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#1165688 - 06/21/20 12:47 PM Legit or not  
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Everett Adams Online content
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I found a way to pitch songs to a publisher but I had to go through a screener first that would only forward songs that the screener thought strong. But the catch is that the publisher needed sheet music to consider each song, plus the quality demo and lyrics. Now the sheet music could be supplied for $50.00 per song.(I'm not sure who was set up to provide that) I don't ever remember being asked for sheet music by a publisher before, because most people don't read music, they use their ears to determine if a song was any good. I'm wondering if this is not just a ply to get paid to listen to a song. Every scheme in the book has been tried to get money from songwriters, is this just another one.

#1165689 - 06/21/20 12:52 PM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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John Lawrence Schick Offline
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Yep, definitely a scam Everett. But an original one.

Best, John smile

#1165725 - 06/22/20 12:27 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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Fdemetrio Offline
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You can make your own sheet music using many different software programs out there, so if you told them you will provide the sheet music yoirself, im guessing the deal would be off lol

It is interesting, they're going backwards in time to when sheet music was actually important. They assume people can get recordings much easier these days so maybe they can pull the wool with the sheet music gag...

It seems the music business will always try new angles on old scams

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/22/20 12:28 AM.
#1165733 - 06/22/20 08:00 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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No question it's a scam. There is no modern publisher alive that would ask for sheet music unless they were publishing the song and planned on having a selection on something like music schools, but that would really only be on major hits. Unless they are putting it on their piano rolls, or gramaphone records. You might have found someome living in the basement of the old brill building, writing for Tin Pan Alley and waiting on Al Jolson to make his big comeback. But I don't know if the cancel culture would allow ol' Jolie to get back out there, "blackface and Mammy" are pretty out of favor these days.

In all seriousness, yes this is someone just finding ways to make money. There is soft ware that does that, but aside from an interesting thing to have in a frame, I can't think of one useage for it. I'd personally pass. Once, decades ago, I met a woman who did caligraphy, who became a big fan of mine .One of my songs she really liked, (oddly enough, the one up for a Blues Award right now) and she did a very nicely lettered califraphy on the melody notes of the song. Was fun to have on the wall. Outside of that, I can't think of one in the music business today. If you wanted to have fun, send them a rap song and have them do sheet music on that one.

MAB

#1165734 - 06/22/20 08:08 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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If someone previously unknown to you approaches you from out of the blue about your songs...

It's a scam designed to trade on your dreams and aspirations in order to juice you for some fees.

#1165787 - 06/23/20 05:19 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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I never went for it and never would. Just too many scams to take your money. If they were a legit publisher why would they cause a writer expense before they even looked at your song. After they listened they might try something like that and have a better chance of fooling the writer. Thanks all for confirming my suspicions.

#1165791 - 06/23/20 09:11 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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Everett,

It's also sort of a way to test the waters as to how much you'll spend on your music. You have to sort of understand what has happened to publishers over the past 20-25 years, to understand why things are the way they are.

In the end of the 90's into the 2000's as the Internet came into being the ability to make money from songs, began to dissapear. The "old days" of getting cuts that would pay a few hundred dollars here and there, (split between writers and publishers) began to go away. First with illegal file sharing and then later with streaming services. It would take more and more streams to be able to amount to any money. Then the ability and desire of people to no longer listen to full songs, became part of the equation. People would listen to a few seconds of songs and then move on. The amount of platforms, Spotify, Pandora, etc began to explode, along with the overall Internet, writers, artists, songs, etc. By the time the midway through the first decade of this century, publishers realized that those days were gone and they would have to monetize what they did in other ways.

You also need to remember that millions of writers and artists are always trying to get their music "out there." So they actually have every day, people trying to send them songs, if you were a publisher, you couldn't go anywhere without someone trying to give you or mail you a CD.
So the people that USED TO BE publishers, became fee for service song pluggers. And many, many people formed companies like "film and television libraries" compiling thousands upon thousands of songs. And being paid for all of those.

MOST SONGWRITERS are CONVINCED OF THE VALIDITY OF THEIR SONGS. Their friends, families, etc. tell them HOW GREAT THEY ARE, AND THAT SONG WOULD BE A HUGE HIT IF JUST THE RIGHT PEOPLE HEARD THEM, AND THEY JUST NEEDED TO GET THEM OUT THERE!" So many, many people would gravitate to any sort of lifeline, just like the old days of "WE WILL PUT YOUR POEMS TO MUSIC...." OR "IF YOU CAN DRAW THIS YOU MIGHT HAVE A FUTURE AS A COMMERCIAL ARTIST" things that used to be in the backs of magazines.

