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#145194 - 04/09/04 01:36 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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TrumanCoyote Offline
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Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mike Dunbar:
I think I'm going to put together an instrumental album of folk melodies, and see if I can sell it to businesses as free music they can play at their establishments that is public domain and needs no fees to play.

Mike

</font>


Isn't that sort of what Muzak does? I've never thought about it before. Does a business that buys Muzak have to have PRO licenses, or does Muzak pay for the use of the songs as part of their subscription fee?

#145195 - 04/09/04 01:49 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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guscave Offline
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Brian,
I like your idea of a single licensing fee. How can we get this put into practice, emails, petitions? Remember the PROs (like most of the industry)work VERY slow at change.

#145196 - 04/09/04 01:51 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Ray E. Strode Offline
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I have a sister-in-law in Lake Wales, Fl. Lake Wales puts on at least two Parades that I am aware of, Mada Graw,(spelling may be wrong), and Christmas. She was Treasurer for the Parade. We were discussing music and I mentioned the PRO'S. When I mentioned ASCAP she told me that they paid a fee to ASCAP and BMI for the music in the Parades. So it isn't just live gigs doing cover songs it is a lot of places. I believe that places that pipe music thru a sound system of a radio station also have to pay. I even heard of a furnature store being approached for playing a radio behind the counter. I'm not sure I agree with all of it but that's how it is.


Ray E. Strode
#145197 - 04/09/04 02:00 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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I'm gonna be in and around Nashville performing at a couple of different venues in the next month or six weeks.

I'll be performing a mix of my songs and some covers.

If any of you want to send someone out to collect some of your candy ass performance pennies...

Send them armed !

Nice to see that Brian is still standing up for folks like Elton John and the like.

goodness knows they need a percentage of what I earn at my gig !

Those glasses Elton wears are expensive !

Unbelievable....!

bob

#145198 - 04/09/04 02:37 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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guscave Offline
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Bob,
You don't have to pay jack, it's the venues that have to pay. Not just us "candy asses" but you as well.

BTW, not only are those glasses expensive, so are his wigs..lol

#145199 - 04/09/04 02:41 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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guildslinger Offline
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Graham, let me clarify. As a WRITER, and therefore the OWNER of the right to perform a song, I'm saying that I would GLADLY allow someone to perform MY WORK under certain circumstances (ie. "micro-venues" to coin a term), without chasing the few pennies resulting from such performance. I would also encourage the owners of the rights on other songs to forego the few pennies to which they have an established legal right, under those same circumstances. And yes, it should be their choice. And yes, I'm saying that those who pursue these small-time venues are indeed being petty, small-minded and shortsighted in terms of overall goodwill for the long term.

As far as being too lazy, etc. to fill out a songlist, I'd never even heard of such a practice before seeing it mentioned here. When I was playing rock and roll, by the end of the night it would have been difficult, (though not impossible) to reconstruct a list of what we had played, being somewhat free-wheeling and never using written playlists. Somebody let me know if that is expected in the US or if it is only Australian practice? You have assumed that it's standard practice here, widely known and obeyed, and that I'm choosing not to follow it. I assume that other owners of performance rights feel the same way I do about live performance to certain small audiences (ie the goodwill idea). Perhaps both of these assumptions are not quite correct . . .

Not trying to stir up a fight but the idea of a playlist works fine if everyone does it, and if it gets money to writers I'm all for it, I've just never seen it in practice.

#145200 - 04/09/04 02:45 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Corky Bernard (D) Offline
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We have more than one pro because "back in the day" ASCAP wouldn't represent hillbilly music, so BMI was started for country western. I am not sure how SESACA got into the act.

Muzak does pay royalites to the pros, and at a better rate than radio.

dawg


Wisdom does not always accompany age. Sometimes
age just shows up alone.
#145201 - 04/09/04 03:09 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Dawg,

SESAC is the second oldest PRO, was started to represent Gospel Music and European music (founded in 1930). It's also the one PRO that is for-profit. It's obviously grown to encompass more than Gospel and European music.

Jody


Jody Whitesides
A Funky Audio Lap Dance For Your Ears!
www.jodywhitesides.com
#145202 - 04/09/04 04:32 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Randall Baker Offline
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Bob,

If you're playing in and around Nashville, I doubt you'll find many venues that aren't paying licensing fees. I could be wrong, but I don't see many places around here that don't pay. It is the venue, however, that pays. I've never seen any dark suited thugs going around dipping their hand into someone's tip jar.

Aside from that, not sure why you'd want to play a bunch of covers if you hold fellow writers in such disdain as to make such a remark. If an artist asks for his share of royalties from record sales, would that qualify him as a "candy ass", as well? I'm not trying to stoke a fire here, but I've always found it curious that people can have such a hostile attitude toward someone else trying to make money when it's not at your expense.

------------------
http://www.songramp.com/homepage.ez?Who=RandyB

#145203 - 04/09/04 04:40 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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EdPerrone Offline
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Brian, nice proposal. I'd vote for it.

I think the entire issue of the PROs and related items needs to get more into the current debate-discussion-restructuring of the music industry. There are many, many issues that need to be addressed, this is one of them.

Guildslinger: Nobody's going to come after you. You can play what you want, it's the venue that is responsible for paying the licensing fees. The artist has to pay if they put a song on a CD, but for live performances the venue is responsible.

Kester: You can't record someone else's work on a demo or otherwise without their permission and payment of a fee. This fee is different than the PRO "performance" fee we've been talking about. This is a "mechanical license" fee (because you are reproducing the song "mechanically," so to speak, on a record, tape, or CD). But your buddies are breaking all kinds of laws, and if anyone cared enough to sue them, they'd be in big-time trouble. Congrats to you for standing up to them!

