Who's Online Now
7 members (couchgrouch, rpirone, Guy E. Trepanier, Gavin Sinclair, bennash, David Gill, 1 invisible), 847 guests, and 245 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Register Today!
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.

By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
What's Going On
Fox News Reports Stunning Archeological Discovery.
by couchgrouch - 03/27/24 08:02 PM
Wasting My Time
by David Gill - 03/27/24 07:42 AM
Can you save me from me
by David Gill - 03/26/24 07:16 PM
Song available
by JAPOV - 03/26/24 03:38 PM
YELLIN AT CLOUDS
by David Gill - 03/26/24 03:20 PM
"Reliving" the great Lou Rawls!
by Brian Austin Whitney - 03/26/24 01:49 PM
::: The Best In My Life :::
by Bill Draper - 03/26/24 01:32 PM
The show must go on
by ckiphen - 03/26/24 09:06 AM
NYC Motel 1972
by rpirone - 03/26/24 12:43 AM
usic Industry Summitt
by Gary E. Andrews - 03/25/24 11:32 PM
The Rant Arena
by JAPOV - 03/25/24 07:39 PM
Song available
by Raymond Byabazaire - 03/25/24 11:55 AM
Song available
by Raymond Byabazaire - 03/25/24 11:55 AM
Lancaster Festival, Lancaster, Ohio
by Gary E. Andrews - 03/25/24 10:51 AM
Wasting my time
by Rob B. - 03/25/24 03:45 AM
Tom Waits.. What's he building
by Fdemetrio - 03/25/24 12:09 AM
Rick Beato, bad lyrics
by Fdemetrio - 03/24/24 11:23 PM
Inspirational Videos Post Them Here
by Sunset Poet - 03/24/24 11:27 AM
Used to take a Genius to Mix
by Fdemetrio - 03/23/24 11:00 AM
She’s missing but she ain’t missing him
by ckiphen - 03/23/24 08:44 AM
"Broken Places"
by Gary E. Andrews - 03/22/24 07:45 PM
All You Are Is A Lie
by Sunset Poet - 03/22/24 06:55 PM
Pour Choices
by Gavin Sinclair - 03/22/24 05:29 PM
Billy's 30 year overdue song.
by Fdemetrio - 03/22/24 01:30 PM
Make my dreams come true
by ckiphen - 03/22/24 10:51 AM
Stuck Here At The Light
by David Gill - 03/21/24 10:40 AM
Because Easter bunny...
by David Gill - 03/21/24 09:44 AM
"I Miss You, Baby"
by Raymond Byabazaire - 03/21/24 08:39 AM
"I Miss You, Baby"
by Raymond Byabazaire - 03/21/24 08:39 AM
Top Posters
Calvin 19,857
Travis david 12,264
Kevin Emmrich 10,941
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,649
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 9,003
glynda 8,683
Mike Dunbar 8,574
Tricia Baker 8,318
couchgrouch 8,160
Colin Ward 7,911
Corey 7,357
Vicarn 6,916
Mark Kaufman 6,589
ben willis 6,114
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,725
Linda Sings 5,608
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Fdemetrio 4,989
Neil Cotton 4,909
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,670
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,389
Roy Cooper 4,271
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Tom Shea 4,195
Cindy Miller 4,178
TamsNumber4 4,171
MFB III 4,143
Sunset Poet 4,125
nightengale 4,096
E Swartz 3,985
JAPOV 3,973
beechnut79 3,878
Caroline 3,865
Kolstad 3,845
Dan Sullivan 3,710
Dottie 3,427
joewatt 3,411
Bill Cooper 3,279
John Hoffman 3,199
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
Nigel Quin 2,891
PopTodd 2,890
Harriet Ames 2,870
MidniteBob 2,761
Nelson 2,616
Tom Tracy 2,558
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Hummingbird 2,401
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,246
Wendy D 2,235
Judy Hollier 2,232
Erica Ellis 2,202
maccharles 2,134
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,041
DukeWill 2,002
floyd jane 1,985
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Iggy 1,652
Noel Downs 1,633
Rick Heenan 1,608
Cal 1,574
GocartMoz 1,559
Jack Swain 1,554
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
RogerS 1,481
Tom Franz 1,473
Chuck Crowe 1,441
Ralph Blight 1,440
Rick Norton 1,429
Kenneth Cade 1,429
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,409
in2piano 1,404
Stan Simons 1,402
Deej56 1,385
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,301
scottandrew 1,294
lane1777 1,280
Gerry 1,280
DakLander 1,265
IronKnee 1,262
PeteG 1,242
Ian Ferrin 1,235
Glen King 1,214
VNORTH2 1,210
IdeaGuy 1,209
AaronAuthier 1,177
summeoyo 1,174
Diane Ewing 1,162
ckiphen 1,118
joro 1,082
BobbyJoe 1,075
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
9ne 1,035
David Gill 1,031
Tony A 1,016
argo 986
peaden 984
90 dB 964
Wolvman 960
Jak Kelly 912
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 829
ant 798
Juan 797
TKO 784
Dayson 781
frahmes 781
bennash 763
teletwang 762
Andy K 750
Andy Kemp 749
tbryson 737
Jackie444 731
Irwin 720
3daveyO3 704
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
Pat Hardy 692
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Moosesong 668
Katziis 652
R.T.MOORE 638
quality 637
CG King 622
douglas 621
R&M 614
Mel 614
NaomiSue 601
Shandy 590
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
qbaum 570
nitepiano 566
pRISCILLA 556
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
BonzaiWag 523
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 513
goodfolks 499
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
dmk 442
Rob L 439
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
VNORTH 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 399
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Alek 386
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
Ann_F 379
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
java 374
ddreuter 371
spidey 371
sweetsong 370
danny 367
Rob B. 364
Jim Ryan 360
papaG 353
Z - man 350
JamesDF5 348
John K 348
Jaden 344
TheBaz 340
Steggy 339
leif 339
tonedeaf 336
rickwork 334
Eddie Ray 332
Johnboy 328
Bob Lever 328
Helicon1 327
lucian 326
Muskie 321
kc 319
Z. Mulls 318
ptondreau 313
ONOFFON 312
Chris B. 310
trush 304
ed323 297
Ellen M 294
markus-ky 293
lizzorn 291
nicnac49 290
Char 286
ktunes 285
Top Likes Received
JAPOV 86
VNORTH2 45
bennash 38
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
#1174372 02/28/21 01:28 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Top 200 Poster
OP Online Content
Top 200 Poster
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Question for those folks who use Band In A Box. Do you add effects to tracks after exporting to your DAW and, if so, what? I have been in the habit of pretty much leaving them alone and placing all my effort on the vocals or other instruments I add. My assumption was that the BIAB instruments are professionally recorded and might even have some effects added already, but now I wonder if I should be approaching this differently.

