JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Brian was right about the INXS Competitors

I just saw Mig sing "Baby I love your Way"
by Peter Frampton better than Peter Frampton ever did it himself.

That was Incredible..

After reading through the thread last week, I finally turned it on & watched some of it tonite. Was especially impressed by Ty & disappointed to see his initial returns coming in so low. Probably something to do with his tongue movements?

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JavaMusiK
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It was a pretty decent night with 2 really weak performances, 2 average performances and 4 really good ones. It seems that Mig and the blonde guy (always forget his name) and Jordis have the inside track. The guy playing the villain was horrible tonight and that's 2 horrible and 1 average performance in the last 3 weeks. He needs to go but won't probably for another couple weeks. The 3 blonde girls are clones, all interchangable and none with a chance in hell of becoming the winner. The other 5 will clearly end up with some type of deal after the show is over, but the villain guy (sorry.. names are all escaping me.. the dark haired malcontent) really have very little vocal ability and he's being exposed for it.

I still think it's a great show and the house band is truly phenomenal. Those are the guys that deserve an even bigger gig after this is over.

Brian

Marty is fun to watch.
He made that Brittany Spears song sound like Nirvana..

Am I the only one that doesn't particularly like Marty? Vocally, he is merely ok (a lot of sour notes during any given performance), and he scares the crap out of me with his facial expressions! I hate to say this, because he seems like a very pleasant guy. I am simply not fond of his style.

And I tell you what, JD got some backlash for going solo for the songwriting project, but I sympathized with him. I refuse to cowrite. I have before, but I am picky about the lyrics and melodies that I'm going to be singing!!! Perhaps, though, that just means he's more of a solo act than a band member. And I do agree...last night JD was crap. He is not consistent, and sometimes sounds like he's on Broadway rather than rocking out in a band.

I'm not a fan of the blonde triplets. None of them are cut out for rock.

Mig was INCREDIBLE last night. It was such a passionate performance. This sounds horrible, but I really hope he doesn't win, because I want to see him do his own thing. He seems like he is just overflowing with creativity that I'm not sure being in INXS would necessarily allow.

Gena

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Sorry, folks..

This is bowling alley karaoke with a live band and bright lights.

These people are all karaoke talents..

Would you really buy their cds or pay to see them in concert?

I can go to several joints in my neighborhood and see just as much talent.

Jeeeez.....have we really come to this?

Bob Young

For some of the contestants, that seems to be true. But most of the participants in the contests have had some decent successes beyond "bowling alley karaoke." That actually makes ME feel bad that you would say that...I'll be auditioning for American Idol this year (which is the biggest karaoke contest of them all), and I would hate for someone to say I was nothing more than a second-rate karaoke artist. That couldn't be further from the truth. The performers on the Rock Star show are just artists who, like me, are looking for a shot somewhere... anywhere. Not everyone in the contest is phenomenal. But I think it's irrefutable that they are all GOOD. And I believe, from what I have heard, that all of them are musicians and/or songwriters as well. Strip down the glitz and the glamor of the show, and you are left with artists like you and I and everyone here who just want to "make it." Gotta respect that.

Gena

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Bob,

You've already established in the past that you have more talent in your neighborhood bars than the entire music industry combined, but the question is why aren't all (or at least SOME) of those folks signed up for label deals then? I've seen 15,000 artists perform in the last 7 years. These artists would be in the top 1500 for sure (i.e. top 10%) and several of them in the top 1% easily. I am sure there are additional talented folks out there I am not seeing, but the ratio I am guessing would be the same.. i.e for ever 1 you produce that is better, there's at least 99 others who aren't as good.

I really think you should gather up that amazing neighborhood talent and get rich and make them famous. All the artists on this show (unlike American Idol) are already professionals making a full time living from music, most have had major label deals and successful commercial track records. It's really a night and day difference from American Idol who intentionally avoids people with significant experience.

I've seen world famous artists tank at live shows quite often. One of the worst concerts I ever saw in my life was REO Speedwagon one year where the vocals were nearly bad enough to be on AI outtakes (and this was their original lineup). It's hard for mere mortals to give stirring top notch performances every week on unfamiliar (or out of style) music that often they had no choice in picking (which was the case this week in INXS Rock Star). I've seen older performers who can totally nail familiar material consistently, but have never seen artists nail that type of diversity under that type of pressure situation every single week or show. Could your neighbors have pulled off a respectable version of Britney Spears in an acoustic rock setting? That's the kind of BS these contestants have to deal with.

But if you didn't think everyone sucked on these shows and only the folks you hang with have talent, you wouldn't be Bob right? = )

Brian

[This message has been edited by Brian Austin Whitney (edited 08-17-2005).]

Brian..et al..

In the first place I never said they all sucked..
What I said was that they were bowling alley karaoke good..
You don't have to come to my neighborhood to see good karaoke singers..
They're everywhere from Dallas to Des Moines to Bumble----.

Brian forgets ( as he often does) that this is a forum for opinions.

That's mine.

Brian thinks that my opinion is weighted against amateurs (apparently)
The untruth of this is evidenced by my constant and unflagging support for TALENTED amateurs.

But...that's OK..

Read into it whatever you like...I cannot be specific about all of the contestants..I have much better things to do with my time than watch TV garbage like this.

The time that I have invested in watching the show has been filled with mediocre performances by mediocre talents.

And, yes...I suppose there is a chance that this multimillion dollar hype machine may result in the kind of success that has come to one or two of the American Idol winners.
It did convince alot of Americans that Kelly Clarkson had real talent....

But.....We love twinkies too.....

I'm not going to continue on this point..I know how much my friend Brian hates dissenting opinion.

Those of you that are enjoying the show..God Bless you.
And to any of you planning to enter the competition for this or any of the other 'REALITY" shows, I say"Good luck and may the force be with you."

And to Brian I say.."C'mon.....relax!"

