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#1174449 - 03/02/21 04:15 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Ok, but I dont think you guys are rockers lol

I think when you slow down or speed up, you are also changing the tone of the part,not just the volume. Your fingers may not hit all the strings of the chord in different parts. Theres all kinds of subtties that its doubtful BIAB could emulate, but the question is are we asking it to do all that, shouldnt be.

Ive got some thinking to do, wheres my toilet paper.....

#1174450 - 03/02/21 04:15 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Here is a 58 second video describing automation....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwcwngMkSzI

#1174451 - 03/02/21 04:24 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Shew nobody go in there for a while ok>?

Sounds good Marty, Ive never used that stuff, the last daw I really worked with was Magix, i got it cause i liked the round knobs that mimicked a real console, ive also used cakewalk, but ive never considered that stuff cause I never had to. Ez Drummer i can do all that myself just in the program itself, playing guitar I can do it myself.

But its good to know thats there, im probably gonna need a new daw, i have cakewalk and magix

#1174458 - 03/02/21 11:24 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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I found I also have Steinbergs cubase, that came with guitar rig, when I used to use that. Nice simple software

And Im learning that many people are able to get Cakewalks studio instruments package free, I think it may come with bandlab, I dont recall it costing alot of money, and is not very good anyway, but still pisses you off its free now.

#1174466 - 03/03/21 06:43 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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I forgot to say, it seems that if biab like what you post on their forum they give you an award.
I received mine after posting 4 songs in the latter part of 2020. The award was the 2021 new biab release for free. When I told them I'd already bought the 2021 audiophile update they refunded what I had paid which was about 300 or $400.
How neat is that for customer service?

Vic


It's never too late? Yes it is, so do it now.

If, given time, a monkey can write the complete works of Shakespeare maybe there's hope for me.

http://store.cdbaby.com/cd/vicarnold2

http://www.soundclick.com/vicarnold

http://soundcloud.com/vic-arnold

#1174468 - 03/03/21 07:36 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Thats cool, it beats a pat on the back. And probably pays for itself over and over again cause alot of people probably check out that forum. I remember years ago checking that forum out and everything was amateur and hacky sounding. It has gotten better. could be that the ones who werent doing well with it gave up!

Good business, means something to you. Yeah tell me about it, customer service these days is non existent

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/04/21 02:00 PM.
#1174470 - 03/03/21 11:16 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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This is getting absolutely crazy, I know this has been around a while, but I prefer playing electrici dont consider myself a good acoustic player, and just for convenience, think about how you need to be isoloated and really know how to mic an acoustic, and then theres just getting started, lay down a fast acoustic track from this, and work around that, Then use ez drums...

Im just floored how good this is, and guys...its better than BIAB, although BIAB has everything in one unit

crazy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYmUhrdor6g

#1174474 - 03/04/21 09:07 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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That has a great sound. But it is essentially one timbre of sound. The company that makes it makes many virtual instruments.
But it is not as complex or as evolved as BIAB. This particular software appears to be a virtual instrument. BIAB blends multiple virtual instruments ("real tracks") achieving convincing accompaniments and solos. Your attitude about BIAB was formed years ago when you bought a copy and does not reflect what BIAB has become and importantly, is becoming.

Nonetheless...Native Instruments Komplete has a lot of real good stuff. Thanks for posting. I had never looked at their acoustic guitar VSTs.

#1174475 - 03/04/21 09:52 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Oh I beg to differ about the complexity. The whole thing is one specific instrument, strummed acoustic, they have picked acoustic too, being just like toontrack where they have to make you buy everything. The humanizing effects, fret noise (sometimes fret noise sounds stupid), chord changing spaces and noises, and with 160 different patterns, all of which can be found again, or tweaked , its doubtful youd run into a case where your forcing your song to fit IT, as opposed to IT fitting your song. The thing about strumming an acoustic, it only needs to be a sound enhancer, adding nice twelve string or strummed martins into the mix will never hurt it and give it a fuller sound than without it.

Throwing ez piano into the mix often fails because number one, you cant find a pattern that fits your groove, number two, you usually need piano to play melody, and accompany the melody of the song, at least when the piano player is good. You dont really have that option.

