JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Solicitations by music publishers

I have just recently begun submitting songs to publishers. In one instance, I submitted a demo after seeking permission to do so. Once the publisher received my submission package, they responded quickly (with my SASE, of course). They said they couldn't use my work, although I was talented, and I might consider whether I needed more production in my demo. They of course provide demo production service.

They were not asking for money to publish songs, like song sharks. However, I am more than a little concerned that my work might have been solicited only so this publisher could turn around and try to solicit my business, and on my dime, too! Does this happen frequently? Would appreciate your comments. Thanks

This is a common occurence....I used to receive these kinds of come ons every time I copyrighted something at the library of congress. There are alot of webpages that
offer suggestions for various info about
publishing- check out www.cdbaby.com for starters...info pages.......some one told me
all that glitters is not gold....don't be discouraged.....this is hard work and dues paying. Have a great day! Freddie
http://www.rosesforkitty.com

SONG SHARK!

Get your attention? Good. A legit publisher who thinks your song has any real potential will demo the song again at their expense.. not yours. (They'll get re-compensated once the song is cut...). I would run the other way when a published responds to you that you need a better demo AND they'll do it (or hook you up directly with someone.) I would NEVER take that offer. They may be correct, it may need a better demo. But they are also saying they don't believe in the work enough to demo it themselves, meaning once that shiny new demo is done and your money is in their pocket.. you aren't going to get a deal of any kind.

Brian

Thank freddiea & Brian! This particular song publisher was listed in "Songwriters Market 2002" so I was a little surprised at their solicitation. In light of what Brian wrote, I feel that their action is particularly reprehensible -- making a songwriter go to the time and expense of submitting work AFTER the songwriter first seeks permission to do so, then responding by trying to solicit demo business. I will contact SM 2002 and make them aware of this action. I hope other readers will respond to my original message.

Yep! I ran into one of those, too. Got the publisher from one of my tipsheets no less. I keep a card file on all publishers I submit to, what I submitted, and what the response was. I scratched that publisher immediately.....as should you.

Sunny

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http://artists2.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Sharon_Longworth/

The name Jimmy Walton comes to mind. I believe he's located in Nashville, advertises as a publisher, comes back with a demo service. Mr. Whitney's correct, "run the other way."

Regards, Tj

Thanks, TJ, I'll watch out for that name.

The outfit that tried to solicit me was also in Nashville. Has anyone else had particular problems with Nashville companies? Like to hear what you say.

thanks all.

The company that tried this tactic with me was TOWER MUSIC GROUP out of Nashville. They actually wrote me a letter saying that they wanted to talk about my future in the business. When I called them it was the same story, "Your Demo could be better and we will do it for you at a cost of XXXX to you."
I told them that if they liked my music that they should pay those cost, he started to fudge around then insult me saying that I was obviously not serious about it. Long story short, he got nothing from me except a report to the BBB in Nashville.

Thanks for indentifying the company. I have sent Tower Music Group songs since 1993 and in fact signed my first publishing contract with them that year. I have sent them pro demos and working tapes mostly from tip sheets when they were asking for songs for a specific artist. At no time did they ever indicate they wanted to "sell" me a demo. They are a legitimate company as far as I can tell. Basically they produce artists and do seek songs for those artists sometimes thru tip sheets. They do have a web site. maybe www.castlerecords.com. If they indicated you may want to get a better demo done I think it was just helpful advice. No doubt the better you apply yourself, at anything, the better chance you will have at being sucessful. When I send out a submission it looks as good as I can make it. It does cost but you have to pay somewhere. You just have to decide where to spend the money. As time goes by I do have pro demos done but still send working tapes until that time. Good Luck. RES.

Ray,

In my opinion, it is NEVER appropriate for a published soliciting for songs for a project to reply with a sales pitch to upgrade your demo. You want your publisher to be in the publishing business.. not the demo business. And if they say "we'll set you up with someone who does demos" it's usually the same story. It's either them, or their buddy's and they get a cut. It's a very old scam in Nashville, where it is the most rampant, but happens everywhere. Legit publishers either arrange for demos at their expense OR they give writers a demo budget and let them take care of it. Either the song can cut it or not. A better demo doesn't make a weak song cut ready, no matter how much you spend or how well the production is done. No matter how much you polish a turd.. it's still a turd.