At the same time, "legitimate artists" quit listening to songs altogether, because they were under pressure from their own producers, publishers, investors, to not go outside of their own companies for any songs. And the main body of songs would be written or co-written by the artists themselves to keep any potential income, in house.

So the struggling publishers would take whatever they could to bring income in. Many had studios and were trying to pitch their demo services. They have various levels of legitamcy and like anything, the ROAD TO HELL IS PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS. They would hope that through the thousands upon thousands of songs, you would find that one or two diamonds in the rough, in some young artist or a writer with higher potential, and the rest pay for the freight on producing those artists or songs. But to be 100% honest, the vast vast amount of songs trying these processes, are not that good to begin with. As a matter of fact, finding one that holds your attention for a few seconds is amazingly hard.

If someone spent actual money on sheet music, that means they are not attuned to the actual music business. And they will do pretty much anything. The people that do that,get a series of things like emails, messages, or actual letters that tell the writer "We see promise in your writing, and believe you need to re-record your demo to make it more pitchable." Then there is the "we'd like to include this in our "producer pitch" compilation, our "film and television library collection (we hear this as a "television or movie pitch," is code for "WE have NO IDEA what to do with this song, but if we dangle the carrot that it can be featured in some TV thing, you'll pay even more money. " Cause ANYTHING COULD BE FEATURED IN A MOVIE OR TELEVISION. Most of those are back ground music. And most of them are music only.)

I am hesitant to call things a "scam" as much as I believe they are "Schemes." I don't think people intend to defraud, as much as give dreamers some false hope. I also will bet you that if you knew some of these song pluggers (which I do) you would see that most time they know NOTHING ABOUT MUSIC, and they would play you songs they believe are HITS, and you would scratch your head wondering what in the world they are listening to. Music is subjective, and what might "set the world on fire" to one person, might fall flat with someone else.

BUT (THERE IS ALWAYS A BUT!)

So that is more or less the deal. As has been said, anyone that approaches you out of the blue, is often going to be questionable. Now there are caveats to that, and you yourself might be in a different category. Most music is done by referall, and if you have songs "out there" as you have in your church songs, your reputation might have proceeded you and I could even see that from the point of view of a publisher, that might be pitching to Church hymnals, or choir arrangements, that they might need sheet music. That could be somewhat legitimate. But you would have to investigate the company and what their intention would be.

For the most part, it is just a way to make money and that could lead to more money. Again it's just something you have to use your inner gut on. As always, if I was dealing with any company, I'd ask for contact info on someone they represent. If you could privately talk to some people who have worked with them, you could get a sense of what they are about. At the end of it all, the music business is actually a group of pretty small circles, and you can find out information if you know where to look.

But that is about what is going on. None of it is really attractive, but most is like the WiZARD OF OZ, where you have to pull back the curtain and see what their intentions are.

MAB

#1165833 - 06/24/20 07:25 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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You are right, there are all kinds of scams and schemes out there to take your money. Even demo studios, but if you get a demo done, at least you can listen to it, but sheet music to someone that don't read music is just a piece of paper with symbols on it. I've had a good number of demos done, some expensive and some cheap, but I've had just as much good reaction on cheap demos as I've had on expensive ones. If it is country or gospel, the lyrics speaks to the listener more than the production. If the message or story in the lyrics touches something in the audience, that they can relate to, the music just becomes the back ground that carries the story. Sure, the music can set the mood, but the message is what feeds the soul.

I pretty much gave up writing secular songs because the field was so over crowded that the chance of being heard was next to impossible, even though I had a song played twice on the Today's Show, how that happened is still a mystery to me, seeing I never pitched it to them. When I became a Christian, I felt more comfortable writing Christian songs, what I was going to do with them, I did not know. That field of music was pretty crowded too, with a handful of people pretty much controlling what got heard. I can't recall how I got connected with CCLI, I barely knew that they existed, but I believe they contacted me to pitch a few songs to them, it cost noting to do so, so I did. I didn't have that many gospel song ready at the time but the few I sent actually got used and I received a few dollars royalties. Then I was told to hold off sending any more as they were being overwhelmed by people sending them songs, CCLI was fairly new at the time. So I thought it was just another door closed. I put it behind me but I kept on writing and demoing gospel songs. A few years passed and they got in touch with me again and invited me to start sending songs again. So I did, I now have well over 500 songs registered with them and I'm still adding. I am not making a fortune or getting rich, that is not my goal in life, but I am actually making more money than I am spending, I think for the first time since getting into songwriting. My songs are being used in churches in the US, Canada, UK, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, S Korea and Africa. CCLI does spot checks with churches much the same as PROs does with radio stations, if they happen to use one of my songs that day, I get paid. CCLI only checks churches every one to two years, while PROs check radio twice a year. I am pleased that my songs are used and who knows how many will be touched to make a decision for Christ. I did get a letter from a lady telling me that her husband got saved on his death bed by listening to a tape of my songs, that did my heart good. Worth more than money to me that was.

