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#1178354 07/07/21 08:30 PM
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I need to think of better titles for these....


Sugar Ray Robinson, many believe, was pound for pound, the greatest prize fighter who ever lived. He won two world titles, Welterweight and Middleweight.
In his autobiography, he recalled being approached by organized crime figures to “fix” bouts. Such bout fixing was lucrative and common. (See Jake LaMotta and Billy Fox)
Robinson turned them down.
In 1952, Robinson fought Joey Maxim at Yankee Stadium for the Light Heavyweight title. If he had won, that would have given Robinson three titles, like his hero, Henry Armstrong.
The temperature reached 103 degrees in the ring. Although ahead on points, Robinson collapsed in the 13th round, losing by a TKO. It has been over forty years since I read his autobiography, but I recall him implying the fight was fixed. He had no smoking gun but one piece of evidence he offered was that he was not given salt pills between rounds, implicating his own trainer and manager.
There was a palpable sense of bitterness in Ray’s account.


Many share that bitterness when they feel a contest has been lost unfairly.
Sports.
Awards.
I remember scratching my head when Shakespeare in Love beat Saving Private Ryan for Best Picture. Rumor had it Harvey Weinstein was an unethical Oscar campaigner.
A shocker.

Elections.
Since governmental elections began, people have complained that they are “rigged”. And many (if not all) have been.
But not in the way you might think.

The Bible reveals how.
In Matt. 4:8-10, Satan tempts Jesus by showing him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, then offering them to Jesus in return for an act of worship.
Jesus refused, saying only God is worthy of worship. Yet, although Satan is “…a liar and the father of lies” (John 8:44), Jesus does not deny that the world’s kingdoms were Satan’s to offer.

The Bible again pulls back the curtain in Daniel chapter 10. In vss. 12, 13 and 20, 21, the kingdoms of Persia and Greece are said to be represented by evil “spirit princes” who do battle with the archangel Michael.
Later, in Ephesians 6:12, the Apostle Paul wrote this: “For we are not fighting against flesh and blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.”

Have you ever noticed that no matter who wins an election, in the long run, it’s one step up and two steps back? And that’s not counting the harm done to citizens by hermit kingdoms and military dictatorships.
Remember that scene in JFK, with the shadowy conspirators in the dark room filled with cigar smoke?
That scene is true. It just takes place, as Paul wrote, among evil spirits in unseen places. The fix is in, regardless of the winner. This may be one of the many reasons Jesus told Pilate, “…my kingdom is not of this world.” (John 18:36)

While God is in control of all things, including governments (Romans 13:1,2), it seems apparent that he allows Satan and his fallen angels much influence over them.
For now.

The history of man governing himself testifies to this. Some are better than others. (Far better) But even they crumble and decay. Inevitably. There is no shortage of politicians who do not keep their promises or who change their policies on a whim.

Yet, we are not abandoned to a vacuum of leadership without hope. We are given this everlasting assurance in Hebrews 13:8, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever”.
For this reason, his kingdom is the only sure remedy for the ills that have plagued mankind since the beginning of history.




All scripture quotations are from the New Living Translation.






Last edited by couchgrouch; 07/08/21 12:39 AM.

Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
couchgrouch #1178398 07/09/21 12:30 PM
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The only thing we have control of is ourselves. The only stretch of time that we have control of is today. Our goals (Physical, Mental, Emotional, and Spiritual) only come to fruition if we take daily actions toward each. Your excellent contribution echoes Christ's teachings that we are to center our focus on ourselves, overcoming our own flaws and weaknesses, not judging others for theirs, and keeping our daily steps forward on that strait and narrow path to the kingdom of God. Inviting others to do the same within our sphere of influence is how we become disciples of Christ and have the joys of his kingdom within us.

couchgrouch #1178399 07/09/21 01:27 PM
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Yet Perry, Some Christians believe none of what you do matters, you're saved anyway. How many supposedly "saved" christians actually do anything differently in their life, other than claim they are saved.

