Hi Michele,

Just realized I didn't reply to this
yes stay away from those abusive people who take advantage

"know what to watch out for in the future."
The problem is these people start out as charismatic handsome and charming plus when people fall in love, we tend to
1) project (giving them qualities we want them to have, but they don't)
2) magnify the positives &
3) minimize the negatives or just be completely blind to them
4) repeat, Life gives us lessons, and it tends to repeat the lesson until we really learn the lesson. We also tend to attract the same types of people, sometimes your new love could be similar to those we've already had relationships. The difference is, if you get any early warning signs you are in another abusive relationship, have the courage to end it sooner rather hanging on and taking the abuse.

good to hear you're songwriting.

It's nice to have a killer title but it's more important to have a killer idea, approach or melody


you can't copyright a TITLE!
but if you build a valuable business around it you can trademark it.
IE Margaritaville

yep don't wait, get to work. It's fun to think it's looking great but when the creative flow is done editing begins.
"this song is gonna ROCK!"


"As to the song "In a Minute" yes, it is a duo, Mum and Daughter song,(and thanks, you gave me a few other idea's for the song) Stan and I have achieved that, but before I post songs up now, I want to get the melody, go over the lyrics like a fine tooth comb with my producer, because I've found when Rodney starts writing the music for the song, Yep those lyrics can change, and it's all worth while when it's finished."
It's OK for lyrics to change, I tell my cowriters I am for whatever is better.


"Ande, your TIPS are excellent!"
thank you

Thanks for the FREE advice, because I financially live from week to week.
you're welcome

My main suggestion to any songwriter is:
"don't spend a lot of money on a song until it's strong enough and really ready."
Sometimes we're over eager to get something done.
Also search hard to find production sources that provide excellence and affordability.

Ande

Hi Ande

Thanks for all your advice, I honestly really get it now hey. I'm now a VICTOR not a VICTIM, and can actually see that I won't be going into another abusive relationship ever again. I don't deserve not to be Loved, and I hope one day I do find the right man who will love me as much as I'd love him.

I have grown in myself a lot, and yes you are right, Harsh Lessons, I've learnt a lot on the way, they are so damn good at conning yah, but not this Aussie woman cause I can actually see it now, and I straight away remove myself from those types of people.

Ande, I used one of the 1-8 Chorus examples with Ms Perfect, and I was wondering would you mind showing me in a 1-4 1-5 1-6 1-7 of were the Hook should be in a chorus, as I'm currently working on a new song idea, and would appreciate your help.

As to finding an affordable producer, I have found him, Rodney is excellent, talented, and his fee's are very reasonable.

I noticed the views on your songwriting tips, Wow Ande. One day I hope one of my songs will get that many views.

Thanks Michele

Crazy that this has now had over 400,000 views

People get excited over busy and long posts. Same way on all message boards. The more traffic, the more traffic.

If you could only condense this thread into a Readers Digest story.

I wonder what name Airun is using now?...let me guess.

You know something else about this post is an amazing lesson and it has NOTHING to do with songwriting. It has to do with PROFESSIONALISM and DEALING WITH TROLLS and LESSONS ABOUT HOW PEOPLE FIND SUCCESS IN THE REAL WORLD.... and all you need to do is read the visceral hatred spewed by Airun (a born tool if ever there was one) and the unbelievably professional way in which Ande deflected not only his venom, but even his legit attacks. Folks, if you want to know why people like Ande find success and others do not, you need not do more than read the first page or more of this topic. It's brilliant. His tips are solid, especially for someone learning to write a song, but his actions offer the best lesson that people who do anything professionally on line could learn a lot from.

I had actually forgotten about the discussion at the top until someone mentioned the troll and I thought, I need to take another look. Sometimes trolls do have their place in moving things forward. Of course they're almost always cowards of unimaginable proportions, like Airun who wouldn't just use his real name and take the consequences (he truly defines trolldom).

Write on, =)

Brian

Dear Brian,

Thank you

I'd forgotten about airun. I just remember he was viscous mean and persistent at attacking me & Eventually.
http://www.broadjam.com/artists/songs.php?artistID=12856&mediaID=96362

http://www.broadjam.com/player/player.php?play_file=12856_96362

At some point I quit responding to his posts then blocked him.
All his posts show up as
*** You are ignoring this user ***

Some songs are lyrically sparse. Eventually is one of them. My lyric writing tips are tools not rules. I felt like he critiqued Eventually, a pop song, using country tools.

Melody and prosody are more important than lyrics. Songs like Yesterday or Unchained Melody or At Last don't have many words. When a song has few words, it makes room for interesting melodies. A recent example is Sam Smith's run away hit "Stay With Me"

[Verse 1:]
Guess it's true, I'm not good at a one-night stand
But I still need love 'cause I'm just a man
These nights never seem to go to plan
I don't want you to leave, will you hold my hand?

[Chorus:]
Oh, won't you stay with me?
'Cause you're all I need
This ain't love, it's clear to see
But darling, stay with me

[Verse 2:]
Why am I so emotional?
No, it's not a good look, gain some self-control
And deep down I know this never works
But you can lay with me so it doesn't hurt

[Chorus 3x]


But you know what? The melody is so amazing and his voice is gorgeous, I don't care. I feel no need to jump into the ridiculousness of saying, it's ok but I'd really like more imagery and story.

Each song has its own journey.

Also songs are art, they are our creations, at some point we need to have the courage to decide that when a song is done. Also, when you cowrite, you don't always get your way & sometimes the relationship is more important than being right or thinking you're right. Always separate song and writers, always approach with the intent to make the song better and people valued and appreciated.

What's interesting about Eventually was, I wrote the chorus, then invited Donna Aylor in on the lyric and we cowrote some country verses for it. Then we invited melody writer, Mark Oates in on the song and his 1st draft was kinda country blue grassy & uptempo. We immediately told him we didn't feel it matched what the lyric was about, being totally in love then suddenly dumped, heart broken, blindsided, aching for the one we lost, stuck in misery and futility.