Brian

I agree that a songwriter should always take care of having demos done when ready, not a publishing company unless the publishing company is signing the song and doing it at their expense. Publishing contracts vary but some publishing companies will take the cost of the demo out of royalities if the song is a success. It will be stated in the contract if so. Also some publishing companies will require a songwriter to pay for the cost of the demo if the songwriter asks for the song back at some time.

A couple of things that could be added to this board is a list of demo services and a list of tip sheets.

As a further note, many times a songwriter will submit songs that are no way near ready to be recorded. I work with a local publisher and most of the stuff he receives is junk to put it mildly. So I will repeat that music is a business and both ends of the sprectum has to be as professional as possible. Yes there are scam artists out there, in all walks of life, and it pays to keep your eyes open. RES.

I haven't had an experience like this but every publisher that attempts this should be reported to the BBB, investigated, put out of business and be forced to pay for the investigation.

How is it that there are so many companies able to prey on people's dreams. Can we get an investigative team together for all "dream squashers."

So glad to have this site - very informative. It's a dog eat dog world.

Debbie

Hi, I had the same experience with Tower Music. The same "Your sound is very interesting, but you need a good demo. Please fork up $4000.00." And certainly, the demo I sent was a piece of crud. I would have to say that is really is a very good idea to send the very best demo you can. You come to a publisher as an unknown quantity and the easier you make it for them to shop your songs, the more they will be inclined towards taking you on. I really believe your chances are much better if you go in there with a great quality, ready to shop demo than with one that needs to be redemoed - even if the song is very good. my two cent, BDK

I completely agree with JPF's founder, Brian.

Whether anybody "thinks" they are legit or not, I am of the thinking: NO LEGIT PUBLISHING COMPANY WORTH GETTING INVOLVED WITH "EVER" ASKS FOR MONEY FROM A SONGWRITER! PERIOD. NO EXCEPTIONS! I am to believe through time that they take their loss or gain by "their" publishing decissions. The songs being sent or presented to real current artists/labels are demos they either paid for, or a demo that came in to them already up to their standards and that will "sell that song" to the artist/label, ("sell" not meaning the actual sale of course).

That is a standard rule of thumb in the business for many, many years. THAT, I am pretty sure of.

About "Songwriter's Market": Who ever said this was a book with ALL good people? We got an indie record promoter from there, "Loggins Promotions", that in our opinion, lead us down a known dead end path, all for money. WE are to blame also, for not fully knowing that end of the business, (radio). But just because a company is listed "anywhere" doesn't make them the golden boys of goodness with your needs in mind. Books are there to make a profit, and will list anyone who returns the forms, until they find out they are not legit, (hopefully the case). We wrote the editor after our experience, and were just told to "buy the current version" to find someone else. WHAT? "That" Book? Yep! That editor missed the whole point of us NOT needing another record promoter that can't help a NON BAND songwriting team!

When you want things to happen really bad, and you do, you almost go for anything. DON'T! Don't go for nice things said about you. Don't go for any contract until you've had a recongized and often-used-by-the- mainstream-music-business-attorney, go over it all. ASCAP and BMI could probably recommend some.

AND PLEASE: Learn the correct and usual business ways of the "actual" music business, BEFORE sending demos to "anybody", for any reason. Then, you'll have a complete business plan of do's and don'ts, and will not make the MAJOR mistakes. Little ones, sure, but it won't wipe you out, money or mental wise.

John


[This message has been edited by dhsongs (edited 03-08-2002).]

Thanks John, and Everyone!

Especially thank you for the "heads up" concerning Loggins Productions -- I had gotten permission to submit to them, and I hadn't done it yet. Now I think I'll save myself a few bucks and not submit to them.

Brian, this is a great website -- thanks.

Hi folks-

I don't understand this issue of 'quality' demos.
I've always been under the impression that the song is the thing. In fact, and I think it was in the book, "If They Ask You...You Can Write A Song", (not sure of the authors because I lent out the book years ago),(but maybe not in that book), where they stated that a songwriter did not need to spend a lot of money on demos. They recommended a clear, home recording of a non-stylized vocal and simple instrumentation. Thus, the producer (or whoever) could imagine his own arrangement and singer for the subject song.
I recall Eddie Raven talking about the demo for 'Sooner or Later'. He quipped that the person who did the demo should have been shot for it's poor quality! Yet, he liked the song and recorded it. (And, somehow that demo made it into his hands!)
So- is spending big bucks on home recording equipment or studio time REALLY necessary?
I'd like to think that a quality song stands on it's own- and no matter how it's demo sounds, it will find success. Maybe not, eh?

