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#1174600 - 03/07/21 08:28 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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#1174602 - 03/07/21 08:55 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
It seems EZ bass is best used as a virtual instrument. I guess im gonna invest in a midi controller so I can use the play functions like slides .
I think the mistake was assuming the presets would be good enough. Gonna have to play it. It does sound great however you get there
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbfovHA23xs


You think? Is that why it is classified as a VST plug-gin? "Virtual Studio Technology." So...that whole midi thing has something to do with all that? Who knew?

In other news...the video that you found is the best that I have seem on EZB. I had no knowledge of all the triggers. They are more of a fascination for me than applicable because I will likely never need to use that level of sophistication for my stuff. Though, I'm going to give a go with the harmonics function on my current song.

Nonetheless...really great information. Nice to get such a well done video glimpse of the programs capacity. Great find. Thanks for posting.

Marty

#1174603 - 03/07/21 08:57 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: JAPOV]  
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There is a cancer warning on that ad. How can you get cancer from a bass guitar?

#1174604 - 03/07/21 09:18 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Marty, but the advertising...of EZBass is that it's patterns are song ready, much like drums are. Seems with drums, you get a chitload of patterns, then buy an expansion pack, you then get a completely different drum sound, PLUS more patterns. Its just not gonna be a problem. WIth Piano and Bass you could buy as many packs as you want, you will still have a hard time finding your feel

I initially thought it be a matter of finding a preset and then editing a bit. But the alternatives are creating a bass line in the grid editor, or playing it on guitar, converting to midi, or playing it on midi controller

I think Japovs bass went over Martys head. You could buy a bass though, and then face many challenges getting a good sound with it, then you need the right pre, the right software emulator, or buy a bass amp. But there are many ways to skin the cat

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/07/21 09:19 PM.
#1174605 - 03/07/21 09:20 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Yeah', all those sun worshippers in California blame everything they can for cancer lol...

#1174607 - 03/07/21 09:43 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Back to BIAB...

Does the likelihood of it spitting out what you need increase over several takes? IS it worth downloading everything it puts out and then splitting the audio to get parts you need? Or does it ruin it splitting it?

#1174609 - 03/07/21 10:19 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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FD. In a typical BIAB session I would do a number of verses and choruses. Each one will be a little different. Let's say I do four and there is drums, bass, guitar, piano. I would end up exporting 4 .wav files, each with 4 verses. You can split these in your DAW and use what you want. Sometimes the way it churned out the piano in verse 2 really just works great, better than verse 1, so you use that twice. That's a starting point. You can then get into splitting it up further and moving chunks around. Generally, they still fit musically, although not always.

#1174611 - 03/07/21 11:07 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Marty, but the advertising...of EZBass is that it's patterns are song ready, much like drums are. Seems with drums, you get a chitload of patterns, then buy an expansion pack, you then get a completely different drum sound, PLUS more patterns. Its just not gonna be a problem. WIth Piano and Bass you could buy as many packs as you want, you will still have a hard time finding your feel

I initially thought it be a matter of finding a preset and then editing a bit. But the alternatives are creating a bass line in the grid editor, or playing it on guitar, converting to midi, or playing it on midi controller

I think Japovs bass went over Martys head. You could buy a bass though, and then face many challenges getting a good sound with it, then you need the right pre, the right software emulator, or buy a bass amp. But there are many ways to skin the cat


If a person is a skillful pianist with a deep knowledge of musical theory, all of this audio/midi (interface) stuff was delivered to that person on a silver platter. A person with such skills (e.g. the person in the video) cannot only play any instrument that they want in this world, but they can singularly become a convincing symphony orchestra. Practice your keyboards. The patterns (piano rolls) were invented to make money off all the rest of us.

Japov's bass did go over my head.

#1174612 - 03/07/21 11:10 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Back to BIAB...

Does the likelihood of it spitting out what you need increase over several takes? IS it worth downloading everything it puts out and then splitting the audio to get parts you need? Or does it ruin it splitting it?


Search "BIAB MULTI RIFFS on YouTube.

#1174614 - 03/07/21 11:54 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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I have before dont like it as much as you do. It still creating melodies based on itself, and not your song. Course, not having BIAB cant really give it a fair shake.

