JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum Acerbic criticism.

Not long ago we had a decent community here.
Guys would offer constructive and polite support to both novice and regular posters.
The site sadly has degenerated to caustic comments and one-upmanship.
I was appalled at one such comment recently on the Mp3 forum concerning one relatively new members song but sadly not surprised.
This guy in all probability won't return believing his work is unworthy and probably feel demoralised.
OK it's a big bad world out there, he should grow a pair might be the response.
Sometimes we need to walk before we run and everyone needs to learn not browbeaten whenever they try.

Well spoken and needed.

It comes down to how a site is moderated.

I have frequented two types of sites over the years, songwriting and motorcycle ridership groups.

The motorcycle rider groups most often had prohibitions against any kind of personal insult. Some even banned politics and religion as topics. The moderators would step in immediately and shut anything contrary down. As a result the conversations were on topic (motorcycling) and cordial.

I have found that the moderators on songwriter sites, not only do not do any of that, but they themselves throw fuel on fires and pick favorites and sides. The results are inevitable and predictable and bickering and degenerative and self destructive to the site itself.

As for me...I just go with it.

As for the big bad world? Yes, dog-eat-dog applies to a lot of life. But this site is overwhelmingly amateurs who post here and are never going to enter the real market place. There is no reason for this site to be a brutally honest sink-or-swim atmosphere. The idea that it needs to be for the sake of art...is a delusion of grandeur held by some.

Nonetheless, I wouldnt look for anything to change. I cordially suggest that you accept that about it and use it as best you can to suit your wants.

2cents and Happy Thanksgiving

Right idea wrong battle IMO Travis.

If I am right, this is Couch and William.

William is a long time writer and ascap member (maybe somewhere else now), but the first song he posted was © 2004...and he is still writing...so I expect he won't be turned off by a bad review

Now granted Couch does sometimes lack "bedside manners" so to speak, but he's been here since the very beginning and has offered up some sound advice over the years and his writing is top notch.

The solution is to point out where he is wrong when he has a blunt assessment of a song by adding your own viewpoint to the mix.

I think that is the real issue at play. There is no "critical mass" of reviewers actively reviewing lyrics and songs. I know I have spent more time on the Covid threads and anything political over the past several years and not enough time on lyrics or songs

In our "Golden Age" we had lots of action...it is why there are 3 lyric boards. Now there is not much of anything going on...and I recognize I am part of this problem.

IMO the real issue that discourages writers is the lack of reviews.

Only very recently have I posted lyrics here again, and yesterday I did some "zero patrolling" to elevate some lyrics that had not received any comment at all.

Not trying to say "I am better" than others here...just that I have been here since the very beginning (JPF started with a very rudimentary forum before this version and its upgrades) and have seen its periods come and go. When lots of reviews come in, THAT energizes writers. That keeps people interested and wanting to improve.

I am also not saying we should not be civil to one another. I know I'm flawed myself and do stray from being civil at times, but I do try and do so while speaking my mind, so I think I can say that we can, as a group, be better and do better.

Bottom line, I don't think this is a Couch issue, this is not a William's writing issue, nor is it a moderator issue. This is a lack of reviewing activity issue.

John I get your point, I certainly will respond to your constructive and polite critique for which I will thank you in advance.
My daughter in law a US citizen is currently staying with me. Its Thanksgiving and apparently you guys like a good celebration.
Time and wine has interviewed but I shall return.
As for names, you know who you are.
Regards
John

Taking that at face value, there is a different issue.

The median age of regulars here is very high. The younger people, who power the music industry and have an ear to the current pulse are elsewhere.
Brutal critiques may chase off the few that post here, but those dont change the fact that they are elsewhere in the first place. FB groups etc.

Nonetheless for me...even though I will tell a Canadian what I think of their view of an American presidential election...somewhat...bluntly.
...When I do critique a song, I go easy. The primary reason is that I cannot tell you how to write your song in the overall scheme. I can only tell you how I would write it. I'm not going to confuse my knowledge with being truly versed.

Advice...if you ever start a forum and you want to insure that no one feels offended or threatened who engages it...it will begin and end with the moderation. Calls for civility fade into the wind without solid moderation.

Good point Martin. Don't know the median age here, but yes I expect the younger generation is elsewhere among the various alternatives. They are fully versed in today's technology and interact directly ...and bind themselves into loose, fluid affiliations.

