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Before you read this, read the post "Just For Fun" if you haven't already done so. Here's a summary: There are companies out there who set poems and lyrics to music. Many of these are "song sharks." So we decided to write a horrible lyric (lyrics in "Just for Fun Post") and submit it to one of these companies.

I sent out the letter and within an hour, I got this response. Remember, this lyric was absolutely dreadful!

BB


Hello Nancy,

We have evaluated your lyrics for "Upsy, Upsy Daisy " and you have written some very interesting lyrics. These are fun lyrics and you're absolutely right, this is not a country song!

I'm certain we can compose music for these lyrics that will fit perfectly. You speak of John Lennon or The Beatles type of sound, we have writers here that love that particular music and really make it sound right! This can be very exciting and promising to say the least.

We would like to offer our Co-Writing & Demo Recording Agreement to you. I know we can compose the perfect melody that will work well with your lyrics!

As 50-50 Co-Writers we know the song must be heard! Therefore, a demo recording of the song is absolutely essential. We do not charge to compose music for your lyrics, however, we do charge our co-writers a very reasonable price for the promotional demo recording package. The price we charge is only a small percentage of what the actual cost is to produce a quality studio recording of the song. Included in our special promotional demo recording package price for our co-writers is: the studio session time, studio musicians, vocalists, mastering of the recording, your personal CD and cassette tape, all paperwork and filing fees for the US Copyright Registration, and the followup promotion of the song to the music industry.

As far as comparing prices, I'm certain you will find our pricing for our co-writers very competitive. However pricing isn't everything, having the right music and finished product is most important. That is where we really make a difference. We work very close with our co-writers to make sure the final production turns out to be the best possible.

Below you'll find three of our Demo Recording Package prices we offer to our select co-writers. As I've stated our pricing is very competitive for what we deliver.

Deluxe Customized Demo Recording Package
$750.00

Our Deluxe Customized Demo Recording Package features: Vocals (both Lead and Harmony), Guitar, Bass Guitar, Keyboards, Various Orchestration Necessary For A Full Production, and Drums. This all inclusive Package includes all of the paperwork filing and fees for the US Copyright Registration.

Standard Demo Recording Package
$475.00

Our Standard Demo Recording Package features: Vocals (both Lead and Harmony), Guitar, Bass Guitar, Keyboards, and Drums. This all inclusive Package includes all of the paperwork filing and fees for the US Copyright Registration.

Basic Demo Recording Package
$275.00

Our Basic Recording Package includes a recording with Vocal and Guitar. This package includes all the paperwork filing and fees for the US Copyright Registration.

All Prices in US Dollars

We've made it easy to securely purchase online using your Visa or MasterCard. If your lyrics have been submitted and accepted and would like to utilize this method of payment, please click the following link. Purchase Demo Recording Packages For Co-Writers Online

If you would like to pursue this, please confirm as a reply to this e-mail and request a copy of our Co-Writer & Demo Recording Agreement. You will then receive an e-mail which will include a printable copy of the Agreement.

If you have any questions please don't hesitate to request any additional information. We'll do our best to assist you in any way possible with your questions or requests.

Thank you,
Company Name.


BB's Note: I have not given you the company name because there may be some liability if it seems like this post is accusing anyone of wrong doing. I don't want to drag JPF into anything like that, especially since this company is not doing anything illegal. Unethical, maybe? Illegal, no.


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Sheesh.

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Oh, I should mention in this post (just in case you didn't read the other), that this company offers a FREE evaluation of song lyrics. Only those those lyrics that pass the assessement will be offered the deal. My theory was that any lyric -- no matter how awful -- would pass the evaluation.

I think my theory was proven correct.

BB


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This is a classic example of how this whole scam works. Find an unsuspecting writer with little knowledge and experience and no reality check whatsoever, put the hook of faux success into their mouths and reel them in for some bucks. This happens thousands of times a day across the music industry...

I hope this will sink in to folks. I may have to make it part of our permanent educational archive!

Thanks for everyones participation in what is both funny and eye opening but also sad and frustrating that so many folks are falling prey to this at the same time.

I hope this saves a few people from the scam.

Brian


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I sure hope folks read this!! I've had complete professional demos done, with Vocals (both Lead and Harmony), Guitar, Bass Guitar, Keyboards, Various Orchestration Necessary For A Full Production, and Drums, at a FRACTION of the "Deluxe Recording Package" price. Good Gawd, that's just ridiculous!!

