JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum What is prosody?

I've looked it up in the dictionary, but I've heard several different explanations of what it means, none of which exactly match my dictionary definition.

Can someone tell me what prosody means, as the term is used in songwriting or song critiquing?

--Jean

I see what you mean Jean,
my dictionary has a real gobbledyguck kind of definition. (wouldn't have helped me much)

Prosody (by my definition) in terms of songwriting, is when the words and the music are in sync.
Sometimes a lyric is written with enough rhythm in the natural fall of the words... that the composer's job is fairly easy. and a melody can sort of mold around the words.
(or atleast it seems that way to me)
That would be prosody.

I've heard other songs where some of the music makes you sing some words with an un-natural accent. on the wrong syllable...as it were. (bugs the heck out of me) That song would NOT have prosody.
I should add... the style of music matches the lyrical message. as in there would be a considerable debate as to whether there is prosody in a gospel song with punk rock styled music.
(some would vehemently say no... bome would think it's just fine)
so some of this is definitely open to debate and personal opinion. LOL

------------------
Harriet
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/9/harrietamesmusic.htm

[This message has been edited by Harriet Ames (edited 04-23-2004).]

Prosody is the marriage of music to fit the lyric message. Listen to Steve Earle's "My Old Friend The Blues." You will get a sense of the blues. This comes to mind "I Like It I Love It" by Tim McGraw. Maybe a good example. The upbeat, happy mood of the song fits the fun lyric.

My dictionary says Prsody is, and I type from the book:
(say pro-za-dee) noun.
The theories or principles of writing or analyzing the structure of verse.
Don't think I have ever heard the word used in conversation ever. But have seen it in text a time or two, and scratched my head,
And I bet I am no orphan.
Kept promising myself I would look it up.
Now have.
Hope that helps Jean.
And thank you for the big help on Theory and education forum this morning too Jean.
Really appreciate it.
Graham


------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

You're welcome, Graham! Glad to help out.

Thanks for your input on this, too. --Jean

I always thought that if "rhapsody" was that stuff that was half-sung with a lot of rhyming to a hip-hop beat, then "prosody" was probably not sung and didn't rhyme at all if it could avoid it. (I suppose that makes country music a "Merle-ody.")

Joe

No Rox. What you describe there is called Crap City Stuff.
Great play on words on the Merleody by the way.
Wonder who Merle owed his dues to?
And glad I could return the favor jean.
Graham



------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Here's my problem with how people use this term: Some people are talking about how the musical phrasing matches up with the lyrical phrasing (accent on the right syllable and all that). Some people are talking about whether the "feel" of the music matches the message in the lyric (both sad, both happy, both peaceful, both fun and energetic).

Does it mean BOTH? --Jean

I think it is possible, that in both cases, people are using a word they do not fully comprihend the meaning of, as neither case seems to fit the bill to me Jean.
I am not sure I can give an example of the effective use of the word.
I have never used it.
Never heard it i conversation.
And nevre really understood what it is meant to be saying when seeing it written.
And the only wisdom I gleaned for actually looking it up, was to confirm, I don't see any situation I would want to use the word.
Maybe some who believe they can give the effective use of it in a sentance, could do so, and so elighten those who need be.
Graham


------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Yes.

Here are two definitions of prosody, as the word applieds to songwriting.

Jason Blume:
To achieve prosody, the melody should sound as if it is happily married to the lyric it accompanies, and vice versa. A melody that makes the listener feel happy should accompany a lyric that has a positive, pleasant message. Likewise, a lyric that conveys sadness should be expressed melodically with notes, chords, and musical phrases that evoke a similar feeling of sadness. Minor chords typically contribute to a sad-sounding melody, while major chords can have the opposite effect.

Pat Pattison:
Prosody means that elements are working together for a common purpose, for example, when we line up words and notes -- matching stressed notes appropriately with stressed syllables. We could work with shape and weight in designing racing cars. We could create a relationship between rhythm and meaning by writing about galloping horses in a clippity-clop rhythm.