Strummed acoustic guitar will always fit any song cause its just a wall of sound, Im intrigued about the possibility of this.

You also between the picking one and the strumming pretty much can get an acoustic vocal demo, on que, very easily. I could knock off alot of songs quickly just as g/v and it will sound great.

I think its more focused on one instrument, just as ez drums which makes it better than BIAB. Im not against BIAB, It does sound good, I just think when its geard to one instrument its more comprehensive.

As I mentioned im not finding ez piano or really ez bass to be as forgiving.... mainly because there just isnt enough patterns and feels to cover you, you end up sacrificing how you envision it, for their take.

Again, I dont think thats a problem with strummed acoustic guitars. Even their electric guitars sound good, but youd run into problems with limitations like you do with any chorded instrument that also plays melody, and I find its more groove drivin. It will play a riff, and then you try to follow it with everything else....yeah, but when I wrote the song in the park with my acoustic, I wasnt hearing that..

It may come down to me using different things for different purposes. I think Biabs main advantage is that if you DONT KNOW how you want your song to feel or be played, it will play it for you anyway without having an idea. But based on demos Ive heard, I can tell there is still alot of compromising going on. I heard a demo the other day, it sounded EXACTLY like U2. First thing I said was, ok, hes using a u2 preset...lol. That's where it gets tacky and hacky, . thats not what you anybody should be using it for. Im like who is covering "Where The Streets Have No Name?"

Of course its a bit of a leap of faith, if I buy strummed acoustics 2, i probably should get 1 since thats the source program, then id probably need finger picking and flat picking ones, just to mix with strumming.

Then I believe you need the controller they provide just to make it easier to use.

but hey...press one note, the root of your chord, and it plays the whole chord, and you can voice the chord however you want.

But this could easily turn into a thousand dollar investment considering i probably need a pre amp, monitors, new mic

I think BIABS advantage is it all comes as one, even the recording software. im surprised they havent made a bundle that includes a pre amp, mic, monitors, headphones.

Alot of work no matter what, but unless I do something, these songs spinning in my head will never get out of my head!

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/04/21 10:07 AM.
#1174476 - 03/04/21 10:23 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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The Native Instruments guitars do sound great, particularly the picked acoustic for the kind of thing I write. I have the free version of the Kontakt player which is compatible with this. It work as a VST plug in in the DAW. However, I think the keyboard would certainly help to get the most out of this, and that's a $1,049 investment. Does anyone here use Native Instruments without the keyboard?

#1174477 - 03/04/21 10:43 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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[quote=Fdemetrio]

Oh I beg to differ about the complexity.

[/quote

Contrary facts have never stopped you from arguing on, so I dont see why they would now. It really doesnt matter much anyway. If you want to believe a single instrument vst has more complexity than BIAB...so be it.

The day is steadily approaching when the instruments in BIAB all have this level of articulation as well as algorithms to compose them into convincing band sections.

#1174478 - 03/04/21 10:48 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Originally Posted by Gavin Sinclair
The Native Instruments guitars do sound great, particularly the picked acoustic for the kind of thing I write. I have the free version of the Kontakt player which is compatible with this. It work as a VST plug in in the DAW. However, I think the keyboard would certainly help to get the most out of this, and that's a $1,049 investment. Does anyone here use Native Instruments without the keyboard?


I dont. I looked at Native Instruments when I was shopping for strings, because the strings VST in my DAW was so fake sounding. I ended up buying Hollywood Strings ($99) and am happy enough with it for what I do.

The NI stuff clearly is better and much more elaborate, but it's capacity would mostly be wasted on me and my little songs.
And the cost of getting into it...for me...was probably not money well spent.

#1174480 - 03/04/21 12:00 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Gavin, Im pretty sure you could use any midi controller, it just be a matter of knowing what keys do what. I know enough about piano to know what notes im playing so it doesnt hinder me there.

Im POSITIVE that the controller is a waste of money, now that you mention its a thousands by it self. Just go to the dollar store, get some colored stickers and put them on the keys. But it would probably become second nature after a while

No way would I pay 1000 for the controller. Does this program run in a daw as a vst? Do you have to own kontact?