As a side note Mike Reid & Allen Shamblin's early draft of "I Can't Make You Love Me" was uptempo and bluegrassy. The cowrite took several weeks, they had a break, after the break they got back together to finish the song. Mike told Allen I've got something I want you to hear. He played his rewritten version of "I can't make you love me" as an instrumental. It was the version we know. When Mike finished, he asked Allen what he thought of it and what he should change. Allen had no clue it was their song. He told Mike "That was the most beautiful amazing thing he'd ever heard and shouldn't change a thing." Then Mike told him, "It's our song "I can't make you love me" Then he played it again singing their lyrics.


Back to Eventually, Donna and Mark got together without me and totally rewrote Eventually's verses and bridge to what they are now. I wasn't part of that dialog, but I love what they did and totally support their choices. I am proud to be a cowriter of "Eventually." I'm happy to help people on their songwriting journeys.

Sometimes songwriters can be overly critical of other writers songs.
Sometimes songwriters are way more critical than fans.

But if you're a writer who's hoping for commercial success, you've got to develop your skills to a very high level, you've got to have the ability to be a tough self critic. The song game has changed, it's hard to get cuts, there are fewer acts, fewer songs & CDs sold. Many artists are also writers. Which is why labels now want 360 deals where they earn a piece of everything artists do.

If you want songwriting success, your best bet is to be an artist or find talented up & coming artists, songwriters or producers, get to know them as people, help them and cowrite with them or place songs with them. Also know if they get really successful, they get really busy and many might move on & up.

Brian, thanks for everything you've done over all these years, you are JPFolks but truly far from plain. Thank you especially for resisting the temptation to sell out in the early years during the internet boom. JPFolks is a great community and a true labor of love.

Ande

Last night I had the pleasure of witnessing Allen Shamblin performing
"I Can't Make You Love Me" and
"The House that Built Me"
In his story tellin he said this
http://youtu.be/onKsZTqGGn0

I hope these tips provide tools for folks to write stronger lyrics.

This post is deservedly one of the most viewed. Perhaps Ande will continue to add to it?

Thank you Brian, maybe I should. What else is there?

Ande,

You mean all the possible songwriting tips in the world are already in this post? So no need for all those books? heh.

I think the challenges today are very different than they were even 5 years ago, let alone 10-15-20. If anyone can address those new challenges with first hand knowledge, that would always be appreciated.

Brian

Hi Brian,

Forgive my absence. I think the lyric writing tips stand up, MAB is well versed on what it takes & has plenty to add. The music biz is a paradox, opportunity is wide open but it might be more challenging than ever to make a descent from just music.

There’s one book called
“Do What You Love and The Money Will Follow.”

There’s another called
“Should I Do What I love or Do what I Do so I can do what I love on the Side?”

This is the path I’ve chosen. There’s some careers where you can be exceptional and still barely eek out a living and there’s other careers where you can be average and do well.

MAB can probably tell you Nashville ain’t what it used to be, but it’s still possible to get cuts.

That's actually the advice Ihave been preaching for over 30 years... do what you love and if others love it and you make money, great, if not, you still win. Chasing success has always been tragic in my view unless you don't love music, you're just good enough to do it to make commerce.

We can even learn from badly written songs , just a thought

I wonder how many Learning song writers , study what is known as The Vowel Triangle

I found it years ago in a book written by a well known Berklee Professor who's name escapes me

at this time ,

I just remembered his name it is Patt Pattison he also does some handy you tube talks on the art

Another You Tube Must for us all is Leonard Bernstein

Oh and I dont know why many J P F writers look on Nashville as the Be all and End all of

getting cuts , there are so many other outlets in the world try looking at the Big Picture I would say

Matt, you're so correct about learning. Bad songs are much better teachers than great songs. Great songs first have to avoid all the fatal errors of bad songs THEN must have some level of artistry that can't be taught on top. So looking at bad songs can help you learn the fatal errors and how to avoid them and then you avoid those and add your artistry and hopefully it becomes brilliant.

Brian

That is all gospel truth Ande.

981k views Whoa!

Hey Ande!

Based on your advice and tips, would you have anything that I need to change about this song?

https://www.soundclick.com/html5/v4/player.cfm?songID=282035

Congrats Ande! Your post has joined the million view club!

Well a song that has been recorded by many many top Popular Singers


From a diabolical Fiftys Film titled Unchained also has very very cliche lines


its titled -- Unchained Melody--- So the story line is corny , if you look back at


the hits of YESTERYEAR you will find many similar examples, the author of UNCHAINED


Only had one other HIT ---- in a lifetime of writing ----so what ?

The Sales of the various recordings prove that sometimes simplistic words can be carried

by Hypnotic Melody

Great post!

The Chorus should be a Summary of what is going on in

the verses ?? Andy and his Co Writers have done exactly that

Are there any Radio Ready Recordings of this song?? I cant seem to find one

on YOU TUBE ???? just asking

I personally think the music could be doctored a little but its certainly got

a lot going for it as it is, Airun's Silly version is a Piss take, ignore him

he's never had a hit to my knowledge, so its just negativity on his part; his time

could be bettered by concentrating on his own stagnant writing career if he is

serious about it

DIANNE WARREN Cliche??? What is in your head AIRUN ??

She is the most innovative Song Writer of the last Thirty Years


She writes about LOVE , the same subject most Wannabe and Professional

writers write about ???

Simplicity in a hit song is the aim for most as long as the music and lyrics

have the right PROSODY

Warren composes the most beautiful modulations I have ever heard , and I am certain

most on here would agree,

At the end of the day Airun what have you ever written that could stir The Sleeping Beauty

from her three hundred year marathon sleep over ????

Wow! I never even saw this thread. My name was only mentioned twice. I'm like "BEETLEJUICE" you have to mention me THREE times for me to show up. LOL!