CG it's a good comparison and piece, Biggest rigged game ive ever seen was in college football. Team up 59-7, they receive a punt for basicly to run out the clock and go home. Kid runs it back for a TD, now its 65-7, the total in vegas was 72 1/2, an extra point puts the game over, but the coach decides to go for TWO! up 65-7 with 10 second left, they go for two, and MISS, on a terrible try. Game stays under 72 12. It was almost as if nobody wanted that last Touchdown to happen, so they made sure the extra point wasnt happening.

There's many examples.

Good point everything is rigged, another point is rigged is in the eye of the beholder. When Dems win its rigged, when Repubs win its legit, and vica versa.

And I agree, No matter who is president NOTHING changes, they ALL do NOTHING.

My only concern is that the BIble is rigged. Nobody has considered that, I hope not.

couchgrouch #1178401 07/09/21 02:41 PM
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I've seen no evidence the Bible is rigged. One thing in its favor (which I've mentioned before) is its honesty in revealing the faults of its major characters. This is completely the opposite of how human institutions deal with their leaders as shown by the modern media and its treatment of politicians it approves of.

There's more on that in my previous article. I think.

Ps...that information isn't in the article I already posted but I did write one addressing it. I'll post it another time. I may have posted it in that Prophecy thread.


Thanks, Perry. smile

Last edited by couchgrouch; 07/09/21 03:27 PM.

Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
couchgrouch #1178405 07/09/21 03:44 PM
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I also do not believe the Bible is rigged.

Don't think it's the absolute word of God or absolute truth, but it is absolute proof of what those followers, the recorded prophets and messengers who believe in the One God of Abraham, thought about in trying to understand how mankind could follow what they understood to be God's Will On Earth.

This required thoughtful living, questions, learning, understanding, and seeking inspiration in words written before their times, and what was happening in their own.

If you take a bigger picture snapshot there are various sections in it, the most basic being Old and New Testament, but within this you have psalms, "the Book of" four Gospels. It is a book that has been assembled and grown over time in different eras

Its biggest picture is a book that is as old as the followers of The One God of Abraham who have been recording their thoughts about how to live their lives according to His Will

It lives today in physical and electronic form in print and cyberspace and in the minds of followers

What is "rigged" is how it is applied and used and exherted. Bible meet fallible mankind

Some use the Bible as a hammer of God. Thankfully the majority do not

Couch thank you for another contribution in your continuing series.


Oh and Perry, your post can be summed up in a Dutch expression that says "verbeter the weerld, begin met je eigen" "if you want to make the world a better place, start with yourself" It was instilled into me as a kid. It was used as a rebuke sometimes, as in a situation where you might complain about someone else's action




If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

couchgrouch #1178407 07/09/21 03:58 PM
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The Bible Gospels were written 70 AD, Jesus died some 40 years before that. How do you see no evidence of it?

John, if you dont believe The Bible is the word of God, then you are trusting that uneducated peasants, had such good memories, they could remember every detail of a story 70 years after it happened. Cause the only way it could be true and accurate, is if God wrote it himself.

And people study these writings as if they are clear indicators as to what happened.

Early Christians wanted to start a new religion. There are other writings that were removed from the Bible, so as to not be seen as a conflict to the template. https://listverse.com/2017/07/20/top-10-gospels-you-wont-find-in-the-bible/

WHo has the right to decide what goes in The Bible and what doesnt? And we must accept what they deemed important.

Early Christians were war Mongrols and killed in the name of Jesus.

Not that The Bible is rigged per se, but the people trying to start a religion may have rigged it to only show what they wanted, needed to start their movement.



Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/09/21 03:59 PM.
couchgrouch #1178411 07/09/21 05:49 PM
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Hi, John. I'll try to be brief and clear.

It's true most of the Bible was written by the descendants of Abraham. (Some say Luke was a Gentile based on, I think, Colossians ch. 4).

Nevertheless, its scope is far beyond what any man could write. I was known for foreshadowing in my lyrics and poetry but the Bible makes me look like a worm.

Just two examples.