As to those who are advocating free music: I personally have no problem with a writer allowing the use of their songs for free. Just an hour ago, I signed an agreement to put one of my songs into an indie movie. I agreed to let them use the song for free, with the contingency that if they get major theatrical distribution, I get some payment.

Key words in that sentence: "I agreed to let them..." It was =my choice= to allow my music to be used for free.

Give Elton a call, ask him if you can play "Crocodile Rock" in your gigs without paying him. He may well say yes.

But until he does say yes, you have no right to simply appropriate his song.

--- Ed



------------------
http://www.edperrone.com/music/index.shtml
http://edperrone.rideonmusic.com

#145204 - 04/09/04 04:42 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Graham Henderson (D) Offline
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Fair enough guild.
I have folks who do my songs and don't do a play list. Most of the local ones I know about and can enter myself.
The rest I don't really care about as it is not a law thing, and we all have our own set of values.
All tell me they are doing them.
I doubt that consideration is shown to the writers and owners of songs most people would be covering.
And I doubt any established artist or writer really needs a travelling troubadour to do covres of their songs to up their sales.
And it sure doesn't have a chance helping the non performing writer sel any of the CDs they don't make.
Looking at the give the milk away thing.
The little royalty we writers get for the use of our song, is often in fact the only milk we will ever see from the cow.
And not a lot of cream in it at that.
I suppose there is a very slight chance Carol King or somebody might stop in at Ye Olde Moose Jaw Coffee shoppe to use the rest room one day and fall in love with one of the songs being played.
Don't think I would hold my breathje though.
The point that the artist does not have to spend a cent, just fill in the PRO playlist thing and trot it off to them via the net or mail, has been said over and over again.
Unfortunatly it seems Bob hasn't caught that bit yet.
Bands do it all the time here.
Not many of the local bands I admit, but every one of the professional touring bands I asked , and I ask them all, do so.
Gaham

------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

#145205 - 04/09/04 04:57 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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guildslinger Offline
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Thanks, Ed - I was half joking but also could point out that at various times I have been the writer, the performer, and the venue.

Graham - hopefully I'll get down there some time, play a song, submit my list and see some money! Lord knows I don't see it the rest of the time.

Have a great weekend, everyone. .

G

#145206 - 04/09/04 05:30 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Randy..

Please understand...part of my argument is and has always been that it IS at the performers expense.

Any time a venue incurs expenses the first place they go to recoup the money is from the budget for live music.

It's always been that way...

Yes,,,it's the band that pays !

Bob

#145207 - 04/09/04 05:46 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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EdPerrone Offline
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Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bob young:
Yes,,,it's the band that pays !

</font>


Well, in a sense, that, too, is fair. After all, without the songs, there would be no band and the band would have nothing to sell....

--- Ed


------------------
http://www.edperrone.com/music/index.shtml
http://edperrone.rideonmusic.com

#145208 - 04/09/04 05:58 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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No, Ed...not quite that simple...

Following that logic, my plumber has to pay a fee to the guy that invented all the tools he uses, and I've got to send checks to Leo Fender and Les Paul every time I plug in a guitar.

And if I'm gonna pay for using the songs, aren't I entitled to a cut if someone hears me singing one of their songs and sez "Hey...that's cool....I'm gonna go buy that CD !"

Bob

#145209 - 04/09/04 06:19 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Randall Baker Offline
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I understand the argument that the band playing in the club can, indeed, see less money if the venue owner cuts the entertainment budget due to the cost of licensing fees. I agree, to an extent, that the band gets screwed in such a case. However, I don't think that the band getting screwed justifies screwing songwriters on top of it. In other words, two wrongs don't make a right.

If someone wants to play my song at home, in the park, or on the street corner and let the world enjoy it free of charge....I say, have at it. If you're not making any money from it, then my cut of nothing will be nothing. I'll rack it up to gratis promotion of my material. Most of the arguments against paying licensing fees to the PROs (and by extension, the songwriters)seems to be based on an entirely different underlying theory.
That scenario would go something along these lines...
Joe owns a bar and wants to book live music, because he stands to profit from the traffic it generates in his bar. So, in general, we can surmise that music has a commercial value. It is not assumed unreasonable for Joe to want to profit in such a way.

Joe hires Frank to play in his bar for $50 a night. Frank's performance can be surmised to have it's own commercial value, since Joe is willing to pay him. It's not assumed to be unreasonable for Frank to want and expect to profit in such a way.

Frank plays a set of songs that includes a few covers, including one by Tom. These covers, more specifically, have commercial value. Otherwise, Frank wouldn't play them if he didn't feel they strengthened the value of his show. However, if Tom wants or expects a share of money, suddenly, we decide that's an unreasonable demand.

So, in this scenario, everyone *but* the person who created the song can reasonably expect to profit from it being performed. How is that right, or even make sense? It seems like a strange double standard to me, but that seems to be the unspoken logic behind many of these anti-PRO arguments.

Randy

#145210 - 04/09/04 06:30 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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TrumanCoyote Offline
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Following that logic, my plumber has to pay a fee to the guy that invented all the tools he uses, and I've got to send checks to Leo Fender and Les Paul every time I plug in a guitar.


No. When you buy a tool or a guitar, you pay for the unlimited right to use it until you break it, sell it, or lose it, or eat it.

Taking your example to the next step: if you are a plumber and can't get work because you don't have any tools, should you be able to demand that tool manufacturers provide tools to you for free?


And if I'm gonna pay for using the songs, aren't I entitled to a cut if someone hears me singing one of their songs and sez "Hey...that's cool....I'm gonna go buy that CD !"


This is an excellent point. I agree with you. But unfortunately, there is no existing structure that makes it happen. Perhaps there should be.


[This message has been edited by TrumanCoyote (edited 04-09-2004).]

#145211 - 04/09/04 06:35 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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rodhughey Offline
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Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bob young:
No, Ed...not quite that simple...