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
In reading this, please keep in mind that I am a passionate newbie at best to BIAB.

It has been my very limited experience that BIAB default settings, reverb in particular, lay into a mix pretty well without doing anything else to them in BIAB.
Then, in the DAW when the entire mix is there, they may sound fine or may need some adjustments...but I believe it is better to do it in the DAW...because then you arent compounding changes upon other changes made in the original program.

Regarding exporting...Use BIAB as a plug in so that you are in the DAW when you are using it. It is a lot easier and a lot more seamless and you can ear test then and there._

Side note...
Multi riffs is my favorite BIAB function. I read that it cant be done in the standalone, but if you plug BIAB into your DAW it is available. I highly recommend learning to use it. I am personally able to get better and more natural sounding piano solos using BIAB MULTI RIFFS than I am with EZ KEYS with little effort.


Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
I owned BIAB MANY years ago, before real tracks even. I got rid of it shortly after, i was never able to get good recordings, arrangements, i used to own tascam casette recorder, but at the end of the day, you still ended up with slightly better than live in your basement recordings. Im still rarely happy with my recordings, that may change as Im getting better with the tech.

But Gavins assumption is correct, those samples that are recorded, I believe many are recorded with a mic, in front of an amp, talking guitars anyway, so you are getting the room it was recorded in, along with anything you do, to it after it.

I found with toontracks stuff, that the settings that come as default are really really good to use as is. That's cause they know you are using it for recording, and know that many dont have the expertise to know ie, how loud the kick drum should be, how much verb the snare has, compression effects etc, i rarely fiddle with the settings, cause they know more than I do. They also have a really cool effect, where you can roll off the room. If you slide it to the left, less room actually all the way there is none. all the way to right your in the grand canyon.

But I rarely mess with the settings cause they are so good.

BIAB, i dont believe has the ability to roll off the room, and I do believe the room sound you are stuck with. It may have a dry setting where you take everything off it, and then add your own effects.

But if your not an engineer, stick with what they provide you.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/28/21 02:08 PM.
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
Check this out. this is what I mean,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dig4ilbB4BQ

Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Top 200 Poster
OP Online Content
Top 200 Poster
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Thanks Marty. I do always export everything over into my DAW before making any adjustments. One of the reasons that I updated my version of BIAB a while ago was to be able to use it in my DAW. Unfortunately it just crashes my DAW, so I had to go back to working in BIAB and then exporting, as before. Reverb is one effect that you can see and adjust in the BIAB mixer, although I don't do any of that there, but I was wondering about other effects like compression. I have noticed how dull my mixes sound on more basic playback devices compared to the pros. It's not just my vocals - I would expect that since I'm kind of responsible for that and I kinda suck LOL - but the whole thing. I realize that mastering is an important part of the equation, but thought I'd investigate the mixing angle too in case I'm missing something obvious.
I watched a video showing how to use the multiriff function inside BIAB, so it is possible. As I understand it, it provides a convenient way to generate a whole lot of alternative tracks to audition and choose the best. Is my understanding correct?