WRITING SIMPLE is the absolutely HARDEST thing to do. Because we have to be SIMPLE, yet NOT SIMPLISTIC. Finding as DIFFERENT A WAY to say a line or lines is the most important thing to get people to pay attention. A couple of interesting notes:

MELODY GETS THEM THERE. LYRICS KEEP THEM THERE.

One of the problems of today's modern writing, particularly new and amateur or up coming writers is the rapid fire nature of everything in our lives. I think a ot of that
is due to the INFORMATION OVERLOAD of our lives. Right now, I am viewing financial news programs on television, have my phone with messages, and looking at this and other threads to make sure I've answered everything I was involved in over the past few days. This is in addition to re-visitng a few of my own songs, and doing some fine tuning on them. So there is a LOT going on.

This is reflected in a lot of our culture. Fast cuts in television commercials, movies, fast paced action in movies, and rapid fire lyrics in rap, rock and even country songs. I think this is because of those reflections in culture and are part of the natural evolution of songwriting. And in many cases I DONT THINK THAT IS A GOOD THING. But now the listeners are involved in it and in many ways, expect it.

Matt, Having taken classes from Pat Pattison, AND WRITTEN A SONG WITH HIM, I can say that sometimes Pat needs to FOLLOW HIS OWN ADVICE. He can be a bit wordy as well. LOL! Very nice guy though and has actually referred some clients to me, so I would and did say the same thing to him. He aggreed. LOL!

Chyanne, I tell you what I see from most all the new comers. Those new younger, middle and older people who are making the trek to Nashville, as well as those I've seen around the country and Canada, and this has been building for at least the past 10-15 years. They come into every writers night, trying to get publisher, ASCAP, BMi appointments, play the songwriters festivals (on the open mics, rarely the real shows) and they suffer from two distinct maladies:

PLAYTOOMUCHITUS!
SAYTOOMUCHITUS!

Their songs are long winded, play too many musical changes, (changing guitar or piano chord on just about every beat) have no discernable followable melodies, no eveident hooks, not even really defined choruses, and really don't even make a point. They seem to think "MORE IS MORE" and usually the songs are so immentatly forgettable, you can't remember what they are even talking about WHILE THEY ARE SINGING THEM.

It is sort of reinforced by nearly everyone else doing the SAME THING. It doesn't help when AMERICAN SONGWRITER magazine and other similar publications give their "SONG OF THE MONTH " award, to some....well lets just say, questionable entrants. When is the last time you heard a seven verse, four different chorus and three bridge song on the radio. You know the writer is in trouble when it takes two full pages to get the entire lyric on.

When it really becomes HUGELY evident, is when you see those people over and over and then see A HIT WRITER, get up on the same stage. I just got back from Florida, with the FRANK BROWN SONGWRITERS FESTIVAL, where about 250 writers from all over were there. A lot of amateur writers and quite a few MONSTER HIT WRITERS. These people will play these five and six minute songs (preceeded by a six minute STORY about the writing of the song) and go on and on and on, losing most of the audience and your's truley.
THEN, you see a hit writer get up, lay some monster hit song, or something new they are working on and the difference is NIGHT AND DAY. They are direct, to the point, amazingly singable (you usually can hum or sing the chorus by the second one) tons of VISUAL FURNITURE in the entire song that you can SEE IN YOUR MIND'S EYE, and say more in two verses, choruses and maybe a bridge (and many of them don't even have those) and wrap the entire thing up in 3:00-3:30. It's astounding the differnces between those.

Another BIG THING is SUBJECT MATTER. You are correct that Dianne Warren writes about LOVE. The vast majority of hit songs in history were about that. Most new and amatuer writers write about NO LOVE. Their songs are ANGRY, BITTER, ACCUSITORY, AND GENERALLY SOME OF THE MOST DEPRESSING THINGS YOU HAVE EVER HEARD. Girls sing ACSS, (ANGRY CHICK SINGER SYNDROME,) and guys sing DDSS (DEPRESSED DUDE SINGER SYNDROME) and are more like self therapy sessions. As one person sitting next to me said after hearing a round of four female writers "I didn't pay to attend their therapy sessions"


So that is what the state of far too many newer writers go through. It reflects a lot of what goes on in culture with the angry world we live in. Art reflects culture and the other way around. But I wish they would learn to KEEP IT INTERESTING, AND SHORT! LESS IS MORE. (Yeah, I wrote that one too)

MAB


So; yes, you can learn more from the BAD songs, than you can from the GOOD OR GREAT SONGS. And anoth

Great thread! Hey Guys,

I've been out of the Songwriting loop for a few years and have recently made my return back into the fold.
Can anyone recommend any books regarding the Business of Songwriting in 2019?
I have bought so many great books in the past, but the Music Business has changed so much over the years,
that I am looking for some that can really update me for writing and doing business in Today's Market.
Any tips are appreciated. Thanks!-Dana

Dana,

The music business itself now defies all rules and books written on the subject. It is sort of make it all up as you go along. There are not "single formats" anymore, they all sort of cross section each other. There are no more people that listen to "one type of music" so the old days of writing for a specific audience really doesn't apply. The old rules of money, approach, style, structure, etc. really don't hold up any more and no books can really keep up. Going to places like YOU TUBE, and other streaming services, can probably do you more good as to current educational aspects, and of course, the old days of being around like minded individuals are pretty much going to be the best way to bring your education up to whatever speed you can go.

