JPF Home Page Forums General Messages Songwriter Message Forum The Votes are all in...

Hi Folks,

The deadline has come and the votes are all in. It appears we have a clean break in the voting so we can choose the allotted nominees without additional voting. (i.e. all the ties for the last spot were broken naturally...).

We will announce the nominees in late October along with the other nominees. We have no need to extend the voting. I may post some generic comments/info on the voting when I get home from this Roadtrip on Friday (after a LONG nap in a REAL bed!!!).

Thanks to everyone who entered and everyone who voted.

Brian

Brian,
Thank you for putting on this great contest and for an awesome roadtrip. You deserve a much needed rest!! Thanks again!!

Brenda

Yep, thanks again; definitely a learning experience for sure!

Meanwhile,
After doing every page and making notes, I was expecting to see a voting deadline date come up in the forums (besides the reminder, I mean) that I never did catch (my fault I guess). I just found out this AM from another writer on p. 11 that we both missed the boat .

Oh well,
Thanks very much all the same



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Terry C. Graham

Terry,

We had a voting guidelines page as well and did extend the voting 1 day. I am sorry you weren't aware of the deadline.

Brian

B: Thanks for all the effort and great work. There were some absolutely fabulous entries.. Good luck to all. /Glen

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"The process of learning is often more important than what is being learned"
-----The Kat----

Coming soon. New site, new songs.
Glen King
http://www.hear.cd

Brian, this was a wonderful learning experience; and a humbling one; kind of best of times, worst of times, trying to decide on just 5. So many good writers out there. And, I'm pleased to see new posters on the boards, must have been the impetus needed. Thanks for all your hard work. Jeannette

First off, let me add my thanks also to Brian and everyone else who worked on this lyric contest.

There seems to be general agreement that it was a terrific learning experience. If anyone would like to share exactly what they learned, I would be very interested in their thoughts.

What techniques tended to work well, and what didn't? What was it about the songs we voted for that made them special? How did we decide which of two good songs was the better one? What were the common "mistakes" or weaknesses that we found? etc.

I think such a discussion of songwriting style and techniques could be really fruitful, and is a promising next step to follow the lyric contest. But I think we need to be careful not to refer to specific songs here, because the songs were not shared with the intention of being subjected to public critique.

Mike

Hello Mike and all!

I did learn one very big lesson from reading the entries: size matters!

As I read them, I found myself doing naturally what the pros purportedly do when they come across a long lyric: If the lyric didn't catch my interest after the first three to four verses or chorus's, I went on to the next one. Because I realized even if the song had a bang-up ending, that ending would be ill-served by what was leading up to it.

So, if I ever write the greatest 50 verse lyric in the world, that could make people sigh and angels weep --

-- I still would not submit it to a contest!

Linda

[This message has been edited by sweetsong (edited 10-04-2002).]

I'll chime in by echoing Linda a bit... I used Brian's suggestions for evaluating the entries and also some kindly provided by Bobbie Gallup. But essentially, if something didn't hit me in the first few lines or I had to think too hard to understand what was going on within the lyrics, I moved on. Maybe this particular learning was about my own preferences and/or tolerance level? ::

Another huge learning for me was recognizing and realizing the diversity in styles and coming out of my own style to appreciate others'. There is phenomenal talent with a significant portion of the entries and while I may not write in a similar fashion, I still need to appreciate the styles and also learn from them, breaking out of my own limited mindset.

Another learning was perhaps evaluating lyrics on the strengths of the words, not necessarily having to imagine the music partnered with the lyrics. I'll admit that a high portion of the entries struck me as "poetry"... so again, a huge benefit for me to be able to review, discern, and look at soley the strengths of the words.

Again, Brian and the JPF folks who helped pull this together, a huge THANKS from Pennsylvania.

Hi All,

One of the best learning experiences I have seen work over and over is at the TAXI Road Rally. They have a segment they do each year where a panel of A&R execs screen songs live in front of the entire audience of writers/artists (usually 800-1500 people). The unique part is that when the audience or the panelists have heard enough of the song, they raise their hands.

So who do you think are the first ones to raise their hands to ask to stop the songs? Of course it isn't the A&R people. In fact, the artists and writers are 10 times nastier and more intolerant of the music than any of the pro-A&R people on stage. The best part of it is when the A&R people DON'T raise their hands, but much of the audience DOES.. yet they let the song keep playing and suddenly the song takes off in a brilliant way and everyone in the audience timidly lowers their hands realizing that they didn't give the song a fair shot. I've seen it happen over and over during this invaluable excercise and I wonder how many of the audience "get" it.

There are many many things to be learned from this excercise. One is that the average listener has a very short tolerance for something they don't instantly like. Either they literally tune out by switching the radio channel, tv channel or separating themselves from the music in some tangible way OR they tune out with bias thinking they don't like it and that decision is made very very quickly. It is easy to think your music is "different" and the exception to the rule, but in truth, it isn't. Nothing is. If you want all the trappings of mass commercial success, you need learn what it takes to capture the masses quickly and effectively. That is what most labels work to do. They aren't always successful, but they do a MUCH better job of it than the average musician or music fan. That's why they are in those jobs.