Following that logic, my plumber has to pay a fee to the guy that invented all the tools he uses, and I've got to send checks to Leo Fender and Les Paul every time I plug in a guitar.

And if I'm gonna pay for using the songs, aren't I entitled to a cut if someone hears me singing one of their songs and sez "Hey...that's cool....I'm gonna go buy that CD !"

Bob
</font>


Bob, I understand the logic you are using but...

You don't go hawk the plumber's tools out of a barrel at the local hardware or just pull a guitar off the music store shelf and walk out the door and start playing, nor do you just find these tools of the trades lying out on the street someplace, pick them up and start making your wages by using them.

You have to pull out your wallet at the counter and BUY those tools to acquire the right or priveledge of putting them to work for yourself.

It's apples and oranges.

Cheers,

Rod Hughey

[This message has been edited by rodhughey (edited 04-09-2004).]

#145212 - 04/09/04 07:02 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Brian Austin Whitney Offline
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Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bob young:
No, Ed...not quite that simple...

Following that logic, my plumber has to pay a fee to the guy that invented all the tools he uses, and I've got to send checks to Leo Fender and Les Paul every time I plug in a guitar.

And if I'm gonna pay for using the songs, aren't I entitled to a cut if someone hears me singing one of their songs and sez "Hey...that's cool....I'm gonna go buy that CD !"

Bob
</font>


Bob, for your analogy to be truly correct, you'd have to buy the publishing of the song, and then you'd OWN it, just as a plumber BUYS his tools outright and then can use them any way he wants. Buying a CD doesn't give you (or imply to give) you Live Performance rights to it for a crowd of fans. Just as buying a Videotape/DVD of a movie does not give you the right to then put it up on a movie screen and sell tickets to watch it. However, if a venue pays the associated fees for the legal USE of that movie, they could. Just as a venue pays the fees for the legal right to have those songs performed live. So, by all means, buy a song outright and then do what you want with it. Otherwise, your analogy fails.

Brian


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#145213 - 04/09/04 07:09 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Well....

I'm not gonna get emotionally invested in the argument this time..

the fact is, I've done my time on stage in big joints and small ones..

I'm all done, so this argument doesn't really affect me anymore..

It's you younger folks that have to deal with this...

Good luck....

But.If I write a thousand songs and they all become hits..I will never agree that a performer should ever be responsible for paying me to play those songs..

Never !

Good luck kids !

Bob

#145214 - 04/09/04 07:13 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Randall Baker Offline
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The "tool" analogy doesn't quite work for me, because someone did in fact pay for the tools. To me, the analogy only works if we say the plumber went to Home Depot, simply walked off with the tools, then started earning an income from using them; after which, someone came and asked for a cut of that money based on his using the tools they manufactured. If the plumber refused, and so did all his plumbing buddies, pretty soon the manufacturer would stop making tools.

Actually, that scenario isn't quite analagous either, because the manufacturer at least got some money from Home Depot. If songs are being used for commercial purposes, those songs are products. Why shouldn't the manufacturer get paid for his products?

In principle, there may be some merit to the point about performers getting a cut from CD sales if their performances contribute to those sales. I say in principle, because I'm not sure how, or if, it could work. Theoretically, though, I don't know why it'd wrong.

In relation to the PRO debate, though, it's apples and oranges. In theory, I could write a song that was never released on a CD, yet that song could still be used for commercial purposes. In fact, that is more than theoretical. I personally co-wrote a song almost ten years ago that has been played live on numerous occassions ever since then in this area...it's never been recorded. I've heard it played in front of a handful of people and in front of ten thousand people. I've never gotten a dime from it, though the people performing it certainly have benefited from it. Admittedly, I've never pursued the issue, but what if I'd wanted to collect performance royalties on that song? Would I be justified, or just a whiner?

Randy

#145215 - 04/09/04 07:26 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Brian Austin Whitney Offline
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Bob,

Actually I think this discussion has been more practical because for the most part folks have remained friendly.

I would agree with you that Artists shouldn't have to pay directly to perform songs. And apparently the "system" agrees with you to because individual performers aren't billed.

I also think you're placing all the "cost" on the entertainment budget. Using that same idea (i.e. if they pay a license fee, that pay comes out of the pocket of the performers that would be booked to perform) is the same as saying that the Waitresses are paid less because the venue bought table cloths and dishes to serve the customers with. Perhaps they do, but there's usually a "going rate" for labor, which includes performing artists at a certain size club with a certain sized audience. If an artist is selling themselves short on what they charge, it's really no different than a waitress or a cook in the same venue saying they'll work for free or for substandard wages. The best solution is to either improve your craft/ability and your perceived value as a performing employee to that venue OR simply stop taking sub par pay to help a venue make money they should be paying you.

Artists often play for free or less than what is fair because the simple process of playing music is seen to have intrinsic value to many people. Unfortunately those who play free make it harder for those who want to make a career out of it to ever make fair money. It's the same thing with artists signing really bad record deals. There's always a long line to sign a bad deal so the labels never feel the need/pressure to offer an honest and fair contract unless the artist is truly in demand. Most legit artists will pay a fair amount to an artist in demand. If someone isn't in demand, then they are far more at the mercy of the whims of a club owner, who may choose to take everything out on the artist financially. If they are going to book less because of the PRO fee, they'll also book less because they have to put in a sound system and less because they have to wash the windows and less because they have sweep the floor at night. All that stuff is simply the cost of business. They take it out on someone.. the waitress, the customers or the artist. It will always be that way.

Brian

[This message has been edited by Brian Austin Whitney (edited 04-09-2004).]


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#145216 - 04/09/04 07:51 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Look...

Everybody agrees that the number of live music venues is shrinking...

OK...Where is a fledgling writer gonna get his or her music heard....?

Small venues...

Local bands or troubadors singing songs by unknown artists..