The bottom line, what is the music business today? What you can make it.
MAB

Hey Mab,

You are absolutely right, It's funny that you mention going to Youtube, and that's just what I have been doing. It's actually been
quite helpful! I am learning quite a bit, but as you say, it changes so fast, what's learned today will be different tomorrow:) Yes,
the need to be around like minded people is paramount. I am in the process of finding some local Songwriting groups. I have
been out of the loop for a little while doing other things, but my passion for Songwriting has come back with a vengeance! lol
It's amazing how much time I'm spending on Youtube in the Songwriting category. Loving every minute of too!
Thanks again for your response.-Dana

Dana,

It's what most people do and why YOU TUBE, and FACEBOOK are the biggest movers and shakers in the industry. and why everyone is trying to get those and things like TWITTER, INSTAGRAM, and whatever the trend of the second is doing, to work for them. Why companies and individuals spend BILLIONS of dollars advertising on those platforms. Since most everything is FREE, that is what they are making. Very weird world.

As I have said on almost all my posts, I would suggest people QUIT being so monetarily focused when it comes to art. Do what you do. Enjoy what you do. Spend what you feel you can afford. Books, while important (I'm currently immersed in many) any form of education is helpful. But things like Art, music, painting, sculpting, whatever, is worth what YOU CAN GET PEOPLE TO PAY YOU FOR BEING YOU. If there is demand for what you do with the PURCHASING public, you may make money or at least not go broke. But most books and instructional things can be tossed out the window because no rules seem to apply anymore.

For me, it has always been about the PERSONAL interaction WITH OTHER PEOPLE, be those like minded individuals, other writers, organized or semi organized like minded groups, artists, and ultimately, the fan base for whatever that is, that makes the difference. It's more or less a shoe commercial, "JUST DO IT,."
If you want to learn about songwriting, work with others who know more than you. Physically write. And then try to be involved where the "rubber hits the road" with an artist, performing those songs in front of ACTUAL audiences.

All the books, courses, schooling, DVD';s, YOU TUBE, or whatever sites, pale in comparrison with that.
MAB

Hey Mab,

Sage advise for sure!"
This is a great line here..
"But things like Art, music, painting, sculpting, whatever, is worth what YOU CAN GET PEOPLE TO PAY YOU FOR BEING YOU."
The Music Business is changing so rapidly, where do you think it will be in the next 10yrs?
Is the Music Industry now, how you thought it would be 10yrs ago?
Do you think Artists and Songwriters will have more power to be self-contained in the Youtube era? Will the Majors still have a Major
role in distribution?
Thanks again for your time.-Dana

Dana,

The music business has developed into what several of us were made aware in the 90's. I attended one of many panel discussions on the subject of the coming "Interweb" which was going to put all music online and people would be able to "reach audiences they never could before." But the trade off was going to be loss of income from royalties and income from music itself. So we've seen this coming for about 20 years. I don't have a crystal ball but my own opinion is more or less:

The world is now in and in the future one giant NICHE market, that is led by by amateurs. The music is homogonized and all sounds and looks alike. The leaders are the reality shows and there is an "everyone can do it" mentality that is throughout society.
Long careers will be a thing of that past and it will be more and more a celebrity (of the second) world. They will be here and gone faster than anyone even knows.

The money will still be made by a very few people, and concentrated in corporations and very tightly controlled upper echelons.
Having said that, those power people will change continually. It will be a revolving door with no one maintaining any long careers, behind and in front of the public eye.

More and more AI will be employed and more computer driven music will frankly replace the majority of songwriters, musicians, actors, etc.

There will always be exceptions and there will be people who create their own niche's based around themselves without major labels or industry people.
But those will usually come with in the perview of the majors.

So there will still be majors, still be major stars, still be similar things. But it will be quicker and more fleeting. Most people, like today, will never be known outside their close friends, family, confidants.

That's my opinion.
MAB

The same thing is happening in movies and television. There is a movie being filmed right now with James Dean in the lead. It is CGI and his family has signed off on his usage. I could see new movies coming out with Bogie, John Wayne, and all kinds of famous stars, who have been dead for many years. The same as was done with duets between Nat King Cole and his daughter Natalie.

MAB

Mab,

Thanks for responding. Man that doesn't sound any kinds of good. It's like 2.0 of what's already happening. It's hard to imagine Careers being any shorter than they already are but I concede it's possible. I often wondered if Music would go in the direction of the AI/CGI model you pointed out, and I really hope that's not the case.. Most of the human element of Music is already being sucked out. My question is what happens to us as human beings if it does? Scary thought to think that we would allow this to happen. Is there a "resistance' coming and if so, who would it be?
Just thinking out loud on that last question, thanks again for your insight!-Dana

Dana,

What kind of "resistance" do you have in mind? Everyone stay off the Internet and refuse to give up access to your music? How many people do you think would do that and what do you think it would matter? See, that is the real conundrum. People are pretty insignificant in the overall scheme of things. One, one hundred, one hundred thousand could stop doing something and there are fifty billion people who would do the exact opposite. Would have no effect.

I'm afraid there is not a lot that can be done. We are where we are. It is a technilogically advanced age and we are just playing a small part in it. You always have to look at the CONSUMER.

People have tried to address this legislatively, with governments, (A lot of the current Chinese dialogues going on are about Intellectual property) you name it. The problem is really the consumer. For 20 plus years they have gotten all the music, entertainment, art, etc. they want endlessly and for free. They choose NOT to pay for it because they don't have to. You and I could choose to keep our music OFF the Internet (Actually I do for the most of it, keeping it on my web site, and a few select sites) and what difference would it make? The same could be said for every Major label. They need and are in fact a part of the Internet platforms. So who is going to resist? The hit artists, who can control what is put up? Nope. They need the exposure. They sacraficed the value of any songs for the value of the artist.

So who would the resistance consist of and what effect would it have? In my opinion, none. I hate it as I have been involved with music my entire life. But I just don't see any "light" coming through. As I said there will be people who succeed. There are people who are succeeding now. They give away product and in return they gain market share. It's a tricky proposition, but some do. Most don't. Wish I could have some special insight. I just don't.