I am part of a private Facebook group of some really excellent songwriters ....some still in their teens and early 20s....who are part of Dar William's Writing A Song That Matters songwriter retreats. There is some truly exceptional talent there of all ages. They produce videos, serial videos about various things, actively record stuff, communicate via various means etc etc and some are working musicians...full and part time. These folks are local area artists actually making part or all of their living making music...like Brian's vision of the future where local artists generate a following sufficient for them to make some money...and today's tech allows them to create and distribute content easily

I expect there are lots more out there.

And I do agree moderators are important and should set the tone. I was not throwing that baby out with the bathwater.

Oh and Travis, Canada celebrated Thanksgiving in early October. It is well known we arrive at it earlier given we have so much more to be thankful for

Folks, if/when this type of thing happen you all need to notify myself and Kevin E. I can't check every post so we need your help. Please direct me to the post in question. Gratuitous attacks are not allowed. EVERYONE has to learn how to construct better songs before they can be good. Often unless we are unusually gifted, owe all have written flawed songs, and most of us keep doing it in between the good stuff. This place is a safe harbor and attacks and nasty comments towards an individual is not permitted. Even our political disagreements should follow this policy.

Was it a 2 way heated exchange? (I suspect not). But those can happen, among ALL of us now and then, but that is what Kevin and myself are here for. I have no trouble dealing with Trolls. But when you see it, please let us know. I am glad Travis posted, but I wish he had let me know in real time as it was happening as well as Kevin. Usually one or both of us are here on a given day and I always respond to PMs the moment I see them. Please make sure to include a link to the specific post when you do. I may sometimes disagree, but I am pretty fair to people incl. those I disagree with. But gratuitous attacks are never allowed if I see them. Kevin and I often don't agree on things but I've never seen either of us ignore attacks or something like you just described.

Thanks for bringing it up, let's fix it and get back on track. If there's a history of this by one or more people, please let me know. None of us needs or want it.

Brian

I went back and edited my first post. It was out of line. I thought his response was a little wacky and stick by my second post.

He may have been a new poster here but I read some of his other posts. His is not a small ego. I wouldn't have commented otherwise.

As I recall, Travis, I was the first one to comment and he had another mp3 sliding down the page with zero comments. As a JPF vet, I can say with confidence this is because...

1. It wasn't very good and...

2. Not belonging to a JPF clique he wasn't going to get a mercy post consisting of a half-hearted "Good song! Enjoyed it!"

Those posts (as well as zero comments) are just as demoralizing as a negative but honest critique. I'm used to it and don't care.

Honest, knowledgeable critiques are the only ones worth posting. Anything else is a complete waste of time. You will never improve without them.

Never.

You should be able to listen to your own song and hear whether it's any good. For the most part. A strong, memorable hook with coherent development. Someone else may pick up on something you missed.

But without the hamburger, it's useless to critique the helper.
You've got no song.

And there's no easy way to tell someone that.


Ps...turns out he's got two with zero comments sliding down the page.

Travis, if they're good, why haven't you said so? If not, let's see your insightful critiques. Lead by example.

I don't know who else you are referring to, but I'd like to see an example of me playing favorites with ANYONE or allowing gratuitous attacks on anyone? If people do not call on a moderator to help, how are we supposed to help? There is pretty much me and Kevin. We don't agree on things often, but neither of us has played favorites or allowed one sided attacks. If you are talking about posts where both people are attacking each other about politics or CV, we try to corral that into one or two posts so that it doesn't spread everywhere. I believe in free speech, but not harassment, personal attacks etc. Arguments over ideas is allowed, that is free speech. There are times and places for it on the board, all on the "general board' as far as I am aware. That is the open and non music focused board. Everywhere else should be about music and helping.

I see further down this post that people are mentioning "Couch." We certainly have never babied or preferred him. I used to openly ask why anyone gave him feedback and then complained he didn't return the favor. He's not that guy, historically. For most of the time, he would simply post lyrics. Some would follow him to the end of the world. Others would complain that he wouldn't return the favor and help others. Ironically this complain is unusual because now he's commenting on other people's stuff (long asked for by 100s over the years) and if he doesn't love something now there are complaints about that? He's the ultimate "big boy" so he can handle push back and disagreement. In the past he usually was not the first to engage, meaning if you contact/engage with him, he has the right to respond in kind. I wasn't aware that he was starting issues, that has not been his style and this would be the first complaint I have seen (and it wasn't sent to me) accusing that.