I have some good country songs that I don't even bother to pitch because it is like tossing a rock into an ocean, doesn't make much difference to the ocean, but gospel can make a huge difference in a person's life and his/her life in the hereafter.

#1165840 - 06/24/20 11:31 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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Marc Barnette Offline
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Everett,

It was because you were in the Christian marketplace that I mentioned the part about Sheet music being wanted. There are many hymnals, songbooks, churches that play music from many sources, and of course, they have services on Sundays and usually many other times a week. So for that, I could understand why they might ask for sheet music. If they were include in song books or anything else. I once had a preacher out of North Carolina do a sermon built around one of my songs which actually was not Christian, it was country, but he incorporated it into his message. They brought me up to perform the song but the band didn't use sheet music, they used Nashville number charts, so I didn't need any sheet music.

On the overall question that you asked, "Was it legit to ask for sheet music?" I have never heard of that. And yes, sheet music is almost never used now unless it is in conjunction with some sort of printed music, like hymnals, song books or special events, like a band or orchestra needing them. Other than that I just don't have any answer for you. But if you have dealt with these people before, you can better decide if it's worth it. If push came to shove and they needed it, as has been mentioned here, there are programs that do sheet music, you might just get it done and supply the sheet music for them to hear your song. Other than that, you just go on what you have dealt with before, or whatever works for you.

MAB

#1165842 - 06/24/20 12:06 PM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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Sunset Poet Online content
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Sorry for being jaded, but there is a lot of evidence in the world to support a jaded viewpoint.

I suspect that the sheet music is the "one missing piece" that could possibly unlock the door to greater glory. And...btw...there will be a slight charge, due immediately. and before the glory arrives.

#1165859 - 06/25/20 03:06 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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I find it funny how quickly people jump to conclusions and call something a scam without any background information. I can provide some background information since it's my company that is being talked about, the same company that provided a FREE song production for Everett a few months ago. You're welcome, by the way.†

As most of you know, we're an online music production company most and foremost. However, recently we started to provide a free pre-screening service for a few publishers and libraries and a free song submission service to songwriters. Yes, FREE. I don't know any other company out there that provides this for free. Most charge a per†song fee or an annual membership fee, or both. We don't. Why you may wonder.†

Well, we do this free of charge for publishers and libraries to build a relationship with them, create value and hopefully be able to charge for the service in the future. If that doesn't happen, it will pay off in some form or shape, be it through intros, or through help with getting into publishing ourselves. Fundraising for our next capital raise, etc. etc.†

We do this free of charge for songwriters because, first of all, we don't believe in "pay for play" and secondly, it builds a relationship with songwriters and hopefully, if and when a songwriter who uses our submission service requires professional music production services, he/she may favor us over a competing business. As we all know, you have to give before you take.†

You all know, most publishers (especially those worth pursuing) have a strict "no unsolicited submissions" policy. We happen to have a relationship with a few publishers and can provide songwriters with suitable material a foot in the door to these publishers and make their submissions "solicited".†

Having said all that and going back to the original question, yes, we do require the sheet music. We also require the lyrics sheet, uncompressed wav files of the song, the instrumental and all stems as well as confirmation that the submitter is legally authorized to submit the song(s) and owns all rights, including the publishing. This isn't something we came up with, but our publishing partners asked us to provide.†

Here is why: More than once, it happened that we forwarded a song, the publisher likes it, reaches out to the songwriter to sign a publishing contract only to find out that he/she actually doesn't have the stems, doesn't have the sheet music, doesn't own the publishing rights, etc.†

What a massive waste of our time, the publisher's time and the songwriter's time. So, we all decided to cover ALL bases during the submission phase to†avoid this in the future. I admit, the sheet music is rarely needed, but it is needed often enough, one of the partners we work with ALWAYS wants the sheet music.†

Yes, we do provide a service to create the sheet music but, we don't care where the sheet music is being created and even prefer if the songwriter creates it him/herself. To be honest with you, creating sheet music of a song we did not create is a royal pain and super time consuming. Considering what we charge for that service, it certainly isn't worth our time and we'd be much happier (and more profitable) spending that time on production projects, but some clients asked us to transcribe their songs, so we added it to our services.†

To finish this mini rant, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask a songwriter for sheet music in the first place. I mean, come on, you write music, hoping to sell it and don't want to (or can't) provide the "manual" to your piece you want to sell. Maybe that's just me, but when I still actively wrote songs (many moons ago), I always created the sheet music for the songs I ended up recording professionally. I obviously didn't bother for the demos and scratch tapes, but I had sheet music for EVERY SINGLE PROFESSIONALLY PRODUCED song.†