But as I also say, all is not dark. People can still create. People can still share what they do. In some ways it is the best of times. There are a lot of platforms people can use. But I think they have to get used to a different dynamic. A new normal, if you will. And in reality, the new normal, is pretty much what has always been there. THere have always been people with instruments, sitting around, playing bars and clubs, creating music, sharing with others. That has been there for centuries. Not that many actually turned it into a living or a vocation. And there were not as many people at that time.
Now everyone has pretty much the same thing and do the same thing. More people play music. More people post and share music.

I know I sound all dark, forboding and depressing. I'm not really trying to be that way. I am not a pessimist or an optimist. I am a realist. My comments on sites like this or anyone I come into contact with are "be who you are. Do what you enjoy" That old adage, "To thy own self be true." But if you want to do this as a profession or even just to be a better writer, work on educating yourself, getting around other people who know more to you, particularly in some form of face to face situation, not just an online situation. Talking to someone face to face or writing with them, interacting with them, being around the general public, gives you a more realistic viewpoint when it comes to any of this.
There will be people who come through all this and do well. The more you experience, the more you know, both good and bad. If it saves some money, time or effort wasted in one way or another, I'm all for that.

MAB

Whazzat?
Homogenized. Now that is the word I must have been searching for when I made my Post, TODAY'S COUNTRY MUSIC. I thiink that describes Today's Country Music to a T! Damn! It is still Hard to write a great song! Write a Hit!

By the way, my former Publisher called me the other day. He moved back up to New York about 3 years ago but says he is tired of all the Snow and Ice and again is moving back here. We will see.

Most music has always been a homogonized version of many things. Jimmie Rodgers was a cross breed of Traditonal folk music and African gospel and blues music. Elvis was a cross breed of Black blues music and rockabilly. The Beatles were an amalgamation of Skiffle, English folk music and American R&B. All music have been a crossbreed of different styles. Now it is many many types of music. And believe it or not, Ray, I agree with you on a lot of what you say. There is much that I don't care for today. It is beyond my interest. And yours. Our eras are different ones, and the "mainstream" moved past us. This is normal.

But as it is being said on one of the other threads here there is a lot of music of all kinds being done out there. Even the major labels release a lot of things, most just don't gain traction. That has to do with the public, not any "Big wigs." Our entire culture are cross breeds of many things. Look at the current crop of Hollywood movies. Half of them are reboots from old series like Star Wars, some from Comic books like Marvel and DC, there are remakes and reboots with their own type of spin. Same with television, Netflix, streaming, etc.
There is a LOT of stuff out there. A friend of mine ,Scott Southworth, is very much a traditional artist, and is doing very well in Europe. So just because we don't hear it on "mainstream" radio, or at our own fingers, it doesn't mean its not out there.

MAB

Mab,

I don't you are being dark at all, you are being a realist, and this information will help a lot of us on our own journey, so I really appreciate the time you are taking to inform us. You hit on so many points here, that I am really impressed with your knowledge of this subject. Like a lot of people here, I held the same attitude that today's music really sucks, I was very fearful that I would somehow be left behind if I did not subscribe to the style that is currently out, but have since found that I don't need to be fearful of that at all. I have learned to 'adapt' as you say and create music that is enough of my own style, yet also fit in with what I believe is current now. So that holds a lot of satisfaction for me. I believe if we are able to stay true to our own voice in music and touch others, then I think that is a success. Music is such a powerful force in many of our lives that, I really can't see myself not doing it. I suspect that's they way a lot of us on these boards feel, No matter if I were behind the times or not, Any tips for those who can't seem to get past this roadblock?
As always appreciate the time!-Dana

Dana,

I'll give you a little background on myself if the rest of the people will indulge me. Most of them have known many things about me over the years, but there are always new people reading or just joining. So I try to provide the reasons WHY I have arrived at the positions I take. Anyyone uninterested, scroll on past.

I grew up performing in the 70's. March 17, 1974, to be exact. I fell in love with performing the songs of the Eagles, Skynyrd, Kiss, Styxx, most of that era, and then going backwards and learning about the BEATLES (Always impressed the ladies, which is why I started doing this in the first place.) Starting "writing" (If you could call it that, in the mid 70's and have been doing it most of my life.A band I was in in the 80's won a Nationwide Battle of the Bands sponsored by MCA records and Miller Beer. At that time, I was into the music of the 80's Journey, Boston, Foriegner, etc. and that was what our bands patterned after and the "corporate rock" genre of that day.

But things change. Bands break up, as ours did. And music changes,drastically. The corporate rock, big vocals harmony clean lyrics and singable songs, all changed, first to the Heavy Metal Band of the Week, then Seattle Grunge, then hip hop and rap. All of that turned me off incredibly and the music of Exile, Alabama, Lee Greenwood, and many others attracted me. I always had an affinity for country music. A lot of what people talk about here, Cash, George Jones, and others always intriqued me. Big voices. So that drew me to Nashville and meeting some people with experience in the town, taught me elements of country songwriting. And what I had been doing, Eagles, Skynyrd, etc. had gravitated to country. So my move came pretty easily.
But often music will change around you and you either adapt or die.

I moved to town April Fools Day 1988, made the connection for my first cut on SHELBY LYNNE, my first night in town. Things happened to me all the time. Development deals, record deals, publishing deals, etc.and I was in the thick of everything, writing with hit writers, doing demos, performing a ton, and just being myself. But again music changed over and over. The more country blues and rock, were supplanted by Garth Brooks and the more traditional country rock. And while I still participated and felt comfortable, getting some cuts, and getting close, I never got all the stars to allign like many of my contemporaries did.

As the age limit came in (I was 28 when I moved to Nashville) and the artist thing was no longer viable, I switched more to expclusviely writing. again got cuts and had deals, until the end of the 90's, when the deals and money in music started running out. Thank you Internet. So I reinvented myself again as a teacher/coach and mentor for writers and artists. Hundreds of people, and a very few went on to varying degrees of success. I never focused as much on the industry success as much as being competent and gratified with your own creative input. I am as interested in someone being the big fish in their little pond as anyone trying to move to Nashville for the brass ring. This is all part of the "reinvention" we all have to do as things change.