1. The thread of the "seed" that would destroy Satan.
Genesis 3:15, Genesis 12:1-3, Genesis 22-15-18, (Abraham's seed) Genesis 49:10, (through the tribe of Judah) 2nd Samuel 7:12, 13. (In the line of David)
Matthew 1:1, Romans 1:2-5.

There is no way the guy who wrote Genesis (Moses)
could have foreseen all that.

Similarly...

2. The passover Lamb instituted 1500BC (Exodus 12) foreshadowed Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. (John 1:29).

Only Yahweh who "...declares the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying my counsel will stand and I will do all my pleasure."

Also, much of the Bible is a record of the Jews disobeying God and being punished by Him. It's unlikely they would write that of their own accord. Especially since Jesus and the Apostles reveal that Gentiles were to be brought into the Church as equals with Jews. ( See again Romans 1:2-5).

I'll post something further on this in a week or two.


FD, three of the Gospels were written prior to 70AD, John was written toward the end of the century. Matthew was an eyewitness, so was John. Mark quite possibly was and was probably instructed by Peter, an eyewitness. Luke was a relentless researcher who interviewed eyewitnesses and traced many details himself with accuracy. (See the opening vss. of Luke and Acts, especially Luke 3:1, 2)

The books allegedly "left out" of the Bible were done so because they were obvious forgeries. I've got many of them in my library. A few are worthwhile
such as 1st Clement and the Marytrydom of Polycarp. They have historical value but they don't bear the traits of God's inspiration crucial to being regarded as Scripture. (2 Timothy 3: 16, 17).

I suspect you just want to argue, as is your nature. Your position has no merit. The Gospels being written circa 70AD have no bearing on whether they are "rigged". Few make that argument about Mark Lewison's biography of The Beatles.

The Bible, begun by Moses in 1500BC and completed by the Apostle John near the end of the 1st century displays all the internal harmony, human nature, honesty, history and spiritual treasures to be rightly regarded as the inspired word of Almighty God

Last edited by couchgrouch; 07/09/21 05:52 PM.

Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
couchgrouch #1178412 07/09/21 06:10 PM
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No proof Moses even existed. It's not wanting to argue. I went to Catholic School, and have struggled with belief probably since I wa Twenty, i didnt question much before then even though i thought how impossible and unikely it was, somebody was always there...

If I thought you were on to something, id be behind you, but you offer nothing but Gospel quotes. Cause I wish I could believe so easily, as i did as a child.

No merit? Please dude, that's embarrassing, The number of years is not even the issue, OBVIOUS FORGERIES LOL

SO people you dont know, from thousands of years ago, wrote 4 books, and because those 4 books have been around a long time, they MUST be the only books there are. ANd everything else is a obvious forgery. Prove that the four are NOT forgeries?

Hate to break it to you but Matthew didnt even write Matthew.... so he couldnt be an eyewitness
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Matthew I know, only your reference matter.


Regardless of how many years, can you honestly think this was exactly what was said? Who was sitting there writing this down?

3Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the Earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be satisfied.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.
11Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

couchgrouch #1178417 07/09/21 06:57 PM
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We went through this a couple of months ago. Moses' life is better attested to than Socrates'. At least Moses has writings to his name that were quoted and followed by near contemporaries.


In Luke 16 Jesus told a parable directed at those whose unbelief would stubbornly remain even if someone was raised from the dead.

True enough.

In Mark 10:15 He said that unless a person received the Kingdom of God like a child, they wouldn't enter into it.

I've provided more than enough evidence in the Bible's behalf. It strikes me as odd that you could revere a peddler of such simplistic, repetitious songs as Bruce Springsteen and not be impressed by Ecclesiastes. Imagine that book in its original language.

But the Christian faith isn't for everyone.


Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
couchgrouch #1178424 07/09/21 11:30 PM
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first of all, you’re out of you mind if you think Moses is more attested than Socrates, we have a bust of his head we know what he looked like and have a biography for him. Secondly, you claim to b a Springsteen fan, then you make disparaging
remarks about his work, that’s ok you blasted Clapton and VH

What is amazing to me is you claiming to be Christian. You have been nothing but mean and unsupportive to most people on this forum, you praise your own writing as Godlike and nobody comes close to you

I can see Bruce I can hear his work, just as I dont
worship st
Francis. I Can draw great inspiration from him his music means a lot to me, and gen if I don’t like his political sidelines

But liking music and wanting the truth in religion are so far apart and I can only surmise that you somehow think you can use my support of a musician against me in a debate

Only God knows, and you are not HIM

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/09/21 11:35 PM.
couchgrouch #1178425 07/09/21 11:51 PM
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I've got a bust of Snoopy on my dresser.

We have Moses' extensive writings, plus the testimony of his contemporaries such as Joshua. We may disagree on what the word "proof" means and the evidence necessary to believe in the existence of someone from antiquity.

Bruce had his day and that day was short-lived while his career has turned him into the musical version of
the Simpsons.

You'd be hard-pressed to find me saying anything negative about anyone's work in the last six months.
And most of what I said before that was true, if bluntly stated.

I also haven't said anything political. I feel a little bad about saying what I did about Springsteen but it was a point that had to be made. Most of the Bible is beautifully written literature. Historical and spiritual. That's why I made the comparison. The Song of Solomon is as far above Cautious Man as the Pleiades are above Death Valley.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 07/10/21 12:18 AM.

Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
couchgrouch #1178426 07/10/21 12:21 AM
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So your snoopy bust was based on something that was published, had been seen, the world knows who snoopy is.

Socrates has published works, a veritable place of work veriafiable students he taught, stop, seriously

you said what you said about Bruce, I don’t fault anybody from having an opinion, I don’t care if you say he sucks I know better, so does every country songwriter worth their salt. And most importantly, itf he sucks, what do you do?

Lol. I see so you’ve changed in a few months.

You don’t seem to get that when somebody compliments you, they expect a look at their work and I cringe knowing you’re never going to give it back.

He had his day…. For a songwriter to comment like that. Well whatever

Did you know there’s more proof Springsteen being g the greatest songwriter ever than there is Jesus lived?


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/10/21 12:27 AM.
couchgrouch #1178427 07/10/21 12:31 AM
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Socrates wrote nothing.


Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
couchgrouch #1178428 07/10/21 12:52 AM
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Ok he didn’t write…. But he did teach, and we know what he looked like, and Moses looked like? Jesus ?

He also went to court documented as such and has books written on him, Moses ?

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/10/21 01:00 AM.
couchgrouch #1178429 07/10/21 02:42 AM
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couchgrouch #1178431 07/10/21 12:59 PM
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FD ...if you do just the basic research, you will find Couch is likely more informed than you in this area...and definitely more informed than me in what is in The Bible

1) Socrates wrote nothing...all was written by his students...Plato among them

2) That bust of Socrates is NOT his likeness. Scholars have determined that Greeks of his times did not go for realism but idealism...ideal representations

3) Still he definitely lived according to historians and his execution was chronicled


Then

1) Moses also lived according to those who wrote The Bible. You said I relied on uneducated peasants to tell us what was in The Bible, but you totally skipped what I said about its authors. Go back and read that part again

2) Your assumptions are based entirely on thinking that our ancestors were deficient in their abilities to think which is so entirely ignorant of history. Simply go back further in time to see what Sumerian civilization accomplished...why do we measure 60 minutes in an hour, 360 degrees in a circle, ....do you like your wheel...your beer...a law code? And how were the Pyramids built exactly?

Those who wrote The Bible were sophisticated thinkers trying to make sense of their world with what they knew...and they wrote words that were later read by others...in fact inspired them...and I do believe that it is more likely their way of trying to live according to The Will of God....so even if it wrote about punishment, the message was don't do THIS again. So even if I do not believe it is the LITERAL word of God surely it was inspired by BELIEF in God

3) Have you ever read anything about how civilizations kept their histories via oral traditions...like the Druids? Indigenous peoples? Do you know how they handed down their knowledge?? Do you know how long it took to be recognized as a Druid?? Do you know why Druids were hunted to close extinction by Rome?