Thanks for the feedback FD. Looks like BIAB does have a similar ability to roll off the reverb, either increasing or decreasing the original setting it chooses for you on each instrument.

Fdemetrio #1174377 02/28/21 02:47 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
I owned BIAB MANY years ago, before real tracks even. I got rid of it shortly after, i was never able to get good recordings, arrangements,


So did I and bought it again last year because of the results that MZ was getting with it. It has changed dramatically.

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Gavin

I did not load the BIAB instruments on to my hard drive because they are massive. I only loaded the exe. I attach the factory BIAB hard drive to my computer with USB and then set the path for the instrument tracks in the file path instructions. That might help.

I suggest that you do all your compressing and EQ in the daw when the entire mix is loaded in. I also highly recommend going to youtube and watch some videos on GAIN STAGING. Often people dont do that well enough and it makes a huge difference. The recommendations that I follow are....

Get every track in the mix done.
Delete all plug-ins and effects of any kind. Just raw dry tracks.
Gain stage every track to minus 10-12

and begin mixing from there.

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
Id like to have BIAB just as an idea generator. Im really only a guitar player, i think im a great air drummer, and i do well programming drums, but im not a piano player, not a bass player, not an arranger. be nice to get a harmonica or banjo, or violin or horns etc. it be nice to have it just to get an idea how a full band might handle my song then i could take it from there.

But these days the learning curve is so high, and that I dont want to be a professional BIAB user and spend the next year mastering it

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/28/21 03:05 PM.
Fdemetrio #1174380 02/28/21 03:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Id like to have BIAB just as an idea generator. Im really only a guitar player, i think im a great air drummer, and i do well programming drums, but im not a piano player, not a bass player, not an arranger. be nice to get a harmonica or banjo, or violin or horns etc. it be nice to have it just to get an idea how a full band might handle my song then i could take it from there.

But these days the learning curve is so high, and that I dont want to be a professional BIAB user and spend the next year mastering it


I havent mastered BIAB or my DAW or EZ KEYS or EZ DRUMMER or EZ BASS or HOLLYWOOD STRINGS...But...the time that I am putting in learning these things is very enhancing to my hobby and very very worth it in terms of enhanced enjoyment. And I highly recommend it to anyone passionate about this.

If you "dont need none at that dayum book learnin' anyways"... fine for you...but I suggest not bragging about being desirous of continued ignorance. Never looks right to me.

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 3,973
Likes: 85
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 3,973
Likes: 85
Gavin, I've always been rather impressed with the overall sound you're able to achieve. Perhaps you need to define what you mean by "dull"?

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
Or, is it ignorance believing that everything is taking care of because you own BIAB. Thats ignorance, and its a forced ignorance, anybody who buys now believes they are recording engineers, producers, artists, songwriters.

I dont think its ignorant saying id rather learn how to play harmonica in the next 6 months, than learn how to use a software that makes up harmonica parts. Always wanted to play harmonica, but like most things its time consuming and where is the demand for me playing harmonica.

Touche now?

Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Top 200 Poster
OP Online Content
Top 200 Poster
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Originally Posted by Sunset Poet
Gavin

I did not load the BIAB instruments on to my hard drive because they are massive. I only loaded the exe. I attach the factory BIAB hard drive to my computer with USB and then set the path for the instrument tracks in the file path instructions. That might help.

I suggest that you do all your compressing and EQ in the daw when the entire mix is loaded in. I also highly recommend going to youtube and watch some videos on GAIN STAGING. Often people dont do that well enough and it makes a huge difference. The recommendations that I follow are....

Get every track in the mix done.
Delete all plug-ins and effects of any kind. Just raw dry tracks.
Gain stage every track to minus 10-12

and begin mixing from there.


That's where I keep all the BIAB stuff too. In fact I run the whole thing from there and it works fine. I will check out the videos on gain staging, thanks.

JAPOV #1174386 02/28/21 04:44 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Top 200 Poster
OP Online Content
Top 200 Poster
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Originally Posted by JAPOV
Gavin, I've always been rather impressed with the overall sound you're able to achieve. Perhaps you need to define what you mean by "dull"?

Yes, it sounds OK to me through my headphones, but if I check it out through my TV, just playing from my YouTube channel, it just doesn't pop like the "real" productions do. It's very noticeable when you play one of those before or after my song. It's hard to describe really.
I realize that mastering has a lot to do with it too. I use Izotope Ozone elements and like what it does, especially with my limited technical ability.

Fdemetrio #1174387 02/28/21 04:50 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Top 200 Poster
OP Online Content
Top 200 Poster
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Or, is it ignorance believing that everything is taking care of because you own BIAB. Thats ignorance, and its a forced ignorance, anybody who buys now believes they are recording engineers, producers, artists, songwriters.