I came to sites like this by invitation of people who met me, worked with me, told others, etc. And that's where I am today. I'm sort of semi retired, in that I no longer fight much in the trenches of the business, but I still work with people who do. And that is my advice on getting past the road blocks. This is how I look at it.

If you write a song by yourself, you gratify yourself and maybe friends, but you only have you to help on it, promote it. And to me, it's not as much fun. I can write them all day by myself, but it is the energy, ideas and challenges other people provide that really motiate me. I bore me. But creating something with someone else that they could not do themself and teaching them something about the process means everything. So getting around other people in person made all the difference to me and always helped me avoid the roadblocks because by helping others, it helped me help myself.

If you were to be around some writers, online, in person, that helps you get out of your own way. You have experienced some here as people offer you perspective on your own questions and work. This usually leads to the lifeblood of writers, artists. If you were to have one or more artists, you would write different songs, help you in discovering things about yourself, and hopefully propel yourself to places you couldn't get yourself. And while it doesn't always lead to money and accolades, it beats what you are doing by yourself. It can be fun and give you your own sense of accomplishment.

An example on my own life are the things that happen continually that are kind of fun. Last night, while just randomly viewing YOU TUBE, a video came up on my feed. It was a Chicago morning television show, called "Windy City Live." Performing on the show was my friend and co-writer Jim Peterik, doing a song I had written with him and hit Nashville writer Joie Scott. It is called "Blue Storm Rising" and is performed and recorded by his band, IDES OF MARCH. You may remember them from the 70's with the song 'VEHICLE'. They are a 9 piece horn band ala Blood Sweat and Tears and Chicago. The song is really cool, with great lines, and Jim sings it with the current lead singer, of JEFFERSON STARSHIP, Cathy Richardson. It is really great to hear something you had a hand in being done in that format.

Will it make much money? Doubtful. They are a 55 year band, and are not going to get mainstream radio success. Does it matter? Nope. And as a plus, I perform in my own 10 piece horn band and we'll probably do that song now. But that is really what music is. Doing stuff and seeing where it ends up. You take your victories.

So for me, it is all about getting around other people. Challenging yourself. Approaching it responsibly and being true to yourself. And that helps you get past the roadblocks.

I apologize for the length of this and not trying to be self serving. But I think it does apply to reinventing ourselves, taking our own experiences,applying them to different situations, and each day moving a little forward down the road. This can apply to the original topic of Andy's writing tips. Andy himself makes trips to Nashville and we have met on several occassions. Things he talks about apply to that upgrade, education, finding new avenues and continually developing what you do. In country, it's still a lyric dominated format, so learning as much as you can about that, is very important. But to me, the MOST important is meeting and working with other people. To me, that is how you get past the roadblocks.

That's my take.
MAB

Mab,

Thanks for your in-depth background story of your beginnings. I really loved reading through it. This is a great post and it will serve a lot of people who come across it. Like all your post, I am getting a wealth of good advise here that will serve me well.
This is a great example of the mindset one needs to press forward.

The great thing about music, is that you never know where your song will end up, and it sounds like you have had lots of success' to your credit, and the great thing is that you're not done yet.
Being a part of someone else's journey and success is it's own reward.
This attitude will help a lot of us get out of our way.

The art of reinvention is key! If we are able to do this well, it will take us a long way on our journey.
Sounds like you are still as excited and motivated from the day you moved to Nashville to now, and that's a great victory. I hope to stay as inspired as I am now. Great post, lots to go back over and take in.
Again, thanks for your willingness to share parts of your journey.-Dana

Dana,

Thank you. I really don't care to talk that much about myself, but every once in a while I feel it's nessasary to explain WHY I believe the things I do. Also, because negativity is so prevalant in everything, and a lot of times I feel I present an impossible picture. A lot of it is not so much impossible as IMPROBABLE. So you have to work on things you CAN do, and not worry about what you CAN'T DO. But at the same time, you have to understand why things happen and how we got to where we are.

It's very nice to hear from you and good to get some questions that I might be able to help on. I think you should start your own question thread and ask some things about what you are going through. It might help you streamline your efforts. I am never going to be good at a lot of streaming, internet, recording issues. I am more involved in the creative process, performance and networking advice. There are others here who are involved in recording, and other more technically related issues. If you were to ask some things that you personally need, that might help people focus on just you.

As always, you or anyone are welcome to contact me personally here, or visit my web site to see some things that I have been involved in. It's a great idea to find out what others have done and where they have come from in order to find things that apply to you and what you need.

MAB

Mab,

Thanks, I used to ask a lot of questions, when I was more active here years ago lol.
This is one of the few places still around that you can
communicate with like minded people without paying for a subscription.
Though the internet has made music related things more accessible, it has also made it much harder to communicate effectively with each other as Songwriters/Musicians/Singers.
So being able to read through your story and experiences have made me feel more connected.

Personally, my challenges are being a Non-performing Songwriter hasn't changed much, I do my best to find ways around that. I know that being able to network with Artists and musicians that can do what I can't is essential for me, so my efforts are going to be more focused on 'getting out' there like you say and start doing. I am finding myself really interested in what makes a great song! Finding the common elements in songs that make them standout from other songs.

I'm hoping to be able to recognize those elements and incorporate them into my own songs, or even in some cases see them in songs that I have already written. I think being aware of where you stand in your talent/skill-set is really key in order for you to be able to grow. I love asking questions in a way that will help me gain some insight to my own growth, and hopefully they help others gain some in their own. At the end of the day, all one can ask is to be able to write a better song, than we did yesterday. So, again thanks for taking the time to answer some of my questions, I will be sure to look you up and seek out your advise and expertise you are one of the rare ones around that are open to sharing the knowledge that you have gained.
I appreciate your time as always!-Dana

Dana,

My presence on this or any forum has always been to provide some insight most people might not be able to get elsewhere. Giving someone a "lightbulb moment" (Oh WOW! That's what that means....!) is always one of my favorite things.