BTW studies have been done about oral histories of people and they have been legitimized as accurate....peoples far apart have similar stories of events that could have reverberated around the world


Now, you can definitely have doubts....but I think if you examine things deeply, you will find that trying to deal with your own doubts by negating the faith of others is not a way to go. Be generous. Allow people to believe what they believe...in fact stand up for their right to believe what they believe. When you understand that your own beliefs are based on faith, you might go further to respect what others believe




If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

couchgrouch #1178460 07/11/21 12:46 PM
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He is misinformed claiming Matthew was an eyewitness he did t even write the book. And I went to college and studied western civ, teacher accepted Jesus lived and we treated him as a historical figure, nothing bout him being God

Moses was dismissed zero history of him. Glad you think couch is so intelligent though

couchgrouch #1178461 07/11/21 02:02 PM
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John I could show you an article from yesterday, claiming Trump ignored the pandemic, and a good number of people would say he didnt, and this was written yesterday... And bias come into EVERY history story, not one escapes it.

And You think oral traditions from 2000 years ago, are somehow perfect accurate depictions of every detail of Jesus life?

unless it was written by God himself, which some believe, then there is no way in HE double tooth pick its accurate, if any of it is true.

We dont even know what Christopher Columbus said when he sailed the 7 seas, he mighta said "Damn im one lucky fackin bastard ending up here, boy did i screw up"

And most historians DONT think he discovered America, in fact all of them know he didnt. But for years we believe dit.

Calling me ignorant for not believing something a stone age "scholar" wrote as PERFECT, im sorry is in itself woefully ignorant.

Nobody said people werent intelligent back then, there were absolute geniuses around, but Jesus followers were not. Neither was Jesus.

And it doesnt make me smart to dismiss something from 2000 years ago, We are just more knowledgeable now than they were then.

But they had some brilliant Doctors and other minds back then.... But they still couldnt cure many simple diseases, and thought Leprosy and epilipsey were Devil disease. They didnt know about bacteria and viruses, and brain chemistry

So its easy to seem smarter than those people, but its not a coincidence none of these miracles happen today.....

couchgrouch #1178462 07/11/21 02:06 PM
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LOL intelligence and being informed are not equal

And wrt Moses...maybe, just maybe (ok sarcasm) read the Book of Exodus....The Torah (AKA The 5 Books of Moses)....oh and of course the New Testament

Can't say anything about Matthew as my personal belief is a lot got massaged by later Christians as Christianity was "standardized" ...not saying things were made up, just that the Gospels were... let's say edited for errr mass consumption (yuk yuk) ...and some gospels were "thrown out" all together ie The Gnostic Gospels found in Egypt mid 20th century that taught things about Jesus that did not make into any standard texts





If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

couchgrouch #1178464 07/11/21 02:18 PM
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Jesus was curing people of Demonic Possesions, but in turn they had Epilepsy and Diseases like Leoprosy

Wouldnt you think Jesus, all knowing, God, Would say look folks...these lepers have an infection, THATS the cause, SATAN had nothing to do with it....

But he would say "leave him"

couchgrouch #1178466 07/11/21 02:32 PM
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Well you say oral tradition (which works for me as that IS how things were handed down in societies that had no writing...the use of abstract symbole to represent memories...) was recorded about 2000 years ago...(I believe that is what you meant)

But I expect that since writing was about 2000 years old when Moses lived (invented circa 3100 BC in Sumeria, a later in Egypt, Persia (did you know they invented the post office and had a "pony express??), Greece etc) , that a book as important as The Bible would have been written down by 2000 years ago...maybe at the time of Moses 1300 BC...and in the earliest instance oral traditions that were handed down were then written down....just as the Gospels were written down in their times

WRT to The Bible, that too was a living document in the sense that it was translated, updated, phrased in current vernacular (ie St James version) so lots of iopportunity to change words and perhaps even underlying ideas...but I expect the main themes made it through

And nowhere did I call you ignorant, and nowhere did I say The Bible was the perfect word of God. I said I believe it was written by thoughtful individuals inspired by their belief in God as a means to record how to live according to God's Will.