One more thing I can assure you is, when a professional songwriter orders a song production on our platform, the songwriter provides us with a work tape, the lyrics and the sheet music (or at least a chord sheet) while new songwriters or those who just write music for fun don't.†

So, maybe some publishers/libraries we work with use the chord sheet request to separate songwriters who are serious about their craft from the ones who aren't? I don't know, just a theory.†

This question goes to John and Marc, both of you are professional songwriters, as in make a full time living with it (correct me if I'm wrong). Even though you stated that sheet music isn't (always) needed, do you have the sheet music of the songs you actually place? I don't want to put any words into your mouth and I certainly can't tell if you're being truthful with†your answers, but I would be surprised if the answer was "no".†

At the end of the day, yes, there are a whole lot of sketchy players in the music industry (or any industry highly in demand). But not all of them are. Calling something a scam without knowing the company and without knowing the background of why something is being done the way it's being done is simply wrong. And honestly, I explained the above (abbreviated in an email) to Evertt but I guess it's the typical case of "I just hear what I want to hear". Probably the reason why so many songwriters are so "CONVINCED OF THE VALIDITY OF THEIR SONGS" as Marc rightly put it.†


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Contact me at chris@tunedly.com
#1165862 - 06/25/20 05:51 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Chris Erhardt]  
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Originally Posted by Chris Erhardt
I find it funny how quickly people jump to conclusions and call something a scam without any background information. I can provide some background information since it's my company that is being talked about, the same company that provided a FREE song production for Everett a few months ago. You're welcome, by the way.†


I only quoted a small part of your reply Chris...

I have had work done by Chris and his company for a few years now and have found him to be one of the most honest individuals that I Know (albeit from a distance).

He did the FREE demo as he said for Everett in the lyrics comp that I set up (and it was a full production, not just a guitar vocal track), and prior to that Chris, his musicians and singer all refused to take any payment from me, for a track of a song that my Helen wrote, and I wanted to play at her funeral, God Bless her...

I too saw the FREE promotion offer on his website, and have sent a track, although I expect no favors as I would not want any. In regards to the sheet music, I went onto fiverr.com and have had it done for just $12 so I guess
that is $12 that Chris will not be getting...lol

I do understand about the scammers who at times visit us on this site and elsewhere, but in this case those of you who talking about this being a scam are all wrong...IMHO

And by the way, I don't think Chris or his company approach anyone out of the blue... Mosty they offer a free contact publishing opportunity service to their customers and to anyone else who visits their site., but it does have rules. Why not.. you have to separate the wheat from the chaff....

When you submit your track, the submition form will not let you submit unless you provide a lyrics sheet, professional song, sheet music, have a backing track and click yes to having stems etc...And as its FREE, why expect them to do the donkey work. They are not as far as I can tell publishers themselves, and I expect they are too busy producing to want to be publishers or to be sheet music transcribers etc lol.

If I am wrong, I appoligise...

God Bless and have a little faith

Roy

Last edited by Roy Cooper; 06/25/20 06:40 AM.

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#1165864 - 06/25/20 07:39 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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Questions come to mind?

Everett....
Did this same company do a full song production of one of your songs for absolutely free? If so, these people did not approach you from "out of the blue," There was a relationship in place in which you derived benefit.

If so...could you provide a link to the song?
If the production was truly good, that alone was worth more than 50 bucks. On my last recording, I did the GV tracks at home and paid for other tracks from an online service and then did my best to mix and master at home...and still spent almost $400-$500.

Chris...
Why did you provide Everett a fully produced demo at no charge?
What specifically is your business?
What percentage of the people who your company provides sheet music to you get placed with publishers?
What percentage of those placements get recorded for anything,...song, movie, tv show, commercial?
What percentage of people that you provide sheet music to are actually compensated?
Is there anything that I might have heard of?


This has provided one of the few opportunities for an amateur like me to ask questions of someone who actually provides these services and get a first hand response.
Thanks for that.

Martin

#1165865 - 06/25/20 08:19 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Sunset Poet]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Questions come to mind?

Everett....
Did this same company do a full song production of one of your songs for absolutely free? If so, these people did not approach you from "out of the blue," There was a relationship in place in which you derived benefit.

If so...could you provide a link to the song?
If the production was truly good, that alone was worth more than 50 bucks. On my last recording, I did the GV tracks at home and paid for other tracks from an online service and then did my best to mix and master at home...and still spent almost $400-$500.

Chris...
Why did you provide Everett a fully produced demo at no charge?
What specifically is your business?
What percentage of the people who your company provides sheet music to you get placed with publishers?
What percentage of those placements get recorded for anything,...song, movie, tv show, commercial?
What percentage of people that you provide sheet music to are actually compensated?
Is there anything that I might have heard of?