That's it....
Forget about airplay..
So, as a writer, your best hope to have people hear your songs and then maybe purchase a CD is at some local venue...

OK....
So the local venue is paying a fee to BMI, ASCAP, SESAC or whoever...

You, as a fledgling writer may be a member of those organizations..
Are you going to see any of the money collected in those fees ?
No, you are not...
Mariah Carey will...Elton John will...Billy Joel will....
Will you.....? No !

Meanwhile the charge for BMI etc is placing a financial stress on the venue...
So, how does the venue save money ?

By eliminating the artist or artists that were gonna come in and sing your song.
Now....the folks in the bar don't ever hear your song, and they don't go down to the music store to buy it either.

So....who wins ?

You get to say.."That selfish bastard musician didn't play my song for free...guess I showed him/her !"

Yes....you sure did..

Hope you and your family enjoy listening to those songs you wrote.

You folks are fighting a battle for the rich and successful...not for you.
You're never gonna see the money you're fighting for..
Never !

So...if you think Metallica needs more money...well ..Rock on with your bad self.

But, if you want to do something to keep the venues available for the small time writer and artist, tell BMI and ASCAP and the rest to drop this licensing stuff.

In this world we live in now, it's not gonna do YOU any good !

And, yes, Brian....

Keeping a civil tone is a much better way to exchange these notions..
I think it's good to look at both sides with a cool head.
I know that I have not always been "cool" about this stuff, but you need to remember that performng was my whole life.
I am passionate about the plight of the performer..that's always going to be my first concern.

A great song with nobody to sing it ain't much !\

Bob

Bob

#145217 - 04/09/04 08:13 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Bob,

I would be very surprized if Les Paul didn't receive some money for having his name on all those guitars ... probably not as much as George Forman, but something.

dawg


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age just shows up alone.
#145218 - 04/09/04 08:14 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Randall Baker Offline
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There is the old saying about "getting your piece of the pie". That saying is based on a faulty economic principle that assumes there is some finite "pie" to be divided. Therefore, the bigger piece of pie Joe Schmo gets, the smaller the piece that's left for me. That's not the reality. The "pie" is not finite. The money involved in any industry is fluid...growing, shrinking, growing again and so forth, based on many factors. So, Dave Mathews getting rich does not automatically take money out of my pocket, or prohibit me from getting rich. People either want my product or they don't and my potential earnings are largely based on that desirability.

That said, the PRO's may very well be giving Dave Mathews more than he deserves relative to lesser known artists. What that means is that the PRO's need to reform their systems, which is an issue for their respective memberships to press. I personally think there is a strong need to reform the way the PRO's operate, but I doubt I will ever favor abolishing them. At least, not as long as I feel songwriters have as much a right to earn a living from their craft as anyone else in the music business.

Randy

#145219 - 04/09/04 08:17 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Randall Baker Offline
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I didn't know George Foreman made guitars. That guy's got his hands in everything. [Linked Image]

Randy

#145220 - 04/09/04 08:25 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Brian Austin Whitney Offline
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Bob,

If an unknown artist is playing their songs for 5 people in 1 venue on the entire planet, there probably could never be a system that could actually pay them a fee for those performances accurately because the money is too small and even the most honest "sampling" wouldn't likely pick them up. If they actually sampled every venue on every song every night, then the PRO fees would have to be raised so dramatically that it WOULD be cost prohibitive.

Also, if an artist is that unknown, you're probably not playing their songs anyway right? Perhaps if you're a personal friend or associate say from these message boards, you might hear their song and perform it, but it's not the fact that you might perform a Dawg song that these issues exist. Most live performers would never consider doing an unknown indie artist song. They do Elton songs, so Elton gets paid. If everyone decided to do a Bob Young song across the country on the same scale, you'd get a big fat check (and based on what you've been saying here, you'd refuse it) but the money would be paid to you. I am sure if Jody Whitesides writes a song that everyone decides to start playing in bars across the country, he'd be more inclined to keep it. So would most writers. It's really no different than getting a lot of airplay on radio or selling a lot of records.

I noticed today that Jen Chapin is in the top 10 selling artists on Amazon. That's a pretty amazing feat for an indie artist and fellow JPF member. Once someone breaks through, they should get to make some money. Most artists DO starve their entire career.. we should be happy that some of us can finally break through and make a living.

I know JPF members who get 400-1200 bucks a month consistantly from a mix of radio play and venue performances. That money helps them keep making music. Sure, it's not Elton money, but if that money isn't collected, the same phenom you fear at a venue (i.e. they rob peter to pay paul so to speak) would happen on the PRO side. Those artists making a little would make nothing. Those making a lot, would simply make a little less.

I think we need to go back to the fact we're talking $1-3 dollars a day for most small venues. That's divided up theoretically to all the writers represented in the survey. If 40-50 songs are performed in a given night that's about 2-6 cents per song. It's not an unreasonable amount of money for the creators to ask for to be a big part of creating the entertainment in the venue for that night. IF the fees were 10 bucks a song all night long, that would be different. But we really are talking less than chump change. But all those small fees add up to a pool of money so that it can supplement everyone from the large to the small.

I don't see how 2 dollars per day in fees causes a venue to not be able to hire an artist they were going to pay 50-100 bucks to perform those songs? If they are working on margins that small, then all they have to do is pay the artist 48 dollars a night instead. But it wouldn't STOP them from hiring anyone. Just as buying a table cloth wouldn't mean they could no longer have a waitress to serve the table it goes on.

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

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#145221 - 04/09/04 08:42 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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I'd love to hear from a JPF member who is making money from a PRO because their song(s) are being performed live.

Who are these people ?

Boband Dawg..

Les gets a small stipend from Gibson as a "Technical adviser"
He does not get a fee for his name being on the guitars..
Gibson bought that name and copywrote it a long, long time ago.
Les does have a degree of input in case
Gibson changes the Les Paul style of guitar...
Otherwise...nada !