And by the way, Brian...if I did have my hooks into someone that I thought was truly talented, the LAST thing I would suggest they do is get into a dog and pony show like these.
These shows are about ratings from week to week for the show and not at all about creating real success for the entrants.

Bob Young


[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 08-17-2005).]

All I'm gonna say is that these people on this show probably are not GREAT..
because the status of GREAT is very much overrated these days..
You need to earn great over a lifetime.

but..
I believe some of the folks on these shows once and awhile can give a GREAT performance from time to time.
I saw Clay Aiken do it on American Idol
if anyone remembers him doing "Bridge over Troubled Water" that was a GREAT performance.

I think that most reality shows have become Cliche.
ANd Bob you are right that it is mostly about ratings.
But at least sometimes you might catch a Great performance. And last night that Mig had a great one.
And I have to agree that the level of performing is pretty darn good IF it's not done with smoke and mirrors.

Of course a real test is to come out with a accoustic and no back up band and lets see.

Funny...
Somehow
I knew I would draw you out of your lair if I said Brian was right about something....

Good seeing you getting your Caustic PH up again....

I respect your opinion Bob
you may be right too..

DAvid

I've got to agree with Bob on this one. I've seen the show on and off for a few weeks now and I haven't seen one memorable performance. None of the girls are much more than decent karaoke level singers and the guys aren't a huge amount better.
If, as Brian contends, these people are in the top 1-10% of talent, it might at least explain the sorry state of rock music these days but I just don't buy that they are! IMO, most truly talented artists just don't want or need the hassle and heartache of the music industry. I know guys who are executives and barbers and laborers who'd smoke any of these INXS people vocally. And I mean really put 'em to shame.

All that said, I do enjoy the show in a "Bloopers" sort of way. But to take it as a barometer for real talent? Don't make me laugh.

Boy is this ever true!


peace
sub

Hey, David...

Speaking of great performances, I think you and I share an opinion on the greatest individual performer.

YES....IT'S MR HUNG!!!!!!!

Now, there's a guy I'd pay to go see.

Bob Young

You Betcha!
watch him work the room...

Mani,
Perhaps this IS a case that no actual human lives up to the talent expectations of some people. It's certainly possible that both you and I and Bob are all 100% correct simultaneously. What that would require is that the best talent out there just doesn't live up to what you or Bob would consider good enough.

On a given night on the road, I see 35 artists perform (on average). at those shows, there are generally 0-2 that rise to the level of the talent on that show. It's not always just about vocal talent or a well written song, but also stage presence and that intangible "it" factor. Some folks literally have that "it" factor before they even open their mouths and sing. It's not as simple as attractiveness either. But it's an inherent charisma that just exists without always being easy to describe.

I think it is FAR easier to sound great on a CD than to actually be a great live artist. I also think that being a great live artist is what holds back most indie artists from becoming commercial successes. Some of my all time favorite recorded indie artists fall flat live. It's one reason I emphasize having folks come out and play at Roadtrip shows because I am hesitant to endorse artists only based on their CD's anymore. Sometimes artists are far superior live than on a recording as well. In fact, I find that to be common at roadtrip shows. I see someone who does rise to the very top of their peers on a given night, but their CD leaves me totally cold after the fact and doesn't rise up to their live performance.

I am guessing in the cases of some of these artists on these shows, they've demonstrated some ability in all the factors simultaneously. They can hit the peaks live, they can hit the peaks in recorded work, they can write at least some outstanding songs and most likely they are reasonably likable or at least tolerable in person. It's not easy to find someone to meet all those factors simultaneously, and perhaps you know a given person who surpasses them in one or more categories, but may, upon closer inspection, fall short in others.

As for using the word "great" too much, I think you guys are giving way too much power to that word. I looked up the definition, and the strongest word in the 11+ definitions that was used was "remarkable" which doesn't sound all that overwhelming. If someone is even in the top 10% of their field, that's remarkable. But the 11th listed definition I think sums up how most people view use of that word

Great: 11 -- used as a generalized term of approval <had a great time> <it was just great>

So, I wouldn't get too worked up over someone's description of general approval. You may define "great" differently, but from a real world use of it, general approval is acceptable use.

So perhaps Bob and you are correct. Perhaps these artists aren't really that outstanding, but perhaps the problem is that no one, under this type of microscope, really ever IS going to be consistently outstanding. Fame and superstar success covers up a lot of ills. The emperor sometimes really has no clothes, but fame doesn't allow the mass to acknowledge that. I see a lot of artists in a real world setting without many preconceived ideas of who they are or how good they should be (or how good others think they are already). It's one thing I learned early in our awards process (which has been a HUGE learning experience the last 7 years). Often if I know who artists are, I will be biased to rate them better than they are if they have tons of success or support behind them. That's why we don't really give screeners any background on the artists they are listening to. Each year as we're checking the rejected CD's one more time before permanently eliminating them (we give CD's as much possible chance as we can) we'll often see who these folks are and be amazed they were eliminated... but knowing the they failed in the process in advance, allows us to listen a bit more open mindedly to realize that sometimes the famous folks just aren't as good as the unknown. We're equally surprised to find that sometimes the famous folks really ARE better than the rest of the field (as happened with some relatively famous folks doing well last year).

I suspect for some folks (maybe even for Bob or you) there's a bit of a built in bristle about the contestants on these shows that would add deeper scrutiny of their talents than if these same folks were singing in a local bar. Or maybe there really are some amazing pockets of talent in the neighborhood around you guys that people just haven't yet discovered that would turn the industry on it's ear. I think perhaps my theory is more likely, but I am looking forward to seeing these superior talents in person if you guys can give me some of their names and locations.

Any human, placed under a scrutinizing microscope by skeptical people will always come up short in some respects. Politicians rarely please 2/3rds or more of the people with 1/3 or more generally thinking they're total idiots with no right to be in charge. Any given genre of music is hated by a large number of people, so artists in that genre will always been seen negatively. So it's reasonable to think that there are people who will automatically dislike anyone on a TV show contest regardless of their talent. Humans will always be exposed for being flawed if someone is looking close enough. I think that's what in the end makes people more interesting. I also think when people work to remove these noticeable flaws to the extreme, that we get the typical "Pop" star and so then folks criticize them for being too plastic and predicatable. Ironic.