Neither of those example ring true to how the dictionary definition states it to be.
The dictionary mentions only verse. Music does not come into the equasion.
It can be song lyric, or poem as I see it.
Hang on. I have anothre dictionary.
Yep.
Macquarie Dictionary.
Prosody:
1: The science, or study of poetic metres and verification.
2: A particular, or distinctive system of metrics and verification: Milton's prosody (Late ME, from Latin Proodia, from the Greek prosoidia, tone or accent, modulation of voice, song sung to music.
Don't know I should have done that.
I'm even more confused.
Though do understand better why I have never heard it spoken.
Graham

------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

I like Jason Blume's definition better, though I've heard the word used both ways. I'd never heard the word prosody either until I started attending group song critique sessions.

------------------
Later,

Pat

Harriet, Graham, Duke, Joe (ha!), Truman, and Pat--

Thank you so much for responding. I think I got it now. Graham, your dictionaries have done the same for me as for you--got me more confused! However, I appreciate the time and effort, and I think I will go with the double definition as explained here by several people. This has helped me a lot! Thanks for your responses, all! I still can't believe I can type a question and get answers like this. It's cool! --Jean

Ah...finally a place where I may be of assistance!
...and it's NOT because I know the word, nor have ever used it or heard of it....lol

I happen to possess one of those big fat old dictionaries full of old knowledge, the massive Webster's New International Dictionary of 1940, otherwise known as "The Big Dic'"

pros'o-dy ... a song with accompaniment, the tone or accent of a syllable, a mark of accent or quality.
The science or art of versification. specif.
a. The subject which deals with principles and methods of vesification, esp. as dependent upon syllabic quantities and accents and their ordering; more widely the systematic study of metrical structure, including varieties of poetic feet and meters, rhymes and rhyming patterns, types of stanzas and strophes, and fixed forms; as, the history of prosody.
b. A particular system or theory of versification or of metrical composition; an established or consistent method of versifying, or a set of metrical rules guiding and individual or group,as, Horace's prosody; a poet without a prosody.
(there's more...lol)

of related interest:
prosodic... of or pertaining to prosody

prosodian... a prosodist

prosodist... One versed in prosody

prosodion... a kind of processional chant by a chorus approaching the temple or altar of a god.

-Gary

Ya welcome Jean.
Me. I'm going with Gary.
After all.
It's in the book.
The Big Dic book at that.
That is an explanation, rather than an interperitaion.
All I hope is I don't get booked for soliciting for the purposes of prosodytution that's all.
Graham

------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Dictionaries are wonderful tools, but they don't always have the answer you need.

You can rely on the dictionary to define prosody, but in songwriting circles, you will not be communicating clearly. It is a word that has taken on its own meaning among songwriters, and the Blume and Pattison definitions will serve you well when discussing the concept with other songwriters.

You can look up "squirrel" in the dictionary, too. But when you use that word around Nashville, it has a meaning that you will not find in the OED or Webster's. But people in the industry will know what it means.

Maybe so Trueman, but the way I look at it using a word in other than its definned meaning, then make that to be informal usage, or slang if you like.
Maybe a collacialism even, as in the case of squirrel.
Fine if it is widely used in conversation, and not as a bent definition of the word's meaning.
Like gay, sharp, cool, etc, is used.
I would think writers would subscribe to the practice of using the word for what it was meant for in serious dicussion.
After all. What the heck is the use of making a point if only a select few have any idea of what you are talking about.
And the rest, either think you don't know your english, or nod wisely, and remind themselves to look up the word in the dictionary when they get home.
Then, on doing so decide you don't knoeww your english.
Graham



------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Every occupational field has its own language, not necessarily tied to the dictionary.

When an aircraft mechanic "cannibalizes" a part from a broken aircraft to fix another, similar aircraft, it does not mean the plane eats the other plane.

When a chef calls for the "kitchen slut" he is not requesting a waitress with loose morals, but an olive oil blended with another type of vegetable oil (as opposed to virgin or extra virgin olive oil).

Since this is a songwriting forum, I think Truman's songwriting terms are more what is indicated than a listing in a dictionary which was printed before Hank Williams cut his first record.

dawg

Hi all-
I agree with Truman, and Greydog-
In the songwriting field, the word takes on
it's own definition (character)- as mentioned; we all know even in the dictionary, some words can have more than one specific meaning- also, the listings can differ, in other dictionaries. This word, seems to have several meanings.
Now a days, in most college dictionaries, the numbers of new entries are becoming
so immense, that even slang, and catch phrases, are considered every day language.
This shows the flexibility of how we interpret meanings of words, and what is considered to be accepted.
Some definitions can vary, from book to book.