I think those of you who voted on the lyrics got a small taste of that process. Use that knowledge to make sure you grab someone from the first line of your lyric and you keep forcing them to read the next line. THAT is magic. THAT is the secret for success as a writer. It's like eating Dorito's.. you can't eat just one. Your lines should be the same. Call it "Brian's Dorito Principle"... force people to NEED to know what you are saying next.. and next.. and next.. A writer named Richard Berman (he won for Best Traditional Folk Album in our music awards last year) is one of the best I have found at that. You literally have to hear what is next. That's why he won that award and that is why the room falls silent when he quietly plays one of his brilliantly written and performed songs.

I am glad you all have learned from this.. that is the whole point in the end.

Brian

Brian.. now THAT was one of the most intelligent posts I've seen on any board in a LONG LONG time.!

I admit, I am guilty of the same thing. However. Here is something else I do.... with my OWN songs....

Every month or so, I will put my own CD in the player... and pretend I've never heard the songs.. and I wonder do the first lines.. keep me listening??

Kay-lynn

[This message has been edited by redwriter1 (edited 10-06-2002).]

That's how I screened the lyrics Brian. I read the first verse, if it held my interest I moved onto the chorus, if that held my interest I kept the lyric as a finalist on my list. If a chorus is really great, the listener will put up with less than sterling 2nd and 3rd verses, but as you say the first verse and chorus have to be special.

I have to say I eliminated some songs that have melodies that I have heard, but only if I could remember the melody. If I remembered being impressed by the lyrics before I heard the melody, I kept the lyric on my list.

When it came down to the final vote, I considered the overall package of each lyric. I had to let go of those which had great potential but still needed polishing. Some lyrics moved me emotionally but were not crafted well enough IMO.
I personally like lyrics that engage my intellect, sense of humor, and emotions. If they did any of those things and they were crafted well, they made it to my final list.

I copied each page to my word processing program. If the lyrics didn't pass the first verse and chorus test, I deleted them and then compared those that were left. The final voting was difficult. The songs I finally decided on were very different from one another. I was surprized at my own votes, LOL.

I think I voted for two lyricists I knew, and three newcomers. I felt I was pretty objective.

I missed the deadline to enter the contest because I couldn't choose which of my lyrics to enter. LOL.

I wonder if others had the same problem of deciding. I was surprized at some of the entries from lyricists I had read a lot. If they had spread out all their lyrics in front of me and said choose, I would not have chosen the ones they chose.

In some cases, I felt they submitted some of their weaker lyrics. I wonder if anyone else felt that way or just me.

This has been a good experience, although a little nerve wracking. Judging wasn't easy especially when I kept thinking if only they had done such and such to this work I would have been able to vote for the song.


JeanB

Jean,

That's a very accurate observation. It is the primary reason we don't have music awards entrants pick what songs or what genres they want to enter. They almost never pick the strongest songs off their own albums. I would guess that over 50% of the time when an artist suggests a track, it is among the weakest on the entire CD. Same goes for a lot of artists and what songs they choose to place first. It's sad how many put a very very weak song first when there are a lot of stronger songs later on in the album. The reality is that folks aren't patient enough to get to the good songs before they cast the album away.

It is much farther down the road in an artists development to be able to assess their own work. It generally comes long after the ability to write a great song.

Great observation... I see it reguarly when artists at our showcases who I know to be great writers or performers pick terrible songs that make them look and sound awful live. I sometimes want to give them a little wake up call.

Brian

Picking up something Jean mentioned --

I thought there were a lot of submissions that seemed to be "first drafts." There was a definite lack of polish. I eliminated a lot of choices on that basis.

I was also a little surprised at my final five choices. Two were ones that stuck with me from the first time I read them. Once I determined that these two definitely had to have a vote, all I needed to do was fill in the last three slots. Piece o' cake. ( )

'night all.




[This message has been edited by sweetsong (edited 10-05-2002).]

One point Jean made stuck out to me. I was surprised at the lyrics entered by some folks that I knew to be good writers. Far from their strongest lyrics IMO. Goes back to what Brian said about most writers not being able to judge their own work. I may have been guilty too

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brian Austin Whitney:
[B]Jean,

That's a very accurate observation. It is the primary reason we don't have music awards entrants pick what songs or what genres they want to enter. They almost never pick the strongest songs off their own albums. I would guess that over 50% of the time when an artist suggests a track, it is among the weakest on the entire CD. Same goes for a lot of artists and what songs they choose to place first. It's sad how many put a very very weak song first when there are a lot of stronger songs later on in the album.

*** Hey! I resemble that remark!

Great observation... I see it reguarly when artists at our showcases who I know to be great writers or performers pick terrible songs that make them look and sound awful live. I sometimes want to give them a little wake up call.