[This message has been edited by bob young (edited 04-09-2004).]

#145222 - 04/09/04 09:30 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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It's interesting to me that so much passion can be aroused over a rather small issue. Before anyone goes apoplectic, let me explain that we are only talking about the very smallest venues for whom an ASCAP license represents the difference between them having, or not having, entertainment.

I'm sure that a vast majority of live music venues have, and always have had, PRO licenses. Forget those guys. They are making a living, paying their musicians and paying the songwriters. Works for everyone.

But the really small venues might be another story. I still believe that anyone who can afford a band can afford the license, and that most of the guys who refuse do so for spite. I have no proof of that. No proof of ANYTHING has been offered in this debate. But no matter. Bob makes the point that the number of venues are shrinking. That may be. I'd LOVE to see some data. But even if it is true, how much of that blame can be placed at the feet of the PROs? What about DJ's?

The last 10 or 20 years has seen an enormous increase in the number of working DJs and in the number of clubs that employ them. How many musicinas have been put out of work because of that? Versus how many put out of work because of ASCAP? I sure don't know the answer and would do back flips if someone could enlighten me.

Every time I go to a wedding and see a DJ, that I know is making $500-$1000, I think, "There could be 5 guys making $100 or $200 each, instead of this moron." But, the DJ never plays a song too fast, or too slow. He never sings off key. He honors every request. Sadly, a lot of people would rather see a DJ than a band. Who you gonna blame for that?

Like Bob, I've played a million gigs. I watched the disco thing in the 70's rip the heart out of working musicians. I survived it by adapting. We stuck a Bee Gees song in between "Born To Be Wild" and "Honky Tonk Women." We learned that we enjoyed playing the BGs and that our audience still loved the Stones etc. We survived, but a lot of working musicians ended up out of work. They didn't--or couldn't--adapt. Who's fault is that?

The economy has stunk for a few years, especially since 9/11. It has affected everyone. I'm sure bars are affected. Money is tight. Some bars will cut back. How many musicians are affected by that as opposed to ASCAP. I don't have a the answer, but I would bet my guitar collection that the economy is a far greater culprit than ASCAP.

In the end, I think Bob is mostly right. It is ludicrous to work the system for every last penny. I also think it is perfectly right that writers get compensated for performances of their work.

I think 2 things should happen: 1) I think the PROs should simply be reasonable. Stop hassling the Girl Scouts for singing ASCAP songs at their campouts. Stop asking for fees that small clubs cannot bear. Let the corner bar play the ball game on the TV. Encourage the use of their product with intelligent, motivational strategies that will make the product available to anyone who needs it, at a price that makes sense; and 2) we need to understand who the real bogeyman is. The so-called damage to working musicians by ASCAP has got to be miniscule compared to other sources. Two-dollar-a-gallon gasoline will put more musicians out of work than ASCAP has in its 100 year history.

[This message has been edited by TrumanCoyote (edited 04-09-2004).]

#145223 - 04/09/04 10:06 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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EdPerrone Offline
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You know, maybe Bob has a good point here. He says it's all about the performer. Well, maybe it is.

Maybe the PRO reform we need is to stop licensing venues and begin licensing performers. You want your band to be able to play songs from the BMI catalog? Simply pay an annual license fee and have at it.

Or take the "ala carte" approach: Specify the songs you want to include in your shows and pay by the song. That would kill two birds with one stone, as we could make sure the money goes to the writers whose songs are actually being played.

Venues pay nothing. Performers pay for songs, just like plumbers pay for their tools.

This is not particularly far-fetched. After all, when you want to RECORD a song, you pay the copyright holder. The record company doesn't pay, the CD manufacturer doesn't pay, the record store doesn't pay -- the performer pays.

And it is the performer who is actually using the song -- the club is only using the performer.

Just a thought....

--- Ed


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#145224 - 04/09/04 10:30 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Harry J Offline
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Average set = 10 songs
8.5 cents a play = 85 cents
4 sets = $3.40

Just let the venues pay it, it's about the same. They stand to make the most money from the live show, not the performers. If they're not then they don't need the live entertainment anyway.

#145225 - 04/09/04 11:16 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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I made over $700 for performances of my song "Eat More Crawfish" paid by ASCAP. This included performances by C.J. Chenier and Big Al and the Heavyweights.

To date, I've had songs on over a dozen commercially released albums, not counting my own. I've gotten a few checks for mechanicals, but by far, the most money I've made off my songs, as performed by other artists, is for performance royalties. One of my songs has even ended up on an artist's "best of" compilation. I've never seen a dime from it since the first pressing.

So far, my experience has been that my songs make more money from my PRO than they do from any labels other than my own. I'm not aware of anyone ever buying one of my albums after hearing someone else sing my songs, only after hearing me sing them. I think the best chance of my making money from an artist covering my song at a performance is by having some bigger artist hear it, record it, release it, and then I'd get better performance royalties from my PRO.

All the Best,
Mike



------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

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#145226 - 04/09/04 11:29 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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I guess George Foreman started putting his name on guitars when he found oput Andrew LLoyd Weber had started putting out them weber cooker thing Randy.
Graham


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#145227 - 04/10/04 12:57 AM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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3daveyO3 Offline
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OK...
I've been following this thread since I saw it posted, and I've had to take some time to get some thoughts together.

Let me first state that I am both a writer and publisher member of ASCAP. I have made in performance royalties, $200.00 a year over each of the last 3 years, from the ASCAPlus Awards Program. I have received airplay on college and indie radio, been on TV shows, and yet when I get my ASCAP statements, it reports no surveyed performances of my catalog. For example, last year (May, 2003), I was on a local morning talk show that is broadcast on our local ABC affiliate. About a week after the show, the show's producer emailed me for song titles, PRO, publisher and writer info, so that a cue sheet could be submitted. Almost a year later, I have not yet received credit for that show. I contacted ASCAP, and they told me to contact the TV station. I contacted the show's producer, and she blamed it on an intern for not filing the cue sheet properly. This becomes a frustrating process for an indie artist, chasing people down for who knows how much money (I've heard varying amounts, from $40.00-$75.00, depending on what time of day the show was broadcast, how many songs, how much of each song actually made it on the air, etc...)

