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#180448 - 11/14/02 08:44 PM Re: Low replies, Posting lyrics, Critiques, My thoughts, Add yours.  
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 10,330
Jean Bullock Offline
Jean Bullock  Offline

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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 10,330
Anaheim, CA, USA
Hi, Stan!

I did send you an E-thank you, but I am thanking you here as well.


Hi, kc and Pancho. Thank you for your replies. We discussed having a read only forum, where helpful posts can be displayed. I am hoping in the coming year that this will be possible. I'm glad you found this thread helpful.

Hi, Z-man!

Thanks for reading and replying.

I agree with you that many people want to be positive in their postings and mayshy away from songs that don't appeal to them or songs about which they don't feel they can say anything positive.

I also agree that avoiding the songs are not helpful to the poster and it makes them feel as if they are being ignored.

Sometimes it's helpful if the songwriter bumps up a post that is slipping off the page with a reassuring comment to let the readers know that he or she can accept critques well and that it is OK to say that the song needs work.

JeanB


[This message has been edited by JeanB (edited 11-14-2002).]


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#180450 - 11/14/02 10:09 PM Re: Low replies, Posting lyrics, Critiques, My thoughts, Add yours.  
Joined: Sep 2001
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Jean Bullock Offline
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Joined: Sep 2001
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Anaheim, CA, USA
That's understandable, Noel. Sometimes if I don't feel I have anything of value to contribute, I just tell them that and let them know that I did read the post.

JeanB


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#180451 - 11/15/02 12:23 AM Re: Low replies, Posting lyrics, Critiques, My thoughts, Add yours.  
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,448
Ande Rasmussen Offline
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Ande Rasmussen  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,448
Martindale, TX, USA
this is a great thread
I didn't read it all
but here's a few thoughts

when giving a critique I write
these are a few suggestions you might want to consider.

point out good things

point out areas that could be improved

get an idea about who the writer is
and how far along they are
ie be tougher on experienced writers
than beginners

it's scary for a beginner to begin
pasting lyrics on the internet
but for most it's an important step
beginners are convinced they need to registered copy right everything they write before someone steals it

encourage the writer
offer suggestions for their song

on posting a lyric
let a lyric sit for a while
a week or two before you post it
maybe a week or two
there's no hurry

consider what people suggest

if you want people to
critique your songs
the golden rule works

don't paste a bunch of songs
just do one or two a week

good luck

ande


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#180452 - 11/15/02 02:06 AM Re: Low replies, Posting lyrics, Critiques, My thoughts, Add yours.  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 319
kc Offline
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kc  Offline
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Posts: 319
Humboldt, TN. USA
That is very good advice Ande, I'm learning as I go and of course making mistakes also!
But I'm an old dog trying to learn new tricks!
Thanks for everyones help!

kc

#180453 - 11/21/02 05:43 PM Re: Low replies, Posting lyrics, Critiques, My thoughts, Add yours.  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 631
thunder_road_2051 Offline
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Posts: 631
Still the same clicks as a1 something was starting to point out in lyric forum 2. If people offer suggestions and the person asks if this will be ok or for help on a line my natural assumption would be they would go back, offer suggstions if asked for.

Call this as I see it. A few nights ago there were only two songs with no replies. Someone came posted her lyric. She got some replies right away. Instead of choosing one of the lyrics with no replies she hops down to a person she knows and posts. She continues down the ones she knows. I think she could have took the time to replied about lyrics with no responses as well as those who went to her lyric.
Later,
Carl

#180454 - 11/21/02 07:06 PM Re: Low replies, Posting lyrics, Critiques, My thoughts, Add yours.  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 203
EasyHero Offline
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EasyHero  Offline
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Rio Rancho NM
I want to ditto TampaStan -- if we could just rate, say on a 1-5 scale, you'd probably get more feedback. Even just a registration of number of hits would probably be helpful.


Award-winning, original acoustic songs with "the kind of lyrics that make Nashville writers salivate."
#180455 - 11/27/02 10:09 PM Re: Low replies, Posting lyrics, Critiques, My thoughts, Add yours.  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 539
TheCiscoKid Offline
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TheCiscoKid  Offline
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Posts: 539
central Illinois
Jean... I must also add that you've created a fine thread of thought here. I'm very new to the message boards and am finding it a very good place to share thoughts.
My first thoughts in only recently viewing the Lyrics posts were:
A. Damn... there are a LOT of songs posted here for opinions!
B. What's up with the songs which are not getting many replies? Are they deemed poor, thus not approached by critics?
C. Probably not (re "B."). I bet there are simply too many songs, and too few critics.