*** Hey! I resemble that one too!

Get some rest afore the next journey, willya??
See you 'round the square......

Brian,

Why do you think some artist pick their worst to showcase? Is it something deep down, where they are afraid of success, and want to fail. If they fail, they don't have to deal with it all. I don't think anyone would do this on purpose. But there's got to be a reason.

Jamie,
I don't think it's anything near that deep.
One reason boils down to what I refer to as New Song Syndrome. Not always, but often in the flush of finishing a new song, your euphoria(maybe too strong a word, maybe not) makes you think it is the best song you've ever written, or at least way up there. So when a special showcase comes along at that point in time, of course you want to sing "the good one". And sometimes it IS one of your best, but even then it probably could use some polishing.
OR...... they could be singing one of their favorites. I know some of my own favorites are not my best. But perhaps too, as Brian says, the ability to discern that comes with time.
Not saying some of us don't suffer from what you suggest. But doubt that's the reason we would pick a weaker song.

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Harriet

Harriet,

Another great observation. I can speak from experience that your exact scenario DOES happen regularly. People get excited by the brand new song, and the euphoria around it (and that is also accurate.. it is tangible), makes them think it's thebest thing they have done.

Elton John and Bernie Taupan regularly say that their all time favorite songs are all on their most recent album. But who would be satisfied if he didn't play all those hits in concert? If you only get 1 song at a showcase, play the hit.

Another factor relating to playing that new song is that the performance of it is ALSO not polished like that hit song you do all the time. It makes what might be a weak song even weaker because you just aren't comfortable with it.

Yet another cause is that a song will have meaning to the writer and thus take on more importance in their catalog than it might deserve from an objective point of view. Sort of on the same track, people will also pick songs to perform simply because it matches their own esoteric taste. Artists are notorius for playing what makes them happy versus what might make an audience happy. I am not saying it isn't the right of the artist to do what (s)he wants to on stage, but I think some artists are truly oblivious to how they are being received. In some cases, not very well.

There are songs I fall in love with during the music awards process, but that no one else gets or likes. But I can pretty accurately predict which songs fall into that category and which ones will be loved by the larger masses of judges. It's a lesson I see unfold in realtime each year during the awards process. (and also in the lyric results, where some (by no means all.. some great lyrics rose to the top) of the most brilliant writing, in my opinion, went largely ignored by those who voted).

Great discussion! I am really impressed by the comments being made by everyone here.

Brian

One thing I would hope, if the Lyric Award continues to have life, is that the lyrics not be judged by industry standards. Let the industry do that. You are not necessarily being more sophisticated by judging the way A&R folks would decide on a song, because that technique is primarily aimed at the commercial success of the song. While some of the criteria developed by the music industry came about for very good reasons, and they should be known to every songwriter, I would hope that the basis for judging in this forum would be artistic merit. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying lyrics should be abstruse, wordy, unstructured or offensive. I'm just saying that we shouldn't be judging songs with the thought "If I were an A&R guy, would I like this song?" running in the back of our minds at all times. It shouldn't matter if you think the song could sell. What should matter is whether or not YOU think it's GOOD. And deciding that is a matter of your own personal taste and criteria.

I guess I'm a little touchy about this because I cannot count the number of times I've heard, "I really like it, but I don't think anyone else will." (A show of hands, anyone?) Anyway, I'd like it if we could break out of the music industry-cult mentality and establish our own criteria. Who knows? Maybe the industry will follow us for a change? That is, after all, how punk and rap got started, and now they own the turf.

Besides, anyone who wants an commerciability critique can get that kind of feedback (which IS very helpful) from places like TAXI, NSAI pubisher nights, etc.

Michael R. J. Roth

Absolutely with Michael on this, there are times when you need to be a leader, not a follower.

This kind of perspective is even more important to bring to the Lyric boards, because this is where new ideas develop and where innovation should continue to be encouraged.

That's why I think Brian's advice was dead on. If it moves you, vote for it...if you like it, cote for it. If you are someone who likes story songs, that's peobably what is going to speak to you more. If you like some other kind of song or lyric, then you'll probably vote for those. I voted for a variety of songs. I voted for one song that I am not even sure I would like as a song. It probably wouldn't have been played on any of the stations I listen to, but I thought it was a really sharp lyric. I thought it's anger was appropriate and it was interesting to me. I don't think people were judging by industry standards necessarily. I think they were responding to making the decision to read over 500 lyrics. I think it made some people understand why a song sometimes only gets 30 seconds to make a good impression. I think most peopel just picked what they liked. I say---Boooooo, down witht he industry!