And yes, 60 minutes would be proud!!!
[Linked Image] Cindy


The Artist formerly known as TINK ;\)

I write so I can breathe...

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Tink,

You bring up a good point -- the difference between these "song sharks" and legitimate companies who produce demos for a fee. I, too, get Top-Notch, professional demos from the Gator Hole (a legitimate company) for less than this company's standard package.

Basically, I think a legitimate demo production company will not even think about writing music to lyrics. They expect, at a bare minimun, a guitar/vocal work tape.

A legitimate demo production company will not promise to send your music to "top industry professionals."

Basically, a legitimate demo production company will take your work tape, do the best job they can, and send it back to you. And that's it. No promises, no guarantees.

If anyone who is unfamiliar with how the whole process works has ANY questions, post those questions here BEFORE you part with your hard-earned money.

BB


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LOL. So who is going to send this to 60 Minutes?


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Beautifully done BB and JPF, and lots of fun... though unfortunately, as yet statistically invalid. Taste is subjective.


Now if this was done 100 times, with 100% the same result, man what a case we could build. And a newsworthy item I might add.


BTW, somewhere buried in the JPF archive and songwriting messages is a link to a website that exposes fraudulent enterprises. Worth a visit.


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John,
We knew the response before it was sent. It's a formulaic response that anyone gets to anything sent in. They customize a few lines, but it's a duplicate sales pitch all the way. The fact that you'd even question whether it was a scam illustrates how even smart people like yourself can get caught up in the bullshit.

It's a sales pitch.. it has nothing to do with the quality of what was sent.. I imagine that word will get back to these folks quickly about this post (I sent links to a bunch of industry friends). So they may go into hiding or adjust their tactic... but this is a very old "been there...done that.." type of pitch that represents hundreds of other similar scams..

Brian


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Hi BB

I've thoroughly enjoyed following this link, and had some great belly laughs!!!

Although I realize the upsy company is a complete fraud, I was left wondering, if there isn't a need for a legitimate recording company, to accept lyrics only, and make a professional demo; for those of us who write lyrics but have zero musical ability. Plus, it would be nice for a legitimate co. to be able to push your paid for demo, to music publishers for a piece of the pie/%

I know from personal experience, it is possible to network with composers through the web, with jpf being a prime example of the proper way for a writer to contact a composer, or vise/versa.

Yet in todays world where convenience is at a premium, why shouldn't there be a legit co., that can screen lyrics, accept/reject, and make a professional demo, for a reasonable fee, and then proceed to do the dirty work, of pushing the finished demo to the appropriate labels/publishing houses, for a % ?

------------------
http://www.random-noise.com/

[This message has been edited by spiderlady (edited 02-21-2003).]

[This message has been edited by spiderlady (edited 02-21-2003).]

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Spiderlady,

The thing is, the company ISN'T a fraud. I'll bet they do exactly what they say they will do. What they are doing is not illegal. However, as Brian pointed out, they prey on the untalented, the beginners, and the desparate. The point wasn't to prove if they were frauds, it was to see if any crappy old lyric would pass their evaluation.

I suppose there might be a need for a music writing service, just like there is a need for life insurance. I just wouldn't do either transaction with an unknown company over the internet. A lyric writer's best bet would be to look for a local music collaborator, or search for one on boards like these.

I could carry on this experiment if you want. I could reply back saying, well, it's a little expensive, and I'm not sure if "Upsy Daisy" is good enough. What I'd be fishing for is someone to say, no, the lyric is good... we think it has potential. Now THAT would be a fraud.

So folks, do you think I should take this experiment to the next level, or just drop it?

BB


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Oh no Brian, I am with you all the way here. I have no question this is exactly what you say it is. My only point is that in order for "some one person or organization" ie, JPF, to release a statistically valid fact...these people are sleaze balls..., this little "experiment" must be repeated so that is is not simply anecdotal. Thats all.

This thought was triggered by BB's reluctance to release the name of this organization.

What's too bad is that there is a pattern to these people. You can close em down either legally or with bad publicity, and they simply open up elsewhere under another name, with much the same format and hook.


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This scam has been around as long as the "envelope stuffing" thingy. Funny thing is,, they wouldn't be in business if there wasn't a "sucker born every minute". It's basically the definition of "vanity publishing".