This has provided one of the few opportunities for an amateur like me to ask questions of someone who actually provides these services and get a first hand response.
Thanks for that.

Martin


I cannot answer on behalf of Chris Martin.

But I set up a competition where JPF would post the lyrics for a Christmas song. I had asked Chris if he would do the production and he said YES at no charge.
Chris would have one of his producers (unbiased) select the lyrics they liked best and Chris would have his demo studio do a full production for FREE as a Christmas gift to a member of JPF.

No one benefited except Everett. They even assigned all copyrights to Everett as if it was WFH.

this is the link to the lyric comp topic on JPF with the youtube of the finished track.

http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthr...the-final-demo-in-video.html#Post1160068

I even did the youtube video free of charge, purely because I could. The images I used were paid for by me for another song that I did, so I reused them on this occasion.

God Bless to all

Roy

Last edited by Roy Cooper; 06/25/20 09:09 AM.

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#1165866 - 06/25/20 08:49 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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" find it funny how quickly people jump to conclusions and call something a scam without any background information" - Chris
My reply came from Everett's first post Chris. With that limited info, it sure sounds like a scam. From the first post, considering all the scams in the music industry, I would still discourage anyone from using this company. Other than my classical piano company, which sells sheet music, but not sound recordings, I've never encountered publishers wanting sheet music. I doubt most songwriters today can make sheet music of their work, i.e., melody line with lyrics, chord symbols, and piano accompaniment. Now that Iíve read your post, you do seem sincere. But sheet music was more fitting during the Tin Pan Alley days, not the 21st Century.

"This question goes to John and Marc, both of you are professional songwriters, as in make a full time living with it (correct me if I'm wrong). Even though you stated that sheet music isn't (always) needed, do you have the sheet music of the songs you actually place"- Chris

Yes, I write everything out, but have never been asked for it. It's just the way I work.

Best, John smile

#1165867 - 06/25/20 08:59 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
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[quote=John Lawrence Schick
With that limited info, it sure sounds like a scam.
I would still discourage anyone from using this company.

Yes, I write everything out, but have never been asked for it. It's just the way I work.

Best, John smile[/quote]

I don't understand John how you can say those statements in your reply... or have I misunderstood your views.

God Bless

Roy



Last edited by Roy Cooper; 06/25/20 08:59 AM.

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#1165868 - 06/25/20 09:17 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Roy Cooper]  
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Originally Posted by Roy Cooper
[quote=John Lawrence Schick
With that limited info, it sure sounds like a scam.
I would still discourage anyone from using this company.

Yes, I write everything out, but have never been asked for it. It's just the way I work.

Best, John smile


Quote
I don't understand John how you can say those statements in your reply... or have I misunderstood your views.

God Bless

Roy


You left out the first part of my reply Roy which was "My reply came from Everett's first post Chris. With that limited info, it sure sounds like a scam".

From just reading Everett's first post, it definitely sounds like a scam. Then after reading Chris' post I stated "Now that Iíve read your post, you do seem sincere".

The only way I can understand a publisher wanting a music chart (not sheet music), would be if they had intentions of making a demo themselves. So, Iím not sure what bothers you about my honest reply Roy.

Best, John smile

#1165869 - 06/25/20 09:19 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Roy Cooper]  
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Roy

My questions were for Everett and Chris.

I understand and appreciate that you had a nice experience with Chris and want to return the favor, but that doesn't answer the broad questions about firms that provide these services...which come to mind.

And rather than the usual crew (me included) surmising what we think is behind the curtain...this opportunity provides an unusual chance to ask someone with first hand knowledge.

That is the kind of rare information that one comes to these songwriter sites, hoping is here.

And John S replies are completely understandable and reasonable given what Everett and then Chris presented.

#1165874 - 06/25/20 09:30 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: John Lawrence Schick]  
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[/quote]

You left out the first part of my reply Roy which was "My reply came from Everett's first post Chris. With that limited info, it sure sounds like a scam".

From just reading Everett's first post, it definitely sounds like a scam. Then after reading Chris' post I stated "Now that Iíve read your post, you do seem sincere".

The only way I can understand a publisher wanting a music chart (not sheet music), would be if they had intentions of making a demo themselves. So, Iím not sure what bothers you about my honest reply Roy.

Best, John smile [/quote]

Not bothered John, just seemed to me that the statement 'I would still discourage anyone from using this company' was as read unfair.

they ask for the chord sheet of the song... is that sheet music... I don't know..lol

Maybe I read out of context John.. appoligies and moving on...



Last edited by Roy Cooper; 06/25/20 09:57 AM.