Ashleigh

I agree with the majority of posts here, my final choices were actually the ones that caught my eye first, first couple lines, then strong chorus, bridge that sent the hook home - I did not take meter or rhyme or many other technical things into consideration if it really moved me. My top 5 consistently made me say 'wow' as they did the first time I read them. In fact, my top choice was a JPF entry that totally moved me from beginning to end of contest. others I passed over. However, I had to catch myself, because there are other genres and styles that I'm not familiar with or generally write in (a big factor to overcome so as not to censor)...so I went back to thos; that was a great learning for me; it expanded my horizons and appreciation.
As for choices of lyrics, I probably put one of my less polished lyrics in...not sure why, maybe because more standard in format.
I do agree, that I see people putting to music too quickly, lyrics that are not quite polished; rewriting can always be unwritten, but it should at least be attempted.
And, hearing your lyric to music the first time can be a heady experience, but unless you are willing to take a strong stand and demand from the composer the same standard of creativity, persistence, integrity, focus, and perfection that you have and not settle for less, then you may not make the best marriage between lyric and melody.
I have a composer who said everyone in his office liked it - sorry, not a true test for me. Jeannett

Thank YOU guys for the forum and the opportunity!

jack

While I work at becoming a better writer, I don't force myself to write (or judge other's work) when I feel uninspired. Therefore I found it hard to read through all the lyrics, especially when I hit a few in a row that I didn't like for some reason. I was disappointed that only a little more than a hundred people voted (at least that was the last number I saw mentioned) given that there were over 500 entrants. I felt an obligation to vote since I entered and did so with the expectation that people would read my entry and decide whether it was worthy of nomination - the other entrants certainly deserved the same.

I agree with not being able to fairly assess your own work. My daughter (16 years old) was gracious enough to pick a lyric for me out of six that I gave her to choose from. I know this only means I had 5 lyrics that I could have posted that were worse, but I go to writing workshops and post on critique boards for a dose of reality. I enter contests to dream about winning and my dream is that much sweeter knowing my daughter selected my entry (and cared enough about her old man's interest to do so).

Thank You Brian for the contest and a chance to dream of being nominated from among a group of some very talented and dedicated song writers/lyricists. Thank You everyone who read through all the lyrics.

Rich

I read the comments and just felt compelled to respond. I found reading through the entries was time consuming, but I did learn from it. It actually took me about a week to get through all of them. Have to share the internet phone line with a teenager. Anyway, I wanted to thank you for the lyric contest. I did enter one of my song, so like someone else mentioned, I felt obligated to vote. I had a hard time picking just 5! The one thing that stood out most for me was the length of some of the songs. Since I write mostly country, I try to keep in mind that the song should be around 3 minutes, but with POP/Rock, you can get away with a longer song. That was probably the hardest thing for me.

DITTO what Rich said!!

Tink

I read all the entries as they were posted and for me, judging was easy. much of the entries read like (sorry to say it) bad poetry. I voted for the lyrics that had a good hook supported by a few solid vss. that's all a good lyric is. sometimes not even that. I still say it's hard to judge lyrics without music. that's like judging a rum and coke without the 151. you can tell if a lyric is really bad just by reading it, but whether it's good is tougher. simply because without music you almost hafta judge it like you would judge poetry...on imagery, metaphors and lines. a very small percentage of lyricists can be judged like that. even then, someone like Dylan...his stuff is much weaker when read than heard. as it should be, he's a songwriter. anyhoo, I cast my lot with the small percentage who submitted what seemed like lyrics, not Freshman 101 poetry.

[This message has been edited by couchgrouch (edited 10-13-2002).]

hello. well ill put my two cents in. i entered, thanks for the chance, and i voted.it was difficult. i really liked a lot of the lyrics. and i agree it is hard to do without the music. i think that is one way i voted. if i could kinda sing it as i read it. but mostly just picked the ones i liked. the story ones got my attention. but i admit if it didnt catch me in the first few lines i moved on. and this post is as good a learning experience as the lyric contest. thanks for both. dwayne

I just want to express a thank you to the over 100 people who did take the time to vote. It did take work to read through all of those lyrics but like most things in life, you get back what you put in and it was a great experience in looking at lyrics "from the other side". Entering and not taking the time to vote does seem somewhat selfish - but then those that didn't vote didn't get a say in who wins. Funny thing is I'm sure they'll also be the ones who object when the winners are posted!

Just to pick up on something couchgrouch brought up -

I also feel that there is a certain inherent difficulty in judging lyrics without music. It is only half the creation, and if you think of the singer, the instrumentation, etc. as also part of the equation, maybe even less.

Additionally, I think lyrics have greater or lesser importance, depending on the genre of music. Words count more in country/western and folk than they might in some rock and jazz.

- Linda

FIRST:
"Anyway, I'd like it if we could break out of the music industry-cult mentality and establish our own criteria. Who knows? Maybe the industry will follow us for a change?"

Applause! Applause! That whole "cult following" mentality about music is so Jr. High School. You know: "I'll like it if my friend likes it..." Aaaaarrrrggghhhh! It's disgusting!
Excellent observation, Easy Hero!

NEXT:
As far as judging the entries, I found that the absence of music made it easier for me to appreciate the lyrics in and of themselves. You see, there are certain musical styles of which I'm really not very fond. In reading some of the lyrics, I guessed what the accompanying music MIGHT be, but NOT knowing for certain kept the lyric shining in its own light. I know there are lyrics I voted for which I would not normally have considered at all, had I heard their accompanying music.