One of my favorite moments was here a few years ago. There was a woman (and forgive me if I can;t remember her name, it's been a couple years) who had been on these boards a lot. She was always very frustrated and blamed a lot of things, the industry, whatever and was upset because she couldn't seem to get anywhere. She was a non performer and had tried tons of music libraries, song pluggers etc. She would come on and go off and we wouldn't see her for months or even a year or so sometimes. But when ever she came around, she always just seem to be really exasperated.

I preached my usual "go out and meet some people" sermon and she kind of sluffed that off most of the time. Then, again, she dissapeared and we didn't hear from her for quite a while. One day, I was checking in over here. I had been away for a while. From time to time I've had computer meltdowns, forgot my password or just ran into some roadblocks and just sort of skipped checking in. There was the little flashing "Private Message waiting" that had been there for a little bit. I checked it and she was thanking me. She had found a group of writers and artists near where she lived and had been working with some people. She was actually hearing her songs performed and working with several people, and was simply telling me that what I had said and that she mostly ignored was actually working. And one of the reasons that she had not been around (neither had I) was that she was busy actually doing all this stuff.

That was really cool.

I don't know what to tell people most of the time. None of this is spelled out. There are no secret passwords or even a lot of a recipie for success. You basically try to do things that make people like you more than they dislike you and try to get them interested enough in what you do, to share with others or to work with you themselves. That's basically it.

Want to get something out there? Write something that doesn't suck and that people are interested in. Make sure it's written the best you can and recorded well.
Want to get something directly to the masses? Write it with an artist or be an artist that people like. Help them promote it as much as you can.

Repeat process. Don't suck.

Now you know the secret.
MAB

Mab,

Yes, more sage advice "Write something that doesn't suck" Can't say it better than that! I agree experience is the best teacher...
Writing up, comes to mind here, If you can find someone to write with that's way more advanced than you, then you are doing yourself
a great service. If you've got some talent, someone somewhere will be willing to collaborate with you, but it can take a bit of time.
I think that's one of the many frustrations of some of the members on these kind of boards. Finding that perfect partner that will compliment
your skill-set. When you arrived in Nashville and secured your first cut, did you co-write the song with Shelby Lynn? How did that come about, did you know common people?
as always, thanks for indulging.-Dana

Dana,

I wish I could take credit for that, but I can't. It's a Billy Joel quote from an interview with Barbara Walters.
He asked him, "You are one of the most prolific songwitahs fwom many years, and what advice would you give younger people watching you?"

He looked into the camera, and very slowly said..."Try...very hard....NOT TO SUCK."

I've always liked that.

No, I didn't write anything with Shelby. Actually only met her once. That was during the era that you could get songs to artists, and there was a divide between writers and artists. But like almost everything, there was a TON of luck involved.

After my band broke up, I was sort of homeless. Rock music was completely changing and I no longer had a home in that genre. I met someone at a meeting of songwriters. The way I found out about it, was my Father, happened to get his morning paper, and the next door neighbor who he had never met, asked if I was a songwriter? My Dad said "Well he's loud."
That got me to the meeting, of people I had never even known about. At that meeting was a guy named Ron Muir, who had lived in NAshville for ten years with a few medium hits in the 70's and 80's. He had moved back to Birmingham to take care of his aging father in law. That guy was one of the best writers I had ever met and we began a great friendship. Once a week I would go to his office (he had gotten completely out of music) and I paid him for private lessons to mentor me about Nashville.

That led to us writing a song based upon a saying from my Father, Grady Barnette. The story was about a guy who was hurting terribly. Goes to see his doctor and the Dr. asks where it hurts. The guy is a trucker and starts talking about the woman who left him and all the places it hurts as he drives across the land. WE got a map of the US, threw darts at it and where they hit was the city or state we put in. The song, called "THAT'S WHERE IT HURTS" was on the first project I did in Nashville.

It had a slow, vocal intro setting up the song, then kicks into a Texas two step. I recorded it and after three trips, I moved to NAshville. On the first night at a writers night, I met a guy who was not in the music business who liked my funny stuff. So I gave him a tape with that song and 9 others on it. The guy was not in the music business, but his roommate was, in the tape room at Tree publishing, erasing tapes from writers trying to pitch songs (Wonder where those "NO UNSOLICITED MATERIAL" pitches end up?" Garbage cans, or erased so that other songwriters could record over them.)

That guy, who was at Tree music, was playing the tape for random people at the company, including the vice president. As they were playing that song on the stereo, a producer, named Billy Sherril, who discovered George Jones and Tammy Wynette, was walking down the hall to go to the bathroom and over heard my song. HE was looking for a song for a scene in a TV movie,called ANOTHER PAIR OF ACES. It needed a slow intro, and then to kick into a Texas Two step. That movie starred Willie Nelson and Kris Kristofferson, and was going to be filmed soon.

Shelby Lynne was going to be singing in the bar in the scene and Willie, Kris and actress Sela Ward would be in the scene and end up two stepping to the song. The movie was on CBS television and she was going to be produced by Billy Sherril, who had discovered her. Her label was CBS, so that tied in with the movie and the record label. And it woudl go on her "SUNRISE" album. Which was her first album. That's how it happened. And my Dad, who was a co-writer on the song, got to see his idol, Willie, two step to his song. Was a lot of fun and paid pretty well. Not bad for a first night in town.

But it is basically an illustration of what I consider the FOUR steps of the music industry.

CREATION OF THE SONG.
PRESENTATION OF THE SONG.
NETWORKING.
BUSINESS.

Had I not been networking, meeting people, and a lucky break, I wouldn't have made that first songwriter's meeting, I never would have met Ron Muir and discovered about Nashville and professional songwriting. and if I had not gone out performing and meeting people, I would have never had the opportunity.