There is the concept of being able to accept actual criticism. If it devolves into "you suck, you're a loser etc." that is wrong and I will stop it. If it is "this line doesn't work, it is repetitive, the word usage is wrong, it drags and goes nowhere etc." are legit lines of criticism. It can be said in a helpful tone, sure, but that is style not substance. Couch is direct, much like I am. I piss people off all the time which is why I don't do reviews very often because I am direct and blunt because that is what I prefer in response if I am trying to fix something. If I just want a pat on the back, I go to my wife, not a message board for improving songwriting, though I am fine if folks want to offer that. It is also how we ended up with 3 lyric boards. Some folks, like Couch and many who have sadly passed on, wanted direct feedback. Others wanted a social place where no criticism took place and we added the second then third boards back in the day to help with that. (Go back and see how they developed). People learned that if you wanted to post on a certain board, you wanted direct criticism. That has changed now 20 years later. But the divide is real and I am fine with it.

If you want simple social commentary, state that at the top. We used to require you to state if you wanted feedback and we're still working on a song, or if it was locked in and you weren't looking for feedback or criticism and people honored it. Why waste time breaking down a song if you are finished with it. Frankly I believe that feedback and criticism are FUTURE recommendations. If people all say the same thing about a problem, I would use that knowledge in my next songs.

But no matter the issue, I welcome concerns about problems or things people are unhappy with. I get them all the time, and we resolve reported issues. I haven't heard from Kevin in a while (he often tells me about particular vicious issues) so please let him or me or both know of any future problems.

You posted while I was responding, but I think you said it well.

0 posts is the most unhealthy situation. I never loved the simple "good song" responses, but no response is the worst result, far worse than someone picking you apart. Couch and I used to butt heads over the 20 years but not really much in the last decade. And it was never over his talent. It was more about him taking and never giving. So of course now people complain when he DOES offer something back. You can't please everyone and some people you can never please. In some respects we are more alike than not. But no one with a clue could ever claim I give him favoritism. Mostly we leave each other alone.

Thanks for editing any "out of line" stuff. I never saw it but am not surprised or shocked. But people need to learn the difference from an actual internet troll and someone who simply disagrees. We have some of both here, but there's a world of difference.

Carry on.

A suggestion Brian

I know a little about forums...i mean the technicals etc...(more specifically Simple Machines) ... and I believe this is possible without much time or effort.

To get more action on the music and lyric forums, re order them to lead with the music and lyrics, and the various arts and crafts to highlight the purpose here. You will need admin privileges to see the various functionality items which I expect you have

Bring the first, general section down and maybe split it and re label it to give it a bit more focus. If the very first thing we see is a thread dealing with the election or Covid or something controversial, that, at least for me is where my eye is drawn to

Now if the first thing I see on top is MP3 and the lyric forums, that is where my eye settles and that is what we are most prone to follow....and newbies will see that this forum is about music and other crafts.

As it is, I think you are burying the purpose and making us dig for new posts in music and lyrics and such.

PS I just looked at the UBBthreads admin guide and it is as I thought. You can easily move things around

I was going to pass on this Brian, but since you called me out.
I'm not going to go through some long winded replay. If you want to see an example...go to your thread about voter fraud and word search "fascist." Scroll down until you get to my first post that contains it. As far as Kevin taking sides in a contentious exchange and fueling an argument with crap??
C'mon, are you kidding? Read your thread.
His loop hole was that he is NOT ACTIVELY MODERATING that thread. That's like taking a dump in the middle of one street in your neighborhood and then claiming that incensed residents who do not live on that street have no reason to be.



I didnt bother you with kevin because I dont really care that much. It was just an annoyance. I used the same barely veiled insult deliver tack by which Kevin labeled me a "fascist" and an "enemy of democracy" merely because I voted for Trump...and returned the favor labelling him simple minded.

As for your inquiry about you...You and I share some wavelengths. National sovereignty. Decentralization of power, personal freedoms such as baking a cake for whoever we want and dont want. Correct me if I am wrong.