The winners for which I voted hit my emotions hard--some, through humor and wit; others, with poignancy of situation or vivid imagery.

The worst included trite, over-worn phrases and threadbare cliches, too-common topical matter, amazingly amateur attempts, or deadly "sappiness".

Many revealed well their intended musical style through the rhythm of the lyric throughout the song. While this would never bring a lyric a winning vote in and of itself, it cast favorable light on the composer for his/her knowledge of at least one aspect of good songwriting.

I paid absolutely no attention to rhyme or scheme because a song's melody, structure and accompaniment has a huge effect on how the lyric is to be phrased and sung. Had this been a poetry contest, those things would have been more important. As a lyric contest, however, I felt they were moot points.

Overall, in reading the entries, I found both brilliance and baseness "side by side", as it were. It has, indeed, been a learning experience. Thank you for the opportunity to judge...and to be judged.

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www.mp3.com/crisisrocks
www.mp3.com/dianatyler

Hello Brian and members of "JustPlainFolks"
First off, thanx for the opportunity to enter in the lyrics contest.
I can tell you that I felt somewhat guilty about entering, when being a newbie and knowing that there are so many persons here that participate daily. However, I felt that it was an open opportunity and one that I was not willing to miss out on..SO, one more time..Thanx!
I also voted and yes it took a long time to get through all the lyrics, however,I did not begrudge the effort as it takes a long time to become a talented and well versed lyricist, thus deserving of the time it took to get through them all.
I am a die-hard traditional country writer. One that has had little experience critiquing others material..it does not come easily for me. When I put my creative ideas on paper, they are words that come from my heart..whether in pain or comedy, they are from the heart. I based all the songs on this same premise..I am sure that all writers of words use their hearts when choosing the plot and then the mind when trying to get it out there in the best possible crafting.
If it made me laugh or cry, it went down on the top of the list. I read and reread until I had the 5 songs that made me feel the most.
I believe they are all winners, as it takes courage to post..way to go winners!
Rae

First, thank you to all involved in making this contest available.

Regarding people entering their "worst" lyrics.....I have always been told that "we are our own worst critics". Time and time again, I find that the lyrics I like the best are the ones that get the bad critiques from the boards. The ones I think would sink like an anchor are the ones that people like the best. This was the premise I used in picking the lyric to enter....I picked one of the lyrics I don't necessarily think is my best one, but it is one that everybody else liked, and it didn't get any negative critiques on the boards.

As far as picking the entries, I didn't vote for myself for two reasons....1. I would like my song to win on it's own merit, and not because I was the deciding vote, and 2. I wouldn't have picked it anyway, because there were a gazillion others that I thought were better. (another example of us being our own worst critics)

I did what, it seems from the posts here, a lot of people didn't do. I picked the lyrics that I thought would end up being published. My feeling is that a lyric (as opposed to a poem) must "read" as good as it "sings". It's true that SOME badly-written lyrics will sound good with the right music, but ALL well-crafted lyrics will sound good with music.
So, those that were 10 verses long, I skipped. Those that didn't get my attention with the first verse, I skipped, as well as the ones that didn't have a song structure (i.e. poetry), good meter, and a good rhyming pattern. I also overlooked those that used words which would require a dictionary by my side at all times.

A comment on judging a lyric on "artistic merit" or "commercialism"........it all depends on whether or not you want to get the song published. To me, if a song has artistic merit AND meets the criteria of an A&R person, publisher, etc., it is a good lyric.

One last comment.....I, too, am disappointed that not even 1/3 of the people who entered this contest actually voted. I expected that almost everyone who entered would vote, if only to cast a vote for their own song. I'd be very interested to know the reasons why some people who entered didn't think it was important enough to vote....
Once again, thanks to everyone!!
Bluelitenin

FYI,

I know the reason a large number of people didn't vote. Most (i.e. WAY over 50% if not 75%) of the people who entered are NOT regular or even infrequent message board posters. Because I was on the road and couldn't send out a newsletter or bulletin, no one even KNEW when the voting started or the rules unless they were actively checking the message boards. Had I sent out in the newsletter that voting was happening and the rules, I am guessing we'd have had a lot more folks voting. My guess is a lot of folks were just waiting to see the announcement in the newsletter that voting was starting.

But I decided that since this was a matter of a LOT of work to get through 500+ lyrics, I wanted those most actively involved and interested to do it. By looking at voting patterns, I think we got a pretty honest and probably pretty accurate feel for what people liked. I do think that some brilliant lyrics got largely passed over simply because of the vast number of entries. Having another 200-500 people vote I don't think would have changes the voting patterns dramatically. With this many entries, there's really no better way I can think to do this with open voting.

We could, I suppose, have folks enter lyrics by genre next time. But I could take nearly any lyric and make it nearly any genre through production.

