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This week's topic is brought to you by none other than our own Jean B...

Does age matter? You can answer this with respect to anything that you want--Your own aspirations, the biz, songwriting, getting signed as an artist...whatever--just answer [Linked Image]



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Age cetainly matters in the music "biz"

Just like it matters in show "biz" and corporate "biz"

It's perception, to be sure, but it certainly matters.

As an old duffer, it makes me angry, but as a lifetime player in this game I remember sweeping other talented old duffers out of my way.

It's Ok....

bob Young

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by adw246:
er than our own Jean B...

Does age matter?

</font>



Of course. In everything. Sometimes it's a positive and sometimes a negative; but it always matters.

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I think age matters to a certain degree when it comes to performance for some audiences. The reason that age matters is largely the fault of the music industry and their promotion decisions. We have a huge population of middle aged people. They like the music that their generation creates and they have just as much "buying" power as the younger groups, if not more. More and more of the baby boomers are becoming computer literate and are adapting their consumer habits. The baby boomer music groups are enjoying success with reunions and so forth. Even younger people switch on the "oldies" music on the radio.

The Internet is empowering people to listen to what they want, regardless of the marketing of the big labels. More and more people are downloading the 99 cent MP3's. Even the Christian labels are beginning to clue into this and are offering single downloads. As the MP3 players become more affordable, they will even be included along with the standard cassette and CD/DVD players in cars stereo systems.

Songwriters and performers need to take a serious look at Internet promotion and realize that the Internet is the future. Radio stations also need to tune into this idea and they will be able to see what the public likes by the most popular downloads.

Once performers become more independent of big labels, I think the songwriters only will come back into the picture in a big way. There are a lot of great singers and bands that need material. The emphasis will go back to the song and the age of the songwriter won't matter. The Internet will make this possible. If the songwriters have their music where the performers can hear it, it is just a matter of a mouseclick to hook up and collaborate in this way.

We need to get away from the idea of making millions from music. We need to make a comfortable living. We don't need millions. We can offer our music for a reasonable price because the middleman will be involved less. We don't have to pitch the music to label executives. We can pitch it directly to the public.

All this is already beginning to happen and soon the time will come that everything will be about the music and not about traditional marketing methods. So keep on writing and singing. Music is what is important.

By the way, a lot of people who don't like to purchase over the internet for fear of identity theft, will start purchasing because credit card companies like American Express are selling cards that can be used just like a credit card on the Internet and at other places. They are like phone cards can can be purchased for specific amounts. That is a terrific idea.

Just my opinion, but I think I am right and I believe my theories will prove themselves in 3 years or less.


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It sure does.
And I say this from the viewpoint of a not really a performer but because he is old he doesn't let that stop him performing performer/writer.
At sixty six. Today is very important. Tomorrow may happen so I better do something about making provisions for that today just in case.
Yesterdays all become where the knowledge and ideas I use today all came from.
Bar for the ones I got from today of course.
Or from thinking about the maybe of tomorrow.
20 years ago I would never have thought of doing a rock version of some of the classics.
Heck. 5 years ago even I didn't know I could do more than scribble a few words for fun and profit, or plunk out a few melodies to them on guitar.
And do a very bad version of Walk Don't Run.
Yes age does matter.
Today I got the first step toward doing just that done. And New Years Eve may never be the same again if I can sell the idea to my really are performer friends.
Apart for the odd boy genius, them young whippersnappers just haven't lived enough, failed enough, strived enough to know their butt from their elbow.
Sure they can rock in looking all hunky, wack a few riffs at the chicks in the crowd, and goodbye yesterday's hero. The new idol has arrived.
Then he eventually gets old and realises he may be past it in the pull the pussykitten department, but he sure has learned a lot along the way, so he starts creating his own stuff.
And ya know what?
I bet he suddenly realises he is even better than he thought he was when he was dodging knickers.
And so he sits down at the breakfast table eating his oatmeal and sipping the prune juice, being thankful for today, and knowing this could be the day that he does something that will have him remembred for much better reasons than his being the bloke who did a real good version of Loee loee 3 nights a week back in the old days.
Graham


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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by AKA JeanB:
We need to get away from the idea of making millions from music. We need to make a comfortable living. We don't need millions.</font>


JeanB:

Nobody's ever needed millions, but it beats the hell out of a comfortable living - whatever that is - every time. The American Dream was never about a comfortable living and never will be.