What we dont share is the certainty with which you post up theories of world domination with no way to know or verify them by either you or your sources. You claim that all the facts are there..but to me, it's kind of like the bible. People tell me that it is the absolute truth, but I cant make sense of it when I read it. Then I am told that I lack the mental capacity to grasp it.

The point being...the adamant world domination schemes are not a good look for the owner of your site...but you own the site. You get to do it. I dont question it or bring it up UNLESS you call my name.

What you might add to this is a "CENTERSTAGE" mp3 thread, where only admins can post music that is screened and reasonably well produced and executed.

My wife is my gage. If she walks in the room while I am listening to a song posted here and says.."that sounds awful,"...then you can be reasonably assured that people come here, give a listen to something that has little musicality at all and dismisses the entire forum...not to return. "CENTERSTAGE" might give them a different impression.

Yes, I can move things around and have many times over the years. If you recall John 90% of our membership has never visited our sites. Our email list has over 100K people on it, of which only about 10% are registered here, or less. So the boards we used to try and entice more to visit the site (which is now deleted thanks to CDBaby but alas...) We had over 100 million pages of text, files and photos of 25 years of events, lectures, tours, performances etc. that are now lost. (I spend HOURS every day using Wayback machine and other efforts to dig for files here and there to rescue, but it is tedious and only a tiny number of them are retrievable as most were inactive depending on what what going on at a given time and those are not retrievable, nor are media files or original photos).

The layout served the great portion of membership. We still get record unregistered traffic here every day. We have readers, not posters for the most part. There is a vast majority of people who want info but who will never, under any circumstances, register on a message board let alone post. The traffic we get is heavy on the first collection of boards. Always has been. I admit that some, like my own board which I rarely use, need to be moved, but the first 5 really need to stay put.

As for the Lyric and MP3, that was historically a niche portion of the site. Only a tiny % of our membership has ever used it because most are working musicians, and most of the Lyric/MP3 are not working musicians, they are writers and even among those, 85% or more are lyric only writers. The 15% that do more post on the mp3 board. Of those in membership, 10% use the boards. Of that 10%, only about 10% went to events, played at shows, went to chapter meetings etc. So perhaps 1% of 100+K members used everything (think Jody Whitesides or Mike Dunbar, both who rarely come here anymore either). So even though you perceive that the Lyric boards are where the action is, it isn't representative of the entire org at all. So do I serve those who pop in now and then from the 90% or the 1% of both sides who use both or the 10% who are mostly never going to step out in person face to face with other members (our focus over the past 36 years) and who in many cases only write lyrics?

Now to be clear, I am among the 1% who use it all (though I don't post lyrics or music, as I separated that from JPF long ago like Church and State. (I hate it when people use their sites/orgs to self promote). By the way, I think you may have come to an event in the past haven't you? Anyhow, as a "global user" I find most of my own interest is in the first few boards. That may simply be my bias, but traffic suggests I am right.

Many of the lyric only folks do not ever see the rest of the board, they go only directly to the lyric board(s) of their choosing. I recall many people fully unaware we even had a website at all, let alone an organization who were long time lyric posters.

I am not sure how to resolve all of that. I only ever see you, for example, on the first few boards. I do know that after I announce the 2020 Music Award winners, I have to re-evaluate everything. If the various nations we're exist in no longer allow in person events, we're in big trouble. That is where most activity and growth has always happened for us. It's how we sold hat's and t-shirts to survive for 36 years to voluntarily raise funds as well. The days of "membership fees" are over for all orgs. I saw that coming early and never bothered. I want to attract as many artists and writers and industry folks as we can and a fee stops that. I don't (obviously) do this for money, I do it to change lives and the music community. In this brave new world (sadly) they may no longer allow us to do those important face to face things. If so, I need to reinvent.

We shall see.

You can't be serious. If you are in the middle of a two sided fight and someone punches harder than you, is it my responsibility to make sure you win? Though I didn't notice anyone calling you Facist, you do understand that on most things, you and I agree? I get called all sorts of things, but my actual friends here, in the political battle on the board. If you enter into the fray on Covid or Politics, then sorry, stuff is going to be said. I've have said repeatedly that me and Kevin do not see eye to eye on many things, yet I still have him as my only significant moderator because I don't have to agree with everyone. If Kevin called me a Facist (and sounds like maybe he has based on your complaint) I simply laugh it off. If someone called you a Purple Flower would you be hurt? No, because you are so obviously not a purple flower that it only makes the person who called you that look ridiculous to rational minded people.