Brian

I have no idea whether these young contestants are great or not. I've never seen the show. I've watched American Idol once and I remembered why I don't like talent shows, the competition becomes the entertainment.

Carrying the popularity of talent shows to it's logical extension, we'll never see another Bob Dylan. He would have lost out to Milli Vanilli.

There's nothing wrong with competition in art. There's no replacing competition in art, it's part of the deal. But when the competition itself becomes the entertainment, and is seen as a valid, perhaps the only, avenue to success, then the young artist is pressured to deliver what the judges want rather than what the artist feels.

Now, maybe I think this way because these shows don't entertain me personally. I have nothing against contests, they are a valid, important tool of development, but I'm not interested in watching the judging process. I don't look at art as sport. Certainly many people like to be entertained by watching people compete in mundane, if difficult, activities. (Who ever dreamed we'd watch a tv show where business men and women compete for a job? Or where people compete for a date? Or a mate?) But for me, when I want competition I watch football.

All the Best,
Mike


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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 08-18-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 08-18-2005).]

I grew up with talent shows..I competed in several..there's a difference.

Back then, winning a talent show meant you were the favorite of THAT audience on THAT evening.

Even big time shows like Arthur Godfreys Talent Scouts or Major Bowes never pronounced their winners as "stars" or "Idols".

This stuff today is all hype...all for ratings..period.
There's nothing genuine about the process...
That's all....
I think if folks would read what I say more carefully, they;'d be a little less upset with what I'm saying.

One of the major differences between a star and a talented amateur is consistency.
The true star goes out there night after night, show after and gives a good or great performance.
For me, that is essential in being a star.
Yes, some of these folks give wonderful performances on these shows..but..guess what...
In my time in the business I've given some brilliant friggin' performances.
But...not enough in a row while important eyes were watching to be a star.

So...I have viewed occasional episodes and snippets of episodes of these shows....
I don't think it would be proper to make critical comments if I hadn't actually seen the shows..
In my viewing of the shows I have yet to see any performer or indeed performance that tops what I used to see on a regular basis from pros in the music field I was involved in.
Period !
Didja get that, Brian?
That's what I said before..that's what I'm saying now....
And, by the way...
Not every talented person has aspirations of stardom.
Many, many talented people are content to be working pros..
My life has brought me into direct contact with many of those people.
The two greatest individual femaale singers I have EVER heard both made a conscious decision not to pursue a career in big time show business.
Both were young, exquisitely beautiful, and posessed with immeasurable musical abilities when they made that choice.
Either of these women could have blown ANY contestant I've ever seen on any of these shows off the stage and off the planet !
I should addd that both women had been courted by major show business concerns and offered the moon.
That's just two examples...I have others..and so do other people like me who have knocked around the commercial and corporate end of this business for a while.

So...go ahead...buy the hype.
We're Americans...good Americans buy the hype.
Feed the "star" machine...
It's big business and it helps this country run..

But...don't get mad at me for being unwilling to join you at the trough.

I'm busy getting sucked in by other scams, thank you.

Bob Young

One thing people should keep in mind is that this is a long drawn out audition. As many people have pointed out the band can control who wins this simply by not eliminating the person they want to keep. They may already have the winner chosen. Whatever you think of the format of the "competition" I think low ratings aside this will succeed in marketing the next version of INXS. The band is manipulating the current state of capitalism by doing what the public is interested in. As much as we artists refuse to admit sometimes we all have to be salesmen if we wish to reach a large audience. Self appointed purist will say it is cheesy and beneath "true" creative artistry. The fact is commercially successful musicians have to have a balance between business and art. Those who refuse will resent those who muse.

I think the talent on the show is outstanding. If you're trying to compare live performances of people who have a week to prepare a song that they wouldn't have chosen in other circumstances to a major label artist who has been touring for months doing the same songs 3 or 4 times a week before performing it flawlessly on Saturday Night Live then I think you can be critical. But if you remember that the idea is to challenge the person auditioning with difficult circumstances and see how well they hold up then you get an idea of what the band is after.

There is no guarantee the INXS world tour will succeed once the "dog and pony" show has ended. This will only pique curiosity for the upcoming record. That effort will have to stand on its own. It might be tough for the band and they need someone in front who can handle the pressure.

All arguments aside I am enjoying the show. It is more real than AI which I could only stomach a few times. The House band is phenomenal. Brooke and Dave don't really need to be there but the live performances week after week are inspiring enough to make me tune in.

I find nothing to disagree with in your last post Bob. But I also think you're not comparing 2 similar things.

If someone has amazing vocal and performance talent, but isn't able to deal with the pressures of pursuing major success, then that is what separates them. Perhaps there are untold numbers of better artists who aren't willing to do what they need to do to become famous. But it's not fair to say they're better at the fame game than someone actually in it. It's similar to saying the greatest basketball players are still on the playgrounds of NYC. Some people adamantly make those arguments. But in truth, it's a hollow argument. They may possess some physical skills that make them better, but they obviously don't possess the skill set that would allow them to go out and mix it up on the national basketball stage night after night in city after city. It takes a different skill set to do so, one that goes beyond just the physical/technical skills. And because those players don't actually compete night after night against the best out there, at best it's pure speculation that they are better than the pro's.

I think very few superstars could ever survive the brutal cattle call of these competitions. Obviously Dylan wouldn't have even gotten in the door. But just because you don't like the format of the competition doesn't mean that the artists involved are crap. Maybe the show format is... but I still think it takes a lot of performance balls to go out and put yourself under the microscope of people like you and me and anyone else watching night after night to be picked apart microscopicly. That's a talent and strentgh/ability that many folks don't have. And perhaps it's that additional particular strength/ability that got those folks on the show and at the top of the contestants.