I think its inevitable, whats going to happen in the future, the details and control over playing in the other types of software, and then using an algorithm like BIAB, youd have the best of both worlds. Im surprised we dont have it already. NI for example, they have parts in the software but they are not creating anything.

Would be a nice combo

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/08/21 12:03 AM.
#1174615 - 03/07/21 11:59 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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To your other point, I agree, why is it whenever somebody is demonstrating a software, they are always playing themselves lol

Thats cause you can do a helluva lot more if you play it. Next theyll be showing us voice software and singing into it themselves

I can play piano very basicly. I can certainly play bass on the keyboard, and should have no problem using the controller. I used to program songs on a keyboard sequencer. And wasnt bad, it was like having a daw but away from a computer. The sounds werent as good, but thats normal

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/08/21 12:04 AM.
#1174616 - 03/08/21 12:07 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Thanks Gavin for the info...

#1174617 - 03/08/21 12:09 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
I have before dont like it as much as you do. It still creating melodies based on itself, and not your song. Course, not having BIAB cant really give it a fair shake.

I think ts inevitable, whats going to happen in the future, the details and control over playing in the other types of software, and then using an algorithm like BIAB. Youd have the best of both worlds. Im surprised we dont have it already. NI for example, they have parts in the software but they are not creating anything.

Would be a nice combo

No, BIAB is not creating melodies. You have to bring that to it. I would never go into BIAB without a melody already fully formed. It has occasionally happened that I change it a little because I try a different chord and it leads me to another melodic idea. I have no problem creating melodies. The instruments I play with any degree of competence are purely melodic and I spend large parts of my day singing made up melodies to my dogs. They are very patient. BIAB provides the backing. That's all.

#1174618 - 03/08/21 12:19 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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The riff feature does create melodies. But you enter the chords just like you would and it plays a riff based on the chord progression. Not on your song, so its essentially the same as picking a solo they provide. Although the riffs tend to be short runs used for intros and such

#1174624 - 03/08/21 09:01 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
The riff feature does create melodies. But you enter the chords just like you would and it plays a riff based on the chord progression. Not on your song, so its essentially the same as picking a solo they provide. Although the riffs tend to be short runs used for intros and such


I know.

The way I use it...

I look for a single style that compliments the chords the best. That takes some time for me , because I am not that familiar with the styles in the program.
Once I find one, I make setting adjustments to it and try to get it "in the pocket" as much as possible.
Once that is done, I use multi-riffs and generate 7 variations at a time. I may end up doing this with 2 styles.
Once I get some that I like, I cut and paste along the chord changes until I get a single solo that I like more.

Recently, I was able to achieve something that did not feel locked to the chords but fairly natural and flowing.

I am going to send that off and see if a real good pianist can top it, but it works for the song if they dont.
That is pretty good for sitting at home with algorithms for a musical partner.
And getting better all the time.

#1174625 - 03/08/21 09:16 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Ps....

What I havent looked into yet is exporting the finished real track multi riffs to midi files, so that I can contour the phrasing some in a midi editor.
If that is possible that would be another level of user control that enabled some degree of personal phrasing.

Also...I tried this approach with EZK but I could not arrive at anything that sounded unlocked from the chords and not stiff. I chopped the chords down to 1/8 notes in places and introduced suspended 4ths and add9s and some major 7ths but never got anything that sounded as natural as using BIABs multi riffs with some cutting and pasting.

#1174626 - 03/08/21 10:03 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Regarding rooms...
Gregory addresses this in the video below. I only watched a few seconds of this because I gotta do something else right now, but whatever he says about the room is probably correct and insightful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvUgFlx-F4c

#1174628 - 03/08/21 11:41 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Usually studio players have such good ears, they can hear it and copy it pretty easily, especially where its not buried on a mix and hard to hear.

The ultimate in software would be something semi intelligent. Tap in your melody, and it will create a variation of that based on algorithms. It seems fairly easy enough to do considering whats already been done. And I think it be a game changer for BIAB users especially.

