason we were here was to help each other...100's....hmm I don't count that many....you must be busy...well now I have i one less to consider...if your going to dis me at least use your own words not mine.

"Being fair is a state of grace "

[This message has been edited by trush (edited 04-03-2004).]

[This message has been edited by trush (edited 04-03-2004).]

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If someone reviews my song, I make an effort to review one of theirs. My time is limited, too, but I try to return the favor. I really am grateful if someone takes the time to listen to something of mine (okay, I only have one song available for listening so far, but...) and comment, so I like to do the same for them. I think it's common courtesy.

Might be hard to find or remember who has commented, though, so a person might miss somebody. I wouldn't take it too personally or seriously. Actually, I only got 3 comments, I think, on my one song. I try to review songs that are sort of "up my alley" style or content-wise, and don't pay that much attention to who wrote them.

I hope your experience here becomes more positive. --JL

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Terry,no dis was intended. I apologize if that's what it sounded like. I have reviewed your stuff and you have reviewed mine. And so too many others have reviewed both of our stuff. By the way, there are over 227 pages of lyrics on "lyric forum one" alone.If you go back over the posts ,you will see. I don't get where you feel that it's not happening. Could you be more specific?

[This message has been edited by ptondreau (edited 04-03-2004).]

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I don't always do a review on somebody who has done one of mine Terry.
Most times do but if I don't really have anything to add, and it isn't wearing a zero, I prefer to critique a virgin, or one that the tile grabbed me enough to look at, and I feel I have something to offer.
Tit for tat as per individuals can be a bit non productive I feel, where if we all just pull our weight by commenting where we feel most productive, I feel the forum as a whole benifits.
Graham

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Hi JL....thanks for your comment....your reply is exactly what i was referring to accomplishes....common courtesy. I don't feel put upon by recipocating I feel a sense of fairness. Maybe it's not a politically correct way of doing life but in my experience in business and in my personal business the idea works quite well. Is it mandatory....I hope not...trush

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hey PT....I know when I'm being dissed....that really doesn't matter though...I was posing a question and an opinion in general terms not specifics...I can't imagine why you would think I was referring to you since you have been reviewing my lyrics and i yours...If I think my lyrics aren't receiving enough attention I'll say so and bump myself. My idea of tit for tat works in my life naturally not under some required rule of critiquing behavior and offers a way to approach fairness from my perspective....I see alot of 0,1.2s falling off into the pit of no return...just thought i'd share my thoughts...trush

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Hey Graham....However you do it is fine with me....I just felt the concept is workable, maybe only for a few...hell maybe only me....there are lyrics i literally cringe at when i read them. There is no hard fast rule just a question and opinion....terry

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No, I don't review someone else's stuff just because they reviewed mine. On the other hand, if someone had an interesting comment on something I wrote (I've only posted a song once, remember--I don't do criticism well), I will check out some of their stuff just because I'm curious where they're coming from. And if I like what I read, I may check out new stuff they wrote as and if they post it.

There's a surprising number of Twisted Minds that participate in these forums, and I'm really happy to see it.

Joe

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by trush:
Hey Graham....However you do it is fine with me....I just felt the concept is workable, maybe only for a few...hell maybe only me....there are lyrics i literally cringe at when i read them. There is no hard fast rule just a question and opinion....terry</font>


Hi there Terry,
In your response to Graham I saw something worthy of mention. It's true that the lyrics of other may make you cringe sometimes, as yours or mine may do the same to others!(laugh here)
Therefore, it may not always be the best thing to review a lyric that makes you cringe, even if it's a reciprocal effort after somebody reviews your own.
I've preferred to review lyrics I feel comfortable with, or see something in them which lights me up a little...maybe having something I can offer a decent response to.
Your tit-for-tat is a lovely thing, and I respect the heck out of it. More people need to be that way, I'm sure you agree.
Yet I'm unsure it would always serve well in the lyric reviews. Lyrics are such a touchy thing, personal, and vast in style... they can be difficult enough without feeling obligations. [Linked Image]

-gary

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Hey Ceeeesco...I hear you....and maybe your right but I still do it even when i might cringe because of my desire to be consistent....having said that...i may not make the first effort for that very reason....this is where i'm not consistent...i will sometimes make the first effort or may wait for someone to make the effort...either way it works for me...thanks for your response.....trush

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When you read a lyric that makes you cringe - isn't that feedback the writer needs too?

Generally I do try and make an effort to check out the posts by folks who comment on mine - I agree that's common courtesy. Sometimes time prevents me from commenting but I do make an effort whenever its reasonable for me. To a large extent I also agree with Graham - if a thread has sufficient input without my joining in, I'll look for some that haven't received replies and see what I can add there.