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/04/21 12:01 PM.
#1174481 - 03/04/21 12:30 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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FD, I was wrong about the keyboard. The $1,049 is for their top of the line version. They go as low as $139.
https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/bundles/komplete-kontrol/

Here's a good video comparison.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua6zxWHoxm8

I think you can use any midi keyboard but theirs are set up to make it easy to use software features directly from the keyboard.
.
To answer your other questions, there is a difference between the controller (which is software) and the keyboard, which provides a convenient way to use the software. There is a free version of the software, KONTAKT PLAYER which would allow you to use many of the instruments, including these guitars, but not all as third party instruments often require the paid version KONTAKT 6, if I remember correctly.

#1174482 - 03/04/21 12:47 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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ok that makes sense, probably the high tagged one is for piano players who need all 88 keys cause they are playing it themselves. In this case we are just using it as a trigger. 139 is what any midi controller would cost so would be worth it for all the ease built it.

All im really concerned with is the strummed acoustic maybe picked. And id have the option of playing in single notes for hooks, riffs.

This is a no brainer, I OWN this.

But it may come down to using multiple brands of stuff, its funny how none of them are good at everything. Opens the market for other companies. Toontrack excels at drums, they just realised superior drummer 3, which i dont even wanna look at it. the bastards constantly come out with something new that you cant live without out, brilliant marketers.

Heres my band. EZ on drums, me on Vocals and electric guitar. NI on acoustic guitars, Me playing guitar into ez bass, to essentially create a bass line myself, unless i get lucky and find a preset that fits.

Piano im very picky about, might get somebody to help me...ie fiverr,

but the supergroup is being assembled!

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/04/21 12:52 PM.
#1174484 - 03/04/21 02:21 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Are people here Mac or Windows users?

Just wondering if using macs for music is more prevalent

Computers for me means business and Windows and not recording music

Do record on a Tascam Portastudio and via smartphone video...so you can tell my extent is amateur at best

Like FD said earlier on, not sure I want to devote time, money, effort etc into learning something new.

Did buy BIAB for the iPad which was cool...but this Native Intruments stuff is amazing....


If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

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#1174485 - 03/04/21 02:53 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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No my actual concern was learning BIAB, which only gives me expertise in BIAB, doesnt make me a better musician, songwriter, etc, where that expertise can be used in anything else.. it's kind of like learning how to install satelitte dishes only, if you change jobs and install cable or roku, your experience as a dish installer doesnt really help.

Everyday were learning something new, my point was specific to learning a software, but if you bought a new software next year, youd be starting all over again.

No matter what you do there is a learning curve, I just dont want to be a master of BIAB.

They use to say that Mac was better for recording music, I think the tech is so good, it doesnt really matter. Some people record on their cell phones.

But alot of people get into it and dont know how music works, ive seen and heard people trying to make songs out of loops and samples and it almost always sounds like chit. Gotta learn what a chord is before you can make a great recording.

Unless you play Punk Rock, but then you better make up for it with attitude and entertainment.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/04/21 02:56 PM.
#1174498 - 03/05/21 04:56 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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The issue with Mac and Windows is....or was.... software. BIAB was not available for Windows for years and though I expect Windows has lots available now, maybe the better ones are still Mac????


If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

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#1174499 - 03/05/21 05:26 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Yeah its totally available for windows. You can get the whole package on external hard drive. I cant speak to Mac, ive never owned one, I did inherit an ipad from my nephew who outgrew his...lol but thats about the closest i came to understanding mac

I do know its always been said mac was better for artistic stuff, graphic design, music, photography, but I dont think anybody here who uses BIAB also uses a mac, I might be wrong. If Anything, I would have one windows based pc devoted to music, another for everyday stuff.

If you write lyrics and need an instant cowriter, arranger, fun time with your songs, BIAB is more than suffice, and will probably make you feel like a world class producer. The best oart of it is easy to use. As far as I know, no other software allows you to type in a chord (You do have to know what a chord is, and what chords your song is using or wants to use) If some of the more complex software had that feature it be one hell of a combo.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/05/21 05:40 PM.
#1174500 - 03/05/21 05:36 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Marty, Ive been wrestling with EZ bass, I came across this instructinal video, which shows you how to basicly write the bass line in the grid editor, without having to play it at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X1SEqcoDL4

My beef has been, if I play the guitar, which then converts to midi so ez bass can use it, Im not taking advantage of the pro player who played the bass, its ME playing it, im just borrowing their sound. Again, drums, i can use presets and edit, so that Im not playing anything, a real pro drummer played it.