As for the difference in talent shows, it's really the same thing. If folks in the venue voted on that particular night who was the best, they are doing the same thing now. People are watching on TV instead of in the audience and voting by phone instead of with a ballot (or whatever method might have been used in the past). I don't find either method to be more or less valid.

Any entertainers performing for money could be painted as monkeys dancing for the organ grinder if someone chose to do so. That's what playing for money is. It's no different for Wayne Newton to perform in Vegas or these kids on TV or Joe Smith playing for 50 bucks in a bar somewhere. I don't discredit them because they chose a larger venue to perform in.

I also don't think it is as difficult to perform the same material night after night well as it is to perform widely diverse material night after night. It's a different ability/skill. I bet if these performers were doing the same 50 songs catalog for a year they'd be 100% polished at every performance. I wonder how many veterans could whip out a new genre and song style every week on a couple days notice and be forced to do a style no matter how much they hated it and still be as consistently good as some of these peformers. It's a different skill set for sure.

As for Mike, it's an interesting concept, (i.e. the competition being the entertainment) but I am not sure how you could do it any different way. Just about everything in life is a competition of some type. Finding a mate. Finding a job. Doing your job better than the competition (no matter what field it is). Hell, even cutting your grass is a contest against nature if you look at it that way. I find nothing inherantly bad about people with a specific talent competing in that talent. Business does it every day. But most folks can't write a song, sing a song very well, record a song very well etc. So even though we're looking at the best of the people who can perform and meet certain criteria, ironically just being someone who peforms a song live (even Karaoke in this case) puts you in a small percentage of the public at large. The top 50% of the performers in the world are actually in the top 1% of the population in general at that skill. That's why people are so fascinated with these shows. And also why there's so much Monday morning quarterbacking out there, the same as people complaining about a coaches play call or a quarterbacks decision to throw or not throw the ball in a critical situation. It's stuff those folks could NEVER do. Not because they couldn't throw or make a decision, but they'd never be willing to do everything in life to get to the point where they'd be in that situation to get a chance to make that mistake. They may have the skill to make a good play call in 1 situation, and may have made the correct choice that the pro didn't.. but they'd never be able to do the work and make the sacrifice to do everything it took to become that coach. It's the same with these shows. Someone might have the singing talent or performance talent, but they obviously didn't have the skills or motivation it took to get on the show and even compete in the first place. And that's why I think the criticism is hollow.

But regardless of your position.. it makes for enjoyable water cooler discussion like this. And since that's among the goals of these shows, they obviously succeeded.

Brian

Hi all,

I've seen several topics relating to this show around the boards, and just want to make a comment or two if that's OK...

First, Mike Dunbar has probably put it the best way, in as far as how these shows become relatable to people. The competition becomes the entertainment, and I agree with Mike completely on that.

I don't like AI, because quite honestly, I don't feel that the contestants, regardless of their talent level, are seasoned enough, and I guess that's where the machine comes in, to groom them, to teach them how to become a performer, to mold the raw talent of the winning contestant...things that guys like Bob Young, Mike Dunbar, myself and countless others learned to do by playing thousands of gigs, in every environment possible, sometimes great, sometimes complete disasters, and a whole lot of in between, but continuing to do it anyway, because it's not about being a star for people like us. I will still stand by my belief that 9 out of 10 AI contestants would not put up with playing at coffeehouses, crappy bars, and actaully have to BUILD a following, not have TV provide it for them.

I have watched The Apprenctice (although if I have something more important that keeps me from a show, I don't tape it, Tivo it or worry that I missed it...about the only thing I get a little misty about is missing a Packers game if it's on the tube in my area).

Anyway, my thoughts on this show, Rock Star INXS, in particular are that it shows a total lack of respect to the memory of Michael Hutchcence. Same with the show that the two girls from TLC are doing. What would be so difficult with taking the route that The Who or AC/DC did, when they had Keith and Bon die??? Decide to continue privately, and audition or put out feelers through your network. They didn't turn it into a game show, because quite frankly, after Hutchence died, I didn't hear a peep from that band. But when someone comes along with something like this, and the mortgage is due...well...I just think that it could have been done privately, and with more class. Every one has a line they'll cross for money, whether it's breaking down and starting a cover band, or taking on a day job that they hate. This however, is actually a very disturbing way to "get the old band back together".

Just my 2 cents....

Davey O.

I used to be one of those people who had "made a conscious decision not to pursue a career in big time show business." I, too, had major label interest a couple years back. But I was skeptical and blew off the offers. I tell you what...I'm sure these female singers that Bob spoke of will be kicking themselves later on. I know I am. But now that I'm 25 and I've wised up about things, I fear that opportunity has knocked for the last time. I doubt I'll get that chance again.

Now that I am getting older in the eyes of show-business, I can EASILY understand why someone would want to sign on for one of these 3-ring circus TV reality shows. Have you seen the ages of the contestants? They are getting "up there" in age compared to other new artists right now. I'm sure they, too, feel as though this might be opportunity's last knock on their door. I would never belittle their talent simply because I hate the idea of the talent reality show (which I honestly really do). A few of these singers are really very good. Better than most of the crap on the radio. And what is a "star" anyway? 75% of the so-called stars today don't have an ounce of charisma. I have much more appreciation for a true "performer," which I feel some of the Rock Star contestants are.

These are professionals battling it out for the title, not amateurs. They have had careers in music on once level or another. I used to be very critical of the contestants on these kinds of shows, but as I perform more and am more in the public eye, I really can't help but respect anyone who has at least some talent and sets themselves up for this kind of scrutiny. It seems almost bitter to insult these people's talent simply because of the avenue they have chosen to display it.

But then again, what do I know?

Gena

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Brian..

It seems that part of the reason you don't understand what I'm saying is that you don't truly understand the nature of my business.
Your remark about it being easier to do the same thing every night proves that.
In convention and corporate and society work you are working generally "theme' parties.

