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Hi folks- Can anyone explain the purpose of a songwriting collaboration agreement? Is it really necessary, and how does it protect both parties? I have found a good lyricist here on JPF's- I have written the music to a couple of his lyrics. Should the contract be signed by both parties, (and notarized) before the music is presented to the lyricist? In this scenario, the lyrics were posted on JPF's, and made public. I am always try to do things in a legal manner, to protect my works when writing lyrics, and writing and recording my music. I really do not wish to let go of my music, to anyone, untill it is copyrighted, and we do have the signed agreements. Any professional advice? Cal
[This message has been edited by Cal (edited 03-27-2005).]
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cal: [B]Hi folks- [Can anyone explain the purpose of a songwriting collaboration agreement]? I'll give it go: To establish the ground rules for writers who will be pursuing the business ends of writing. [Is it really necessary]? Yes, if above is relative. [And how does it protect both parties]? The terms would be in writing, with no chance of misunderstanding each collaborator. [Should the contract be signed by both parties, (and notarized) before the music is presented to the lyricist]? The notarized contract could be signed at the decission to want to work with each other for a common goal of business purposes. [In this scenario, the lyrics were posted on JPF's, and made public]. That's different. That is for learning writing skills, or for reasurance of skills, or just for the kicks of it all. [I am always try to do things in a legal manner, to protect my works when writing lyrics, and writing and recording my music. I really do not wish to let go of my music, to anyone, untill it is copyrighted, and we do have the signed agreements]. Your lyrics or music is automatically copyrighted as you are writing it. Registration of your copyrights is the legal method necessary to be able to collect any, or more money if you win a court case. [Any professional advice]? I am not a music lawyer. Always seek out one before singing anything. This site is manily a learning writing skills site, with networking along with it. I think if an exclusive collaboration for business reasons is found here, the boards might not be the place to conduct those collaborations anymore. I would do them in private at that point. It seems we all post lyrics and music as a service to self for learning, and sometimes for others to learn from. If down the road the edited version of your song gets going in business, then a thank you in some way would be appreciated by the ones that helped along the way. But that's up to each writer. But to sign a contract with anyone that works on songs with you on the boards might not be the way to go. With one or two, as I said "in private" as an exclusive collaboration, then yes. Hope this all helped in some way. Best wishes, John Daubert [This message has been edited by dhsongs (edited 03-27-2005).]
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Hi John- Thanks fo the visit. I always get copyrights on my songs before I show them to anyone in the music business. I feel a lot more secure with my hard work that way. It's just plain smart business. I don't mind letting friends listen- who are not in the business- my folks, or my dog, to get their take before it's registered. I mentioned finding the lyrics on the board here, just to make a distinction; where I found them. I'm not speaking of a lyric board critique, as a collaboration; that is another topic. Mike's lyric when I got into the picture, were finished, and also were copyrighted. We were doing a collab in private at that point. But??? Even if both parties works are registered (have copyrights) and both people had sole ownership of their work- I'd like to know what exactly does the collaborating agreement do to protect us? And from what? How strong is it? How does it work? Example: Both writer's works have copyrights. The musician views the lyric, and wishes to write the music. Both sign the agreement before the music is written. Or vice-versa.
One party says, after the song is completed listens to it, (or reads the lyric) and says: I've decided this is not for me, I think I'll pass. I've decided to try another lyricist; or in Mike's case another composer. How does the co-writing agreement help either or; if one collaborates with other's, outside of that contract, (after the work is completed, and not accepted) and parts of the copyrighted work is used by someone else?
I would think the partnership would have the completed work registered by both writer's in the agreement, as soon as the work was accepted by both. Copyrighting it, on one registration form, maybe splitting the cost, and each getting a copy of the copyright certificate. I think there are many variables to contend with, such as: how when and to who the material will be pitched to? Demo's etc.. Isn't a copyright on a lyric, or piece of music good enough; before a collab if no collab agreement is signed? Any help out there? I looked in my THIS BUSINESS OF MUSIC book by Shemel, and Krasilovsky, and couldn't find any info on this subject.
Cal
[This message has been edited by Cal (edited 03-28-2005).]