I just dont know why they assume all bass lines are locked in with the kick drum. Yeah, if you go Boom, Boom, Boom Boom, thats two kick drums two snares. But what if your bass is playing 8th notes, over same drum pattern, much different than locking it in.

it just SEEMS to me all this software from many companies are all groove oriented. And they are REALLY designed to make you write your song TO the stuff they provide, and not as much to make their parts TO your song.

Its like im not buying this stuff to help me write songs, im buying it to help me arrange them

the grid technique is interesting, you get the real player playing it, BUT, disadvantage is you have to come up with your own bass line and edit it into the midi. I guess much easier to do it with single notes than chords.

Just gets annoying where they assume drums and bass are one in the same. they are not.

#1174501 - 03/05/21 07:38 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
it just SEEMS to me all this software from many companies are all groove oriented. And they are REALLY designed to make you write your song TO the stuff they provide, and not as much to make their parts TO your song.

Its like im not buying this stuff to help me write songs, im buying it to help me arrange them


Bingo!... I purchased the $99 version of BIAB back in November, used it once for a piano track and gave it back. BIAB gave me no control over phrasing, and limited what samples I could use by "style/genre". Ultimately, I was dissatisfied with the sound... I found myself re-arranging my mix to accommodate the "character" of the piano.

GB/LogicX on Mac are very MIDI intensive, if you can at least play chords on a keyboard then you're all set. If you play an E-kit it gets even better, but you can also program drum parts with a keyboard. Or, use the pre-programmed patterns to "block out" your arrangement, then edit. I like GB/LogicX because it an easy to use, all in one program. It already has every "effect/plugin" you can possibly imagine, and allows you to create and store your own. It has arpeggiators that you can program and play any way you can imagine, you can even double them up, but....lol, no... Mac will not play your instruments for you.

#1174502 - 03/05/21 07:38 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Thanks for the information FD.

My songs are so simple, that it is pretty easy to knock a bass line out on the midi and then clean it up in the midi editor. What I really like about EZB is the tones. They are so much better than my DAW bass. Much more melodic with a lot of variations. When I hit the midi keys too hard, the strings even rattle.

I agree with you completely that most VSTs follow chords to closely. I spent hours trying to get a good result on piano from EZ KEYS. I've sliced and diced and tried suspended chords and on and on, yet cannot escape getting something that sounds somewhat lifelessly tied to the chord progression. That's what I like about BIAB. I bought it primarily for piano and steel petal guitar. It does a pretty good job of sounding like a real solo. I usually have to cut and paste some, but not too much.

In just a few years, I suspect that they will all be great at producing solos and accompaniments.

#1174503 - 03/05/21 07:50 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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I you're looking for a quick easy tool to simply help you with arrangements, check this out...

http://www.chordpulse.com/

I like the pure simplicity of it. I didn't even have to read the instructions lol, if you've ever played with the rhythm section on a keyboard you can master this little program in 30min! I find that it allows me to focus completely on chord progression and song structure without even touching an instrument or messing with a DAW. What's really cool is once you've chosen your chords and blocked out your song in pages (intro-verse-chorus-etc..) you can then press play and change tempo or style on the fly. Or, loop a particular section of your song and experiment with different chords. Don't expect great sounds though, it's not designed for that. It even sounds like a cheep casio you would find at walmart lol. However, it exports midi files for your DAW or a real keyboard. Comes with a 14 day free trial, doesn't hog computer resources, no adds, and only costs $29.00.

#1174504 - 03/05/21 07:54 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Japov, that is a problem no matter what software you get. The assumption is, "you have no capablilty to create music, so use ours, and write a song over it" My stuff is not overly complex, im not asking for miracles, im asking that when I come to the software WITH my song, theres something there for me to use. I mean some of these things they have riffs built in. Now how the hell are you going to use a riff from a software, and call it your song. And then post it online, and notice 5 other people have the same riff in their song lol

Drums I cant complain one bit about. I can literally come to ez drums, and it will support...with alot of work, ANYTHING i write or hear in my head. Not the case with other instruments. I thought bass might be more forgiving cause you only need one note at a time, but again, you go into the files. pull something out, change the chords, but it just doesnt seem to fit.