Super stars and those wanting to be one themselves are about as American as apple pie and hot dogs. The comfortable living idealogy simply reminds me of what the Russian Revolution promised to deliver and we all know what came of that nonsense.

Most musicians may have to settle for a comfortable living, but their goals will always be set considerably higher than that.

That's show business...

P.E. Knudsen


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age will not matter soon, but it matters now. I seemed to have awaken too late in my life to capture the golden ring, as it is,so to speak,
but I suppose I could find my way if I keep plugging at it.
As far as performers making millions goes, that's our fault as consumers. We paid those exorbant prices for those products that the industry laid out in front of us. Shame on us.

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Having turned 40 in September, the issue of my age, coupled with the fact that I decided back in 2000 to start releasing my own CD's independently, and eventually start touring regionally to support them makes me wonder if I'm truly nuts!!! [Linked Image] I do however get asked for ID all the time, and am told that I look like I'm in my late 20's or early to mid 30's...that's good, but I would feel no compulsion to lie about my age [Linked Image] And, I can't help but agree with what Graham said; as much as I would like to think that doing this and having this kinda drive in my 20's (actually I did, but it was for playing bass in rock bands, not for writing my own material) would have changed the outcome, I don't think realistically that I would have been as good of a songwriter as I am now. and that comes from the experiences of not only the successes I have had, but more importantly, the failures.

The things that keep me going and continue to amaze me are my absolute love of creating, writing songs and performing them, as well as the suprising vast crossover appeal my music has had. I have literally had CD sales to people aged 15 to in their 70's. I often wonder why record labels aren't more in tune with artists with a wider appeal than ones pinned down and marketed to demographic. I guess "marketing" is the key factor.

I have come to the realization that I will never be a wealthy person from doing this, and I agree with Jean's statements in finding ways to make a LIVING at doing this. I have set some realistic, attainable goals for myself, but have refused to put a timetable on them as others have suggested, because, I don't believe you can put a limit of time on creativity and the desire to do this. I'll know when it's time to stop, and it will be a decision that involves a long discussion with my incredibly tolerant and supportive wife. That being said, there are times when I do wonder what the hell I'm doing at my age!!! Quitting is not an easy thing to consider; I liken it to addiction, and it would be very hard to give up music the way I'm doing it right now, and be around musical instruments, in much the same way it must be difficult for an alcoholic to be around people that are drinking.

In the times when I travel, it's really cool to go to other towns and see the flyers of other folks doing the same thing you're doing, sometimes seeing the same flyers posted in consecutive venues I have performed at. It gives you a sense of some type of brotherhood and sisterhood of performing singer songwriters and that maybe you're not as crazy as you think.

In regards to the internet, I like many others, have my CD's available at CD Baby, but sales have been sluggish to say the least, and I wonder if it is for the reasons Jean stated. It's not like I don't market the crap out of it. It's on my flyers, my CD's, the postcard handouts at my shows, on my website with a link. I can't begin to try and figure it out...

In any event, I feel that I have something to offer...I feel like I can build an audience and continue to tour, because I really believe in my material and the proof is in the CD sales at shows and the way people react to my music when it's performed live. I really didn't start pursuing the touring thing seriously until about a year and a half ago when my good friend Jeffrey Mikulski started doing shows with me playing guitar and mandolin. In that 18 month span, we have averaged 80 dates a year (we count our year from when we started playing together - Sept. - Sept.) and have expanded our touring region to 5 states, NY, PA, OH, KY and IN. I do all of the booking myself, make up the promotional materials, and Jeff and I record and manufacture the product. On top of it all, Jeff runs a small production music studio, and I work full time at a local music store.

In closing, yes, youth may still be king as far as the music business goes, but I can't envision what's being put out by today's youthful artists as something we'll all be listening to in 20 years. I want to write material that trancends the label of coming from a particular decade. Great topic...

Best to all of us "oldies"
Davey O.

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http://www.cdbaby.com/daveyo2
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[This message has been edited by 3daveyO3 (edited 03-27-2004).]

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Age certainly matters in a 53 year old guy as far as "playin' out", tourin'... I just no longer want to be "havin'" to be somewhere. As much as I enjoy playing music; to have to be at the Music Cafe every Wednesday, Shenanigans every thursay, Timbuctu Friday and Timbuctwelve Saturday no longer appeals to me! Age means nothing to ME as a songwriter!!!

See you I have to play in timbuckthree tonight! R.T.