I'll add my $5.00 to hear the finished product, count me in! Hell, I'd even pay 10!!.

Teenagers would love it anyway... they love anything they can't understand. (it's their definition of "deep" hahah)

I think it would be very kewl to have this on 60 minutes... in fact, they should replay it every year!!!! LOL
The bottom line is, that if you can't find someone (another writer) to write music for your lyrics, they're probably not good enough. I've seen plenty of posts where someone wants music written to their lyric, if noone replies.. well that's a little hint (wink)

Not to plug another site, but if you write lyrics that sound closer to poetry. try www.netpoets.com. They have some great boards like this one and I post lyrics there sometimes also. (great place to dig for new song ideas too!!). Hard to believe, but some poets are actually lyric writers, it's just noone has told them yet. (smile)

Anyway. LOVE the post... LOVE the thread... I'll continue to watch for new developments.. cus it just REALLY makes me sick that people take money for this sort of thing.. how do they sleep at night??? geesh


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This'll be a long post. Here is exactly what it says on the website, with the company's name deleted. The caps in my post are also caps on the website

HOME PAGE……

HAVE MUSIC COMPOSED FOR YOUR LYRICS!

If you're like many people who write lyrics, YOU HAVE A DREAM of someday hear your lyrics set to Music and Recorded by a Professional Singer. YOUR DREAM CAN BECOME A REALITY NOW!

(BLANK) SONGWRITING & MUSIC SERVICE has Professional Songwriters that will create that SPECIAL MELODY YOUR LYRICS DESERVE. After your lyrics actually become a song, a Demo Recording needs to be made. (BLANK) SONGWRITING & MUSIC SERVICE will do a Demo Recording Session using Quality Professional Singers and Musicians. All this at an extremely affordable price!

The first step is to submit your lyrics for your FREE EVALUATION! When your lyrics are submitted to (BLANK) SONGWRITING & MUSIC SERVICE, you'll receive notification within 24 HOURS of whether or not your lyrics have been accepted. When an agreement is made to become co-writer with you, (BLANK) SONGWRITING & MUSIC SERVICE will take care of everything in an All Inclusive Package of your choice.

The next step is the Demo Recording Session. When the Studio Demo Recording Package Of Your Choice is agreed upon, we will make arrangements for the proper singers and musicians best suited for the project, and go into the studio to produce and record your co-written song. When the demo recording session is complete, you'll receive two copies of the demo recording. One recording will be on cassette tape, and one recording will be on CD.

We at (BLANK) SONGWRITING & MUSIC SERVICE are looking forward to being co-writers with you. "IT ALL STARTS WITH A DREAM!" LET'S GET STARTED NOW!

And here, directly from the website, is the company's credentials:

1) Heading up our staff of talent is (John Doe), a professional singer/musician/songwriter with many years of recording experience. (John Doe) also was a radio broadcast disc jockey, and his professional broadcast career took him to many parts of the country including Reno, Nevada and Nashville, Tennessee. During his years in broadcasting he continued writing songs, recording and performing as an entertainer. "The (John Doe) Show" performed in showcase engagements across the US.

As a songwriter (John Doe) has written quite a library of songs over the years. He has also co-written with some of the best songwriters in the industry, including (Mr. So and So), who was inducted into the Nashville Songwriters Hall Of Fame in 1999.

BB: Note how vague the credentials are. "Quite a library" means nothing when establishing credentials. We need the names of the songs that were hits… or even recorded. Co-writing with "some" of the best songwriters also means nothing. Give us names, give us song titles. Our John Doe did manage a co-write with Mr. So and So, but we have no idea when. Could've been when Mr. So and So was, like, 17.

Compare this to, say, a legitimate and highly respected writer like Charlie Craig. He lists his credentials and they are impressive. Charlie is a professional so he doesn't have to be vague in his credentials. He's got what it takes and he can prove it.

One final note that should make us suspicious: In the response they sent back to me, see the paragraph that begins with "as 50/50 cowriters…." The last statement in the paragraph is "…and the followup promotion of the song to the music industry." Hmmm, I wonder what that means…..

BB


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This is awesome...count me in for $10 if you go through with it!
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Great topic, BB!