MH

MHF Air and others - thanks for the response.

On the issue of "quality demos" -- A couple of careers ago I worked in a video studio which of course also involves audio. The criteria for a quality technical recording was that it should be clean, noise free, and convey the information without any non-information distractions. The goal was to make a KISS production -- Keep It Simple, Stupid. A quality, professional recording need not be confused with a major production. It just needs to allow the material to shine through. I would always opt for that kind of "quality demo." Looking forward to your comments.

My husband and I are publishers from Denver, with a home in Nashville. We get lots and lots of submissions from writers from all over. (I sound very technical, don't I:--)) In any case, when we receive tapes or CDs, we listn to the songs, and truly, that's what it's all about, the songs. After listening, we'll talk with the writer, tell him/her what works, what needs work, and what really doesn't work at all. Another point to remember here, is that this is OUR opinion. Even though a writer's music might not work for us, that doesn't mean that we're the be-all-and-end-all. Keep shopping. In any case, when we sign a writer, we discuss his/her songs. We might feel that a particular song needs a fuller demo, mind you I didn't say a BETTER demo. If we do, we pay for the demo. When the song gets cut, we get paid back half the cost of the demo before the writer gets paid any of his/her cut. Our writers are not paid a draw, and they DO NOT pay us for demos. As someone posted, it is about the song. Find a publisher who believes in your music and you. Really, there are publishers like that out there.

Quality "will" count more times than not, so why not at least try for a close, if not radio ready production, to encourage the reviewer to keep listening? I don't mean to over do it like Phil Spector would, or like how we do it sometimes, (by thinking we're a band).

I saw a show where Marie Osmond went to a publisher's office in Nashville, and was played a LOT of songs. She was saying things like "that sounds great,, play that again", or if it was not of her style for her upcoming album, she would say something like, "No, wrong feel for what I want". ("Feel")! Of course subject matter mattered! BUT ALL of the songs I heard over my decent TV system sounded "very" pro like. It sounded as if all the demos were produced the same way, which was just about radio ready, if not radio ready. They were all from cassettes too, but this was a few or more years ago. And NONE had a bad mix, or a thin vocal, or where the drums were buried, or anything out of place! They all were like hits! I was amazed at some of the really songs that she turned down! And all had polish to them, with the violins, pedal steel, and guitars doing some great playing, in and around the lead vocal, and the drums having a great affect on the "song". It's "encouragement", this quality. It's also knowing what the song calls for, to be well rounded,,,,,likeable,,,loveable.

So, for that publisher anyway, he didn't present anything that wasn't top notch in all aspects, no matter if a slow song, or an
a-kicker. Him, and other top and probably middle level publishers will demand a quality product to present to their demanding artist. It comes down to Pros wanting to present a Pro product. They want to get as many songs cut as possible, so it makes sense to present quality, (radio "sounding" hits).

A good song can also "not" find "many ways" in which to get an opportunity. We hear of one or two stories about a bad demo with a good song, but I don't really think that's the norm. "Good Songs" are easy to write for most writers when they're in their zone. And there are TONS of good writers in this world. Ask Brian how many are here! So, that's tons of songs being heard by publishers! You NEED to be good at all phases of the demo to be even considered these days.

And, with today's home recording gear, the quality of the demo, (to show you are a pro too), can be closer to that of studios. If you have the talent for adding strings or whatever to actually have them BE an important part of the song, do it. I don't mean "just add things" because all there is so far are piano, bass and drums, but when they are in your head as much as the lyric and melody, that third entity of feelings that can happen from well placed added instruments can help the overall presentation of the song. Just don't be Phil Spector,,,not yet anyway! Save that until the girls big hair flips comes back.

John

June,

Thanks for chiming in. It is nice to have a legit publisher here to counter all the bad ones out there.

As for Demo quality, it depends on what you are doing. There are 2 options:

1. A perfectly crafted arrangement with a perfect performance and recording. Very expensive to do, and best left to publishers who are paying for it themselves to pitch to a major artist or representative who needs to hear the production.

2. A great straight forward vocal performance with a great straight forward instrument performance on Piano or Guitar. Very inexpensive to do.