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by AKA JeanB:


The Internet is empowering people to listen to what they want, regardless of the marketing of the big labels. More and more people are downloading the 99 cent MP3's.
</font>


Yes, Jean, but what are they downloading? Overwhelmingly, it is the big hit records that are being downloaded in the greatest numbers. Independent artists are not making much headway on the net. There is no real indication that many people are out there scouring the net so that they can spend a buck on an artist they've never heard of.

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Who'she cynic now, Knute.

I think Jean might be saying that people need to thing of music as a way to make a living.

You don't have to be a multi gazillionaire to be a success in show biz.

People should think of it as a gig...

that's what I've done my whole life...
It's provided me a nice living....
Am I disappointed that it didn't make me a gazillionaire..?

Not at all...

Bob

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Bob:

I really wasn't being cynical, just candid. When the average Joes and Jolenes quit buying lottery tickets with hopes of no longer being just average I may then believe Americans don't want it all.

Most musicians will settle for decent living out of necessity, but even you would not have run from super star status had you been so lucky.

Rationalization has never been the American way...

P.E. Knudsen


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As a songwriter age doesn't matter. No one cares if you're twenty or sixty if you wrote a good song. As a performer it matters a great deal in pop music. Country music is a whole different ball game. Look at the two finalist of last years Nashville Star, both around 40 years old. They beat out teenagers, twenty and thirty something's. They beat out sexy young women and handsome young men. And look at Buddy now, two high charting singles and the sky's the limit. At 35 years old I was approached by three different Nashville mangment/publishing companies wanting to represent me. Each one told me my age was no concern in country music. I passed on all offers as I have no desire to be a performer, but in the end if you're a country artists you're window of opportunity is opened longer than a pop artists.

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TrumanCoyote:
Yes, Jean, but what are they downloading? Overwhelmingly, it is the big hit records that are being downloaded in the greatest numbers. Independent artists are not making much headway on the net. There is no real indication that many people are out there scouring the net so that they can spend a buck on an artist they've never heard of.

</font>


I've always said this and I believe it to this day. No matter what technology comes along, no matter how new music is delivered to us there will always be the big stars, that's not going to change. I believe the independent artists will see no more success with the advancement of technologies because there is so much competition on that level. There are a million and one indie artists on the net trying to get noticed and I've seen no indication that any of them are selling more records or getting more exposure, at least not as a whole to a measurable extent. The Internet is so clogged with inde artists it's like one big cluster. The big star will never go away. We need the big star, they represent success, dreams, money, etc., and those are things everyone relates to, especially younger people and kids.

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I'm not sure that age matters to the public as much as we think it does. If you're selling music, rather than pure image, age isn't as big a deal. I personally don't care how old a performing artist is, just how good. A songwriter who doesn't perform--who cares?

I can see a couple of benefits to being older in this business:

Somebody who is a good musician when they're young can become a fantastic musician after years of developing their talent.

Somebody might be good at writing when they're young, but much better at it after they've lived long enough to have something interesting to say with their music. --JL

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I don't know oif I can agree with the statement the net does nothing much for the indie artist.
Right I am not an indie artist. Just an indie writer with no major cut to my credit. Just a few small time cuts,and a few wallhangings to say some other people think my stuff isn't all that bad.
Localy. I have a hard time getting performing bands to try my material, let alone perform it.
Yet, looking at my Soundclick stats back in january, I was thinking I may break the magic number of 500 downloads for the month if things kept going.
And they did. And I did. 900 and something in fact.
Slowerd down in feb but still made the 500 and looks set to do that again this month.
Now that is more people listening, and more important to me as a writer, downloading my stuff, thann all the performing artists around Esperance would get to their gigs in any given month.
Add the twix 2 and 3 hundred I get at SongRamp, the couple of hundred on my crass as soundclick site, and another 100 or so at the me and friends one. That is a lot of attention for an amature in my book
So. If somebody who simply can't sing gets that sort of response from the net, what are the "sound real nice" writres geting?
The answer is, I am sure, a darn lot more folks knowing and appreciating them than they would be without the net.
Graham

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Knute...

Please do not speak for me when yopu make your sweeping generalizations..

Your opinion...well...you're certainly entitled to that, but you don't know me and apparently you don't know alot of the people I've shared my career with.

I'm surrounded by folks that I grew wup playing music with....

In bands, as studio musicians, and just for fun at the BarBQ.

We started out as kids and have grown old together.
My drummer has been with me for almost 25 years..
When I broke up the band last year, he chose to retire as well, rather than find a new group.