QUOTE "This required thoughtful living, questions, learning, understanding, and seeking inspiration in words written before their times, and what was happening in their own"

WRT to accomplishement, no one discovers anything without standing on the shoulders of others. We have today simply discovered more and our modern lives are such because of the accomplishments of historical figures. In the past, people were a superstitious lot because they had not yet understood their environment. As we learned more...and got past censors ...we became more sophisticated as a civilization.

And even that can be challenged as "civilization" is perhaps not an apt description when we take those two steps back.

As an aside but as an example of what I mean...just watched "How To Become A Tyrant" on Netflix...interesting ideas and I expect a veiled warning about the likes of Trump. You will like it I think.





If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

couchgrouch #1178467 07/11/21 02:38 PM
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Every history story ever written is riddled with Bias, Why The Bible wouldnt be.....? If I didnt believe In Jesus, id have some choice words to say, even back then.

Also, when you say if the bible was so important....

They didnt know they were writing a bible. the bible is a clerical collection of stories written. There are so many lost books, exactly the same kind of writings, that didnt make it passed the publishers desk.

The Bible was assembled, it didnt come with the wind and the ocean...






Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/11/21 02:39 PM.
couchgrouch #1178473 07/11/21 03:01 PM
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I'm thinking the Bible was very important because it wrote down HOW Jews should live according to what they believed was The Will of God

Christians really only know The Bible, but Rabbi's and Judaic scholars have added all kinds of commentary to it. All designed to show people how to live their lives.

It is the same with The Holy Quran. Lots and lots of commentary and scholarly work around it to act as a roadmap of life lived according to the Will of Allah --the One Shared God of Abraham

But I agree that the Bible was written and assembled and changed over time. Not for any nefarious purpose or anything...just because language itself evolved and things were translated from original Aramaic to allow folks like you and I to know what is in it, and allow folks like Couch, Tony, Everett etc to build their lives on it.

Still it ranks on the top of most list of the most influential books ever written...along with the Holy Quran.

So its authors might not have been consciously writing "The Bible" ..but that is what we call this book we inherited it from our ancestors


If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

couchgrouch #1178476 07/11/21 04:04 PM
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There is no question The Bible gave commentary on life as they knew it, but life as they knew it was... leprocy being caused by demons, and mental illness as well. They didnt know chemicals cause mental health problems, no more than what caused rain to fall.

Imagine a doctor telling you that your child is possessed by the devil, keep him away from everybody and dont allow him to interact without others, cause they may get possessed too.

Its actually tragic what people went through out of lack of knowledge.

It's a great book, still all time best seller, but people who study the bible, recite quotes as if those precise words were spoken.

Would have to be IMPOSSIBLE< and any of us today without recording devices would miss on a great deal of it...

couchgrouch #1178477 07/11/21 04:08 PM
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I'm not sure what the problem is with Matthew as FD's posts are disjointed and not very well informed, making the longer ones tempting to avoid.

Most of the NT was written before the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD and the synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) compiment each other very well, each sharing much of their material. Compare Matt 5 with Luke 6. The authors each had different aims. Matthew directed his Gospel at Jews, showing how Jesus fulfilled much of what was written by the prophets. Mark primarily wrote for Gentiles. Luke was a physician and he includes certain medical details the others do not.

What is important to modern authors was not necessarily important to them, such as strict adherence to chronology.

Of course, critics are going to come along and claim this or that. In the 60s some critics claimed Mick and Keith didn't write Satisfaction, Otis Redding did.
Professional bloviator Greil Marcus claimed Robbie Robertson's songs meant this or that in Mystery Train ( that book is nonsense). Robbie just shook his
head. People deduced by "clues" in Beatles' songs that Paul was dead.

And that's while the writers were still alive.

Hundreds of years later, critics can say what they want. They don't know anything.