It might be a country western motif on wednesday in Minneapolis, then New York society with tux on Friday in Sheboygan Wisconsin and a reception for Mitsubishi Motorcycle division on Sunday in Chicago doing songs from the Ninja Turtle movie.

Sometimes you get an hour to rehearse the show..sometimes you walk in and the music is on the stands and you've got 30 minutes to dress and be somebody.

You imply , incorrectly, that deciding NOT to pursue a career in big time show business means that you don't have the goods.

In this you could not be more wrong.

Wrong ! wrong ! wrong!

It's a choice...you choose not to enter the race..not because you think you can't win, but because you view the prize as being unworthy of the effort.
Kind of like trying to debate with you.

So...until you can achieve a frame of reference for what I'm trying to say..

I will sign off

Bob Young

Gena..

That's a great post and all good luck to you...

As to those ladies kicking themselves for their decision...

One of them lives in Tennessee with her childhood sweetheart.
She dropped out of the game when his vision began to deteriorate..he said that if he went blind he hoped that the last thing he saw would be her...
She decided to guarantee that would be the case..
She now co manages a used car lot and puts the most beautiful female body God ever made into Church satins on Saturdays and Sundays and leads the sweetest childs choir in Tennessee.
Johns vision is maybe 10 percent of normal but thank God he can still see Carol.
She's now in her mid 40s, sings better than ever and is still a size 2.
I talked to her a couple of months ago and she assures me she's never been happier.
She walked away 15 years ago...no regrets.
As for Pam, my other diva..she still gigs in Chicago..she's married for the second time has 3 great kids and is getting fat as a Buick !
I've known her for almost 30 years...I can tell you she is as satisfied with her life as one could ever want to be.

And, Brian.

Another thing you don't appear to understand is that talent shows were not 10 singers in a row.
It might be an Italian baritone followed by 2 six year old girls doing a baton routine into a 50 year old matron sing light opera followed by some Greek guy playing a musical saw into God knows what.

The audience picked their FAVORITE..not necessarily the best or most talented..just their favorite for that evening.

So....Merry Christmas to all of you...
And good luck to all those groovy kids on all the shows

And, Peace to you, Brian..

You're a good kid !

Bob Young

I'm trying to read what Bob says a little more carefully

“I think if folks would read what I say more carefully, they;'d be a little less upset with what I'm saying.”

OK

“This is bowling alley karaoke with a live band and bright lights.
These people are all karaoke talents..”

Disagree

“Would you really buy their cds or pay to see them in concert?”

Yes

“This stuff today is all hype...all for ratings..period.”

agree

”There's nothing genuine about the process...
That's all....”

Disagree

“So...I have viewed occasional episodes and snippets of episodes of these shows....
I don't think it would be proper to make critical comments if I hadn't actually seen the shows..
In my viewing of the shows I have yet to see any performer or indeed performance that tops what I used to see on a regular basis from pros in the music field I was involved in.
Period !”

Maybe you haven’t seen Mig’s Peter Frampton, Marty’s solo acoustic, Ty’s Bob Marley Or Jordas’s Nirvana

“But...don't get mad at me for being unwilling to join you at the trough.
I'm busy getting sucked in by other scams, thank you.”

I think you’ve been sucked in by this thread

“It seems that part of the reason you don't understand what I'm saying is that you don't truly understand the nature of my business.
Your remark about it being easier to do the same thing every night proves that.
In convention and corporate and society work you are working generally "theme' parties.
It might be a country western motif on wednesday in Minneapolis, then New York society with tux on Friday in Sheboygan Wisconsin and a reception for Mitsubishi Motorcycle division on Sunday in Chicago doing songs from the Ninja Turtle movie.
Sometimes you get an hour to rehearse the show..sometimes you walk in and the music is on the stands and you've got 30 minutes to dress and be somebody.”

Is the true standard of acceptable musicianship = anything that’s better than Bob Young’s crew of professionals?

“You imply , incorrectly, that deciding NOT to pursue a career in big time show business means that you don't have the goods.
In this you could not be more wrong.
Wrong ! wrong ! wrong!”

I think Brian was saying there is more to success than singing.

“Those of you that are enjoying the show..God Bless you.
And to any of you planning to enter the competition for this or any of the other 'REALITY" shows, I say"Good luck and may the force be with you."

Why rain on our parade?

“I'm not going to continue on this point..I know how much my friend Brian hates dissenting opinion.”

You didn’t stop

“So...until you can achieve a frame of reference for what I'm trying to say..
I will sign off”

You didn’t stop

Mike


[This message has been edited by Michael Meal (edited 08-18-2005).]

Bob, understood. And I have to tell you, I have absolute respect for people who choose family over fame. I find myself struggling with that same thing, and I know that if fame meant that my family stability would be jeopardized, I couldn't bring myself to get into that situation. I guess I don't really understand the "I-want-to-be-famous" mentality. My mindset is more "I want to do what I enjoy doing and receive adequate recognition for it." Is that the same thing?

I'm even leaning more towards simply starting my own family and being happy in that, and I've put my music on the backburner to some degree for that reason. In doing that, there does indeed come a certain amount of regret. Albeit small, I'm sure, for these women, as they seem content with a happy home life. But there is always that wonder of what could have been. So that's more what I was trying to say.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with Rock Star: INXS. I apologize. And I'm certainly not aiming to upset you, Bob, so I hope I haven't done that.

Gena

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Are you ready...?
www.soundclick.com/genalewis
genalewis@juno.com

Micheal..I thought I made it clear that I was not only talking about the people that worked with me, but professional entertainers from all over the country.
Sorry you didn't get that..
As to the rest..

Hey...nobody's perfect.

Bob Young

QUOTE:
"Maybe you haven’t seen Mig’s Peter Frampton, Marty’s solo acoustic, Ty’s Bob Marley Or Jordas’s Nirvana."