Second, over the last year or so, when trying to book shows at certain venues, I have been told by the venue that they are no longer booking music for various reasons, one of them being the PRO fees. Some of them don't know what to say, so they try to guise it under things like asking me if I have liability insurance, in case I get injured while I'm performing in their venue. It's most troubling when it's a major, national coffehouse chain that discontinues music for these reasons, real or imagined, because for what they charge for a coffee, they could easily pay those PRO fees.

Anyway, as someone who performs their own material and self publishes it, I feel that as the owner of my material, I should be able to perform it wherever and whenever. I would also hope that a venue thinks enough of music to pay PRO fees whenever they have piped in music, or someone who plays covers, however, most times it's simply not the case. Perhaps if some of the money spent on the salaries of these PRO reps to "educate" the venue owners and using threatening language to force them into paying PRO fees was used to increase the accuracy of surveys so that the "little guys", ie; the independent, performing singer songwriter, could get proper credit for radio, TV AND live performance, there wouldn't be as much to gripe about.

I have no problem with someone who has a hit song, or catalog of hits getting what they have coming to them, but I would like to see the smaller, lesser known artist get a cut that's a closer reflection of the actual activity that in most case goes unreported or unsurveyed because they are "lesser known". OK...that's my .02...I'm tired, I've had a couple of beers, and I don't feel like getting fired up about anything right now...take care and have a wonderful Easter, Passover, or whatever you believe in...

Davey O.

------------------
Davey O. Music (ASCAP)
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#145228 - 04/10/04 05:05 AM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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EdPerrone Offline
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Davey O.: Well said.

TV and film tracking is a whole 'nuther ballgame in itself. I'm on a mailing list for film music composers, and they are griping continually about how the PROs fail to accurately track (and therefore pay) their royalties. And they're not all "little guys," unless you count as a "little guy" the one composer who recently said he was screwed out of over $100,000 in royalties because of a cue sheet foul-up for a SINGLE movie trailer.

Obviously the PROs have to get their acts together in a lot of respects: education (not only of those who pay the license fees, but also of songwriters and publishers), pubilc relations, better tracking, etc. Hopefully some of this is in the offing. And hopefully, we who have the most vested interest in it will have some input into the process.

What really gets me about this entire thing with the small venues griping about the "expense" is this: Paying performance royalties is nothing new. It's not something that people came up with last week. It's been around for 100 years or more. They should have been paying licensing fees all along. But then when someone points out to them that they need to pay the license fee to be legal, they say, "You mean we have to PAY for this music???!! But we've been getting it for free for all this time..."

Duh.... Yes, you do have to pay. Just because you've been getting away without paying it for years doesn't mean it's been legal to do that.

Kind of reminds me of the file-sharers. "You mean we have to PAY for this music???!! But we've been getting it for free all this time....."

--- Ed


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#145229 - 04/10/04 09:42 AM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Bob Young (D) Offline
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Thanks Mike...

Guess I'm gonna go stand in the corner and shut the ---- up now !

Bob

#145230 - 04/10/04 01:32 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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3daveyO3 Offline
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Just a thought...
What about street performers? Is the sidewalk eventually going to be considered a "venue", therefore allowing the PRO's to go after the city, town or village where that sidewalk is, for licensing fees?

Davey O.

------------------
Davey O. Music (ASCAP)
http://www.daveyomusic.freehosting.net
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#145231 - 04/10/04 01:33 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
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Mike Dunbar Offline
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Bob,

You're welcome.

I've only gotten paid my 8.5 cent rate on a few of my cuts, but I don't care. I'm not going to go after those folks. I want them to record more of my songs. When I finally get a big cut, then I'll make the money. That's how the game works.

I'm an idealist, but I've learned that there are so many injustices out there (as a matter of fact...put up two columns, justices and injustices, and see which one gets filled first), that I could work at it full time and only make a small dent in one injustice. I want to spend my time improving my music and my music business, so I've looked at how the game is played and play it. To quote, or my old memory failing me, paraphrase Robert Heinlein, "Sure the game is rigged, but if you don't play you can't win." When I win, I give money to people who are trying to change things. In the meantime, this isn't world hunger, it's the music business, so I'll play by the rules until they get changed.

So you idealist guys all argue. I've already been going through my folk music books. I'm going to start recording folk melodies, which I document as being public domain. I'll offer these on the internet as well as on Taxi as music for whicn PRO fees do not apply. Maybe I'll sell a few. Some of you good people may want to try this. If it sounds good, someone may buy it.

All the Best,
Mike

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music

[This message has been edited by Mike Dunbar (edited 04-10-2004).]


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#145232 - 04/10/04 03:23 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,124
Brian Austin Whitney Offline
Brian Austin Whitney  Offline

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Indianapolis, IN USA
Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by EdPerrone:
Davey O.: Well said.

Obviously the PROs have to get their acts together in a lot of respects: education (not only of those who pay the license fees, but also of songwriters and publishers), pubilc relations, better tracking, etc. Hopefully some of this is in the offing. And hopefully, we who have the most vested interest in it will have some input into the process.
</font>


Ed,

It's true that PRO's have a lot of problems. But one of them ISN'T whether they have the right and duty to collect money from venues. For those who say "since the PRO's aren't dispensing the money correctly, we shouldn't have to pay our bill to them" do they also stop paying for stuff at other places where the accounting department is making a mistake? If Wal-mart doesn't pay their suppliers correctly, does that mean that the public can walk in and take anything on the shelves? Of course not. The issue is between the supplier and accountants.. not the purchaser of the goods and services. I wish we put a fraction of the energy that many put into fighting collecting money due and put it into fighting to make sure the money gets properly dispensed. If we keep fighting among ourselves, we'll get the shaft from BOTH ends.