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#1165876 - 06/25/20 09:36 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Sunset Poet]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Roy

My questions were for Everett and Chris.

I understand and appreciate that you had a nice experience with Chris and want to return the favor, but that doesn't answer the broad questions about firms that provide these services...which come to mind.

And rather than the usual crew (me included) surmising what we think is behind the curtain...this opportunity provides an unusual chance to ask someone with first hand knowledge.

That is the kind of rare information that one comes to these songwriter sites, hoping is here.

And John S replies are completely understandable and reasonable given what Everett and then Chris presented.


Martin, there was no 'returning a favor' involved. I was commenting from my own experiance of a company who in my opinion was being slated for nothing worthy of consideration.

I do understand what you mean 'the broad questions about firms that provide these services' and I agree.

Still what is 'said is said and what is done is done', (good idea for some lyrics there), so I will be moving on

God Bless

Roy


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#1165877 - 06/25/20 10:05 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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Humm,
Over many years of pitching songs I have never been asked for Sheet Music. Just a Lyric sheet and a demo recording. If a song gets recorded and released someone else creates the sheet music if there is a demand usually much later after the release. If a publishing contract is issued the publisher will make provisions for the sheet music to be created. Hard to say how many songs have been recorded and released before any sheet music is created. I have songbooks by different artists where their is complete music, lyrics with sheet music. I imagine all if not most were created after the fact.


Ray E. Strode
#1165878 - 06/25/20 10:15 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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"If a publishing contract is issued the publisher will make provisions for the sheet music to be created" - Ray

I agree Ray. Creating sheet music for sale is a specialized skill. Thereís a fine line between making it easy to play and too difficult for many to play. I was doing some sheet music in the past, and often was told the piano accompaniment was too complicated. Make it simpler. So yeah, thereís kind of a formula for creating sheet music. Best let the publisher do that - if it's ever needed, which I doubt.

John smile

#1165879 - 06/25/20 10:16 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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Hi All:

I've been following this thread since Everett's first post. Initially, the idea presented "swims upstream" from what most of us have experienced here at JPF and other music sites. It is very unusual for a publisher, artist or producer to require a full-blown combination of sheet-music and lyrics these days... but the practice was pretty common about twenty years ago to ward off amateurs and other "time-wasters."

The advent of the Internet has brought about many changes. Now, most "potential clients" require only a lyric sheet and an MP3 recording. (Some want the chords with the lyrics... but few want the sheet music.) The more demanding requirements usually occur when the screening process determines that the song or composition being "pitched" is acceptable to the client or website involved.

Chris, I hope we are not seemingly ungrateful for the opportunity to use a new platform with requirements we are not used to seeing. We (as a group) are generally very skeptical because we have been bombarded with "baited hooks" so many times before. When Marc (our resident Nashville Insider) confirms our suspicions, we are even more pre-prejudiced about what appears to be something dark and murky. If I read your reply correctly, you still would accept a lyric and chord sheet?

The conflict between us is widened when we hear old-timers here (like Roy Cooper) defending you and your platform. John S. is probably the most successful here at creating income from compositions that are scooped up quickly by advertisers, documentary creators and movie makers. He has experience with Libraries and all the quirky ins-and-outs of knowing which ones are legitimate and which ones lure us out onto thin ice.

So Chris, please forgive us if we appear to be throwing the "Baby out with the Bath-Water." Welcome to JPF and please feel free to explain more about how your organization works and makes money. Sorry if we seem ungrateful.

Best regards and wishes for success in this ever-changing business.

----Dave Rice

#1165880 - 06/25/20 10:27 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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"This question goes to John and Marc, both of you are professional songwriters, as in make a full time living with it (correct me if I'm wrong). Even though you stated that sheet music isn't (always) needed, do you have the sheet music of the songs you actually place? I don't want to put any words into your mouth and I certainly can't tell if you're being truthful with your answers, but I would be surprised if the answer was "no"."

Hello,
I can't speak for John, but in my case, no, sheet music has never been asked for in the songs I've placed. But unless songs are a major hit, in a collection such as songbooks, etc. sheet music is never called for. I have had on two occassions had sheet music included on my songs, but was for a specific purpose, used in conjunction with a teaching piano song book, and that was done by the publisher of the song book. In the Nashville industry mostly country, there is no need for it, again, unless it becomes a major hit and is used in compilation song books, or in teaching uses. And if that is needed, usually the publisher provides it, but almost always after the fact.