I am always open to ways to improve. But the solution would not include any sort of program to force someone to vote. After all, I really don't WANT someone's vote if they are forced. They won't be motivated to do it for the right reasons that way. I'll take 100 voluntary, passionately interested votes over 1000 disinterested ones any day.

Brian

I think it's better to categorize them by genre as you have done with the music portion of the contest. A good many lyrics can support many styles of music but not all of them can. There are some limitations. Although I don't want to see our lyric boards categorized by genre, I think the contest should be. What would happen if the music portion were not separated by genre? Would all the genres be represented by the final votes? I don't think they would. A great children's song cannot compete with a great rock or country song. Many religious songs cannot compete with secular songs. It's the content question. Apples and oranges.

Oh, by the way, do we get to know which songs made it to the finals?



[This message has been edited by JeanB (edited 10-22-2002).]

Hello, all. I agree with Jean on the question of genres for the lyric contest. In addition to her good points, I think lyricists often do write with a particular genre in mind, and gear their lyrics to work well in that genre. And whether or not it does work well in the particular genre would be another standard for judging that work. Linda

I don't do this often, but I am gonna disagree with Jean on this one. I have written lyrics that I knew were country lyrics for a country song. Then I had a gifted composer ask if he could do the music.

I said yes. (My mama may not have raised any hadsome sons, but she didn't raise any complete idiots, either.) Then he told me he saw it as a straight, edgy rock song. I had already said, yes....so I say go for it.

The song, based on his musical interpretation, not my lyric, stayed at number one on the soundclick rock chart for over six weeks.

I think labeling a lyric with a genre is premature...but I have been wrong a lot.<g>

dawg

But, Dawg, I'll bet that doesn't mean you didn't write a great country lyric!

That's one song, Dawg. Could it have been done in all the genres? Could the song work as a Children's song or as a punk, etc.

There could actually be an Open category, where the song is not classified because it is multigenrecal. LOL. I know that isn't a word.

Heck Jean,

I am not the only one. One of our mentors, Pete Luboff tells the story of how he was surprized when the chorus of a lyric he had written as pop, ended up as a Snoop Dog hip-hop song.

dawg (not snoop)

LOL, Dawg. That would be interesting to hear. I agree that many lyrics can be adapted. Just not all. So an open category would accomodate lyrics that are crossover types.


Sis

Gotta agree with Dawg. Sometimes a melody dictates where a lyric will go. I just had what I thought was a tried and true traditional country song turn big ballad, almost bluesy. Go figure, Jeannette

With all due respect to JeanB (and, having read many of her posts, that respect has been earned), I, too, have to agree with Greydog on this one.

A lyric--being judged solely as a lyric, and NOT as part of a complete song--should be judged on its own merit; its genre shouldn't make any difference. If, when reading the lyric, a certain style comes to the reader's mind, that would be one person's impression...but it may not be reality. Should a lyric bring MORE than one style to mind...ah, now we have something more interesting to bring to the table...

A GREAT lyric might very well bleed over into several styles. We shouldn't be too ready to stuff someone's lyric into a cubbyhole of our own labeling.

Would we insist on knowing who the intended singer is before judging a lyric? Or who will produce the song? No, because it's not relevant to the lyric or its story. The lyric--in a LYRIC COMPETITION--should stand on its own. (Are poetry competitions divided into categories, i.e., "poems about love", "poems about dogs", "poems about people who love dogs", "poems about dogs who love poetry...and the people who love and write poems about them", etc.? Perhaps they are, since I don't know much about poety contests! But I don't think so; and a lyric's genre isn't important to the judging process unless the lyric is part of a SONG competition.)

To summarize: The packaging of a product should never attempt to interfere with the product's Truth. (Yeah, I know --the music industry is one of the worst offenders of this particular opinion! lol)


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www.mp3.com/crisisrocks
www.mp3.com/dianatyler

Although I think I started out as a "throw it all in the pot" advocate, I guess I'm tending to lean towards the separate categories for lyrics. While it's true that any given lyric may work in more than one musical genre, there are some good reasons for having separate categories.

First of all, the problem of a lyric fitting across genres is easily solved, the same way that song submissions are handled in contests -- you may submit the same song in as many categories as you like.

But I think the main reason for having different categories is not so much that songs can be written in different styles as that they address different sensibilities. "Genres" are really not so much musical categories as they are audience categories. There are different narrative functions served in the various musical genres, and what may be important to a C&W fan may not be to a hip-hop fan, and vice-versa. It's hard for me to imagine that Christian lyrics can be competently judged by someone who holds such things in contempt, or that Eminem could get a fair hearing from a Christian panel of judges. I know that I was really turned off by a couple songs that I thought displayed some technical competence but were offense in their content.

There are different stylistic techniques, narrative approaches, vocabularies, and themes for these different genres. I don't think it really is fair to judge them all together, and I don't think it is fairly representative to force one style of lyric to trump another.

As someone has already pointed out, it just doesn't make sense to judge a folk song against R&B, for example.

So I vote for categories.

Where do we vote?