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FOLKS: If there is still ANY doubt there are such "scam" companies out there.....YOU better believe it now.....I was stung back many years ago by a certain "company" in Nashville for $1500 bucks for a "trial demo".....And YOU KNOW what the worse Part of the whole thing is? I'm still getting letters from them several times a year telling me that another "recognition" party is coming up and if I'll join a certain association for a simple $100 bucks, then they'll name me Poet of the Year, Songwriter of the year...and if I pay the $2500 price of half the cost of a demo, my Poem of the year just MIGHT be performed at this gala celebration and it MIGHT be played on the radio across the world.....I've not answered one of their letters for years and don't know how they discovered where I'd moved to....but I got another "scam" letter yesterday "DECLARING" me as "Platinmum Poet" of the year and for the sum of $2500 dollars, the $100 dollar membership fee and another $200 dollars "my" winning poem will be performed at the gala celebration come sometime this summer.....what POEM were they talking about??????? The ORiginal one they had mutilated and "demoed" without my express permission to "change" the words.....and they think I'm going to be a fool more than once......HEY, surely theren't aren't people out there that fall for this the SECOND time, IS THERE???? I swear I'm telling the truth....and in order to prevent any liabilities I won't name the "OH SO great Salami" eaters of SCAMVILLE!

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There's fools in them thar hills -- ok, at least one anyway -- ME!! I sent in some lyrics to two of these companies a couple of years ago -- very naive, but just starting and thinking that I would get a good critique of my songs! LOL Yes, EVERYTHING I sent them (well ... about 4 songs) "had the makings of a GREAT song!" Of course, they would put the music to my lyrics, thereby owning 50%, and then I had to pay to get a demo made. It was a minimal amount to have a basic demo made -- between $110 - 120. I decided to do it mainly to see what the process was -- use it as a learning experience. One company never did send me a demo and wound up "temporarily shutting down for reorganization" -- never did hear from them again, even after contact the BBB in Nashville. The other company did send a demo, wasn't horrible, but never did critique the lyrics. Anyway, it definitely was a learning experience, one never to be repeated!

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Mary Lou

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REALITY CHECK...

There are people who need help and support in the world. If anyone sends a single penny to the people running this scam just for the "kick" of seeing them put this to music, I STRONGLY suggest that you reconsider and send the money to help one of the family's that were recently hit with death and tragedy and posting here for help OR use it to support someone else in need.

I suggest making a donation to Nuci's Space, a great organization in Athens Georgia that could use the money for good to help artists get mental health services and possibly change for the better or even save a life. www.nuci.org

Really.. please take a reality check about any thoughts on paying these sleazebags. I am truly disappointed that anyone would help this type of company succeed even if it's just for kicks or to further prove their scam. I'd rather see you build a bonfire with your money than send it to these people. The fact that even with people here telling you they've fallen for the scam themselves that some of you still want to support the continuation of it with your money is very sad.

Brian


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Point well taken Brian.. In offering my own $10, I was rather caught up in the laughter of wondering what-the-hay the demo would sound like. I do agree, however, that they deserve less than nothing for their efforts.
-Gary

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We've already exposed it. If people need more proof of this type of scam, then they don't want to believe it. Taking it further solves nothing. I personally don't even know who the company is.. but there are literally hundreds of these types of companies operating and one just replaces the next. People are far too vain not to try and buy their dream when the dream isn't happening on it's own. My hope here was to prove in a cautionary way (and with a few giggles thrown in) how these people operate. If you seriously doubt any other lyric short of illegal (i.e. talking about illegal activities) wouldn't have gotten the same response, then you (not you but the person in question) obviously just doesn't want to believe it.

An example of this was when one of our mentors and I tried to talk a member out of spending $30,000 on a demo/promotions package. She came to me with the offer and I adamantly said NO.. DON'T DO IT!!!! I also brought in our best "scam detective" mentor who agreed 110%. It was one of the most outrageous scams I have ever come across. We pleaded with this woman NOT to spend her families savings on this. Guess what? In the end, she said "you're probably right.. but it's my dream and I have to take the chance.." Of course 6 months later and over 30K poorer she came back and told me how it was all a vanity scam.

So, some folks will just not deal with reality no matter how trustworthy the warning signs and advice. I can try but really in the end I can't help those people. But I CAN help those people who can reason and deal rationally with the obvious once someone has pointed it out. Hopefully for those folks they've been warned. If we save even 1 or 2 members from wasting their money on this.. we've succeeded.