As I had said, I have never heard of it outside of things like Christian music, or hit songs, again where song books, teaching instruction manuals, etc. might be involved. But again, that is usually done after the fact. I had never heard of an example where a publisher was asking for it before listening to a song. That was where I was coming from. Each publisher, song plugger, whatever is going to have their own requirements in their own needs. It's why I really don't like using the term "scam." and I probabaly should not have used it in this case without knowing more information. So I apologize for doing what I tell other people not to do, jump too quickly to conclusions before getting all the facts from all sides. I should practice what I preach. Not all things are scams, and might just have different requirements than most of us are familiar with. Each person needs to get to know who they are dealing with, build a relationship and then make a decision on what they are interesting in providing.

Hearing your explanation makes sense in your application, and glad you provided it. Just something I personally had not heard of, and is not part of our particular region.

MAB

Last edited by Marc Barnette; 06/25/20 10:36 AM.
#1165881 - 06/25/20 10:38 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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Well,
I seem to remember being told by producers that they in no way shape or form want a Lead Sheet with a song. Just a demo and a lyric sheet. That's all I have sent. No one complained.


Ray E. Strode
#1165882 - 06/25/20 11:24 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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Well Everette wisely did not mention what company it was, Chris dragged himself into it by retaliating and telling us what company it was.

Requiring a lead sheet or lyric sheet is one thing, saying you must pay for the lead sheet or else we won't send it to be considered is another.

Unless you have a very intricate arrangement, with lots of melodic and musical changes, like a classical piece of music, you don't need one.

Especially when paying pro musicians to demo your song, they are not there to recite the country songwriters three chord song, they are there to come up with their own parts.

Maybe a scam is harsh, but it's like a fee of say, locker space at a gym, and then you must rent the locker....

#1165890 - 06/25/20 04:20 PM Re: Legit or not [Re: Ray E. Strode]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Well Everette wisely did not mention what company it was, Chris dragged himself into it by retaliating and telling us what company it was.

Requiring a lead sheet or lyric sheet is one thing, saying you must pay for the lead sheet or else we won't send it to be considered is another.

Unless you have a very intricate arrangement, with lots of melodic and musical changes, like a classical piece of music, you don't need one.

Especially when paying pro musicians to demo your song, they are not there to recite the country songwriters three chord song, they are there to come up with their own parts.

Maybe a scam is harsh, but it's like a fee of say, locker space at a gym, and then you must rent the locker....



I don't know where you get the idea that we require anyone to pay for their sheet music. We don't. We rather not create the sheet music. The only reason why we're offering it is because some of our long time clients who know and trust us asked for it. I personally prefer if you create your own sheet music and submit it. Our requirement is to have the sheet music. It is not a requirement that we have to create the sheet music. I think I was very clear about that in my post. Again, most professional songwriters have the sheet music for their submissions anyways, so no big deal for them. The ones who don't have sheet music will either have to create it, or pay someone (and I don't care who they're paying) to create one.

Originally Posted by Marc Barnette


Hello,
I can't speak for John, but in my case, no, sheet music has never been asked for in the songs I've placed.

MAB


Marc: You did not answer my question. The question wasn't if you are asked for the sheet music, the question was if you create the sheet music of your professional productions REGARDLESS if you're asked for them or not. John already answered that question with a "Yes" (which is the answer I expected). Again, I suspect that some publishers we work with ask for the sheet music because they know most professional songwriters have the sheet music to their songs and this might be a way for them to separate the hobby songwriters from those who are professionals. I'm sure that you mostly work with publishers and supervisors who know you and have a relationship with you. They don't have to separate you from hobby songwriters. They know you're a professional musician. However, the publishers we work with (one of them based in Nashville by the way), do not know any of the songwriters we submit music from. They normally would never accept unsolicited submissions in the first place. They're making an exception for songwriters who submit their music through us so putting the bar a little higher makes perfectly sense IMO.

Originally Posted by Ray E. Strode
Well,
I seem to remember being told by producers that they in no way shape or form want a Lead Sheet with a song. Just a demo and a lyric sheet. That's all I have sent. No one complained.


And how many were actually placed in a meaningful way that created you some income?

Martin: The lyrics contest was widely advertised here on the board. We provided a free small band production (three instruments + vocals + mixing + mastering) which we normally charge $375 for. I think the final version of the song is somewhere on this forum as well. It's up to Everett to share it as he owns the rights to the song. He was happy with the result and that's all I care about as he was the "client". For all your other questions, feel free take a look around our website. If you have any specific questions after that, shoot me an email.


https://tunedly.com

Contact me at chris@tunedly.com
#1165895 - 06/25/20 05:39 PM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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Got the idea from the original post.

The publisher needed sheet music......

#1165898 - 06/25/20 05:51 PM Re: Legit or not [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Got the idea from the original post.

The publisher needed sheet music......


Even in the original post, Everett never stated that it's required to have us create the sheet music from what I can see ;-)


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#1165899 - 06/25/20 05:51 PM Re: Legit or not [Re: Chris Erhardt]  
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Originally Posted by Chris Erhardt
[quote=Fdemetrio]
And how many were actually placed in a meaningful way that created you some income?