Its almost like they want you to use everything they have, and it will all sound fine, cause they are built to be use with each other.

Im excited about NI's acoustic, as i mentioned I think strumming a guitar works for just about anything. Its not going to get in the way or stand out as not seeming like it belongs in the song.

For other stuff, it may come down to meticulously editing everything, which begs the question..."do I spend 24 hours editing a bass line, or do I get somebody to play it, and be done in 15 minutes, and better.

Or, taking the time out to improve my musician skills so I can play all those instruments. Either way its an investment in time.

#1174505 - 03/05/21 07:58 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: JAPOV]  
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Originally Posted by JAPOV
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
it just SEEMS to me all this software from many companies are all groove oriented. And they are REALLY designed to make you write your song TO the stuff they provide, and not as much to make their parts TO your song.

Its like im not buying this stuff to help me write songs, im buying it to help me arrange them


Bingo!... I purchased the $99 version of BIAB back in November, used it once for a piano track and gave it back. BIAB gave me no control over phrasing, and limited what samples I could use by "style/genre". Ultimately, I was dissatisfied with the sound... I found myself re-arranging my mix to accommodate the "character" of the piano.

GB/LogicX on Mac are very MIDI intensive, if you can at least play chords on a keyboard then you're all set. If you play an E-kit it gets even better, but you can also program drum parts with a keyboard. Or, use the pre-programmed patterns to "block out" your arrangement, then edit. I like GB/LogicX because it an easy to use, all in one program. It already has every "effect/plugin" you can possibly imagine, and allows you to create and store your own. It has arpeggiators that you can program and play any way you can imagine, you can even double them up, but....lol, no... Mac will not play your instruments for you.


My version of BIAB was about $400, I think. It was their 2nd or 3rd tier offer. It was a special that they told me offered all of their entire library, with some limitations of some kind.

I cannot phrase the piano solos and wish I could.

What I can do is pick a style and then set a few parameters concerning how closely it will follow the chords and vary the notes durations. Then I can use a function called multi-riff which spits out seven variations on a solo at a click . Sometimes they are pretty bad but once in a while they are pretty good. And if they are pretty good , I can usually do a little cutting and pasting between the seven variations and end up with a convincing result.

I've been working on a song for going on 3 months. Most of the time is spent watching instructional videos about how to use the software. I completed an 8 bar piano solo in BIAB that I really like. I'm going to send it as a guide to NashvilleTrax and see if a real player can improve on it. I'll post it up when done. You can issue your own verdict. smile

Sidenote: I tried using EZ KEYS to embellish a piano solo that I banged out on the midi. I watched a video where you load in a midi of your playing and then assign EZK parameters that embellish it. Sounded like crap. But maybe one day.

#1174506 - 03/05/21 08:00 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Marty, the notion that your songs are simple and dont require anything, is the wrong assumption.

There's tons of music, tons of songs that are three chords, it doesnt mean you want [naughty word removed] recordings of them. And dont equate a simple song to [naughty word removed].

None of us are writing Jazz opuses.... or Conciertos.

All the complaints I have are about the SOUND. it all comes down to how it sounds, whether its because you had to play it yourself, or were forced to change the rhythm of your song, because they had nothing to offer you. I suspect that happens to people alot, they assume the software knows more than they do, and go with an arrangememnt that doesnt have the same feel they were looking for

But 3 chord songs still have a feel, and have a quality to the playing, and most of all, sound good.


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/05/21 08:06 PM.
#1174507 - 03/05/21 08:07 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Fd

The song that I am working on now is truly easy. I played a melodic baseline on the midi and recorded through EZB. So simple that I got it in a couple of passes. And then midi editing was just cleaning up my timing and adjusting the velocities. Just a few minutes. The bass line comes way forward in the song that I am currently writing. It provides a secondary melody to the song. I am very happy with what EZB did.