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

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#145233 - 04/10/04 03:31 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,124
Brian Austin Whitney Offline
Brian Austin Whitney  Offline

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Indianapolis, IN USA
Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 3daveyO3:
Just a thought...
What about street performers? Is the sidewalk eventually going to be considered a "venue", therefore allowing the PRO's to go after the city, town or village where that sidewalk is, for licensing fees?

Davey O.

</font>


Davey,

The the local town is charging those performers a fee to be able to play, they probably should have to pay some of that money into the PRO's. If they aren't charging money to sell licenses to the performers, then it wouldn't apply. Maybe that would be enough to make cities stop charging buskers for licenses. I know some big cities actually charge beggars a license fee (I am dead serious) so they can get a cut of the harrassment of their tourists and citizens. Bob Young might remember the big expose that was done a few years ago where they profiled one well known Chicago street "beggar" who was making $170,000 dollars a year and had a house in the 'burbs. When I worked at the Sears Tower, it was almost a physical battle to get past the never ending string of beggars on the streets. That was the early 90's... not sure if it's still that bad downtown anymore or not.

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@gmail.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#145234 - 04/10/04 03:37 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 191
Harry J Offline
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Harry J  Offline
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Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Brian Austin Whitney:

Maybe that would be enough to make cities stop charging buskers for licenses.
</font>


Forgive my ignorance, but what is a "busker"?
In the context I have an idea, but I've never heard this term before.

#145235 - 04/10/04 04:24 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,096
TrumanCoyote Offline
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TrumanCoyote  Offline
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Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by EdPerrone:


After all, when you want to RECORD a song, you pay the copyright holder. The record company doesn't pay, ...

</font>


I believe the record company DOES pay, not the performer.

#145236 - 04/10/04 04:33 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 43
sechman Offline
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sechman  Offline
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Anaheim
Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Brian Austin Whitney:
Bob,

I don't see how 2 dollars per day in fees causes a venue to not be able to hire an artist they were going to pay 50-100 bucks to perform those songs? If they are working on margins that small, then all they have to do is pay the artist 48 dollars a night instead. But it wouldn't STOP them from hiring anyone. Just as buying a table cloth wouldn't mean they could no longer have a waitress to serve the table it goes on.

Brian
</font>

$2 a day assumes that the venue is having live music every night. Most don't. It's usually a Fri-Sat type of thing. Besides....ASCAP doesn't doesn't charge by the day.
Also with respect to someone else's post, I asked Mr. Skinner of ASCAP if I, as a solo performer, could pay the requisite fees myself. Because I don't work 7 nights a week, they don't want MY money. But they don't mind PREVENTING me from making money by strong-arming Mom & Pop . Also, Mom & Pop ALREADY pay licensing fees for their piped-in music.
Poor ASCAP. I feel SO bad. Hopefully, they won't go jacking up people who have parties and hire me to play. That's where the real money is.
Just to let you know...I survived this weekend without doing my "little gig". Screw ASCAP. They didn't make 1/8 of a cent off of my efforts as a result. Looks like they'll have to double-charge the Viper Room to make up the difference.

#145237 - 04/10/04 08:35 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Graham Henderson (D) Offline
Graham Henderson (D)  Offline

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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 13,618
Esperance. West Australia
Mike. When I was 17, I was the bouncer for a band who decided to hire a hall and run weekly dances.
The very first night, a car load of plain clothes cops fronted up along with the beat cop of the area, and told us we either paid five pound a night, or they closed us up.
We paid it.
Even thought it was a bit cool we had to pay a bit of protection.
It wasn't quite Squizzy Taylor (A Melgourne standover man. Down under Al Capone if you like) but it was a heap of bent cops.
Almost as good.
These days, I would have refused, took the beat cops number, remembered the dick's faces and lodged a formal complait.
Call it being an idielist if you like.
I call it growing up.
Reflecting on the even, with the benifit of a few more years, left me with the thought that if you accept injustice as how things are done and so go along with them, you are in fact part of the injustice.
On the supply traditional music thing Mike.
Best of luck with it.
I do wonder how cost effective it will be though if working on what I understand your posision on backing tracks, where the performing session artist on them all have to get payed as if they were in fact playing live every time said backing tracks are used at a venue.
Even with you doing all the tracks as I am sure you could, it would stil apply I would think, given you can only play one instrument at a time. Most times anyway.
And you are a union man as I understand it, so would go along with what goes along in the union.
Could use all non union musos I suppose.
Maybe even some from Malasia or somewhere to further cut costs.
Contact Nikki or similar.
They should be able to put you onto their slave supplier.
After all. THat is how it works, so you should be comfortable with that.
Maybe start a new company even.
Tower Full Backing Bands In A Box Pty Ltd.
Harry. A busker is, in general terms, a street performer, who works anywhere, hoping to get a few coins thrown at them.
Some pretty well known names have done it from time to time.
Graham


------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/grahamhendersonmusic.htm

#145238 - 04/10/04 09:26 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Mike Dunbar Offline
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JPF Mentor

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 8,574
Nashville Tennessee
Hey Graham, great story. I've started recording already. I'm playing all the instruments myself, guitar, mandolin, bass, and percussion. It will be 100% ok with the union and the cost to me will be zero. I'm using songs from Lomax's "Folksongs of North America" to begin with.

The difference with your story is that the cops were acting against the law, the PROs are collecting legally sanctioned fees. The disagreements here are with the laws and the procedures used to enforce them. I think the procedures could be adjusted. I don't know enough about our laws to say whether they do or not.