If he called you that (which apparently he did) that is not his finest moment. I'd like to see him rectify that. I have good family and friends who voted for both major candidates and none of them are facists (though I think some are clueless). So to use that language only damages the argument you want to make and it also makes you a bigot. Not "all" people are EVER one thing based on one action or characteristic. That is so patently stupid I feel worse for Kevin than I do anyone he called a Facist. It's just a dumb thing to say.

If Kevin went to a lyric you posted or a song and called you a Facist or any other kind of "ist" I would take action and have a talk with him. If, however, you both go into a mudpit and start slinging mud, I am not going to be as concerned when you get dirty. If he chases you down around the board doing it, then again, that is a problem and I need to know about it.

In general I will openly say to Kevin, you need a better argument than name calling. If that is all you have, rethink your position. I mean I could argue your points that I don't agree with better than that.

If it continues, let me know.

I posted ALL the music from the music awards which is the best music made by all JPF members who entered, including some message board people who got nominated. Almost nobody checked it out. People mostly want oneway feedback , that is the sad truth. But I do like your suggestion. Thanks.

Brian


Make sure I win??? WTF are you talking about? I never asked you for anything? You called out my name and asked a question and I answered. I didn't call your name. I had no desire to.

You made the assertion that silly sh t doesnt go on here with the admins. I cleared up that it does.

I try to keep my punches up and stay away from derisive personal labels. I dont need you to come to my aid. If I decide to get in people's heads and sling insults...I'm pretty effective at it. Just don't prefer doing it.


In other news...
I've listened to the songs that win your awards. A lot of em arent going to impress a passer by. If you want new blood here, you need to give the passer by a compelling reason to come and stay. Your competitive sites are in the 1000's. A showcase of your most radio ready stuff might be compelling enough to make a stranger stop and listen.

The this-and-thats that you and John are considering are not going to change anything. They are stillborn suggestions. Nothing may. but they arent for sure.

And finally...If you or Kevin dont like me or my opinion...then either one of you can say that you dont want me here any longer...and that will end it. So let me know.

You apparently didn't read anything I wrote to the end, so it is hard to have a conversation. I defended you in your claim of what Kevin said. I called him out publicly rather than speak behind his or anyone else's back. That is something you seem to have a concern about doing, as you stated yourself in a private group message that many of us were included with. I didn't say anything there I haven't said publicly.

As for you not liking the winners of the awards, since they haven't been posted, then I guess you know something I don't. If you're talking about nominees, then you have your opinion. So do a lot of people. Over 4K of them helped pick the nominees and winners. That is from what was sent in by 17K members. We have plenty among them who are full time professional artists and writers, many are Grammy and Emmy and Oscar and Tony award nominees and winners. If you listened to them all and weren't impressed, then you may not be able to be pleased. That's a you problem, not a me problem.

We have 117K members on our email list. Only about 10% have ever posted here, something I have explained over and over. Most people do not like Message Boards. Even when this was at it's busiest, it still only represented mostly non working, non professional (in the literal full time working, full time living from music sense) but about 60% of our member list does nothing but music full time. The other 40% are part time or hobbyists. I think the % here is (as of the last member survey in 2015) 10% full time pros and 10% part time pros and 80% hobbyists. That's self described. Only a few of the message board users entered the awards. A low % of our board members have professional releases as well, with less than 25% saying they have ever had a CD for sale. 90% of the overall list has had at least one CD for sale. So this is a subsection of the membership. Who is it here that is making better music than our nominees? And if they don't enter a free music awards, how are we supposed to process and feature their music? Who are we missing, let me know.

Other boards I have seen based around organizations are pretty small. Which ones are you referring to? The big sites I have seen are often slug fests. You seem to know many better than ours, so it is odd you'd be posting here if we suck so bad.

I actually said your suggestion was a good one on the response above. Either you didn't read it or taking Yes for an answer is not your style. Can't please everyone all the time.

Brian

I read the whole thing. Had it just been the ending I would have simply said thank you.
But you began slamming me in a show for someone else's benefit and then ended on a different note. We all have our shortcomings. Consistency may not be yours.