I don't know if Bob has seen these Mike. But I have and none of 'em were particularly memorable or good.

First off Mig just doesn't have much of a voice at all. It's a shame. He seems a nice lad and I wish he was up to it. But he's clearly not.

Ty obviously has the best instrument of all the guys but he suffers from a few very common flaws. In fact he has so many negative idiomatic idiosyncracies as a singer it's hard to know where to start.
The Broadway overtones aside he carries the dreaded "boyband inflection" in just about everything he sings. Listen to a few of his performances and you'll hear it usually at the end of a line. It's not always present but it's consistent enough to seriously detract from anything he might have going for him. On top of that Ty slips perfectly into the category known as 'Blacks Without Soul" (I don't know if any of you people have ever seen "Amazon Women On The Moon". It's a hilarious movie made up of a bunch of skits. One of the skits is done like an infommercial for 'Blacks Without Soul' a record featuring a guy doing cheesy versions of classic songs.) Ty reminds me of this movie everytime I see him. He's all cheese and no heart. In a movie it's very funny. In 'real' life it's just cringe inducing.

I presume Jordis' "Nirvana song" is a reference to David Bowie's "The Man Who Sold The World". Well let me just say I've slapped people for less than her mangling of this tune. An abomination. Sometimes less is more. Sometimes more is more. Knowing when and where to apply each of these principles is key to being a great performer. Jordis sang that song like 4-non-blondes because it's the only mode she has. She doesn't have the intellect, heart or artistry to recognize that a song like that doesn't need histrionics. And even if she did have the above I doubt she'd have the sensitivity to be able to execute it. Even Lulu's awful '70's disco version was better.
All the above said, Jordis has the best instrument of all the females. Will she ever be able to use it? I don't know.

Which leaves Marty. The nearly man. Nearly got the voice. Nearly got the look. Nearly got it going on. It's quite the tragedy.

In my estimation JD is the best choice of a bad bunch. He may be a dick but he's the only one with any sense of individuality or any remotely noteworthy creative inclinations. He's also got a voice that is nearly interesting which in this competition puts him in a category all alone. If they don't pick him it'll be because he <b>is</b> a dick.

QUOTE:
"Perhaps these artists aren't really that outstanding, but perhaps the problem is that no one, under this type of microscope, really ever IS going to be consistently outstanding."

Brian. On this we can agree. But that brings up another point. I think real honest to goodness great talents wouldn't put themselves through this sort of horse and pony show. I know I wouldn't! The sort of person that embodies "Great Talent" is not someone I would expect to be of that sort of mindset.


QUOTE:
"Perhaps this IS a case that no actual human lives up to the talent expectations of some people. It's certainly possible that both you and I and Bob are all 100% correct simultaneously. What that would require is that the best talent out there just doesn't live up to what you or Bob would consider good enough."

There are lots of people in this world who live up to my standards talent-wise Brian.
Personally speaking, I look for heart first in everything. It's the most important thing. Without it, nothing else matters. But on its own it's not close to being enough. Look at William Hung. He's got lots of heart and nothing else! But if any of the competitors left in this show had half the heart he displays they'd be walking away with the competition.
I'm actually pretty easy to please in the talent department. When people ask me who I think is the greatest singer ever I always say "Ringo Starr". Of course I'm joking, but only to a certain degree. The simple, honest, humble way he delivers songs is, to me, the heart and soul of what music is all about. He's just himself. No bells. No whistles. Lots of humor. Slightly flat but charmingly so. And no attempt to cover the imperfections. As a human being it's engaging. You see, I don't want to be impressed. I want to be moved. In the age of Celines and Mariahs and all that reprehensible nonsense people seem to confuse the two.

Translate it to piano. My favorite Jazz musician is Monk. Was he the best technical player? Hell no! Very often he was the least technically gifted in whatever combo he was in. But the musicians he played with spoke of him with awe. They knew enough to know that though they had superior chops he had something indefinable that made him truly great with a capital G.

I suppose the bottom line here is Hutchence was not a jack-of-all-trades song and dance man. He was just himself and very good at it. It sounds like simplicity itself but it's not. It's rare. The type of person who embodies this sort of ability is not likely to whore themselves on a show like this. In short, INXS are looking in the wrong place.

Oh..and Michael..

You're right..I did come back..

Mainly,I picked uyp the thread again because Geena addressed particular issues in a clear and concise manner and I thought they were worthy of response.
The return to Brian was typical of the exchanges we've had over this and other issues thru the years.Brians position on this is very clear to me and it's apparent that my position is clear to him.
Your arriving late with a rehash of his opinion is just silly...
I get what Brian is saying...
He doesn't need you to restate his opinion and I certainly don't need you to explain it to me..

Maybe it's time for YOU to go away..

Have a lovely day

Bob Young

Nice to see that David and I aren't the only ones who find William Hungs performance charming and engaging...
Truly, for me, the most menorable performance so far.

Right on, Mr Hung !

Keep shaking your Bon Bon !

[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 08-18-2005).]

I say that the MOST impressive part of Mig's "Baby I Love Your Way" that sounded 'better than Peter Frampton ever did it' was...

how he transposed it from the original key of G, down a whole step to F, so that his thin high range (don't get me wrong, he's got a GREAT falsetto, but he's a high head-voice/falsetto guy, without a high throat timbre) wasn't exposed to the world. Gee, he can plod block chords on piano while he sings! He's a bloody Elton, he is!

Kinda reminded me of how JD transposed "We Are The Champions" down from the original F, to Eb, so that he similarly didn't expose his lack of a credible high range, with the sad side effect of putting the opening lines so low that he had to growl them because they dropped below the bottom of his range.

Man, what an artist! What a radical reinterpretation! Your contract awaits you!

None of which reminded me of how Daphna(?), doing "Rock The Casbah", had to have it transposed up a fourth, then still sang the verses from the wrong starting pitch (the melody starts on the tonic; she started it, and remained on the fifth, until the choruses, which she yelled to the correct tune).