You have a very narrow view of musicians...
We all would have loved to have made millions of dollars...
Are we disppointed that we didn't...no..we're not.
We had great fun and many great adventures, most of us made a handsome income doing a job we loved to do.
We counted ourselves lucky to be musicians, and I think most of us would make the choice all over again.
Remember Knute, I'm not talking about weekend warriors or part timers.
I'm talking about working professionals who were far too busy doing their job to get caught up in pipe dreams.

So you're welcome to your views....
But don't speak for me and my cohorts...

You're very wrong about us !
And I think there just may be some others you're wrong about, too.

bob Young

I'm not gonna get into a debate about this...I'm not stating opinion here...but fact !

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My opinion? Age matters. Youth and inexperience is such a pain. My opinion again--country music (or at least what *used* to be called country music) is one of the few genres where age and experience have historically been tolerated and respected. The older I get, the more that's important.

Joe

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Graham,

What I was trying to say was this: I've heard a lot about how the Internet is going to help indie artists break out into the mainstream more, allowing such artists to make a better living from their music. I don't claim to know all the numbers on every indie artist, but from my vantage point I've not seen or read anything that would make me believe the indie artist is doing any better. I have read that indie sales overall have dropped along with majors.


Bob: I agree with your post, but the phrase "pipe dream" makes me think you never believed in yourself enough to want more from your music career. If you didn't want more that's fine, but other peoples pipe dreams are real dreams and obtainable.

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Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bob young:
I think Jean might be saying that people need to think of music as a way to make a living.

You don't have to be a multi gazillionaire to be a success in show biz.

People should think of it as a gig...

that's what I've done my whole life...
It's provided me a nice living....
Am I disappointed that it didn't make me a gazillionaire..?

Not at all...

Bob
</font>


Bob:

Actually I prefer arguing politics where you and I tend to be equally left of center. Still, I never suggested that one needs to be a multi gazillionaire to be a success in show biz. That was your generalization, not mine.

My point from the beginning was that most musicians may have to settle for a comfortable living, but their goals will always be set considerably higher than that. I suspect that with time those goals may well be modified to suit the circumstances of the road taken, and that's fine.

But to even infer that goals actually achieved will do v. making it to the top will ever become a popular philosophy with aspiring artists, or anybody else for that matter, sounds like que sera, sera thinking to me.

Many musicians leave the gig behind to become doctors, lawyers, or whatever where they have greater control over their level of success. That's not to say that they ever abandon music, per se, but rather that they prefer to be more than "I'm just a player in a rock and roll band," but I love it or whatever.

Frankly, I think you have been quite fortunate to have done as well as you have. Most working in the entertainment business haven't been so lucky...

P.E. Knudsen


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Pipe dreamsd was a poor choice of words...

What I meant was that we weren't writing original songs and trying to be recording stars.

It wasn't because we didn't havbe faith in our abilities as musicians..
It was because we didn't think of ourselves as "artists"
We were working musicians, providing a service for a very good wage...
We were content to be the guys (and girls) that played Proud Mary a million times...it was fine with us...

Sure, some folks made fun of us, they believed we had small dreams...

But we got to go out and get paid for doing something we loved to do..and many of those folks envied us.

It was all that work that allowed me the chance to indulge myself in songwriting instead of having to scramble for another gig when the stage became an alien world.

Folks in general don't want to see old geezers like me skipping across the stage and twirling our guitars over our heads.
My wrinkled old butt doesn't look very good in spandex, either !

So I call it a life well spent..

My particular dreams came true..

As for the future...well....I hope I do as well there..

bob

PS to "Knute"

I'm sure that those of us that spent our whole lives rehearsing, studying and working our asses off would all be so glad to know that you consider us "lucky" to have made a living off our hard work.
I don't know if that's condescending or just arrogance on your part, but whatever it is, I suggest you place it somewhere appropriate...maybe you should learn a little bit about musicians and entertainers before you start qualifying them !
I can recommend some good books!

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 03-29-2004).]

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Does age matter? Sure it matters. Age, like size, sex, skin tone, hair, proportion, and attitude, to name a few, are all components of what is called "image."

As I've written several times, when I arrived in Nashville in 1979, people my age, 29, were considered a little too young to be country artists. One fellow, who was very talented, was told by a label exec that he should grow a beard to make himself appear more mature. Then the "hat act" revolution hit and, rather suddenly, artists my age went from too young to too old without ever having a chance.