There is NEVER NEVER NEVER room for a badly recorded, out of tune singer, badly botched instrument performance or heaven forbid a lousy mix of a bunch of keyboard sounds simply because you want to add to it.

We're getting nearly 100,000 songs this year for the Just Plain Folks Music Awards (the entries are still pouring in from around the world...). I've screened 1500 CD's already this year from these entries already (listening nearly around the clock since November.) I've gotten master quality recordings of bad songs. I've gotten incredibly bad recordings of bad songs. So far, what I haven't found is a really bad recording of a really outstanding song. Is it possible? Sure. But when you're listening to world class writing combined with world class recordings OR extremely well done simple instrument/vocal performances, the odds of a badly done song surpassing these amazingly well done songs aren't very good. You have to remember that there are 10's of thousands of great songs written every year. If your song is written at say a 95% level but recorded at a 10% level how will it compete with a song that is written at a 95% level and recorded at a 95% level as well? Answer? It won't.

I'd estimate that I have heard about 15% of the music so far that was recorded at a 10% or lower level out of 100.

Another response to the info above: NEVER.. I repeat NEVER spend $4000 to record a song unless you are a multi-millionaire major label superstar artist doing a follow up recording of your triple platinum release. And even then you probably don't need to spend that much (though most of them do.)

A great, fantastic, top notch, A Session player demo can be had for about 10-15% of that in Nashville with the right contacts and research. Very capable demos with simple instrument/vocal can be had for a couple hundred dollars. One of my favorite CD's from a couple year's ago was recorded with a total budget of $4000 for 13 songs. And it was a release that the artists sold nearly $10,000 worth and it financed that album and most of their second.

As for Johns comments on Marie Osmond.. I saw that as well. it was quite a few years ago. Those demos were recut by the publishers with the regular roster of A Session players and AT THE PUBLISHERS expense. A songwriter demo (i.e. the demo to the publisher, not the one the artist ever hears) need only be that simple instrument/vocal recorded and performed meticulously.

Be careful out there. As John suggested, 2 songwriters who do not perform are rarely, if ever going to have any chance of real money earning airplay. It COULD happen.. but you can win the lottery to. I doubt you'll spend 10K on tickets next week though. It's all about bothering to LEARN what the heck you are doing before writing checks for someone who says they do and can act and think for you.

There's no shortcuts. Always check references. Always get second and third and fourth opinions before spending your money. Play the CD's of great independent artist to hear the bare minimum you are competiting with. If you don't blow them away, you aren't likely going to blow away a major label if that is what you are shooting for. If you are shooting for smaller opportunities, (good for you!), then you still need to sound better than your peers to rise to the top. You need to write better, produce better recordings, present yourself better as an artist and be more professional. Otherwise, you'll likely fall short of your goal. Knowledge and awareness of reality are the starting points.

Good luck!

Brian

Brian---
Great points!!! There's nothing harder to do than listen to a demo of a writer who's wanting so much to get his/her song across, but the product, even in demo form, just isn't there. You can do wonderful piano/vocal or guitar/vocal demos for a reasonable rate, and get the song pitched and ultimately cut. Another thing that we have learned, is that it's good to use different vocalists on your demos. Switch the vocals up some to get a better varience in your demos. Sometimes using the same voice all the time makes all your songs sound the same. There are a number of vocalists out there looking for the chance to get studio time in for experience, and you can work out mutually beneficial situations. The song Tricia Yearwood sang at the CMAs was pitched as just a piano/vocal demo. Consequently she primarily kept it that way at the CMAs. Good Luck out there!!!

Yes! Good points and information!

And that explains why all those demos I heard from the Marie Osmond show sounded all pro, They were! Thanks for that insight. It does put a different light on my comments then, and gives hope that if we, (or anybody), go back and redo some songs in a simple manner we might get stand even a better chance of! I should probably become a producer, rather than a songwriter. Buddy too. We hear all these parts in our songs that feels like they HAVE to be in there. But that does limit what the publisher might have in mind for any given song though.

Yes! Thanks for that insight! I think I will go back and remix some songs with having just the basic tracks, and see if the songs can stand up on their own.

LOL!!! I've remixed some songs a hundred times already, and there's a running joke about that among some of my music friends around here! But this time, it's for a better reason. When I do some, will anyone be interested in hearing the simplier versions?


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John Daubert,
Daubert & Holcombe
D&H Records/Publishing, ASCAP
www.mp3.com/dhsongs