As one other person (at least) has stated here, I'm sure there is a bit of favoritism towards active members recognizing posts of other active members, and thus not a lot of folks not automatically going to the posts of unknowns or newbies. That's very typical of any message board or group...a simple dynamic which develops from acquired friendships, etc. The newbies will always suffer a bit until people begin to recognize them. It's nobody's fault, nor should anyone take it as a put-down. I'm aware of this from other groups I've been involved with.
I would say there are probably tons of members here who want some assistance or peer review of their works...yet not nearly as many who are eager to take the time needed to be helpful in that manner.
Perhaps the key in seeing to it that all people get proper recognition/acknowledgement would be found in stimulating others to take the time to offer assistance. I certainly don't have the solution for the group as a whole, yet I found one person's comment very applicable in suggesting that the person desiring more responses be creative with the title of their post. The mere viewing of a song title in deciding whether or not to read a post is not a lot to go by. In fact it can be very misleading.
Which post title would you investigate first: 1. "My Baby" or 2. "My Darling Thou Art Swine" or 3. Is this song brutal suckage, or what?" ???

Generally the most stimulating title would win the most attention. With #1 being perhaps the least stimulating, it could go ignored shamefully, and remain the best song in the lot.
I wish I had more ideas for encouraging more people to participate as critics, but I think it's safe to suggest the newbies should get involved more than they probably do. The "serious contributors" certainly have their hands full if they are supposed to address every song posted for review.

My lenghty two cents [Linked Image]
-GaryP

#180456 - 11/30/02 03:05 AM Re: Low replies, Posting lyrics, Critiques, My thoughts, Add yours.  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,806
Bobbie Gallup (D) Offline
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Bobbie Gallup (D)  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,806
Nashville, TN, USA
I had posted the comments below on a thread in the lyric forum 2 where someone was concerned that folks were not commenting on his songs.. After posting it, KC suggested that my comments needed to be reposted over on this thread...which, of course, I then had to come looking for. I admit to being one of those who don't spend a lot of time reading many other message boards on here due to limited time. My bad. On the off chance that these opinions are of any help to anyone else, I will happily share them. They are, after all, merely my opinions. In the past I have also shared my version of a critique sheet with several new posters who have asked for assistance. I will drag that out and share it with you. I would hate to see us adopt any specific form. However, the critique sheet is valuable for new folks just to understand what sorts of things to look for in a song to help them do a better job of analyzing what works and doesn't...and to be able to articulate why. I never refer to it anymore but I think it can be a very valuable tool when you are first starting to try to understand what to look for in a lyric (or an entire song).

While I do understand people's frustration with not getting 30 or more responses to their songs, there are some issues at work here that probably need to consider before biting the hand that you want to feed you (complaining about the behavior of the 'regulars'). Since I have posted at JPF as long as anyone still hanging around here (since summer of 1999), I have seen a lot of songwriters, some good and some not, come and go. During that time, I have learned more about songwriting than I could have ever learned from books, seminars or even just sitting in a room listening to records and writing by myself. I do not set myself up as any guru here by any means, but I have made some observations over the past 3+ years that may help some folks...depending on the willingness to listen...and learn.

Technology can be great. In the case of the JPF Lyric forum, it has connected a lot of good folks. While I cannot speak for everyone, I know I do speak for a lot when I say, I have met and made a lot of friends here. I know that to be true because back in June, my hubby and I issued an open invitation for JPF folks to join us for a music fest here in TN...and over 215 people showed up for 3 days of music and fun. A clique??? Not hardly...just a bunch of fine folks who truly like each other and enjoyed spending time together. Like each other enough to travel, in some cases from Australia and the UK to get together here. Do I read the stuff they post? While I don't have unlimited time...nor do they...I definitely make a sincere effort to read the lyrics these folks post..and I know they do the same for mine. Why? Because over time, we have invested a lot in each other. You will notice that some of the regulars here have thousands of posts. They did not get those high numbers solely by putting up their own lyrics and responding to people who comment on their own songs. No...they got those numbers because they actually spend MORE of their time analyzing the lyrics of other people and trying to help them if possible. That analysis time is also how I feel I have learned the most..and it is the learning part that keeps me (and a lot of others) coming back here.