I dont think its ignorant saying id rather learn how to play harmonica in the next 6 months, than learn how to use a software that makes up harmonica parts. Always wanted to play harmonica, but like most things its time consuming and where is the demand for me playing harmonica.

Touche now?

I don't believe that everything is taken care of by BIAB, but I kind of feel I have to be all of those things that you mention, so I try to do it to the best of my ability using the tools at my disposal. One day, I'll head over to Nashville and record a couple of songs properly and I'm sure the results will be far better. Also, and very importantly, I anticipate having a blast doing so. However, I can't afford to do that for many songs and BIAB helps give me an idea of which, if any, would be worth the treatment.

I actually play the harmonica LOL. For me, it isn't just a question of how well you play, but how good you are at capturing a recording. I'm not really set up to handle that part well and I'm pretty ignorant about it. One more thing to learn the technical aspects of.

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Originally Posted by Gavin Sinclair
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Or, is it ignorance believing that everything is taking care of because you own BIAB. Thats ignorance, and its a forced ignorance, anybody who buys now believes they are recording engineers, producers, artists, songwriters.

I dont think its ignorant saying id rather learn how to play harmonica in the next 6 months, than learn how to use a software that makes up harmonica parts. Always wanted to play harmonica, but like most things its time consuming and where is the demand for me playing harmonica.

Touche now?

I don't believe that everything is taken care of by BIAB, but I kind of feel I have to be all of those things that you mention, so I try to do it to the best of my ability using the tools at my disposal. One day, I'll head over to Nashville and record a couple of songs properly and I'm sure the results will be far better. Also, and very importantly, I anticipate having a blast doing so. However, I can't afford to do that for many songs and BIAB helps give me an idea of which, if any, would be worth the treatment.

I actually play the harmonica LOL. For me, it isn't just a question of how well you play, but how good you are at capturing a recording. I'm not really set up to handle that part well and I'm pretty ignorant about it. One more thing to learn the technical aspects of.


A great deal is taken care of in BIAB in 2021. it is staggeringly amazing and becomes more amazing each year. Anyone who thinks not is depriving themselves of an extraordinary tool and a fun experience.

Gavin...even good headphones are not very good for listening to what a final mix will actually sound like. They are good for getting all of the parts in place, but then you need some good monitors to hear it clearly. From everything that I have read, the low end of good is the YAMAHA HS series. I got a pair of HS5s for $199 ea and love them. The best thing about them is that they are very good but not excellent and therefore more representative of a random car stereo etc.

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
it certainly is a fun tool and experience, so is playing the guitar.

The reason i say it is a rough learning curve, because there are features on there, that you probably dont even use.

Everything ive asked about, somebody will say there is a feature,,,ie, if you want a chord to hit on an off beat, instead of straight up. there is a way to do that. There is a way to invert chords so that they are playing the chord the way you might have played it on your guitar. Voicings.

There are hundreds of little nuances that it has, but that would have to be learned. Every day they add something new to it, so its an ingoing tutorial. But some are content with just typing in the chords and letting it play, fine too.

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
were only in febuary, and heres what theyve added for 2021

https://www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.htm

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 3,973
Likes: 85
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 3,973
Likes: 85
I just looked up an iZotope Ozone tutorial. Is that your DAW? From the tutorial, it seems you're just tweaking the sound of the overall mix instead of dealing with separate tracks... is that right?

Fdemetrio #1174392 02/28/21 07:31 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
were only in febuary, and heres what theyve added for 2021

https://www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.htm



The magic is the algorithms that produce the various accompaniments and solos. I have spent hours trying to get a natural sounding piano solo from EZ KEYS. What I get is not as convincing as what comes from BIAB multi riffs in a single pass. You have to pick the right style but it is amazing. It is never perfectly what I want, but usually I cant cut and paste the riffs and be happy enough.

JAPOV #1174394 02/28/21 07:42 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Top 200 Poster
OP Online Content
Top 200 Poster
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Originally Posted by JAPOV
I just looked up an iZotope Ozone tutorial. Is that your DAW? From the tutorial, it seems you're just tweaking the sound of the overall mix instead of dealing with separate tracks... is that right?

It's a plug-in for your DAW. You use it to master the track after you are happy with the mix. So yes, it affects the whole mix. There are people who do this for a living. Ozone does a lot of it automatically after analyzing the song. You can accept that or tweak it. For someone who isn't that great at this kind of stuff it's very useful. There is a more complex version for those who understand mastering better, but that would be wasted on me. Martin G turned me on to it back in the SW101 days.