How many times do I listen to a BIAB demo, and get so disconnected to the actual song because the intro not only doesnt pull me in, but often pulls me away. Its subtle, but playing a generic lead in to a specific melody weakens the focus of the song. Its like ok, what a waste of thirty seconds that was. Then they sing, and out of left field comes a supporting melody that is not very supporting, although it will fit in the key.

Its all about keeping the listener engaged.

Think of the intros to Desperado, Hotel California, Or ballads like Sometimes when we Touch, Your Song, not the same melody as the vocal, but a variation of it. I think it can create decent groove oriented riffs, ba dada da, ba dada da, in a rhtymic pattern, where then the bass and drums lock into it.

Funny I sang this at a company picnic many moon years ago. I was workin in the mail room of this big company, word got out I played and sang, I showed up with guitar and sang right in front of the president. He didnt make one face thrugh it all, but afterwords gave me a pat on the back, "just fantastic he says" lol. Im like you were listening?

Great tune, that descending bass line in the chorus would not be made by BIAB either. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVf940pO5ME

Wow this played right after...listen to the musical hook/intro, perfect'
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sometimes+love+aint+enough

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/08/21 11:59 AM.
#1174629 - 03/08/21 12:00 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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As discussed...

BIAB is a musical tool. The effectiveness of it will be subject to the sensibilities and musical understanding of the person using it. MZ gets a very good result. The guy in the EZB video would get a very good result. A rough strummer or somebody who doesn't play anything and just clicks on "The Melodist" and starts singing will get a disjointed result.

The gist for you...
It's a hell of a tool as of right now and getting better all the time. You should learn to use it and then ride with the upgrades. You would be glad that you did.

#1174630 - 03/08/21 12:06 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Mike did better on the songs where he wrote the music. And his vocals and backing vocals were the main reason the demos were worth it to somebody buying. He was a workin mans demo maker, no complaints what he did for folks. But the question would be, "Does somebody else think they can do it too?" Not if they cant sing, not if they dont understand music . Not if their melodies and lyrics are weak. Still comes down to the basics.

The demos he made sounded very respectable, and from what I hear was very reasonable prices. He knew at the end of the day it was a BIAB demo.


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/08/21 12:07 PM.
#1174633 - 03/08/21 12:20 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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You can lead a horse to water...but you cant make it stop arguing non-constructively.
Your loss. I suggest a re-think.

#1174634 - 03/08/21 12:25 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Im spending lots of time figuring out what Im gonna do, im already hearing the arrangements as I air drum and whistle my tunes. Im just unsure if Ill be able to capture it, be nice to have a band.

Does it matter whos leading the horse? Or is it a forgone conclusion that the person leading the horse to water, has good vision, and sense,

Maybe the horse is alot smarter than the one leading.....

#1174635 - 03/08/21 12:38 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Quoting Bill Clinton in his infamous deposition...

"I revert to my prior statement."

#1174636 - 03/08/21 01:09 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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One idea im tinkering with is using a drummer, bassist, keyboard player from fiverrr. Then taking their tracks and using them in toontracks stuff. Throw the drummer in ez drums, bassist, in ez bass, keys in ez keys.

It would get expensive to do all my songs like that, and Im gonna try other ways first to see if I get acceptable results, and get a multi million dollar recording deal.

But im never gonna record just to record, I believe you gotta have something good to record.

#1174638 - 03/08/21 01:30 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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I tried playing an easy piano accompaniment for a verse on the midi in the song that I am currently working on.
I recorded it in EZK and then exported to a midi file.
I then brought that midi file back into EZK and tried applying EZK styles and variations to the midi.

(Saw all this in a video)

My result was terrible. Just sounded like a mess with no connection to the original song.

If you give something like that a shot and get a good result...please let me hear it and share how you did it.

#1174647 - 03/08/21 03:38 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Im not sure why that would be other than stuff inside ezkeys is more than just midi. It seems like that shouldnt happen. I guess youd have the same problem exporting drums, and then bringing it back to midi. I do know that if you bring in other midi parts from other sources it works fine.

In the piano on EZ there are many different nuanced sources of editing. Like consider the tuning box, the foot pedals. It may be that EZ is working different than standard midi. Maybe there is coding difficulties.