For me it was easier than getting a bass player and the result is fine. Thanks for bringing it up around here. Prompted me to buy it.

#1174508 - 03/05/21 08:18 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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I bought it myself and recomended it cause I was a believer in their stuff. The drums are great. I then got ez keys which I did about 10 songs with, I had posted them here years ago, with just piano and drums. Sound is good, its just the versatility. People were commenting, I think that piano needs some changes in the song... Ya think? You mean the player is not supposed to play the same 8 bar passage all the way through the song...

I was excited about EZ bass, i havent given up on it. Yeah I could play bass guitar, on bass, on guitar, or keyboard, and it wont suck...but at the same time, it wont be professional. If all guitar players were automatically bass players, we wouldnt need bass players.

.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/05/21 08:19 PM.
#1174510 - 03/05/21 09:00 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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I still have the piano demos I made, im gonna post some, after listening they sound pretty good, just not done.

I think two of them the piano is a perfect match, one the piano just would not behave how I wanted, and the other was just a repating loops cause I couldnt find anything else that worked with it.


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#1174558 - 03/06/21 11:18 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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The original subject of this thread concerned songs that sound fine through headphones but sound less so through some speakers. This video provides some interesting insights. One thing he explains (at 4:30) that I hadn't thought of is how with headphones your right ear hears nothing that your left ear hears and vice versa, whereas in a room with speakers both ears are hearing everything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPJ0ebMBN50

#1174560 - 03/06/21 11:35 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Yeah thats a good point, you ears also hear the room the song is playing in. Headphones might create an illusion for your brain.

But it always amazes me how even when I hear music out of an ancient alarm clock I still have, one tiny speaker, a song can still be enjoyable to listen to. Its all in the mastering I guess

#1174567 - 03/07/21 03:30 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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He makes a major point @6:05 about reference, but doesn't really get into it...

I've been collecting lots of equipment over the years... In Atlanta I had three sets of speakers and three different amps all running at the same time in my garage, and I was always wondering why I couldn't make a decent recording lol smile

#1174570 - 03/07/21 09:00 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Headphones are good for putting a song together. But to hear it well, and putting the stereo field out in front of you...good monitors are necessary.

#1174571 - 03/07/21 09:30 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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The room in which you are mixing and mastering also matters. Pro studios are all treated acoustically.

The recording world is all going internal, yet, where you hear it changes the whole sound. Listening in your car will sound different than listening in your room, or your basement, or your garage, or in a club, a bar, a concert hall

#1174572 - 03/07/21 10:03 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
The room in which you are mixing and mastering also matters. Pro studios are all treated acoustically.

The recording world is all going internal, yet, where you hear it changes the whole sound. Listening in your car will sound different than listening in your room, or your basement, or your garage, or in a club, a bar, a concert hall



I know but such considerations are somewhat rhetorical for home recorders. A low cut (-80) will take out a some back ground noise. Mics often have high pass filters also. Mics that we are likely to use are not going to have the sensitivity to go way out into the room and pic up reverberations. As a home recorder, If you are in a room that is so reverberant that "the room" is an issue...then you are in the wrong room.

But the issue at hand is headphones and clarity. And the point at hand is headphones...I think... I read over and over is that headphones can be real good but the size of the speakers etc, makes them inferior to listening to good monitors. Before I bought muy monitors, I went to GCenter and tested several that were down in the $400 price range and slightly above. That day in that store Yamaha HS5s were obviously clearer than the others. The reason I bought them is that I had upgraded my headphones to a pretty good quality over the ones that I had...and there was very little difference when mixing. The Yamahas are dramatically different.

#1174573 - 03/07/21 10:55 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Alot of things get a pass cause "its home recording". Yet when I post a demo of two instruments, I get reviews about the mix... LMAO

I think i brought up the room cause the youtube video talking about headphones....thats all

I used to own Alessis (whatever happened to that company?) usb monitors, I think they cost 100-150 at the time. Then at GC a guy told me that that unless you get really good/expensive monitors, you might as well use computer speakers.