The reality here is that most people who post here, including the regulars, have to work also. Many of them have families to care for. We do not have unlimited time to comment on anyone's work. We post and critique because we want to...not because we have to. Through the years I cannot tell you how many people I have spent a LOT of time working with both on and off the board. I do it because I enjoy it..and because in most cases those people made me feel as though they appreciated the time and effort I put into working with them. I do not have time to read or comment on every song posted here. Over time, we all develop an appreciation and respect for the work of certain other writers. We all tend to check out the lyrics that those individuals write, often times just because we just want to see and enjoy their latest lyric. Sometimes we only have time to say we like it or offer a few thoughts that might help out.

A real critique is work. I am not talking about the "hey I like this" kind of kudos...but the ones where someone actually spends that analysis time looking at form, structure, rhyme scheme, testing the meter out to ensure it is working and consistent, looking at the overall concept for story flow, metaphors and other imagery, and then spends even more time putting those thoughts on the screen in such a manner as to be polite and non-threatening to the poster. It also entails being specific about why we think something is good or needs improvement and backing that up with examples and ideas for potential solutions. That is often not easy nor fast. That stuff takes more than a casual read. When we do offer our thoughts on a song, it certainly doesn't mean we believe that our point of view is the only way to see it...but it does mean that we are offering you our perspective. You are then free to accept and use or toss those ideas as you wish. After all, that is precisely what a publisher or producer will give you when you get to that point with your work...so we are just a 'pre-test' of the responses your work might receive.
* I tend to respond to songs where I feel my comments might be of some help to the poster. That is to say if I honestly feel I can make a contribution via my point of view or some specific suggestion that comes to me as I am reading their lyric.
* If I have commented on someone's song(s) and that person does not acknowledge my comments, it makes me feel as though my comments were not appreciated. Eventually, I stop spending a lot of time reading or commenting on that person's work.
*If someone has done the courtesy of reading my work over and leaving me their insights, I will tend to check to see if they have something posted and will read and comment on their lyric also.
* While many of my songs are intended for a country audience, I have also written blues, pop, gospel, and a lot of lyrics where the genre is open to whatever a composer might feel when they read the words. Unless the words are pretty specifically aimed at one niche, the music will determine the genre. As a result, I have learned not to categorize a lyric by genre, but to keep an open mind when reading someone else's writing. Even though I may feel more comfortable critiquing certain genres of songs, I think good writing is apparent regardless of genre.
* Sometimes the words will simply not appeal to me...Personally, I don't tend to like songs that are really dark or filled with venom. I think the world has plenty of that and don't think we as songwriters need to add more, though I respect anyone's right to write whatever they feel compelled to write or sing about. That doesn't mean I feel any compulsion to comment on songs like that.
* Sometimes I feel a song needs more work than I have time at that moment to get into.
* I read a lot more songs than I have time to comment on. I have to pick and choose where to spend my time.
* Sometimes I read a song and I just can't come up with anything positive or constructive to say about it..so I say nothing.
* If the writer's intro indicates the song already has music or it is already on a cd, I tend not to spend much time on it because it is too constraining to work within those parameters since the writer has already invested too much in the song to be willing to make any changes at that point.
* If a writer posts songs "expecting" critiques without spending time reading and commenting on other people's work, we (at least the regulars) eventually notice that.
* From my years as a college professor, there are two things a poster can do that will ensure I DON'T spend a lot of time on their work: WHINING and ARROGANCE are surefire turnoffs to me. The "poor me-pity party" stuff doesn't work with me anymore. I am generous with my time, but when someone gets insulting to folks here why would I waste my limited time trying to help them? It's not gonna happen.
* Even when we disagree with each other on here, most of us try very hard to not get offensive or defensive..as neither of those serves any constructive purpose.
* If someone posts an intro that indicates that they think they have "worked out all the flaws".. or are merely sharing what they already feel is a "final draft" that is going to give most folks a message that it is now beyond change and they don't think there could be any improvements at that point..so why should we bother to comment on it at that point?
* When people do make the effort to offer suggestions for your songs, if the overriding attitude is one that anyone here OWES you something, that is going to be a big turnoff, at least to me.
* Bumping your own song up...well, that is just plain tacky IMO. The inherent message? "My song is more important than your song." It comes off as an immature, in-your-face behavior that won't endear you to many folks here. I know others may disagree with that issue, but when I see someone repeatedly bumping their own song up, I simply do not comment.