But I spoke with a drummer who plays drums for people online. He said he can save his files two ways. Compressed, mixed, and ready to be used down to two stereo tracks. Or he can save it uncompressed, unmixed and allow me to use the tracks in any software I want. At first I thought, well I dont know what the hell im doing, might as well let him send me finished stuff, but then theres EZ drums and their mixing software which could take alot of the guess work out.

#1174648 - 03/08/21 04:04 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Wait you said you played it yourself, saved and exported to midi ...?

Well i dont know how how that is even possible, You played one thing on keys, and tried to get it to play something different.

WHere is the video on that, it doesnt seem possible, the arrangements in EZ are preset patterns, your playing your own thing...


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/08/21 04:05 PM.
#1174649 - 03/08/21 04:07 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Not the point.

The midi to the original track brought back in to EZK plays fine. Sounds just like when I recorded it to begin with.
But when I start trying to embellish it by applying styles and variations to it...it doesnt go well.
This guy in a video got a good result with a jazz piece but I couldnt get a good result with mine.

#1174650 - 03/08/21 04:16 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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So you recorded a piano track, saved to midi, brought it back into ez keys and tried to add it to existing presets?

Dont know how that worked for the guy either. The ability of ez keys to play styles and variations is not saved in midi.

Its probably a coding thing.

#1174651 - 03/08/21 04:26 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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The idea was to style-ize the midi of my piano accompaniment with the presets in EZK.
I brought it in and applied a pop-style - 3rd variation (for example)

And it did work. But not well or predictably. Couldnt use what resulted.

Worked on the jazz solo for the guy in the video fairly well.

#1174652 - 03/08/21 04:34 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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We really should start a thread to continue these recording production tid bits, like start it in musicians, it tends to get buried in the recording forum down below.

I wanna talk about starting and stopping songs, they say fading out is not really an option any more, so few do it. So how do manage endings with software.../ in general

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/08/21 04:36 PM.
#1174653 - 03/08/21 05:36 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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I'm in for that. I really enjoy working with the audio software and look for places to learn and share experiences.

Btw...Toontracks EZKeys forum was a real let down. Not much to look at that I could find.

So yeah, start some threads, tell me where they are and we can share our experiences and finds.

As for starting and stopping...for me it is decay out or land on the one. If there are others to consider...cool.
BIAB has several endings...coda this coda that. Could dig into that. Been wanting to.

#1174656 - 03/08/21 06:32 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Their forum stinks, bunch of morons who get mad when you state something about the software might not be up to snuff. For that matter BIAB forum was the same way. I signed up many years ago, "i dont know, im not sure you can get professional results with Biab'

WHAT? Well, somebody peed in his cheerios today. Or my personal favorite "Its not the tools, its the person using it" Oh really now, then what would you use if not BIAB? Crickets... lol, didnt even wanna say something else, could that would be sacrilege.

I swear there were some zealots on there who kissed Peter Gannons arse like he was The Prince of Wales

HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT SOUNDS CHEESY>>>

It was funny, but also unfruitful, its one of the things that left me with a bad band in a box taste in my mouth.

What are ya gonna do...

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/08/21 06:34 PM.
#1174658 - 03/08/21 06:50 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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I just remembered the reason I tried BIAB LOL... smile
I make a lot of rough phone recordings when I get song ideas...
I heard that you could plug an audio file into BIAB and it would automatically analyze it and produce a chord sheet / tempo / style for you. Boy... did THAT turn out to be BS!

#1174659 - 03/08/21 07:52 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: JAPOV]  
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Originally Posted by JAPOV
I just remembered the reason I tried BIAB LOL... smile
I make a lot of rough phone recordings when I get song ideas...
I heard that you could plug an audio file into BIAB and it would automatically analyze it and produce a chord sheet / tempo / style for you. Boy... did THAT turn out to be BS!


Style? I dunno.

Chord sheet?
My DAW will do that. So will BIAB. BIAB will throw in Notation.

TEMPO?
BIAB absolutely will. You have to go into the "chord wizard" with audio and set a few bar markers at transients...but...been there and done that. Easy PZ and effective.