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Cal, for all your concerns, I would just make an appointment with a music lawyer and get it all answered and taken care of so you guys can focus on music from that time on.
Best wishes, John
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John- You are absolutely correct! A good entertainment attorney, who knows his stuff is the only way to be sure. I'm not that concerned about it- just wondered if any JPF's folks were familiar with this topic. I have checked out a few different firms in Nashville- Most of them did not return my calls. The one who did (a very professional woman attorney)told me her firm was so busy with the major artists, they have to have a $1000.00 retainer. I believe the rates were reasonable about $200.00 per hour. Not many around here, in metro Detroit, who are not on drugs, or big headed, or actually know their business.
Thanks again
Cal
[This message has been edited by Cal (edited 03-28-2005).]
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Cal,
Just to give some history of my long term collaboration:
Buddy and I have been cowriting since '78, and have a solid unconditional agreement by word alone, that whatever any of us does, it's 50/50. That includes every possible senario in the music business, including film scoring. We even agreed to include one of us winning the state lottery!
No matter who writes or plays what, we are one with the song.
I guess that's different though to what you are talking about.
You could give Larry Brey a call, (NY City), or he's probably online if you do a search. He helped us out on some matters, as did a Canadian attorney refered from this site a few years back to help with some Canadian issues of licenses. I would make the questions concise. Write them down in an order that would make the best sense, and with the least amount of words.
And maybe think about the 50/50 deal with any collaborator. Saves a lot of finger counting, and sometimes, pointing!
Remember too, that most likely, like with all of us, the odds are slim that big deals will happen. Stealing these days isn't what it used to be either, (ahh, the good old days)! In fact, if something of yours is taken and used to make big money, your registered copyright in court should do it, as long as you can also prove they had a listen or read to your works. Then you not only will win the case and damages, you will then be known as the real hit songwriter behind that stolen song! You'll need two lawyers, one to look after the other!
Just for kicks! Really though, maybe email or call Larry or someone in NY. Nashville has gotten pretty Sony about everything. NY still has some street thugs with suits on that won't mind giving a few words of their knowledge.
John
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Hi Cal, Your question has been pretty well answered, I think so I'll just make a few other comments. I'd venture to say that it's a very small % of collaborations have a written agreement. This doesn't pertain much to collaborations but more to copyrighting. In the first place outright stealing a song is quite rare, tho' granted , it does happen. Right on , your song is copyrighted as soon as you get it into song form. You can register your copyrigbt, but if you think that's an ironclad guarantee, think again. For one thing, if you've got a really good, unique hook-title, that's not protected at all and that's the most valuable thing. Plus, they can take more of your song than you might think and get by with it and if they're in the business of stealing, they have a very good idea as to just how much they can take. As one of the guys mentioned, one of the main points is that you've got to show they had "access" to it ,which is a main reason why hardly any of the bigger labels, etc. will take "unsolicited", to keep away from nusiance(sp) law suits. Early on in my writing, I thought I had a song stolen and my publisher referred me to someone he considered would give good advice and he said, well, you might have a case and you could sue them but the chances are you're going to lose. I decided it wasn't worth it and on reflection decided it probably wasn't stolen anyway. Just two people with the same idea at the same time. If you sue, make sure you've got a good lawyer, cause they'll have one if they're in the business and chances are you'll lose. Registering a copyright is the best protection we have, but ironclad, it ain't. Nickels worth Wy
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John, thanks for the tip. You are very fortunate having that relationship. I'll look into the attorney you suggested.
Wyman- Well stated; I agree. Particularly with your comment regarding the title/hook. I don't want to sound like my writings are that great, or that anyone is out there ready to grab my idea's- but, a patent attorney long ago told me to: "Police your material. Keep records of who, when and where you pitch it to. If someone is not interested in using it, get it back." I do come up with a few very original, and unique idea's/themes, twists titles/hooks. Also, blends of musical grooves that are unique. I know the odds are slim of someone (I don't like to use the word stealing) using or altering ones idea; but one has to be careful, of being to free with a creation that may have HIT potential, written all over it.