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
Im not crazy about ez piano either. If you're good with midi editing, you can basicly draw your own part, but its hard editing midi, especially if piano is not your instrument. But drums, dont even try to compare BIAB to EZ drums or Superior drummer

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 02/28/21 08:05 PM.
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Top 200 Poster
OP Online Content
Top 200 Poster
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Originally Posted by Sunset Poet
Originally Posted by Gavin Sinclair
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Or, is it ignorance believing that everything is taking care of because you own BIAB. Thats ignorance, and its a forced ignorance, anybody who buys now believes they are recording engineers, producers, artists, songwriters.

I dont think its ignorant saying id rather learn how to play harmonica in the next 6 months, than learn how to use a software that makes up harmonica parts. Always wanted to play harmonica, but like most things its time consuming and where is the demand for me playing harmonica.

Touche now?

I don't believe that everything is taken care of by BIAB, but I kind of feel I have to be all of those things that you mention, so I try to do it to the best of my ability using the tools at my disposal. One day, I'll head over to Nashville and record a couple of songs properly and I'm sure the results will be far better. Also, and very importantly, I anticipate having a blast doing so. However, I can't afford to do that for many songs and BIAB helps give me an idea of which, if any, would be worth the treatment.

I actually play the harmonica LOL. For me, it isn't just a question of how well you play, but how good you are at capturing a recording. I'm not really set up to handle that part well and I'm pretty ignorant about it. One more thing to learn the technical aspects of.


A great deal is taken care of in BIAB in 2021. it is staggeringly amazing and becomes more amazing each year. Anyone who thinks not is depriving themselves of an extraordinary tool and a fun experience.

Gavin...even good headphones are not very good for listening to what a final mix will actually sound like. They are good for getting all of the parts in place, but then you need some good monitors to hear it clearly. From everything that I have read, the low end of good is the YAMAHA HS series. I got a pair of HS5s for $199 ea and love them. The best thing about them is that they are very good but not excellent and therefore more representative of a random car stereo etc.

Thanks Marty. I had heard that I really should be using moirtors. Of course, headphones have the advantage that you can work without disturbing others. I did my homework and got the most neutral ones I could find (i.e. no bass boost as so many have).

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 3,973
Likes: 85
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 3,973
Likes: 85
"""It's a plug-in for your DAW. You use it to master the track after you are happy with the mix...."""

Well, lol... I would say that's the problem.
Whatever plugin you use on your master track creates the "atmosphere" in which you have to make your "mix" sound good within. For example; There isn't a plugin that you can apply to your master track to beef up your drums that won't also effect the rest of the mix. If you're relying on your master track to make your mix sound good then, your approach is backwards. The only thing iZotope analyzes is overall Eq. If you want to beef up the drums then you have to beef up the "drum track". Of course, that also applies to all other tracks as well. Does that make any sense?

Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Top 200 Poster
OP Online Content
Top 200 Poster
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Tony, you have achieved the almost impossible and underestimated me. I know all that. You do your mixing so that you are happy with how beefed up your drums are and all the rest, then, when you are happy with your mix, move on to the mastering. Mastering has long been known as a bit of a black art, which is why I am happy to have as much as possible done "under the hood" by Ozone. During the mix I use a variety of stuff including another Izotope product, Neutron Elements, which provides a dummy friendly approach to EQ, compression, etc.
One good thing about Ozone is that it allows you easily to master for streaming or CD, mostly a matter of loudness, since the streaming services are set to a certain overall loudness.

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 3,973
Likes: 85
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 3,973
Likes: 85
Gavin, lol... please believe me, if I underestimated you then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

You still haven't defined "dull", and "pop" just means hip-hop to me... Try to be specific, what exactly are you hearing in other recordings that you're not hearing in your own? Give us an example. If I'm lucky, I'll learn something here as well.

Here's an example... Gerry Cooper. He manages to create a really deep, rich, dynamic environment to work in that I haven't quite been able to achieve yet... Emphasis on "yet"! smile

Fdemetrio #1174411 03/01/21 02:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Im not crazy about ez piano either. If you're good with midi editing, you can basicly draw your own part, but its hard editing midi, especially if piano is not your instrument. But drums, dont even try to compare BIAB to EZ drums or Superior drummer


The drums are clearly much more intensively editable and disect-able on EZD than BIAB. But if you get the right "feel/style" picked in BIAB and set your fill markers in good places, BIAB does a pretty good job of delivering a drum track on my stuff.

I use the midi keyboard with EZ BASS because my songs are real easy and the bass lines that I play on the midi are McCartney-ish melodies on their own. The important thing for me is the tone and EZB gets a real good tone.

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
Im actually considering getting BIAB, the whole set. One reason is im lazy, Im feeling the daunting pressure of having to record my next group of songs, and I kid you not I have 40-50 of them. Half of them ony have lyrics for the chorus, or have one verse, but I know they are really strong songs if I can ever get them done.

The other reason is the amount of stuff I want to record, in the sake of time, i assume it wold be much faster calling up instant arrangements.. Once done I can take my top 10 and re do them and maybe release my bucketlist CD

But I did want to ask the sons of BIABS here a few questions.