Michael R. J. Roth

After re-reading these posts, it seems that there are two different ideas of "genre" that are emerging. There is the genre relating to the style of the music and genre relating to the subject matter.

A style of music is pop, jazz, country, hip-hop, rock etc. Almost any style of music can deal with almost any lyrical subject matter. There are many musical genres of love songs, and also of inspirational songs. Christian/gospel, for example,can be pop, rock, country, blue-grass and jazz.

We need to decide what is meant by genre when we are talking about lyrics. Linda

I think SweetSong's last comment makes the best point for why genre should NOT be an issue in a lyric contest. Just because it is easy to stereotype the subject matter of various genres, I think we are stifling ourselves creatively if we think we have to write certain lyrics of certain subject matters if we want to write in a certain genre. Maybe going "outside of the box" won't sale, but to me that is secondary to being creative and expressing your ideas in whatever way you choose. (I admit this is easier for me to say since I don't rely on songwriting as my source of income - though I wish I could!) So let the "lyrics" stand alone in a "lyric contest". Well that's my 2 cents on this issue.

I think I agree with Diane's post.

Again, this is a great discussion and I think a great education which should help all of us, regardless of which side we agree with, to evaluate lyrics, genres and how pre-conceptions may bias (good or bad) our writing and approaches.

Keep it up!

Brian

On the other hand...

Sometimes a lyric needs to be viewed in some kind of context in order to fairly critique it.

Imagine if you came across the lyrics to "Springtime For Hitler" for the first time in these forums or in a contest. If you don't know it's a song intended to be part of a musical comedy, could you critique it fairly?

And how many different musical styles can you come up with for "Springtime For Hitler"? Make some interesting postings on the MP3 Forum!!

[This message has been edited by sweetsong (edited 10-25-2002).]

I just checked other songwriting contests and they don't have the lyrics only divided into categories. I have a feeling that may occur in some lyric contests but apparently not in any songwriting contests.

Jean

I'm still trying to find out what "multigenrecal" means! :: but from Jean's comment, I think that's the category most of my writings would fall into!

I've been watching this post with curiosity and I'd be one of those on the fence. Somethings I write and I know it will come out country; others I try for anything OTHER than country and never really know until the words find their partner in music. Also, if I were to be looking on the lyric boards and trying to assist in critiquing, I would probably stick with the genre most comfortable for me and wouldn't venture far beyond that. Being and participating on a lyric board where I have a potpourrie of selections is also encouraging me as a writer to try different styles as I'm exposed to them. If we ever DO split, look for my lyrics under "multigenrecal" or "Other" <smile>

..and on the other hand.... (I'm running out of hands...)

for example, Cyrus Chestnut, a great contemporary jazz pianist not only recorded a jazz version of Beethoven's "Fur Elise" it's a LATIN Jazz version! Go, figure!

I read on another board that the old Hank Williams honkey-tonk standard "Move It On Over" has been covered and re-released by a boy band as a pop song.

Thanks to Blue Lightnin' for that tidbit.

dawg

And of course that same song (Move It On Over) was a big rockin' blues hit for George Thourhgood (spelling?) as well.

BB

BINGO!
Well, here's what I think.....(yeah, once in a while that happens, lol).

Speaking from my own experiences...when I write a lyric (I don't write music), I ALWAYS write in the country genre'. So far, of the 15 or so completed songs I have, four of them are get-down blues/jazz, one is big-band-easy listening, two are rock, two are folk music, one is bluegrass, and the others are country. This tells me that a lyric can be interpreted in many different ways. I swore that they were all country-oriented, but that goes to show ya what I know, lol.....
As Dawg mentioned, 'Move It On Over' was just released by some "hip-hop" group, and as
BB.B said, was also released as an R&B song.
Now, I doubt that ole Hank was thinkin' "hip-hop", when he wrote that song. There are a lot of other examples along these lines.
So, in my opinion, a lyric can be any genre'. It all depends on the music. I realize that there are slightly different criteria that come into play when writing for one genre' or another, but a good lyric should be able to fit most.
There are some genre's that require certain lyrics....gospel, hymn's, Christian, etc. However, as someone else mentioned, even these can have rock, blues, jazz, country, or any other type of music and still fit into that genre. For example, "I Saw The Light" has been done in probably every genre.

Just some thoughts.......

Bluelitenin

Boy, this is getting complicated!

"Springtime for Hitler" (which I LOVE, by the way) is a GOOD LYRIC because it TELLS the listener that it's a farce by the voiceover lyrics that are part of the song: "Come on, Germans, go into your dance". "I was born in Dusseldorf; that is why they call me Rolf." "Don't be stupid, be a smartie: Come and join the Nazi party." I mean, who could take that stuff seriously???

Now, WITHOUT those lyrical cues, we probably wouldn't know the intent of the song, and would, most probably, condemn it (AND its composer!). This vagueness would make it a BAD LYRIC.