Thanks the both of you
Cal
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I've been off Boards for a while, but now that I'm back for the time being, this seemed a good place to start... First, last I knew the laws, anything fewer than seven sequential notes (tone and duration exact) cannot be copyrighted anyway, nor can fewer than seven consecutive words. As I recall, NBC had trouble with this, because their theme is only three notes (a 5th below root, a third above, then the root). It was too short to copyright, so they trademarked it, instead (different scenario). I only bring this up because it muddies the lines of what is considered "stealing". If I take a seven-word hook line, add an 's' to one word and change one note (tone or timing), I can copyright for myself "essentially" the same thing you wrote without technically breaking any laws. It's ethically and professionally frowned upon, but not legally. As for collaboration agreements, they protect the individual contributors, but are usually used by people who do not know (i.e, have reason to trust) each other well or for a long period of time, or who have limited exposure to each other as collaborators. They are more to set out clearly what the expectations are BEFORE writing together. Usually, they contain the following: 1. Who is allowed / expected to contribute to what (lyrics or melody). For some, they do not want a collaborator to offer suggestions on the lyrics -- only to write a melody for the existing lyrics. Any lyric suggestions are agreed upon up front to be at the discretion of the lyric writer (for instance). Others may say, "I have a melody which I do not want altered in any way, so you may write lyrics as long as they do not alter the melody structure that already exists." Others may say that both (or more) parties may contribute freely to either from scratch. Many times, this part will say (in essence), "If you suggest lyrics (or melody changes), you agree that I must approve them, and that I will own the changes if I accept them should we part ways without copyrighting the song as a whole unit." 2. How the copyright will be split IF (the "if" is defined clearly! see below) they both agree to go forward and copyright the song as a cohesive whole unit. Generally, this is done "even Steven" between professional collaborators, out of respect and hopes of working together in the future. Therefore, if there are three of us and I only contribute the bridge lyrics, we still split 33/33/33. Obviously, if collaborators seem to feel that one partner is not valuable or not contributing "enough", they would just not collaborate in the future. But consider: if someone writes the "magic hook" and no more, while the other writes everything else, that hook may be what sells the song overall, more so than the whole rest of the lyric. 3. Contingent clauses ("ifs"). This usually includes what happens if the pair do not decide to move forward with the project after a specified amount of time, who would have rights to what parts of the song, etc. This is much better agreed upon up front, because then you don't burn bridges every time a song doesn't move forward. It's just a set agreement of what will happen, and things remain amiable. Usually, the primary lyric writer will keep the copyrights to the lyric and the primary melody writer will keep the copyrights to the melody. If one person came to the table with the hook lyric and melody, they would say up front in the agreement that they will walk away with it should things not move forward for any reason, and that the other person (people) will have no rights to use any part of that hook line/melody. If both contributed substantially to lyrics or melody, what would happen would be agreed upon beforehand in the "ifs" section. Just FYI, chord charts or progressions do not qualify as "melody writing", and cannot be copyrighted. However, many people do agree that the arranger (chord charter) is a vital enough part of the song structure in interpreting the melody that an arranger is written in as a full collaborator with shared rights to the song. This is good to be clear on, in writing, beforehand -- another purpose to the collaborators' agreement. In the situation, let's say, that two people agree to collaborate -- one mainly for lyrics and the other as composer (melody writer) -- the collaborators' agreement would be important, because it would draw the line of what would happen if the two just can't agree in the end. "I just love my melody, but I think your lyrics are too weak for such an awesome melody." Or, "My words are moving and you just aren't capturing what I hear for the stirring rendition in my head." In the end, the agreement usually says that the two part ways with their own material, and that the other cannot USE that material in any fashion without express license from the owner. Hope this helps some. Erik / Baz www.eriktyler.com www.soundclick.com/eriktyler ------------------ "The only way to get anywhere is to cross a few lines." [This message has been edited by TheBaz (edited 03-29-2005).]
"The only way to get anywhere is to cross a few lines."
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Hi Erik- Glad to see you around. Thanks for the advice. You made some very good points. I like the comments of signing the agreement "before" the collaboration is started. Also, regarding the author of the "hook" getting a third, if the hook sells the song. Something writers should think about. I've often been told, that an idea may be the reason the song becomes a hit. I do not believe "ideas" created for a song can be copyrighted.
Cal
[This message has been edited by Cal (edited 03-28-2005).]
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