Assuming I had the whole set. How do you manage knowing where to find the right bit at the right time? With EZ drummer i have a folder of all the drum fills I like, or that feel believable, some of them are like somebody trying to win a drum competetion so i avoid those

But id imagine with all the styles, genres, youd have a hard time keeping track of what you deem usable or not.

So help me out sons of BIABS, whats your method?

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/01/21 11:14 PM.
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Top 200 Poster
OP Online Content
Top 200 Poster
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Somebody at BIAB has gone to a lot of trouble grouping the tracks into styles, so that is what I usually start with rather than combing through the thousands of tracks individually. So to begin with you have a group of instruments that match the kind of sound you have in mind, playing in a suitable style. You can tell it to add fills or you can add others from a non BIAB source like EZ Drummer in your DAW of course.
Someone else can probably help you more because my songs are all melody and lyric. They don't rely very heavily on drum fills and the like.
I think your reasons for considering BIAB are spot on.

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
Ive been listening to some of the songs on their showcase forum. Almost always, the ones that sound best are the ones where the singer is good. So it means more that the singer makes it better. And usually if you sing, you are a musician too, usually at some level, others who dont sing, probably bought biab to do the heavy lifting. So you can defintly tell who knows what they're doing or not. Then again, its a software to help songwriters, its not for making them performers.

But I like how some of them samples sound. You dont get many doing straight rock or even pop on there so its hard to judge. Ive heard some Americana and Heartland rock that sound pretty good, but i have to be honest I hate the way the drums in BIAB sound. seems everybody uses the same slapish snare...Id defintly use ez drums.

Im not sure im taking the plunge. But im considering it. It may help me get started, i find im looking at a blank piece of paper...so to speak, but i have so many ideas and full songs I want to do.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/02/21 12:33 AM.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
The styles are categorized by genre, tempo etc but there is a lot of sorting and listening to be done. Like the EZs, if you like something you can designate it a favorite for later recall and use. That is helpful.

And there is usually going to be a big difference in result between someone using it with no personal experience with a musical instrument versus someone who has some. Musical ability matters when you are making music no matter what the medium and tools.

Personally I dont start a song with software. I start with a rhythm guitar and rough vocal as the skeletal structure and make a scratch track to build around. After I get the accompaniment instruments in, I may or may not keep the original guitar.

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
well, if you play guitar, it would stand to reason that when you choose your guitar samples, you're gonna be able to know what sounds reasonable, what sounds stupid. Some just trust whats there thinking nobody will know the difference. Goes for every instrument. Sometimes the solos are overblown, and the user doesnt know it, they think it sounds impressive.

Absolutely matters if you already play an instrument, and/or know music. As I said when you hear a good singer, you know the track is gonna be good, and vica versa

Even in some of the better ones, there are nuances that dont sound right, usually dynamics. When I use EZ drums I could work a whole complete day 24 hours putting in fills that seem authentic. Then when I replay and relisten i find im editing stuff. The Cymbals are always tricky

and Toontrack adverstises that their stuff is for songwriters, "meet your new cowriter" which is simply not true. Nobody is going to write good songs using their songwriting features, lol. You want the thing to write the chord progression, why not let it right the melody too?

My only fear is becoming reliant on it, i have 40-50 songs that were written away from ANYTHING, so I wouldnt be using BIAB to help me write songs. But down the road I dont want to be turning it on and saying ok, lets write a song,,,

Fdemetrio #1174425 03/02/21 09:42 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio


My only fear is becoming reliant on it, i have 40-50 songs that were written away from ANYTHING, so I wouldnt be using BIAB to help me write songs. But down the road I dont want to be turning it on and saying ok, lets write a song,,,


That comes down to personal philosophy. As I've said, a "good song" by definition, must sound good. Whatever arrives at that is fine with me.
Though my lyrics and message may not seem anything special to anyone else, they are my primary focus. The sonics are a vehicle to carry them forward.

With lyrics and message as the primary concern, I may be less concerned than you, as to exactly how the rest of the song was technically determined and created.

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
I agree with you, what is a song?...by defintion it's melody and lyric.

I mean you have to be recording SOMETHING, you're not recording NOTHING, at the end of the day your song is your melody and lyric.

BUT, arrangment, performance, production are all inexstricably linked . Imagine Stairway to heaven just strummed all the way through, none of that beautiful picking. Still be a nice song, but not the same. Imagine a halfway decent singer as opposed to Robert Plant. Still nice, but not the same...or ANY singer for that matter. Sometimes it seems there is only ONE singer to sing a song, you get so locked in on that.

And why is it that when people cover The Beatles, they NEVER sound better, even today.

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
John Mayer said the same thing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6VxBQnQkr0

Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Top 200 Poster
OP Online Content
Top 200 Poster
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
FD, if you are thinking of taking the plunge, your timing is a little off. There is usually a big sale around Christmas and New Year.