I respect talent. But respect has to be earned. Don't just tell me how great your stuff is...show me. Then have enough grace and patience to allow me to discover it of my own volition, thank you.

Bobbie


They'll tell you success in the music biz is all about who you know...but the truth is...it's about who knows you.

Gallup 'n Dawg Music
#180457 - 11/30/02 04:03 PM Re: Low replies, Posting lyrics, Critiques, My thoughts, Add yours.  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 313
Teri Foreman-Black Offline
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Teri Foreman-Black  Offline
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Posts: 313
Royersford, PA USA
And from a "newbie" who has benefitted from Bobbie's experience and critiques and by her simply reaching out, you'll find me in total agreement with her post...although I am readily admitting that clearly my time and ability to effectively critique lyrics will never compare to hers.

Yes, there are definitely groupings of regulars AND newbies; being one of the latter, I will say that the benefits I've received from my own posts are directly proportionate to any efforts I've put forth on others'. I still find it horrifically challenging to critique others' lyric posts in a constructive manner as some of the regulars are able to do, yet I still try and I learn as I go by reading others' critiques.

I've been reading this thread with interest...

#180458 - 11/30/02 06:09 PM Re: Low replies, Posting lyrics, Critiques, My thoughts, Add yours.  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,290
Sharon I. Wells Offline
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Sharon I. Wells  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,290
Fairview, Ks. USA
Brian, Jean, as a more prolific composer than a lyricist, I read probably more lyrics at any given time I'm on the board...I don't always have the time to comment esp. on those that have already been given enough "nits" to take care of for a while...but as Brian said I've learned a lot about lyric writing plus the knowledge of how lyrics and music fits together to become a song that fits together...I'd volunteer for moderator but things are still up in the air for me medically and physically....but at the same time; I generally do try to
"catch" the "0" replies or low numbered ones....even then it's hard to critique sometimes and you figure out why someone else hasn't already said something. Sometimes lyrics are completely out of our scope of experience; and all we could say about them would be format....but then if the lyricist doesn't say what genre he/she is looking at for a particular lyric...then to discount a certain format of a lyric because it doesn't fit the appros of a country lyric...then the lyricist comes back at you and says well this is blues, jazz or some other genre that doesn't always necessarily follow the format of country....so I think the open handed critique is best and only if we understand where the lyricist wants the lyric to go....JMHOP

#180459 - 11/30/02 09:28 PM Re: Low replies, Posting lyrics, Critiques, My thoughts, Add yours.  
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 237
songman Offline
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songman  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 237
Sunland, Ca
It's such a "Country" dominated situation with the regulars and such on the lyric boards, kind of a Good Ol' Boys club, if you will. I haven't read the lyric boards in the better part of a year. This is a drag because it's what originally attracted me to JPF. I figure it's their domain so Let It Be. I do however appreciate the other parts of JPF and so I'll continue to enjoy the communication. Say what you will, but there is a VERY strong underlying theme that predominates the lyric boards here at JPF. This probably has added to other individuals "shining it on." My two cents..... TJ Sullivan


TJ Sullivan
#180460 - 12/01/02 01:41 AM Re: Low replies, Posting lyrics, Critiques, My thoughts, Add yours.  
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,528
Blake Hill Offline
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Blake Hill  Offline
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dallas, texas usa
Hey TJ,

I do remember reading and posting on some of your lyrics that you posted. Sad to see you aren't still doing so. Yes, it's mainly a country dominated board, but there's alot of Contemporary Christian, Folk/Americana and some occasional rock stuff posted too. The reason it's so country dominated is because it's the main genre where musician's don't always write their own material; thus, it's the one genre (IMHO) where it's easiest to get a cut as a songwriter (though getting a cut is NOT easy). So i'm pretty sure that's why there's all the country lyrics.
As far as a good ol boys network; call it what you will, but i'd prefer to call it a big group of friends who don't exclude anyone into the group. People such as Teri, who are new to the board, have readily jumped right in and become a part of the group. The people that jump in and become a part of group will readily attest to the "regulars" willingness to help anyone out as time permits them to. Everyone was a newbie at one time, and those that are persistent tend to stick around.
That's my viewpoint anyway. I'll check around to see if ya post again. [Linked Image]

#180461 - 12/01/02 03:26 PM Re: Low replies, Posting lyrics, Critiques, My thoughts, Add yours.  
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 10,330
Jean Bullock Offline
Jean Bullock  Offline

Top 10 Poster

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 10,330
Anaheim, CA, USA
Hi, Everybody!
I haven't had time to thank everyone personally for contributing to this topic, (Not much time to do critiques either, sorry.) so thank you all very much. It a very good discussion.