Martin: The lyrics contest was widely advertised here on the board. We provided a free small band production (three instruments + vocals + mixing + mastering) which we normally charge $375 for.


That being the case...I'd have paid the fifty bucks and considered myself ahead even if nothing came of it.


#1165902 - 06/25/20 05:58 PM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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Why is the title of thread...Legit or Not?

#1165905 - 06/25/20 06:20 PM Re: Legit or not [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Why is the title of thread...Legit or Not?


I wish I knew...


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#1165915 - 06/26/20 06:33 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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First of all, I didn't know it was Chris's company that was offering to make the sheet music, he offered a link to get it made, I did not follow that link, I thought it might be connected with the publisher. I've had my share of troubles with so called publisher over my life to know they are not all legit. I know Chris is legit so I apologize if it came across as suspecting him, but I did not mention him in my post, I just questioned if this was a practice of publishers now, because I'd never ran into it before. We all know there are schemes out there to separate writer from their money, was this just another twist. I've had songs signed by publishers before, some big names and some bottom feeders, but was never asked to supply sheet music. Sheet music was necessary years ago before home cassette recorders came along, but many publishers probably do not even read music. I might understand needing sheet music for a song after it was heard and liked, but not before hearing the song, most producers want to put their own spin on a song, so why need sheet music.

If it is to separate pro songwriters from amateurs, it does not do the job, any amateur songwriter with money to burn can find someone that will give them sheet music, just as there are demo studios that hold their nose to give them demos. You can't judge a book by it's cover, you have to read it. A song is meant to be heard, not read, oh I know there are sheet music readers that can hear the music in their head while reading the notes, but few and far between. The only difference between a pro and an amateur in anything, is if they do it for the love of it or they get paid for doing it. I did it for the love of it for years but now I'm making money from it, not getting rich, but I'll take it to help recoup some of the money I've spent over the years.

I know Chris is a pro and a good guy and if he ever got into publishing and pitching, I believe I would use his service. I know most publishers have closed door policies, which makes it difficult for an unknown writer to get heard. But there must be many good songs out there yet to be discovered, so how can the two get together. A diamond miner has to dig a lot of dirt to find that rare stone, a gold miner sifts a lot of tons of dirt to find a few ounces of gold. They take chances and are rewarded maybe once in a lifetime, but it was worth the search.

#1165993 - 06/28/20 09:03 PM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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Chris,

Iím sorry, I thought I had answered your question. The answer is ďNOĒ that I have never been asked for sheet music on any of the five major cuts Iíve had or in any of the dozens of independent cuts Iíve had and still seem to get.
It has never been required. In the country market, unless a song has been a major hit and included in songbooks or collections, there is no need for it. In all other purposes, a Nashville ďnumbers chartĒ is all that was asked for accompanying a lyric sheet. And that was Usually for musicians only.

My first major cut was on Shelby Lynne, and used in a CBS television movie. The publisher on that was Sony music, but we were never asked for sheet music. To my knowledge there was no sheet music on her debut album that our song was on.
Other cuts I had were on Warner Brothers projects, Capitol and Lyric Street, and again, there were no requests for sheet music.

The singer on my song ďRESCUED MEĒ was recorded by John Berry, on Lyric street (Disneyís country label) he left that label and went to Word music, and became a Christian artist, and he performed the song as a Christian artist, but Iíve never been informed there had been any sheet music on either version of the song.

The two times I was supplied with sheet music were songs that were included in piano song instruction books, and that was supplied by the publisher of the books. The only other time was when I met a calligrapher at one of my performances, who did a sheet music transcript on one of the songs she liked on my CD for a present for me, which I framed but lost long ago.

So, the answer to your question is ďNoĒ, but in the side of the business Iím in it simply has never been required. I hope that suffices.

MAB

#1166008 - 06/29/20 10:35 AM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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John Lawrence Schick Offline
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John Lawrence Schick  Offline
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Just a note... I said I write all the notation out Chris. That's just a habit I got into from my classical piano composing days. I have never found a publisher (other than a sheet music publisher) that requested sheet music. And I have music with 20+ publishers. Maybe you could mention the name of a publisher that insists on sheet music when submitting music? It would be interesting to contact them and ask why.

Best, John smile

#1166013 - 06/29/20 12:14 PM Re: Legit or not [Re: Everett Adams]  
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John Lawrence Schick Offline
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John Lawrence Schick  Offline
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BTW, that was a long, long time ago. Like dinosaurs, Alacran Press doesn't exist anymore. And they did "real" music engraving. Not the sissy computerized kind. laugh Sample: http://schicksville.com/Romancepg1.pdf

John smile


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