I don't think you have to worry about becoming lazy and trying to get BIAB to write the song. I have never done that. I always come to it with lyric and melody already in my head, worked out on the piano or whatever. BIAB provides the backing. It also provides some surprisingly good instrumental solos. I was wary of those at first, but now I give them a shot and if I'm not blown away by them, I do it myself with midi.

I think maybe this is why the Americana demos sound good to you. The emphasis on melody and lyrics in that genre allows BIAB tracks to do their job backing up the singer. Strangely perhaps, BIAB seems to have started out with a strong emphasis on jazz and there are more styles labeled jazz than anything else.

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
Interesting find for me.

I logged into my old cakewalk account, and much like toontracks account button, once you log in, it shows a list of products you own.Seems theyve merged with something called bandlab, which is a program that allows you to record and then publish online.

I just discovered I have cakewalks drummer and bass and piano plug ins. This I believe goes back before toontrack was even invented. The drums look very similar to ez drums where the drums appear in the interface, and the parts can be dragged from the software into the daw. The bass is all midi grooves, which sound terrible, but its another program I now own, that can be used, I guess its similar to buying a new sound pack for ezdrums. I mean they make so many, from 70's funk, to 80's metal, to classic rock, the bass would just be something i could maybe use as a sound, theres not much there to use as a bass sequencer. I could play it on a keyboard if I wanted, or again, just using it as a sound platform. Theres also keyboards. I vaguely remember using this, and it had to be before 2014, cause i had to create a new account since i hadnt since 2014. More like early 2000's if I recall.

But interesting, more toys. Im guessing at the time these little programs were all the rage. Probably where toontrack got the ideas from

Have a look, look familiar?
https://www.cakewalk.com/Products/Studio-Instruments/Drums
https://www.cakewalk.com/Products/Studio-Instruments/Bass
https://www.cakewalk.com/Products/Studio-Instruments/Electric-Piano

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/02/21 01:18 PM.
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
Gavin looks like we posted same exact time, amazing how often that happens, never saw your post

Yeah it sarted out as a jam buddy. I think there used to be tapes called music minus one, and if you played piano, it would have no piano in it and youd play with the tape. Then it got more sophisticated, but I believe BIAB first started as a way to practice, cause blues and jazz music is all about being able to play with an accompaniment, not worrying so much about being playing with a creative band. Its about chops, so it worked very well in blues and jazz, cause youd be ready to step in with a band at a gig if you were well practiced.

I think its use as a songwriters tool was an afterthought, and once they realized people were using it for that, they geared their efforts into making that better as well.

One of the reasons I like the Americana was the guitar sound, some of the rhythmic strums on guitar sound like real guitars, acoustics sound a bit dull. I guess working with it and eqing might help, there is still a flatness of all the music you deal with, but it by no means sounds bad

The dynamics are a problem, if you are coming to an end of a passage or measure, you are naturally playing lower and lower up to that part, or louder and louder to that part, to reach a spot where the dyanmics are different

So one of the things Im hearing is that constantness, same volume all the way through the song, which is not how music is played

Again, not sounding bad, just not what a real band would sound like, and good for generating ideas

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/02/21 02:29 PM.
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,916
Likes: 9
Top 40 Poster
Offline
Top 40 Poster
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,916
Likes: 9
The dynamics can be changed in your DAW with automated vol or gain changes (assuming your DAW can do that).
What BIAB can't do yet (as FD has brought up before) is play a solo based on melody although sometimes it can by accident.
Usually I stitch different parts of that together in my DAW to get the best I can.

Vic


It's never too late? Yes it is, so do it now.

If, given time, a monkey can write the complete works of Shakespeare maybe there's hope for me.

http://store.cdbaby.com/cd/vicarnold2

http://www.soundclick.com/vicarnold

http://soundcloud.com/vic-arnold

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
Yea Vic I was thinking of splitting the tracks up and putting them on different channels, so I can manually lower it live...like the days of tape, or just setting the volume lower on different channels, so when it gets to that part it will be forced to be lower cause it IS lower.

Ive done that with vocals before, sometimes you do a backing vocal and punch in, and for some reason one part is louder than the next, or might be louder in the second chorus than it is first. So splitting it worked. I guess you could also do all your splitting, and then ping pong it all onto one track so that all of it is consensed onto one track, all the volume fixes... of course subtle volume changes are cool.

So i guess there are ways around it, im just worried about having to do all this work, for something that shouldnt be that hard. Its extremely time consuming...recording in general. When lyricists ask for cowrites they have no idea how much work goes into it all

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 03/02/21 02:53 PM.
Vicarn #1174438 03/02/21 03:15 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Originally Posted by Vicarn
The dynamics can be changed in your DAW with automated vol or gain changes (assuming your DAW can do that).
What BIAB can't do yet (as FD has brought up before) is play a solo based on melody although sometimes it can by accident.
Usually I stitch different parts of that together in my DAW to get the best I can.