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Hi, Terry.

There are a lot of people who drop off lyrics without supporting others. Some of them don't even come back to read the comments and if they do, they certainly don't acknowledge the efforts of the others. That may be why some of the regulars take a wait and see attitude toward new posters. (Once burned twice shy and all that.)

There are a few people on the board who post frequently and don't return the favor. You will figure out who they are eventually. They ARE being ignored because they rarely offer community support. They deservedly have low numbers.

There are people who read the works of others when they want one of theirs reviewed. They follow the tit for tat principle.

There are some people who read the others and post a critique whether they have a song or not to be reviewed. Support with no ulterior motive. No worrying about exact exchange. To have a friend, be a friend.

Also , be aware that just because there is a 30 next to a topic, doesn't always mean that there are 30 critiques or 30 people reading them. Look at enough of them sometime, and you will see that out of 30, 15 or more are thank you notes for the critiques. Also, sometimes people are having a dialogue and it isn't even about the lyric.

Just be a friend, Terry. It will come back to you tenfold. It may take a little time, but it will come back to you. [Linked Image]

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trush Offline OP
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Hi Jean....Well tit for tat although it may seem crass to some is really my belief about giving and receiving...I guess if I was more enlightened I would expect nothing in return for my efforts but I must admit I do...."being a friend and it will come back to you ten-fold"...I believe that ...it's a natural consequence...I'm not evolved enough to not want to remind everyone of that in my own crude way....Thank you so much for your insight of the workings of the board.....i'm not being condescinding I really do get what your saying and I appreciate your opinion....thanks...trush

[This message has been edited by trush (edited 04-05-2004).]

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Sorry, Terry. That sounded preachy. Guess it was. I apologize.

I don't think tit for tat is crass. It does involve a lot of bookkeeping though. To get 10 responses, you would have to read at least 10 lyrics. it would be logical to assume that the only ones who would be obligated to read your lyric would be those whose lyrics you just read. The people you have just read, may not read and post on the same day or even week you posted on. . By the time they get back to return the favor, your song may have slipped off the page and they are unaware you even have a new song up unless you tell them. A lot of people don't go beyond the first page when posting.

Additionally there is the concept of obligation when it comes to the tit for tat thing. Many people want to return the favor and do try but who wants to feel that they have to?

As mentioned before by others, obligatory critiques don't always have the best result. The person who could have been the most help to you may not be one of those obligated to read yours.

I do believe that if everyone followed the concept of offering support generously and didn't worry about reciprocation, there wouldn't be so many low numbers on the pages. There would be enough support to go around. I haven't been on the lyric or mp3 boards much lately, but when I was active, there were several regulars who went on zero patrol. They just did it to help the community. Often they were people who regularly had plenty of support.

I understand your frustraton. You have supported plenty of people. Some of them have returned the favor evenly, many of them haven't.

On other boards I have visited, there are rules about posting 3 critiques for every lyric or song you post. The rule doesn't work. It's ignored and I really haven't seen it enforced effectively.

The one thing I have noticed though, is that the people who try to support as many people as possible eventually receive it back. Maybe not in the same week or month they post, but eventually.
Anyway, take care. Perhaps some of those who haven't been doing their part will read these discussions and feel inspired by them.

JeanB




[This message has been edited by AKA JeanB (edited 04-05-2004).]


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JeanB, you said it very well. A lot of things on message boards get "Lost In Translation," but in the end, if you are as nice as you can be and supportive of others, it tends to come back to you that way.

I don't believe in tit-for-tat per se, but if someone does me a courtesy, I do my best to return it. I don't want to get into all that bookkeeping but I tend to try to keep the ledger balanced in my favor. In other words, I try to do more for others than they do for me. I don't like the feeling that someone has done more for me than I've done for them but I also won't keep doing for others who do not appreciate my efforts.

I don't want anyone to feel obligated to me. They can freely choose to return a favor or not and it doesn't bother me. At the same time, if someone *never* returns a favor, it becomes a useful way to weed out those who aren't interested in my "friendship."

Van


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Hey Buzz....I'm in Houston visiting my father who lives with my sister....she wanted to know why I spend so much time on the computer and I was telling her about this post here...she said the idea of tit for tat in our family came from our beloved mother who taught us religios ideas in different ways...my sister said this idea was one of her favorites..."do unto others as you would have them do unto you"...sis says that I ran so hard against religion that I had to find different phrases to explain my core beliefs...she's a pretty smart kid.....anyway I don't run a ledger keeping track it's a guide I guess....it works for me and I guess in religious terms it could work for all of us.....god forbid...my bad boy reputation would suffer if folks thought I was being religious....funny how things go in circles....trush


[This message has been edited by trush (edited 04-05-2004).]