There are hundreds of manuscripts of NT writings in Koine Greek, all agreeing with each other in content, many quite ancient. There is testimony from people who lived within decades of the authors. Documents such as 1st Clement mention the martyrdom of Peter and Paul and reference many NT works, proving they were already in wide circulation by the early 2nd century.

Read the Bible for yourself. It contains all the hallmarks of authenticity. If you believe it, you'll be compelled to change your life.

Which is why it has so many enemies.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 07/11/21 04:14 PM.

Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
couchgrouch #1178478 07/11/21 04:17 PM
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SO Matthew wrote it cause he said so? Or you said so? Columbus was credited with discovering America for hundreds of years, until reality came into the picture. Are historians wrong thet Columbus didnt discover America... My history professor said we used to go along with it cause we got the day off. Now we dont so we tell the truth...

Misinformed...lol You can only be misinformed as to what the bible SAYS, You cant be misinformed as to something being real or not.

If I said Santa Claus came on Easter and delivered chocolate eggs. id be misinformed about the story, but since Santa doesnt exist and he doesnt come any day, im not misinformed saying hes not real.

We believed it just as strongly as kids, but somebody then told us, they didnt with Religion.

But the only source you have is faith based bible quotes, you have nothing else to stand on.

Which is fine, I hope I see God some day, but i doubt you know more about him than I do.


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/11/21 04:20 PM.
couchgrouch #1178479 07/11/21 04:50 PM
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Your questions are answered in my post. Matthew wrote it because of testimony from near contemporaries.


Your thinking is muddled. You're no longer worth my time.


Ps I'm sorry you made a fool of yourself by claiming Socrates had written works. Now you're moving the goalposts, saying you want two dates on a tombstone. What's next? A birth certificate?

Your arguments are laughable.

Last edited by couchgrouch; 07/11/21 04:53 PM.

Nashville demos etc:

https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/default.cfm?bandID=431939

other demos:

https://soundcloud.com/wabash-cannibal

Amazon Kindle books by Robert George you may enjoy:

1) Americana

2) Teenage Graceland

3) The Will to Be

4) Fort Mystery

5) Wheel Sea

6) My One True Love
couchgrouch #1178480 07/11/21 04:50 PM
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I cant find a similar page for Moses, we have a birth date for and death date for Socrates
https://www.history.com/topics/ancient-history/socrates

couchgrouch #1178481 07/11/21 05:11 PM
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Oh I embarrassed myself.... I misspoke on one point, and admitted it, you on the other hand asserted that Moses was more attested than Socrates, but offered no proof

Shewww you whiffed on that, right up there were your assertion that Eddie Van Halen ruined rock guitar...oh no doubt youve had some gems....

LMAOOOOOOOOO

I too am done...

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/11/21 09:36 PM.
couchgrouch #1178483 07/11/21 05:26 PM
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Tee Heeeee. But the whole article kind of explains what I have been trying to articulate, OT Bible stories are made up stories to explain the unexplainable, and I had a Theology teacher who said as much. Its just the literalness of the writings that some people have.... missin it... https://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/nov/30/moses-man-versus-myth-ridley-scott

But the problem with historical evidence goes much deeper. “Moses himself has about as much historic reality as King Arthur,” British archaeologist Philip Davies famously concluded. A more moderate conclusion comes from the historian Tom Holland: “The likelihood that the biblical story records an actual event is fairly small.”

Cyprian Broodbank, the Disney professor of archaeology at Cambridge University, wrote in his recent history of the Mediterranean that the exodus was “at best a refracted folk memory of earlier expulsions of Levantine people” following the reconquest of the Nile delta by the Egyptian king Ahmose around 1530BC.

This date is about 900 years earlier than the period in which the Hebrew Bible is supposed to have been codified and written down, including its first five books that were supposedly written by Moses himself. There is no archaeological evidence for the biblical story, and certainly no extra-biblical evidence, in Egyptian inscriptions. Not even the Bible account claims that the Israelites were employed as slaves to build the pyramids as they are in Hollywood. They are simply slaves.


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/11/21 05:30 PM.
couchgrouch #1178485 07/11/21 08:58 PM
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