JeanB


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#180462 - 12/01/02 04:05 PM Re: Low replies, Posting lyrics, Critiques, My thoughts, Add yours.  
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 237
songman Offline
Serious Contributor
songman  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 237
Sunland, Ca
Hi blakeh, Thanks for the reply. Please understand I certainly meant no misgivings for the Good Ol' Boy line, having lived in Fort Worth it's just what I came out of it with. I think you all have a great time within your circle. Truth is when a writer who doesn't cater to the country side of life tries to post on the lyric boards, there's not much constructive imput that is available. This makes it a limited venue for posting. You all seem like a great bunch of writers trying to do the best you can.
Regards, Tj


TJ Sullivan
#180463 - 12/01/02 04:41 PM Re: Low replies, Posting lyrics, Critiques, My thoughts, Add yours.  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 319
kc Offline
Serious Contributor
kc  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 319
Humboldt, TN. USA
Miss Bobbie'
I think this was better than the first time I read it! Thankyou and I feel I'm learning alot and appreciate everyone's help.
Just a Good Ol' boy!
kc

#180464 - 12/01/02 10:48 PM Re: Low replies, Posting lyrics, Critiques, My thoughts, Add yours.  
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 93
Dwells Offline
Serious Contributor
Dwells  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 93
Canada
I don't often offer lyric critiques unless the song looks as if it's, in my opinion, "almost there". Trying to offer suggestions on a song that (again in my opinion) needs work in every verse, chorus and bridge doesn't help the writer - it only ends up sounding like you're tearing their work apart. I prefer to think that I'm just not good at critiquing other people's work. I do know what I like when reading a lyric but I think I'm better at nudging and tweaking, rather than telling other songwriters how to go about creating their art. Unless a person is either a "qualified" songwriting instructor or someone who has had years of successful experience, and is able to critique all genres in an articulate and gentle manner then nudging and tweaking is the way to go. Offering advice and direction is always better than giving instructions and quoting from someone else's book. I mean, telling somebody "your song sucks and on page 102 of the songwriting bible it tells exactly why your song sucks" does nothing to help. And again that's just my opinion.

------------------
"I've heard the allegations and I know who the alligators are."
~ Jake Campbell


"I've heard the allegations and I know who the alligators are."
~ Jake Campbell
#180465 - 12/02/02 01:38 PM Re: Low replies, Posting lyrics, Critiques, My thoughts, Add yours.  
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,528
Blake Hill Offline
Top 100 Poster
Blake Hill  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,528
dallas, texas usa
Understood songman, well, I LOVE rock, so if ya ever want an opinion on some of that (though i'm certainly no professional) give me a shout; especially if you have any audio! [Linked Image]

#180466 - 12/02/02 07:37 PM Re: Low replies, Posting lyrics, Critiques, My thoughts, Add yours.  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,290
Sharon I. Wells Offline
Top 100 Poster
Sharon I. Wells  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,290
Fairview, Ks. USA
Well one sure way to "give" some of us who have very little time to post a critique is to "limit" the critiques on any given song to a set number....say for example "20" replies or critiques, then the song becomes blocked for anymore posts....a reminder that there are about 50 other songs needing some posts to get their fair quota of critiques....but then that puts us in the "making" posting rules which Brian has already said, he wasn't for and I actually agree....but yet in the light of being sesible is it necessary for 40-100 replies on a song that most people have aready acclaimed as being one of the best songs on the board for the moment???? As usual, we humans, tend to overdo the good things, but take little time to do that which we're not too sure about or just don't want to get into the "negative" about....Just some thoughts that occured while reading all these posts to this worthwhile subject....

------------------
http://www.mp3.com/sharon_irene_wells

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