Brian

PS: If people want (for fun...) to have this song recorded.. I know a lot of legit and deserving musicians who could pay their rent with a portion of the money you want to spend and probably do a better job... as long as everyone agreed it was for fun and nothing more.. just let me know..


Brian Austin Whitney
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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

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Love the thread...Great job BB. I'm in for $5.

Stan

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Having Fun!!!!
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/8/stanlohmusic.htm

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Hey all,

I have an idea here. While I'm all for following up with this company and replying to them questioning if the lyric is good enough, if it's decided that it won't be purrsued further....how about constructing a lyric about scams and companies that prey on people's dreams. That should tickle them a bit. Hilarious. Title it "Fallen Angel" so they think it's some heartwarming lyric then go into how you're one up on companies that take people's money by putting music to crappy lyrics and charging an arm and a leg for it! Awesome.

They said my words were good
And I was quite excited
I didn't doubt I should
for I was too delighted

to see behind the crap
brought before my eyes
I didn't realize that
I was blinded by these guys

that promised me a song
but wanted all my dough
I've yearned for it so long
no way I could say no

I waited for the mail
each day that passed on by
to bring me my true tale
it finally arrived

I couldn't wait to hear
my lovely little song
but it was no where near
what I wanted all along

It made my hairs poke out
my eyes opened real wide
now I had no doubt
I've been taken for a ride

............wow what kind of reply would they give to that! I'm sure someone else could come up with a far juicier lyric or add to it - to really get them squirming!

Just my thoughts - I'm really enjoying this thread. That International Society of Poets has been trying to get me to cough up only $600 to go to their convention in Florida. After not replying they said they would read my poem for only $169.00. Not that's a bargain! [Linked Image]

Debbie


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Heck, I'll chip in, as a co-writer on this work of art!



------------------
Marian Mastrorilli
mastrose@aol.com
http://www.projectmercury.net


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tooooooooooo funny [Linked Image] ciao, flo


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Folks,

Just to let you know, I won't give 5 cents to this company. The "experiment" ends here, with the point well made.

But it was fun, wasn't it [Linked Image]

BB


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speaking of the ISP...at least they do have very educational seminars during that "Hoop-de-la"! I decided one year to just go see for myself just what kind of scam was being run via that Association....the celebrity part is a bunch of hooey, but there were some very qualified educators there giving writing seminars....had a professor of literature from Stanford Univ., another professor from Harvard, and a professor Emeritus from Yale....that particular year I went....it was held in Washington, D.C. that year and I really just wanted to go to Washington, D.C. so I killed two birds with one stone as they say.....Oh, I got an OPLYMPIC size bronze medal proclaiming poet of the year, a plaque proclaiming me top honors in the literary field....had two lovely banquets....but the "finalists" show was the whole laughable crux of the whole deal....they'd promised all semi-finalists (there were about 20,I think) that the well-known "educators" we had in our presence would be the ones to "read" all those poems and "pick" the winners.....It just so happened several of the so called "poets" were just looking around and incidentally entered this booth behind the registeration desk, which by then of course was no longer manned....there were three of the ISP top officials(not the educators) pulling out of a box, one poem at a time and calling out the author's name and the poem and what place as in the first one pulled out was the grand prize winner.....a lady from a foreign country....she had "set" them up so to speak....she did her best to give back the "grand prizez" she'd won....but they wouldn't take them...she left them on the podium and walked out....so did about 50 of the rest of us.....we never knew who did what after that....but the next year they sent me an ad about the next convention and there was this lady's picture as she stood there trying to refuse the grand prize.....LOL anyway....it just goes to show you that there are good and bad things can be mix up.

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http://www.songramp.com/homepage.ez?Who=sharonirenewells

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Bumping this classic post.


Brian Austin Whitney
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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

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I don't think it has to stop. I'm not saying "shell out big bucks for a demo" but . . . They did NOT furnish what is promised on their site. What they replied with was not an "evaluation" of the lyric at all. It was "free" alright - but not an evaluation in the least.

Perhaps they need folks like us pestering them to fulfill their promise of "free evaluations" . . . would they have time for anything else?

*grin* Would anyone do business with a company who doesn't even start off flying? *wink*

Just my two cents.

~Bubbles

[This message has been edited by bubblingsoul (edited 03-25-2006).]

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This IS a classic, Brian!


Herbie
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bump


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