As for what I said in what I thought was a private conversation with 2 people? No apologies. If you like, copy and paste it public. I'll take credit for it if confronted.
That's what good moderators do? Bring public attention to private remarks made about personal grievances and exacerbate them.

As for your website...It is yours. View it however you like. Guide it however you like.
But my suggestions...since you made personal suggestions to me;

Tell your only other moderator not to call people fascists and enemies of democracy who didnt vote for his choice for president. His job is to prevent that, not facilitate it? True or untrue?

I suggest that you quit using your website as a platform to espouse one-world-domination-theories and the like. Even if some part of what you espouse is correct, the treatises are disturbing to view and undermine your credibility and the way your site is viewed. To a casual observer they appear white-coats-on-the-way. That is not an opinion. It is a fact.

As for me...I'm going to do us both a favor, and just put up an occasional song here and let this day's lovely memory fade to black otherwise. Clearly my opinions are not appreciated and I have drilled down further into idle pointlessness than better judgement should have let me.

But, who's perfect in this world?

Happy day after Thanksgiving! What did I miss?

Here is my viewpoint (just so you know). Marty said he would never accept the vote outcome unless ~ "it can be proven that voter fraud didn't happen". As we know that is the conspiracy theory linchpin. Things like that can be proven to have happened (with evidence), but you can never prove that it didn't happen. The is always another rumor or theory to dispel. He then when on to say that the only outcome he would accept would be for trump to be re-elected. Which led us to this.



I don't know, did I call him a fascist? Plus, we are not really using the classic definition of fascism anyway. We are talking about being run by someone (trump) that is pretty much sociopathic dictator-wannabe supported by his republican enablers in the congress (who are getting what they want).

Getting involved in political discussions here does taint my rep as a moderator, but it is hard for me to stay out when I see someone is wrong on the internet!

I came back to speak to Marty but I couldn't help but see Kevin's comment.

Again, I'm not a Trump supporter.

Kevin, I don't think you know what a sociopath is. Or a dictator.

Trump's an obnoxious, loud mouth New Yorker and nothing more. His party is supposed to support him, that's how the system works. Biden's party supports him. The difference is, the media, Google, Facebook and Hollywood also support him, entities that ought to be neutral. (Except for Hollywood, which has been an immoral disgrace since its inception)



Marty, our differences aside, whoever told you you couldn't understand the Bible because of mental insufficiency was spiritually insufficient.

It takes time, work, the right tools and most importantly, the right disposition. But it's well worth it. With a $100 and a decent used book store,
you can pick up what you need to get started. If you're interested, let me know. I belong to no church but I've been trying to rekindle my love for Christianity. I've got a looong way to go on a personal level.

Another place to start, oddly enough, is Hobby Lobby. You can get an English Standard Version study Bible for $20. A great deal and an outstanding resource.

"Sorry, but when you cry out for fascism, it is hard to avoid the fascist moniker.
I don't know, did I call him a fascist?"

"Sorry, but when you" WRITE THINGS THAT ARE THAT RATIONALIZED, LACKING IN MENTAL CLARITY, CONVOLUTED AND SELF DELUDING, "it is hard to avoid the IDIOT moniker.
I don't know, did I call him a IDIOT?"

That was written to illustrate the point.

Kevin, Your post above is clear evidence that you are not up to the job of a site moderator. Nor are you large enough in character to simply apologize for an insult and move on. I'm tired of going round and round about this. If discouraging the participation of people who disagree with your political views by employing personal insults and derisive labels is one of your perks as moderator ...congrats.

For the benefit of anyone reading this with any mental clarity...I have clarified over and over that if Biden is installed, I will accept that as decreed law but if there is no thorough investigation into the thousands of mail-in ballots, I will not be able to help wondering if the election was lawful. That is simply true.

But "fascism?"

"Trump's an obnoxious, loud mouth New Yorker and nothing more"
I needed a titter to set me up for the day.

Robert,

I appreciate the sympathetic tone of your post. A bit caught off guard.

I was born and raised in Birmingham. People have attempted to "save me" more times than I can remember. Nice people that I liked and think highly of.
A fraternity brother made me a project. My ex-wife brought a parade of people into our house, including preachers to convert me. I have been presented with everything available...I think.