There are SO-o-o-o many others that could be similarly analyzed...

Free clips of these performances can be heard, if you feel moved to refute my remarks, at RockstarINXS , where the full songs are also on sale(!).

Who was "not right for [our] band, INXS" last night?

I have enjoyed following this thread and also felt this particular section of mani's recent comment was worth a highlight because I really agree with it so much! Give me ringo over Celine any day. The heart and simplistic originality are so refreshing compared to the slick overproduction so common in Celine, Mariah, Michael Bolton, Boy Band genres.

Thanks for expressing that thought so concisely mani.

And yes, I thought Well Hung rocked!

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JavaMusiK
<IMG SRC=\"http://javamusik.com/javamusik.jpg\">

Ed, I'm going to agree with what you've said about the transposition of some of the songs the contestants on the show have had to do. Oh, that just bugs the crap out of me. Sing it the way it was initially written and performed!!! And it seems to me that when a song has been transposed, the singer sometimes forgets it's been transposed and sings it in the original key while the band plays in the new key. Or they will shift back and forth between the 2 keys (which is what I remember Daphna doing, if I'm not mistaken). Not just on this show, but I've heard this a LOT elsewhere as well.

Part of being a singer, ESPECIALLY a rock singer, is having that range and vocal versatility. Reach for those notes, dammit!!! Train your voice to hit them. It's not supposed to sound all soft and sweet and pretty like adult contemporary or something. If you have to growl and push it out, do it, because sometimes it's meant to sound a little rough. That's what makes it rock.

So you are right on about the key transpositions. That stuff has got to go, as far as I'm concerned.

Gena

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The new sound in soul music. Are you ready...?
www.soundclick.com/genalewis
genalewis@juno.com

Ed and Geena..

I'm gonna play devils advocate here and say, yes the transposing into a more"comfortable" range might be an iffy choice...
But...
I don't know enough about the production end of the show to know who's making that decision.
Is it the singer?..or is it some music producer trying to be "groovy"

Hard to know who to blame for a poor decision..

Bob Young

I'm just going to ask a question emulating out of this one if you don't mind guys.
What is so special about being able to figure out what key any vox can do something in and transposing the song backing to suit?
Any song ever written can be transposed to any where I would think.
Graham


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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

All this talk about transposing songs being a copout is nonsense. Different singers just have different ranges. It's a fact of life. Iggy Pop wouldn't be able to sing Zep's 'Rock and Roll' in its original key.
Likewise Robert Plant wouldn't be able to sing Iggy's 'Sister Midnight' in its original key. Yet both are remarkable rock singers with great ranges.

I like it when people sing at the edge of their top range. It's exciting and it's fun. But sometimes a tune is just too high or too low. As regards JD transposing 'We Are The Champions', few would dispute Freddy Mercury as being one of the greatest rock vocalists ever yet he "cheated" live all the time. Freddy took vocal routes (ie. took an easier harmony note) a whole lot when he sang live leaving the top notes and higher harmonies to Roger Taylor (drummer) who has a ridiculously high super tenor voice. So obviously JD ain't the only one who finds Queen songs difficult!! Sheesh, I can't believe I'm defending the hacks on this show!

Well...nonsense....?..not necessarily..

I think what we're talking about is transposing the excitement out of the piece...
There's more to good rock and roll singing than just singing the highest notes possible to get the "edgy" feel..
Finding just the right key for a particular performers version of a particular song is of deadly importance ( in my opinion)
Especially in rock and roll where instrument voicings can mean so much to the texture underneath the vocal.

Just my opinion...

Bob Young

Cobber....

Sure..I agree..the act of just transposing is nothing..but getting JUST the right key and then arranging the instruments to be effective in that key...well...yeah...that is a big deal.

Bob

Totally agree Bob.
hear it all the time where the stretch is too far for the vox.
I would think that would be the musical director making the decision on what key any singer sung any song in on a show like this one.
Graham

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http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhenderson_music.htm

well ive been reading this post a lot.i have never watched the show,dont care to start.i agree more with Bob.there are a lot of gifted musicians that dont have or want a recording contract.yes it would be nice in some cases for the money it brings but not the fame and glory. i dont need my ego stoked.it takes a lot of ambition,drive and determination to succeed in any endeavor, some people just dont have that' it doesnt mean they dont have the talent,just not the drive. right here in my neck of the woods there are many great guitar players,great drummers me being one of those lol i think i could play the drums for anybody but that doesnt mean i want to.and another thing why would you not want to transpose a damn song into the key that fits your voice geeez why do yall want to sound like somebody else am i missing something here?
shes now 25? gawd really over the hill lol ive got socks older than that

Were you talking about me being 25? For what I am trying to do, you and I both know 25 is "aged" in the Hollywood eye. Record companies usually seem to be aiming for that 16-21 range.

Look...I just turned 25 on August 6th, so the wound is still fresh. Let's not discuss age anymore. I'm starting to get a little sensitive about my age, and I'm getting teary-eyed right now. Haha...just kidding.

Gena

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The new sound in soul music. Are you ready...?
www.soundclick.com/genalewis
genalewis@juno.com

Gena...

Don't feel bad about turning 25. I 'm gonna be 42 in September, and I'm still playing live dates, I tour regionally, I've released 4 CD's independently. I'm not looking to be a star. I'd be happy with a distribution deal or a deal with an indie that can help get things spread out a bit further, and put me on tour in small rooms to support any releases with them. Because of the style of music I write, which is along the lines of Alt Country/Americana/Folk, I don't think it's an unrealistic goal.

Keep plugging away!!!!

Davey O.
hear clips from "thirtyninedollarview" at
www.cdbaby.com/daveyo4

Good for you , Davey...krrp goin' !

And Geena...I got shirts that arer 25...
You got a ways to go..don'y get sucked in by that agism crap...