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#1174575 - 03/07/21 11:30 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Alot of things get a pass cause "its home recording". Yet when I post a demo of two instruments, I get reviews about the mix... LMAO

I think i brought up the room cause the youtube video talking about headphones....thats all

I used to own Alessis (whatever happened to that company?) usb monitors, I think they cost 100-150 at the time. Then at GC a guy told me that that unless you get really good/expensive monitors, you might as well use computer speakers.



The GC guy was wrong. The HS series is genuinely good. The low range of good, but good.

As for your reviews...home recordings by ammys cannot be as good as studio recordings by skilled and talented audio techs. BUT...that doesnt mean that they cant be improved upon or have to settle for some self imposed ceiling. The youtube universe and company support sites offer years of education to people who want to take advantage of it....for free.

MZ provided proof that a home recorder can get very good results.

#1174576 - 03/07/21 11:35 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Bonus tip...

This guy...imho...offers very good insight into the artistry of audio recording. Seems to be talking the "real deal"...to me.
He taught me a technique for isolating and actually hearing compression. He has many videos, other than this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9aDCLUDomg

#1174577 - 03/07/21 11:50 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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So if im understanding correctly, the goal is to be good enough to share with people who are doing the same exact thing, and never have the recording, production go anywhere or do anything. So the process of recording, is the reward?

Ok, but then why does it matter if it sounds this good, that good, needs this, that? Back when songs were the focus, i guess it was the same, nobodies songs were doing anything anyway, it was just conversation fodder.

But, its alot of dough, and time, and effort, and work, from pen to master, for such a small reward/goal

For me, i want to release a CD, but before any recordings matter, the songs, performances, arrangements have to be there.

I usually look for that first before I comment on anything production wise. You wont read a comment of mine saying "you need this on that" when the demo is about as bad as it gets for everything else. lol. Why comment on the EQ of the bass when the bass in the track is never going to be the track used in anything commercial.

Its kind of like saying... "Use these pretty garbage bags to throw out all your loose papers and junk." and then people commenting on the bags.."lovely bags, what a wonderful display of garbage you have here" LOLLLLL

Im being facetious, but I think goals matter, and should be stated

Plus, by the time you buy everything, and keep upgrading, it becomes an expensive hobby, albeit a fun one

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/07/21 11:52 AM.
#1174578 - 03/07/21 11:55 AM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
So if im understanding correctly, the goal is to be good enough to share with people who are doing the same exact thing, and never have the recording, production go anywhere or do anything. So the process of recording, is the reward?

Ok, but then why does it matter if it sounds this good, that good, needs this, that? Back when songs were the focus, i guess it was the same, nobodies songs were doing anything anyway, it was just conversation fodder.

But, its alot of dough, and time, and effort, and work, from pen to master, for such a small reward/goal

For me, i want to release a CD, but before any recordings matter, the songs, performances, arrangements have to be there.

I usually look for that first before I comment on anything production wise. You wont read a comment of mine saying "you need this on that" when the demo is about as bad as it gets for everything else. lol. Why comment on the EQ of the bass when the bass in the track is never going to be the track used in anything commercial.

Its kind of like saying... "Use these pretty garbage bags to throw out all your loose papers and junk." and then people commenting on the bags.."lovely bags, what a wonderful display of garbage you have here" LOLLLLL

Im being facetious, but I think goals matter, and should be stated

Plus, by the time you buy everything, and keep upgrading, it becomes an expensive hobby, albeit a fun one



The "goal" is for the sound to be as good as it can be.
No point in going down side-streets and rabbit-holes.

#1174579 - 03/07/21 12:02 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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You have a point about goals, FD. Mine are pretty modest. However, it is possible to make a recording sound pretty decent without spending a whole lot of time and money. Not up to a professional recording in most cases, although I have heard some here that were that good, but it makes it easier to appreciate the song's potential. I don't enjoy the technical aspects but I have found some inexpensive and quick ways to make a recording more presentable. If you have too many bags of money cluttering up your garage you can get all this done professionally smile I will probably do that with a couple of songs, maybe more and end up with a few boxes of CDs sitting in my garage where all those sacks of money used to be.

#1174580 - 03/07/21 12:10 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Back to monitors and headphones. It seems to me that GC guy had things wrong. The whole point of monitors is not to enhance the listening experience but to give you a better handle on how your song will sound across a variety of playback devices in the real world, or at least give you confidence that it will sound OK on them all, even the crappiest. To this end they dispense with the frills and give you a pure, undoctored sound that can only be enhanced by real world speakers and headphones. If I've got that wrong, can someone put me right?