It is a no sale for me.

Yet I have been married to a Catholic believer for 31 years. I have never once questioned her faith. She has never once questioned my lack of it. I have had "believers" show annoyance that we are together and tell me that she should divorce an agnostic. I have had an atheist so incensed by our relationship that she tried to destroy it by urging my wife to consider how disgusting it was not to both be one or the other. That was one for the books.

Yet...my wife is the only thing in the world that makes me wonder if maybe there is something to it. Things like the timing of your post also give me occasional pause to wonder. Being "without knowledge" leaves a person to wonder.

That is where it stands and will stand, but thank you for what appears to be a heartfelt suggestion.

Clearly, But if someone is into national sovereignty and skeptical of globalistic influence...he is all there is.

True dat. I am not a medical professional and don't have the skills to make that diagnosis.

Speaking of acerbic criticism...in yesterday's news conference Trump denounced officials in the swing states as communists and enemies of the state, while once again saying, without any evidence at all, that the election was stolen from him, and all he needs is a judge to properly listen to him without having a political opinion

If he is all there is....

When I said "nothing more" about Trump, I meant he's not an insane, racist, homophobic, misogynist Hitler who will destroy the world. He's just a boorish New Yorker. Which many find refreshing in place of plastic, scripted, PC politicians like Obama and HRC. Obama's interview with Colbert made me want to vomit.


And his supporters aren't deplorable Nazis, agree with them or not.

I just got home from a looong drive. I'll get back to you, Marty.
Till I do...avoid preachers. Some are sincere, many of em make Christianity look bad.

I have to admit, it makes me chuckle seeing a thread like this. Its right up therewith...do lyrics matter, or, why do we write topics....These forums have ALWAYS been this way. They run hot and cold, but the kind exchange of reviews does nothing for anybody, lets be honest.

Here's the real deal, take away the science of songwriting, you either like it or you don't. Most songs here fall into the dont category, if you do like them, its cause they are here. You will never listen to it again .

I have suggested that we have a tiered forum, a section for those serious about pitching, where stronger crits are warranted. A section for noobs or those unsure where they stand. It makes little sense giving a Nashville style crit to somebody who writes poems for fun

Some are here just to open their diary for others to read. Some are trying for cuts. I guess it's hard enough to get enough people to even come here, let alone quantity them

Then there's the whole thing about are we actually qualified to give critiques.

I don't believe there is ever a need to be mean, but what is the real point in posting a song?

You just want a good job pat on the back, do you want to hear your awesome, do you want to her you suck?

I guess songs are written by people, so the people take the pain, the song just lays up there on the forum

That's why friendships ruin honest crits, if they want them....

Nobody is honest here have except couchgrouch, but its his honest opinion, not THE opinion, but its also not needed.

You need to know what the person wants, but again, does "good job" mean anything to you?

You have to wonder if everybody was drunk, what the crits would be like.

Do we post with the Johnny Lang approach?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3tigVYfHVmQ

These critiquing forums are open for "anyone" to critique--thus some due to their own music background/experience are more qualified to critique from a professional position I would suppose. No matter however where a critique emanates, it will have some personal "opinion" along with one's knowledge of the different parameters of a songwriting (lyrics or music composition) for the critique. Thus any critique should be viewed with an open mind and the realization that most are not professionals critiquing in the music industry. So we all should weigh the source, and weigh the attitude.........I personally believe that critiquing can be done honestly without being inconsiderate or condescending--it does however take a little more effort. However, there will always be those with such "thin skin" that even a flowery critique may ruffle their feathers.

Those of us that have been around here for awhile, myself not an original veteran, but about 6-7 years--maybe I'm a journeyman?.......I have learned that certain folks aren't really interested in detailed critiques, or after you've maybe suggested to someone for a couple of years to "give your chorus more identity, or your bridge is really just another verse," you pretty much "give up" suggesting anything to this songwriter as they're determined not to change or heed anyone's suggestions. So yeah, I'm guilty of patting a few backs when I know that critiquing a person is a waste of my time. FDE is correct that it does become more difficult to be honest at times with music friends. Couch is a talent, but IMO could add a little more honey with his constructive remarks. Having said that, I do like serious critics, I miss Colin Ward being around--he is musically wise and a talent. Also, it never hurts to follow up with JMO--given this forum's position in the industry with the open critiquing. But I'm personally not bothered by honest critiques, as I've no question utilized suggestions many times--sure most crits will go in the waste basket, but I do usually give a reason "why" I disagree with a critique if I feel strongly, other times I'll "use it or lose it." But Travis does make a good point about with Newbies splitting our scene, with Newbies, maybe an "eyedropper" at a time with the crits--and at least give them some encouragement. If a song is so bad..............I'm more inclined to stay away, I suppose.