Bob (not so) Young

My original picks were Mig and Suzie, loved Jordis too, and in recent weeks Marty has done an about-face.
If I were choosing the lead singer for the band, however, I would pick Mig.
He is the whole package, he is a good singer, a musician, has a great personality, seems truly genuine, and someone that the audience will get behind.
INXS, are not a bunch of hot headed 20 somethings. Having a well balanced extremely likeable younger good looking front man for the band will do wonders for thier image.
It may even bring them back from the brink of obscurity.

Its merely a situation where you have to have some objectivity, step back a bit and take a look at the whole picture. It looks a hell of a lot different than the little box of controversy, of he said she said, I'm gonna one up you dog.... and take that you meanie!!!.....

Afterall it is a tv show and we are talking about rock stars, for poops sake!!! It ain't rocket science......


Peace All, Liz

Hi Liz,

I think you are right. But, it's the "little box of controversy" that keeps shows like these in business. It's that people can get worked up over the fact that someone doesn't like their favorite singer and does like their least favorite. It becomes personal.

We all want to be right, but the myth of shows like this is that one singer is "right" and another is "wrong." Look at how many people like William Hung. He and Kelly Clarkson are the only two contestants of any of these shows that I can name (admittedly, I don't watch them), where are all those other "Idols" and "Stars?" I can also, however, name Simon Cowell, Paula Abdul, and Randy Jackson. hmmm. Who's the star?

Music experts can make arguments for and against artists, but they can't predict who the public will buy. I remember in college, we had music professors who thought rock and roll wasn't really music, but attempts by children to make something that was like music. When I said I liked country and bluegrass music, I was told that they weren't "legitimate" forms of music. When William Hung was told by that panel of stars that he had no talent, he proved them wrong. He has the talent of striking empathy in listeners. He's the everyman whose passion is made more bright by his honest, flawed delivery. He's Bob Dylan, Ralph Stanley, Louis Armstrong, and Rod Stewart to the nth degree.

Then, after the panel of experts is through (at least on American Idol, the only one of these shows that I've seen) the viewing audience gets to pick among the contestants who are left. It becomes a betting window at a race track. Or worse, a beauty contest. I've got an idea for a show. I'll sing all of my songs, then we'll get a panel to pick the ones they like and trash the ones they don't. Then we'll have the audience vote among those left for the song of mine that will be a hit. Any tv show investors out there?

When judging songs for the JPF contests, we are instructed by Brian to simply vote for the songs that touch us. That's the only criteria that counts. It's the closest facsimile of the "real world" out of any contest I've encountered. I've got credentials and skills that would let me dismiss contestants based on provable musical weaknesses. But, I'm moved by Louis Armstrong's voice more than Barry Manilow's. Additionally, I judge those JPF songs in the privacy of my own home. I would imagine if I were judging songs up for a prize publicly, that my notoriety would color my opinions. "Gee," I might think, "If I say clever stuff about these singers, maybe people will think I'm some kind of expert or 'kingmaker' and my production company will flourish."

Nope, not for me. Give me Brian's sytem any day.

Mike

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 08-21-2005).]

All good points Mike,
But when you do look at a show like the INXS show, it's about (or should be about) INXS, and to stay on point would be a good idea.
And yes there are right or wrong, or better and not so go, choices for the band to make, based n what they have to work with. Yes it is a big dog and pony show, it's fun to watch, and interesting to read all of the opinion.
But in the end the band should or should wisely choose the right person for the job, afterall, all TV aside these folks are applying for a job.

And I know all about art snobbery, read a Mark Strand vs. William Carlos Williams poem, a Rap lyric, and an Irish Dirge' you are sure to get a difference of opinion, some will say that it is all rubbish, some will pick and choose like a contest, and others will take what they can trulyuse, without a need to judge.

But when judging does come into play, it is best to use the knowledge you have, paired with personal taste and sensibility. If that means go with what moves you, then do it. There is no shame in being genuine, even though we are often taught otherwise.
Personally I listen to everything from heavy metal to bluegrass to opera, and love it all and everything in-between.
I can also appreciate the work of John Singer Seargent, Howard Hodgkins and Miro' and never feel torn in any way.

I can scrap with the best of them if need be, but have learned over the years that I will live longer and walk with a lighter step if I choose instead to conjur up a little peace, and let the turmoil fall away.

Carry On Ya'll....!! Liz

Liz,

Maybe the INXS show, which I've never seen, is or should be all about INXS, making it more like a reality show, more like Blow Dry or whatever that show is called where you watch the way a guy runs his hair salon business. Most of these contests, however, are all about the contest, not the winner. I mean they give the winner a bouquet of roses and a record contract that most attorneys would recommend against signing, and the losers all cry and hug them, but it's really about the judges and how some are cruel and some are tactful, but all are telling these kids the same stuff we'd like to tell tham at a Karaoke bar.

That's what made me think, "What's in this for Dunbar?" so I came up with the idea of using some of their techniques to drive people to my CDBaby site. So, if you'll look at the thread, "New Contest: Dunbar's Hit" you'll see how I've adapted this to my benefit.

All the Best,
Mike

p.s. Please vote and tell me what you think.

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You have to practice improvisation. -Art Tatum

Mike Dunbar Music

[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 08-22-2005).]

Well, on the INXS show the guys in the band have the final vote.
Yes the viewer at home gets to vote , making it an interactive kind of thingy.
Like a contest.
I guess that out of the three bottom vote getters, at least one of them has to be voted off, but once the guys in the band sent two of them packing.
I figure they have probably already made up their mind as to who they want in the band. I know I have made up my mind about it, but I'm still going to watch. It's fun, not a cop or hospital or lawyer show...
And it gets me away from my work for an hour on Tuesday evening.
I am a PBS watcher myself and am really looking forward to the Bob Dylan Documentary this fall.
Maybe after the INXS show is over and all is said and done, Charlie Rose will have the whole gang on his show .
and they can discuss world affairs, and the state of the music biz....

Liz