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by trush:
hey PT....I know when I'm being dissed....that really doesn't matter though...I was posing a question and an opinion in general terms not specifics...I can't imagine why you would think I was referring to you since you have been reviewing my lyrics and i yours...If I think my lyrics aren't receiving enough attention I'll say so and bump myself. My idea of tit for tat works in my life naturally not under some required rule of critiquing behavior and offers a way to approach fairness from my perspective....I see alot of 0,1.2s falling off into the pit of no return...just thought i'd share my thoughts...trush</font>


Well, I guess you handed me my mouth.

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Hey trush,

Your mom sounds very wise. I think "do unto others..." is a wonderful way to live and that's how I try to be. However, I don't think tit-for-tat is within the spirit of that philosophy (no offense intented to you or anyone in your family).

I'm not saying tit-for-tat is the worst way to be either. In fact, sometimes it's downright appropriate. I just think you set yourself up for disappointment when you expect others to give back what you give. To do unto others as you would have them do unto you, implies no requirement that they do the same, although the world would definately be a better place if more people tried to live that way.

Buzz


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Thanks for all the comments....my version of do unto others (tit for tat) probably will never be understood by anybody but me and thats o.k.....I'm used to being misunderstood....as far as setting myself up for disappointment....that ain't going to happen....I'm completely satisfied with my approach to life....it works for me....i'll continue doing what i do and i'm sure everyone will as well....THIS IS AN ATTEMPT AT HUMOR....If everybody would do what I say this world would be great!....Thanks again for your opinions....trush

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I love JPF and have gained a lot of valuable information and insight by "surfing" through posts but I have found it useless to drop off lyrics every now and then on the critique forums unless you plan on becoming a permanent part of those boards.

I've posted lyrics for critique and out of courtesy and at the moderators suggestions, I've left my views on five other posts but as Jean has stated, if your not a regular (and I'm not) then your effort could fall on deaf ears for a while. Consequently, I don't leave lyrics anymore.

If your gonna leave lyrics for critique, it also doesn't help if you start a topic on a controverial subject that you find yourself in the minority opinion on. lol Should this happen, don't waste your time on the feedback forums.

Again, I do love JPF but discrimination is alive and well! lol Mind your Ps' and Qs'!.

Eric


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>I've left my views on five other posts<

And my guess is there are more than 5 replies to your posts unless folks felt like they couldn't relate at all.

Discrimination is when folks make an assumption about you based on your race, creed, color, etc. A one time poster not getting 20 replies is not discrimination. Neither is first taking the time to reply to someone you have an established rapport with before replying to someone you don't know.

One more reason you may see folks wait to respond (and this is coming from someone Jean has called a "zero hero" because I do try and make sure newcomers don't go away empty): A number of folks post a few first time lyrics in the feedback forum solely as a self advertisement. The songs were completed years ago and in some cases even recorded. They're not looking for feedback, just exposure. They don't participate in reviewing others and diss any critique or suggestions.

So yes folks can be cautious or conservative with their time. But unless your out there reviewing others and providing feedback, who exactly is it that is supposed to provide the feedback to you?

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Marty listen here

Is there a setting on the digital delay that will allow me to think before I speak?


Marty my home

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Reviews = one persons opinion = worthless....

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SB -

100,000+ posts disagree with you.

Personally, I think taking the time to discuss what is good and bad about a song helps us write better songs. Occasionally I could be wrong but I've seen plenty of instances that would prove me right.




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Marty listen here

Is there a setting on the digital delay that will allow me to think before I speak?


Marty my home

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again!
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i think expecting that reviews be offered as items of trade might result in people posting reviews even when they didn't have anything useful to say -- just because they felt like they needed to "pay someone back."

i say people should just review whatever strikes them, for whatever reason, and only when they have something useful to say.

but then, i don't participate in the song reviews... so who am i to judge what works?


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kit malone
http://www.kitmalone.com

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Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SBComposer:
Reviews = one persons opinion = worthless....</font>



Oh, c'mon. Admit it. When someone tells you they like what you do, you think they are smart, perceptive, honest; and you value their opinion.

It's only the ones that DON'T like what you do that are worthless.

Come to think of it, I'll bet you don't even think your own opinions are worthless.

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I think you have nailed it with that answer, Truman. Everyone knows that positive responses are merely back patting acts of kindness, unless of course, they occur on our posted songs, LOL.

JeanB


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