Funny, when I was younger, I'd rankle against any injustice that came my way. As a teenager part of my front porch was burned because I was a member of a civil rights teen group. Lately, I've learned to pick my battles. I still hate injustice, but I find that I can support groups, like ours here, that do those battles. This leaves me more time for music.

Although what the PROs are doing may be unfair to some ways of thinking, they are not against the law, therefore they are not an "injustice."

Someone could have easily started a post titled "Small businesses put the screws to Big and Little Guys" decrying the fact that small businesses would rather quit presenting live music than to pay the fees required of such entrepeneurs. I think most of the posts here would have been the same.

Several years ago, I went to BMI, going to battle for a club that would cut my gig rather than pay the fee. The club ended up paying the fee. I lost the gig to Karaoke anyway. Since then I've gotten more money for three songs from ASCAP than I would have working that club for five months. Who's on my side? Probably neither, but I'd rather keep open the possibility that the guy who paid me more money can increase that in the future.

All the Best,
Mike

------------------
Mike Dunbar Music


You've got to know your limitations. I don't know what your limitations are. I found out what mine were when I was twelve. I found out that there weren't too many limitations, if I did it my way. -Johnny Cash

It's only music.
-niteshift

Mike Dunbar Music

#145239 - 04/10/04 10:11 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,124
Brian Austin Whitney Offline
Brian Austin Whitney  Offline

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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 19,124
Indianapolis, IN USA
[/b][/QUOTE]
$2 a day assumes that the venue is having live music every night. Most don't. It's usually a Fri-Sat type of thing. Besides....ASCAP doesn't doesn't charge by the day.
Also with respect to someone else's post, I asked Mr. Skinner of ASCAP if I, as a solo performer, could pay the requisite fees myself. Because I don't work 7 nights a week, they don't want MY money. But they don't mind PREVENTING me from making money by strong-arming Mom & Pop . Also, Mom & Pop ALREADY pay licensing fees for their piped-in music.
Poor ASCAP. I feel SO bad. Hopefully, they won't go jacking up people who have parties and hire me to play. That's where the real money is.
Just to let you know...I survived this weekend without doing my "little gig". Screw ASCAP. They didn't make 1/8 of a cent off of my efforts as a result. Looks like they'll have to double-charge the Viper Room to make up the difference.[/B][/QUOTE]

Scott,

But using this example, we're assuming your performance literally produces ZERO EXTRA INCOME to the bar. If you produce extra income, then your cost is even less. If you aren't producing enough extra income to cover your own cost plus a profit, then THAT is the real reason they aren't booking you anymore. It's not the 2 dollars a day (or 15 dollars a week...). It's the fact that currently, at most you're only a break even venture or less. If you were making them a profit, then by not hiring you, they are LOSING money, with or without the PRO fee.

Brian


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@gmail.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

[Linked Image]
#145240 - 04/10/04 10:18 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
Joined: Aug 2003
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EdPerrone Offline
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EdPerrone  Offline
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Posts: 399
Mt. Pleasant, TX
Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Brian Austin Whitney:
It's true that PRO's have a lot of problems. But one of them ISN'T whether they have the right and duty to collect money from venues.</font>


Indeed, Brian, and that hits the nail right on the head. This money is legally due to the PROs, from where it is distributed to the writers/publishers.

The "distribution" aspect -- and, heck, the manner of "collecting" the money, too -- are all administrative procedures. They are the methods of implementing the legal (and IMO moral) requirements.

The adminstrative methods can, and should, evolve as time goes on. But the basic legal/moral requirement has existed for as long as copyright itself has existed.

(And the power to grant copyrights is specifically mentioned in the U.S. Constitution.....)

--- Ed




------------------
http://www.edperrone.com/music/index.shtml
http://edperrone.rideonmusic.com

#145241 - 04/10/04 10:21 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
Joined: Aug 2003
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EdPerrone Offline
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EdPerrone  Offline
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Mt. Pleasant, TX
Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TrumanCoyote:
I believe the record company DOES pay, not the performer.

</font>


The record company may make the actual payment, but I suspect that amount is then one of the charges that is deducted from the performer's royalties.

--- Ed


------------------
http://www.edperrone.com/music/index.shtml
http://edperrone.rideonmusic.com

#145242 - 04/10/04 10:46 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 191
Harry J Offline
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Harry J  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 191
Quote
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Graham:

Harry. A busker is, in general terms, a street performer, who works anywhere, hoping to get a few coins thrown at them.
Some pretty well known names have done it from time to time.
Graham


</font>


I figured from the context that's what it was, but that's a new one for me. We don't have many street performers round these parts. Although, I've been known to sing a few out on the beach.

Thanks Graham!

Harry

#145243 - 04/10/04 10:55 PM Re: ASCAP Puts the Screws to the "Little Guys"  
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,292
scottandrew Offline
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,292
Hey sechman, if you're concerned about more small venues discontinuing live music and losing places to play, why not mobilize your local community to help?

Maybe you could throw a benefit concert to raise the money to pay the license fee. Get a bunch of local artists involved. If there's only a few places to play in town, then it might be worth it to help them stay open. It'd be really good for your relationship with the cafe, too.

I'm not saying we should do this for everyone. If the owner knowingly books cover bands and brings in thousands of dollars in business, and then refuses to pay PRO fees, well, he's a jerk.

But if you think there's a legitimate risk in losing a venue because they have low overhead and can't pay that kind of cash, get a bunch of friends and hold a concert. Or a bake sale (I'm serious!). Or try to get local arts funding or something. Get creative!

This admittedly doesn't fix the larger problem between PROs and venues, but it may help YOUR local situation directly.

------------------
Scott Andrew and the Walkingbirds
Lo-fi DIY acoustic pop
Hear it: http://www.scottandrew.com/main/music

[This message has been edited by scottandrew (edited 04-10-2004).]

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