I also year's back suggested a "critique form" and an area where a songwriter could "check" whether they were open for critiques. About seven boxes would all that would be needed, but keep our essay area for remarks to explain why the crits and how certain remarks may be alternate ideas or sugs. When you really think about it, "critiquing to a degree exposes someone's own personality" in the process. We are all different, which is a good thing. But folks can usually "read between the lines" and determine: This person seems to really want to help me.....This person just wants to hear him/herself talk..........This person doesn't know what they are talking about........

One other thought, "don't complain about the forums if you don't answer your colleagues comments, or acknowledge them." If someone spent serious time discussing your work, or even just gave your song a spin, let them know in a timely fashion--it is just courteous.

(critiquing while we're drunk)?.........hmmh, that might be interesting.............

Huh.. you seem to have described Govt. very well.

Let's see, threatening (with apparent proud glee) that one of your first acts will be a total US shutdown for 3 to 6 months. Because the past year of shutdowns were so successful? Or is it because the WHO is pleading with countries NOT TO SHUTDOWN. They say that 180 million people will be put into starvation worldwide with additional lockdowns and that even without them, the damage done has already put them in great harm as it is. They also say at least 75K extra people will commit suicide and OD on drugs just in the USA if lockdowns commence again. They state that Domestic Abuse will continue to skyrocket to all time highs and that includes horrendous increases in child abuse by both parents. They also addressed the damage to children who will bear the emotional scars for life.

I have spoken to not one but 3 different kids under the age of 11 who actually brought up that they had considered suicide because of their fear, missing school and their friends, missing their activities, their parents both losing their jobs and them not having enough food (I took care of that problem). One was only 7 years old!!! And he is considering suicide. He wanted to know where he would go if he did it. Adults who ignore their own vaunted WHO and the pain and suffering of their supposed supporter they represent are doing this to everyone's kids and everyone's futures. It is all about THEIR power. These liars do not even follow their own edicts such as "cancel thanksgiving" and "cancel Christmas" and do not gather in groups more than 6 or with people from out of your household, then they are caught red handed on camera at lavish dinners and parties with dozens of donors and bankers without any distancing or masks. Over and over they are caught while threatening arrest and massive fines for the little people.

THAT is Facism. THAT is Authoritarian. THAT is pure evil. So 180 million people can starve to death, let's pencil that in and then brag about how great our "rule" will be.

These people are sick. And in these examples, these people are all Democrats. And some are also the same people who placed the sickest Covid patients into nursing homes accounting for the majority of deaths in those states and a giant chunk nationwide. All were unnecessary and all, at the very best, showed gross incompetence with murderous results, and at worst were straight up homicides. Why is it only Dems made these mistakes? At best it suggests they should not be the ruling party.

But it gets worse. After a 4 year reprieve, we can once again look forward to wars in the middle east ramping back up.



I am not sure how supposed peace loving lefties can vote for the war machine, but it appears they have the same old war gang back together. The deaths of innocents brought on by this will simply be viewed as a feather in the war machine cap. This is why BOTH parties status quo is indefensible. So you got rid of a loud mouth who wasn't PC to the sensitive privileged snowflakes. Whoopee. Now we get to go back to murdering poor middle eastern people in all our names. Syrians are so excited. Maybe they can ramp up war with North Korea while they are at it. Obama did warn Trump they were our biggest concern. Meanwhile China who has endless dirt on Biden will continue to destroy our economy if any is left after lockdowns finish. Dems have already said they will never allow us to go back to life Pre Covid. What an achievement to all those who actually WANTED this by voting for a demented old man who is already being lined up for replacement by Harris. She couldn't even get a single % in the Primaries and not a single delegate, but folks couldn't wait to put her a heartbeat from, or more likely a brain cell from the Presidency. Biden had one thing right. It is going to be a very dark winter. .