Random House Websters College Dictionary-

prosody 1. the science or study of poetic meters and verification. 2. a particular or distinctive system of metrics and verification: Milton's prosody. 3. the stress and intonation patterns of an utterance- accent of a syllable, modulation of voice, song.
Now all of this to me, is pretty inconclusive- even a bit vague.
Particularly, if one does not associate the word/meaning, with or to, a related subject.

Also on page 103 of Successful Lyric Writing by Sheila Davis she states prosody as:

Prosody- according to the dictionary, means
the study of metrical structure. The Greek word prosodia meant both a song sung to instrumental music and a tone or accent of a syllable. Contemporary songwritersuse the term prosody to describe the way words fit with the music- wether they mean perfectly (good prosody) or poorly (bad prosody).

If this all makes any sense.


Cal

[This message has been edited by Cal (edited 04-26-2004).]

classically, this is a poetic term. i think that's why the dictionary definition seems vague when it is applied to songwriter -- because it has only been applied to songwriting in the modern sense rather recently.

to a poet - that definition is quite specific.

when poets refer to a poem's "prosody" they are referring to the collection of individual elements that make up the formal layout of a particular poem: structure, meter, possibly rhyme (since that is related to stress), etc. these are all elements of "prosody."

i would presume that when songwriters talk about prosody, they're talking about something similar -- although perhaps less formally since meter means something rather different to musicians than it does to formal poets.

for an example, try singing, in an organized manner, something written in dactylic tetrameter.

------------------
kit malone
http://www.kitmalone.com

[This message has been edited by kit (edited 04-26-2004).]

Maybe an example or two would help.

Garth Brooks - "I've got friends in LOW places" has a happy marriage of lyrics and music since the word "LOW" goes DOWN in pitch. It would be very weird for it to go UP in pitch.

"Up, up and Away" (The Association?); the melody goes up, up and away.

Less specific, but maybe along the same lines: Happy-go-lucky lyrics are usually married to uptempo, major key songs.

It would not be good prosody, for example, to marry the lyric "I'm flyin' high on love today" with a minor key melody or a dirge tempo.

Conversely, the blues mostly have minor melodies ("blue notes") even if the chord progression contains major chords.


------------------
Larry
www.audibleresponse.com

Truman (and others) gave us all the right meaning in the terms songwriting. No sense arguing with it.

Asked and answered

------------------
John

http://www.johnkscott.com

Actually I think everyone has given valid examples of how the term is used, as well as valid definitions.
I see little to debate, and see very little difference in all presented. Be it a song or poem, your prosodic efforts will be based upon the same elements, with the only exception being that prosody in lyrics will include notes/tones/semi-tones. Volume, accent,timing, rhyme, & rhythm apply equally to both...eh? what say ye?

-gary

I agree Gary.
And I didn't even know anybody was arguing.
I thought we were all passing comment in line with out opinions.
Dawg. Canabalise is used by not only aircraft mechanics. It is used by all make it and fix it with what you've got folks.
It is in fact the very process I used to build the testing machines for both coil amd leaf springs for a production line run back in the 50's.
As to the kitchen slut thing.
I see the logic of how that is used .
We keep the good stuff my mate cold presses for the special stuff too.
I would hope the chef would not expect the new kitchen hand to know what he was asking for when he used it, without first giving the rules (and words) of my kitchen guided tour.
Graham



------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

Here's why I asked: People have used this term when critiquing my songs. I want to know what they are talking about. I asked the first person who used it about my song to please explain what she meant by "prosody." She gave me a definition.

Later, someone asked me what it meant, and I repeated what the above-mentioned person had told me. This person then explained that what I described was already commented on in the critique she had received, so "prosody" must mean something else.

That's when I started getting really confused.

The thing about language is that it is always changing. The dictionary lags a little behind. If people keep using "prosody" to mean something slightly different with reference to music, eventually there will be a new definition added in Webster's, starting with "5. In music...."

In the meantime, I just want to know what the heck people are talking about, whether they are using the word correctly or not. It seems there are enough people who mean the same thing by it, that it falls in the same category as "kitchen slut" and "cannibalize." I'm like the new prep chef, learning the lingo.

I got my answer above--it means both of the things I thought it meant, in the context of songwriting.

Thanks all! Have fun voicing more opinions! I've enjoyed reading this thread! --Jean