#1174661 - 03/08/21 11:52 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Really? I never could get it to work.... Plug this in and see what happens

https://www.soundclick.com/music/songInfo.cfm?songID=14203869

#1174662 - 03/08/21 11:58 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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All I know for sure... No matter how advanced the technology gets, unless you include some porn in your "workflow", nobody is going to pay money to watch an old guy play with a computer smile

#1174666 - 03/09/21 07:01 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: JAPOV]  
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Originally Posted by JAPOV
All I know for sure... No matter how advanced the technology gets, unless you include some porn in your "workflow", nobody is going to pay money to watch an old guy play with a computer smile



I never said that they would.

#1174681 - 03/09/21 01:28 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Does anybody know if you buy Native Instruments controller, would that controller still be ok for using in other softwares, settings? Like Ez bass, keys

#1174682 - 03/09/21 01:52 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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I suspect that it is universal. Call their customer support to be certain.

#1174687 - 03/09/21 05:22 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Boy im glad i didnt buy BIAB, that woulda been a mistake. somebody said. "Additional good advice is not to give or accept bad advice as you move towards it. It's just static and wrong turns to do so."

Sheww, i dodged a bullet

#1174690 - 03/09/21 05:40 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Like I said in the other post. Suit yourself.

#1174691 - 03/09/21 05:43 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Ive been suiting myself but you wont let me.... LMAOOOO

Ok I think I put the smack down on Marty by now. Back to business..
Another good EZ bass video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMV6Rw5tnMY

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/09/21 05:44 PM.
#1174692 - 03/09/21 05:47 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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I suppose fantasies are fun. Enjoy yours.

#1174695 - 03/09/21 06:01 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Im regaining interest in EZ bass, but its ALOT of work. Its almost like you're a secretary than a musician.

But I think between using presets as your source notes, then using the articulations, and transitions, you can basicly string along a bass line. Its the long way around but should work

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/09/21 06:02 PM.
#1174697 - 03/09/21 06:39 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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I do not know how difficult the bass lines on your song are. But if you can play it yourself on a bass, you can play it on a midi just about as easily, and then clean up the timing and velocity in a midi editor very easily. If you learn some of those triggers in the video that you found, you can do quite a bit more.

#1174701 - 03/09/21 07:26 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: JAPOV]  
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Originally Posted by JAPOV
All I know for sure... No matter how advanced the technology gets, unless you include some porn in your "workflow", nobody is going to pay money to watch an old guy play with a computer smile

Oh, come on guys... That's funny and you know it! smile

#1174702 - 03/09/21 08:01 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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The main difference Marty, is that you have to come up with the bass part. I have to say, im pretty good with coming up with bass lines, but im still not a bass player. There's a feel, a command of the instrument, a knowing what role the bass plays, knowing what sounds are good and what arent, that I dont possess.

If I put hours and hours and hours into my stuff, and spend all kinds of money on stuff, gadgets, the reason would be I want people to hear it, I want to shoot for TV Movies, release an album, so in other words, I want people to think a real bass player is playing.

But it could be worse, I could be trying to do that on piano....

I wonder if there are extra midi bass files online. Something where you can get chitloads of patterns that you can then put through into EZ


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/09/21 08:04 PM.
#1174703 - 03/09/21 09:06 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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FD

Spend a few bucks on a midi. Make it as useful as you can and move on.
All this back and forth is just lost heat energy that could be spent learning and using that.

Pick a path and move down it. I will be more than glad to share whatever information that I can with you. I spend hours learning these things too,

#1174979 - 03/17/21 10:02 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Just downloaded NI, Strummed acoustic, and got both their electric guitar softwares as well, the sunburst deluxe and the classic...I believe the classic is modeled after the 50's telecaster.

Main reason is having everything in one spot, one unit, no noise, with the articulations, these things have better technique than I do, playing the real thing. I dont do alot of bells and whistles, I basicly play as if I were in a garage band.

I dont want it to sound over my head so Ill KISS, but i figure ill bang through dozens of songs, and find a few that are worth doing the right way. Or it may not happen, might not feel any are worth it, and the demo is good enough.

Just gotta get the controller from guitar center now, and then hit the massive learning curve.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/17/21 10:03 AM.
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