Had I not met Ron, I would not have the skill or direction to write something that would work in that pitch. The song was well created and fit a perfect niche.

Had we not recorded the song professionally, with Nashville players that made it sound like competitive songs, it would have never been considered.

And because all those things worked, it opened up a career that has lasted over 30 years and kept me in the game far longer than most of the people I have known who have quit. And enabled me to see larger pictures of the entire industry, enabling me to reinvent, adapt, and stay relevant, not to mention all the people I have had a positive infuence on. Not a bad chance meeting.

That's how it happened and that song continues to pay off. Right before Christmas, I was contacted by a friend of mine, Hit songwriter, and artist, Michael Peterson, a Nashville hit artist who now lives in Las Vegas. He had seen me perform it on a live stream performance I did on a show here and just happened to pull that song out because it had the word "Houston" in it. There was a family from Houston who happened in that day. Michael has decided to put it on his upcoming CD project.

So weird things happen. All part of a very odd business. And why you can't really plan, predict or understand how any of this works. Just gotta have faith.

MAB

Mab,

This is a fascinating story about your 1st cut. This really gives great insight into how it can happen. It seems that you had the right material at the right time, with the right connections. There is no one way for things to go, as anyone can see, its a journey, one that is really cool to read about. I wish we had more stories like this to tell.
Your story highlight the significance of everything that you have been saying. Starting with the creating of the Song, the presentation, having a great demo that sells the song, and having someone with a connection is really paramount.
As I said this is a fascinating read! I love that your dad was able to share in this accomplishment, he probably had no idea of where things would go. The fact that a Song can have many lives is also evident.
That is the great thing about Songs, they go on! How fortunate are we to be able to create something that other find enjoyment. I am really starting to realize that this is really the most important thing on my journey, is to create something special that will take others to another place, away from their cares and troubles. It's a powerful girt that we as Songwriters possess, I hope we all can be mindful of that power and respect it to the fullest of our abilities.
Again, thanks for the great peek inside, I hope this will help some of here on the boards!-Dana

Dana,

The vast, vast, vast majority of huge hits, happen just like that. Accidents, chance meetings, random acts that if most people realize how random it is, most people would probably never try it. Almost every hit songwriter I've ever met or worked with all have these types of stories on the songs that made their careers. They also have unending stories of songs they thought could NOT MISS, yet did. You just never know. You have to take care of what you can and that is really the deal.

The real inside thing now that exists that didn't before is that you HAVE to include the artist in the writing of the song today. They don't even get considered now outside that. There is a lot of reasons for that, but one above all, personal ego and propetary ownership. Think of it like this:

How many songs do you yourself write? How many have you lived? Have you written things about a loved one's death, a relationship that never quite happened, life's dissapointments, highs and lows, falling in love, having children, etc. The things you personally have experienced.
Then how many have you worked on, loved, re-written, then gone through the process of recording, paying money, putting them out there to promote?

Now, how many songs by other people that you don't know and possibly are written about the same issues, situations, life experiences. And you might not even consider them as good as your's.

Here's the big question.

How many of those would you promote over your own songs? How much energy would you expend to promote one of those songs? If you developed a very shakey relationship with an artist of your own aquaintance, and had a chance to pitch ONE song to them, would you pitch your own, something you write WITH THEM, or someone else's that you don't consider as good, written by a person you don't really know or have a relationship with?

This is the REAL DEAL and why you have to look BEYOND THE SONG. We all think we KNOW WHEN SONGS ARE UNDENIABLE! We all think we have something people just HAVE TO HAVE!!!

In reality, that is OUR OPINION. There are several threads going on right now about "what makes a great song... the songs on the radio are so substandard..." whatever. It's always like that. And we might not agree with what is on the radio or even what is popular with the masses. I watch television, hear music, am surrounded by songs and songwriters, and I rarely ever hear much that I consider even average. But some have impact. Some connect with their listeners.

What does it MATTER what I think? I have absolutely NO SAY in the matter.
It's why I really try not to say a lot of negative stuff about what is selling with the general public. I have no business telling them what they like or don't.

So if you are looking toward learning and participating in this, always look at everything from a variety of sides. Opinions are like other parts of the body. Everyone has them.

MAB

Hey Dana,

I think we've kind of hijacked this thread from Ande and I'd rather we give it back to him on lyric writing. If you can do your own post somewhere here, and I could respond and we could take it wherever you wanted, it might be a bit more interesting than just continuing on this one. Sorry Ande. I'd like you to continue on what you were talking about. I apologize for drifting away from your original post.

MAB

Mab,
Thanks for responding, yes great points all around. Yes, I agree we've hijacked this thread lol Sorry Ande! Mab, I take all your points
and will act accordingly! Cheers!-Dana

I'm ten pages into this thread. I think the previous 9 mostly focused on one guy's disputing anyone's authority to give advice.
In pages following there were some references to Ande's original tips and advice on Songwriting, but mostly it was argumentation and debate that were unproductive in any advisory value, unless you're an academician willing to mine the rare ore from the tailings.

I persevered only out of a mule-headed determination to get back to the discussion of 'tips', ideas about Songs and Songwriting to help people who may never have thought about those Structural aspects of Songs. Page 10 starts to do that. Now, fatigued, I'll come back later to wade through the next 10 pages.

Looking back, and I will go and look back at page one, I think most of Ande's tips are more focused on Structure than Lyric-Writing.
I'd like to bring the tips forward and start anew. Readers could suggest words to better express what they think each tip is saying, thereby refining the original, or muddying it up! LOL

But this is the kind of 'study' most aspiring Songwriters need, tips on how to spot their flaws, to see their gems, developing analytical and critical thinking skills. Otherwise, we keep writing with the same flaws, 'learning' those patterns thinking they're 'features', not 'bugs'.

Gotta rest the gray cells!