Now, this doesn't mean older acts can't get signed now. That's the funny thing. Lately a few folks like JPFer Buddy Jewell are getting signed even though they shave, or should. It seems as if things now are more open than they were back then...in seventy nine, if you were twenty five, you couldn't even get arrested here in Nashville. At least now, everyone has the same chance...practically nil.

On a personal level, once I turned drinking age, I've been happy with every age I've been. The biggest advantage I find to reaching my elder status? The years I've spent playing have finally accumulated to the point where I'm as good a player now as I would have been if I practiced every day when I was a kid.

All the Best,
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Great topic. I think most of you hit on the finer points but here is something I truly don't understand about the biz. Either that or my thinking is just wrong but here goes...

As the average age of our population in the US is steadily increasing, it seems logical that sales of music geared toward younger audiences (say 12-25) is going to continue to decrease (internet downloading notwithstanding).

For "older" artists and listeners, it seems that the traditional migration from pop/rock, etc to country is the only way to go. I think the big record companies are (once again) missing the boat. IMO, there is a huge potential market out there for the 30-60 year olds who are kind of stuck in that transition between pop and country.

Just look at your choices on the radio these days. If you are younger, you might enjoy listening to rap, hip hop and top 40 but if you are in that "transitional" (I'll call people like this "IN-BETWEENERS") phase what do you listen to if you are tired of classic rock and not quite ready for country? BTW, I think that has something to do with why a good deal of Country music has sounded a lot more like older pop/rock over the past few years (hoping to tap that market as well).

Seems to me like there would be a lot more music geared towards us in-betweeners and I'm just not hearing it. Certainly, there are many variables at play but one would think some Harvard MBA would recognize the potential value there. Who knows? Maybe they did a study and decided it wouldn't pay off but I think it would. Am I the only one?

Van


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I couldn't agree with you more, Buzz.

Except the part about the move to country...
Country music has become as guilty of agism as pop or rock and roll.

It's a drag....but it's the way it is.

Everybody seems to expect guys like me to be playing oldies...

Oh well.....

Bob

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Hey Bob,

Just getting you to agree with me is good enough... [Linked Image]

Seriously, I doubt it's going to change either because of the way the biz is being controlled by only a few majors. I am pretty much a diehard capitalist but to me, that means, true competition, not a monopoly or oligopoly.

I don't like being force-fed the same stuff over and over, even if I like it. There is so much wonderful music that we'll never hear unless we seek it out. To me, that is the true strength of the internet and other such independent forces. The downside is that it takes a lot of time to find stuff you like.

Either way, the next few years will be very interesting. There are a lot of creative people out there. Perhaps one of them will come up with a viable alternative.

Van


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Age matters in evry walk of life for the performer and the songwriter, i think you must judge on what really matters to you. Yes the young and restless performer may blow away and older performer in stage energy and show and the young songwriter may be a wiz with all the new technology available on the internet but true artistic creativity lives in all no matter what age and you cannot kill creativity at any age unless you decide to let it go. (smile ) and write on!!

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For myself, I don't see age as a barrier. This is mostly because I am only 18 and have whole lotta years left in me.

To some degree though it does matter. Why does American Idol only choose contestants 16-25? They don't want any "old" people becoming "superstars" persay. But I mean look at people like Mariah and Celine, they are up into their thirties and can still sell music. You don't have to account that they did start young though. As far as a performer goes it does matter.

With songwriters, I don't think it matters at all. If a twelve year old can write a great song like "bridge over troubled water" great for them, they got a hit at twelve. If a man who is 80 writes it he's good for the go to. Age doesn't matter in songwriting.

Patty

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I was watching a country show of some type a few years ago with Bert Reynolds as a guest. He said something to the effect that you had to be at least 40 before you could really know how to do a country song justice. Too many young singers, on Major Labels are trying to sing and write country songs that come across as weak or almost phony at best. To have the experence to deliver a good song requires experence. You can only get that one day at a time.


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As a songwriter I feel that I am writing better songs now in my latter years than I wrote as a young person.I guess life experience counts for something.


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Yes, age does matter; but it's all in the context of "image".
MTV has made a necessity of looking cool, hip, and young for performers. Much of the time, it's the only thing that will sell a load of sh--ty music. Listening [without "looking"] at many of these piles of vapid crap reveals them to be exactly that.

But in the context of "man/woman-behind-the-curtain" singer/songwriter/performer, it matters not a whit. If you have the skills, you have 'em; if not, then not. The video [re: sex appeal] and song have no immediate linkage in the memory/pleasure-zone files....

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