#1174581 - 03/07/21 12:12 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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I think goals help the listener and the maker. Back when songs were the focus, i remember an old woman who used to frequent the site. She was writing as a hobby. And it used to piss me off when Id see morons commenting on her mix...she needed a desser on the vocals, and this and that. Are you serious? The poor woman actually annoucned she was leaving the site, and never came back. Something like "You all have been very kind and encouraging, but most of you are real musicians, which I am not (Alot of people were NOT..lol)

What a classy lady too, she never threw mud on anybody, she probably just thought, what world am I living in...

But thats when I first discovered the stupidity of the incessant focus on things that YOU may be interested in but not everybody is.

I always thought forums for SERIOUS SONGS, SERIOUS RECORDINGS were in order, instead of a mixed bag of everything.

#1174582 - 03/07/21 12:21 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Yeah Gavin, Monitors main job is to make you NOT notice them. Designed for a flat response that is considered the true sound, not enhanced by nice stereo equpitment.

But if you sit in a room with no rugs, bad bouncing walls, you can have the nicest monitors in the world, it wont work

Surrouding your work area with acoustic curtains, is something to consider

#1174583 - 03/07/21 12:44 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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The primary purpose of monitors is to bring as much clarity as possible to each and every frequency in the audio mix and give the mixer concise knowledge of what is in the sound...piece by piece. So that mixer can make informed decisions regarding composition, eq'ing etc.

A secondary purpose of audio monitors is to represent the real world sound. I used to record at a studio here in town with 3 studios, a mixing room and a mastering suite. In the mixing room were 4 speakers. I was told that 2 of the speakers cost 6K and the other two cost 1K (Yamahas). The engineer explained that when he was really digging into the song and "splitting hairs," he would listen to the 6ks. When he was finishing up and wanted to hear more of a real world sound, "random car" sound, he would flip a switch to the Yamahas and make adjustments before calling it done. As I sat and looked on, he went back and forth several times.

#1174584 - 03/07/21 12:45 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Yeah Gavin, Monitors main job is to make you NOT notice them. Designed for a flat response that is considered the true sound, not enhanced by nice stereo equpitment.

But if you sit in a room with no rugs, bad bouncing walls, you can have the nicest monitors in the world, it wont work

Surrouding your work area with acoustic curtains, is something to consider


Misc acoustic "treatment" in a bad room will likely not do much.

#1174588 - 03/07/21 01:30 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Gavin...

One suggestion...

In the room where you record, set up for a vocal track.
Test the track by singing a few bars.
Watch the meter and set the gain so that the sound registers -10 to -12 DB at peak. Try to sing in a way that maintains a fairly tight dynamic range.
Solo that track and put another meter on it and set it in record mode.

Watch the readout and see what it picks up when the room is inactive.
Go to the farthest point in the room away from the mic and softly snap your fingers to see if the needle jumps...then louder and louder.
Move around the room.

After doing that you will have a rough idea of how lively the room is and can act on it or not.

If it is lively, put an eq on the track and cut everything below 80 hertz. That will diminish some things like AC noise and computer fans.
Your mic may have a low-cut (high pass) switch that will do that also. If the low cut is helpful, it can be put on busses and the main silmilar to a limiter but for low frequency unwanted noise..

Sometimes "room noise" can be an issue of a mic being set too hot and picking up too much.


#1174589 - 03/07/21 01:43 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Fdemetrio Online content
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Fdemetrio  Online Content
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Martys the new Bob Clearmountain...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReLmGyyRv-M

#1174591 - 03/07/21 02:03 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Sunset Poet Offline
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Houston, Texas
Actually Marty is the same old ClearMind.

#1174594 - 03/07/21 05:51 PM Re: BIAB Effects [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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It seems EZ bass is best used as a virtual instrument. I guess im gonna invest in a midi controller so I can use the play functions like slides .
I think the mistake was assuming the presets would be good enough. Gonna have to play it. It does sound great however you get there
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbfovHA23xs

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