BUT...let's say "Springtime for Hitler" was entered into a SONG competition, WITHOUT those lyric cues that signalled its satirical intent. And let's say that the music behind the lyrics is so obviously cheesey that the listener is able to pick up on the musical "raspberries" that Mel Brooks is giving the Nazis...THEN it can be judged a GOOD SONG!!

I don't know about you folks, but I'm starting to get a headache on this one!

I LOVE your idea of imagining this song in different genres...what a hoot! I think it's time for the fat lady to sing this one! :-)



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www.mp3.com/crisisrocks
www.mp3.com/dianatyler

Diane, I've already been hitting the aspirin over this one! Linda

Here are a few of my thoughts on this -

Regardless of the genre, a strong lyric paints a picture, grabs you in the heart, and makes you feel like a part of the song...
When I read lyrics by Bob Dylan, Joni Mitchell, Laura Nryo and Paul Simon - to name a few of my favorites -the words really do stand on their own. In my opinion, many great songs can be sung in lots of styles, because the lyrics are so meaningful. The writer has something important to say, and the style in which it is performed is only part of the presentation.

Here is an example of different genres for a lyric. I have done music for a lot of great lyric writers on this forum. When I wrap a melody around the words, I do a practice cassette to send to my co-writer. Almost all of them are given at least three different arrangements, but,I think Judy Hollier gets the prize for the most genres for one lyric in my book. I sent her a tape with seven very different full arrangements of the same song. It was Pop/Rock/Blues/Waltz/Latin/Techno beat cool/Boogie/Power Ballad. Same words, same melody, different arrangements, tempos, and feel. She chose the flavor for the demo. so I know for sure it can be done. I vote no genre for the lyric contest. Let the finished song with the music and the taste of the performer determine that. I have been reading some of the new lyrics on the boards and I must say that I have recently, without namung names, read at least three new ones that are real winners. I never realized there were so many fine writers out there. This site seems to harbor some of the best on the web IMHO. Thanks, Brian, for the opportunity to network and write with greats from all over the world. Idamarie

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JeanB:
A great children's song cannot compete with a great rock or country song. Many religious songs cannot compete with secular songs.


I might be taking this a little out of context, but the main dicussion of "genre-fying" is contained in this portion.
......and my [rhetorical] question would be: Why not?

Gordon Lightfoot wrote a children's song that has beguiled his fans for decades. ("The Pony Man".) If I were to be judging a lyric contest and saw that lyric pop up (sans the Lightfoot moniker, mind you), you can bet your Uncle Charlie and the mortgage that it would be a BIG contender.
My contention will always be that a strong lyric is a strong lyric. That means different things to different Folks, but ain't that what it's all about?
See if you don't think this would be a contender! "Hove" and "trove" (?); dunno 'bout that one. (You fans of "visuals" will dig this...)

Oops! that link died; here's another; click on "t" for "the", then click on the title...
http://www.corfid.com/gl/songs.htm
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Ozone
http://www.mp3.com/OzonePete

[This message has been edited by Ozone Pete (edited 10-27-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Ozone Pete (edited 10-29-2002).]

Hi, Pete!

Why? Because the judges will be adults. And if those adults have not worked with children extensively or can see the lyric through a child's eyes they will not be able to recognize how great the lyric is.

Some people think that a child's song needs to be simple and repetitive. There is more to it than that.

Look at the song you mentioned. I never heard of it. IMO the one of the best children's song ever written is the "Itsy Bitsy Spider." AKA "Eensy Weensy," "Itty Bitty: and other variations.

A great lyric is one that endures, is well loved, easy to remember and has managed to keep its basic structure and charm despite the many variations of it.

I have taught hundreds of children and everyone of them loved that song. It is a great lyric because it tells a graphic story that never ends. It allows for hand gestures that children absolutely adore making. I won't go into the melody because that is apart from the lyric thing here.

Imagine if that song had been introduced for the first time in the contest and no one had ever heard it, how many people would really have given it that much consideration?

Likewise with holiday or religious lyrics. Those who judge those lyrics need to be familiar with the aspects of the categories to know whether or not it is a great lyric.

They are in a class by themselves.

JeanB

A point being missed here I am sure is.
Judges will also be selected for their ability to decide how words are used no matter what genre the lyrics suggest.
Regards.
Graham

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http://www.songramp.com/homepage.ez?Who=grahamhenderson

I wasn't going to comment on this until I realized: if the contest were broken into lyric genres, I wouldn't have entered.

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Mike Dunbar Music

I second that emotion... If a lyric is good, it's good. I don't feel that it's necessary to know that it's bad hip hop instead of bad pop-country. I don't think I'd give any leeway to a mediocre lyric if I knew its intended genre...

In the marketplace all lyrics...all songs... are competing for the same $19.95 of disposable, discretionary income. It is not a necessity like food, water, air and shelter. It does not rank as high as clothing, medication, or transportation.

It competes with all other genres of music, as well as lipstick, a six-pack of beer or a book to read. I feel the genre of any given lyric is a matter of personal preference for both the writer and the reader.

dawg