Vic



have you tried BIAB's "multi riff" function in your DAW?

Fdemetrio #1174439 03/02/21 03:22 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Top 200 Poster
OP Online Content
Top 200 Poster
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Yea Vic I was thinking of splitting the tracks up and putting them on different channels, so I can manually lower it live...like the days of tape, or just setting the volume lower on different channels, so when it gets to that part it will be forced to be lower cause it IS lower.

Ive done that with vocals before, sometimes you do a backing vocal and punch in, and for some reason one part is louder than the next, or might be louder in the second chorus than it is first. So splitting it worked. I guess you could also do all your splitting, and then ping pong it all onto one track so that all of it is consensed onto one track, all the volume fixes... of course subtle volume changes are cool.

So i guess there are ways around it, im just worried about having to do all this work, for something that shouldnt be that hard. Its extremely time consuming...recording in general. When lyricists ask for cowrites they have no idea how much work goes into it all

All the tracks can (and should) be exported individually as .wav files into your DAW to process individually. No need to do all this stuff you are talking about.

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
Yes but each instrument has its own set of dynamics, and if youd like the muted guitar part to get gradually louder until it reaches the chorus, then the only way to do that is to make it louder in that part. One way would be splitting the track, and using different volumes on different channels, to give the illusion of the guitar changing volumes.

Id have to hear the tracks seperately to hear how they sound, it might be that some are a good fit without doing anything others, no. Same thing with ezdrums. I find that as longas you dont try to overkill it, it sounds pretty damn natrual. Then you can adjust your playing volume on the guitar or harmonica as you record.

Just trying to see how to do that with pre recorded instrument parts.

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
I just heard this song, somebody had it on in their car while washing it...

Great pop song, listen to the volume changes, particularly right before the chorus, your trying to build to a power spot, and then back down

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ElORM9O-0U

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
I suggest....

Go with default settings in BIAB. They are well set.
Work in your DAW and drag and drop BIAB wavs onto the DAW tracks
Once all your tracks are there and you are ready to mix, remove any plugins...and gain stage the tracks to a minus 10-12.
Then mix and add the plug-ins back (or re-engage them) keeping your meters around a minus 6 or a little higher as you go.

If you dont know what gain staging is...you are working in a messy environment that is often working against itself.
It will cost much less time to learn what gain staging is and use it , than clean up the messes.

Fdemetrio #1174443 03/02/21 03:48 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Top 200 Poster
OP Online Content
Top 200 Poster
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
FD. I must be missing something. You have an instrument track in your DAW. You want it to grow louder in a certain part. You gradually increase the volume there and reduce it when you want it to be quieter. You don't need to split it into different channels to do that. The volume of a particular channel is not fixed.

Fdemetrio #1174444 03/02/21 03:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio


Just trying to see how to do that with pre recorded instrument parts.


Basic stuff...automation.

Can do it graphically or ride faders.

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
Gavin, yes but how are you doing the volume changing, Vic said there is an automated function the daw to do it. Ive never used it, I have played volume changes to best of my ability. But working with fixed volumes in BIAB might be challenging.

Obviously all the tracks have to be seperate, otherwise when you raise the guitar, the piano would go up too

Just mulling how well gradually changing the volume digitally will fare

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15
F
Top 50 Poster
Offline
Top 50 Poster
F
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,989
Likes: 15

Fdemetrio #1174447 03/02/21 04:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Top 100 Poster
Offline
Top 100 Poster
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 29
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
automated function the daw to do it.

Just mulling how well gradually changing the volume digitally will fare


The automated function is basic. It is "automation."
search...automation and riding the faders.

Fdemetrio #1174448 03/02/21 04:12 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Top 200 Poster
OP Online Content
Top 200 Poster
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 26
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Gavin, yes but how are you doing the volume changing, Vic said there is an automated function the daw to do it. Ive never used it, I have played volume changes to best of my ability. But working with fixed volumes in BIAB might be challenging.

Obviously all the tracks have to be seperate, otherwise when you raise the guitar, the piano would go up too

Just mulling how well gradually changing the volume digitally will fare

In my DAW (Mixcraft), it is simply a question of clicking on the track where you want to change the volume. A little dot appears and you can move that dot up or down to increase or decrease volume by your desired number of dBs. I imagine it's pretty much the same in other DAWs.

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard
Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.


Newest Members
chriscastle, yasir252, cathennashira, Samwise, HappySousa
21,470 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums117
Topics125,714
Posts1,160,942
Members21,470
Most Online37,523
Jan 25th, 2020
Just Plain Quotes
"If one man can do it, any man can do it. It is true. But the real question is, if one man did it, are you willing to do what it takes to do it as well?" –Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
There are no members with birthdays on this day.
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5