Hi Michele,

Just realized I didn't reply to this
yes stay away from those abusive people who take advantage

"know what to watch out for in the future."
The problem is these people start out as charismatic handsome and charming plus when people fall in love, we tend to
1) project (giving them qualities we want them to have, but they don't)
2) magnify the positives &
3) minimize the negatives or just be completely blind to them
4) repeat, Life gives us lessons, and it tends to repeat the lesson until we really learn the lesson. We also tend to attract the same types of people, sometimes your new love could be similar to those we've already had relationships. The difference is, if you get any early warning signs you are in another abusive relationship, have the courage to end it sooner rather hanging on and taking the abuse.

good to hear you're songwriting.

It's nice to have a killer title but it's more important to have a killer idea, approach or melody


you can't copyright a TITLE!
but if you build a valuable business around it you can trademark it.
IE Margaritaville

yep don't wait, get to work. It's fun to think it's looking great but when the creative flow is done editing begins.
"this song is gonna ROCK!"


"As to the song "In a Minute" yes, it is a duo, Mum and Daughter song,(and thanks, you gave me a few other idea's for the song) Stan and I have achieved that, but before I post songs up now, I want to get the melody, go over the lyrics like a fine tooth comb with my producer, because I've found when Rodney starts writing the music for the song, Yep those lyrics can change, and it's all worth while when it's finished."
It's OK for lyrics to change, I tell my cowriters I am for whatever is better.


"Ande, your TIPS are excellent!"
thank you

Thanks for the FREE advice, because I financially live from week to week.
you're welcome

My main suggestion to any songwriter is:
"don't spend a lot of money on a song until it's strong enough and really ready."
Sometimes we're over eager to get something done.
Also search hard to find production sources that provide excellence and affordability.

Ande

Hi Ande

Thanks for all your advice, I honestly really get it now hey. I'm now a VICTOR not a VICTIM, and can actually see that I won't be going into another abusive relationship ever again. I don't deserve not to be Loved, and I hope one day I do find the right man who will love me as much as I'd love him.

I have grown in myself a lot, and yes you are right, Harsh Lessons, I've learnt a lot on the way, they are so damn good at conning yah, but not this Aussie woman cause I can actually see it now, and I straight away remove myself from those types of people.

Ande, I used one of the 1-8 Chorus examples with Ms Perfect, and I was wondering would you mind showing me in a 1-4 1-5 1-6 1-7 of were the Hook should be in a chorus, as I'm currently working on a new song idea, and would appreciate your help.

As to finding an affordable producer, I have found him, Rodney is excellent, talented, and his fee's are very reasonable.

I noticed the views on your songwriting tips, Wow Ande. One day I hope one of my songs will get that many views.

Thanks Michele

Crazy that this has now had over 400,000 views

People get excited over busy and long posts. Same way on all message boards. The more traffic, the more traffic.

If you could only condense this thread into a Readers Digest story.

I wonder what name Airun is using now?...let me guess.

You know something else about this post is an amazing lesson and it has NOTHING to do with songwriting. It has to do with PROFESSIONALISM and DEALING WITH TROLLS and LESSONS ABOUT HOW PEOPLE FIND SUCCESS IN THE REAL WORLD.... and all you need to do is read the visceral hatred spewed by Airun (a born tool if ever there was one) and the unbelievably professional way in which Ande deflected not only his venom, but even his legit attacks. Folks, if you want to know why people like Ande find success and others do not, you need not do more than read the first page or more of this topic. It's brilliant. His tips are solid, especially for someone learning to write a song, but his actions offer the best lesson that people who do anything professionally on line could learn a lot from.

I had actually forgotten about the discussion at the top until someone mentioned the troll and I thought, I need to take another look. Sometimes trolls do have their place in moving things forward. Of course they're almost always cowards of unimaginable proportions, like Airun who wouldn't just use his real name and take the consequences (he truly defines trolldom).

Write on, =)

Brian

Dear Brian,

Thank you

I'd forgotten about airun. I just remember he was viscous mean and persistent at attacking me & Eventually.
http://www.broadjam.com/artists/songs.php?artistID=12856&mediaID=96362

http://www.broadjam.com/player/player.php?play_file=12856_96362

At some point I quit responding to his posts then blocked him.
All his posts show up as
*** You are ignoring this user ***

Some songs are lyrically sparse. Eventually is one of them. My lyric writing tips are tools not rules. I felt like he critiqued Eventually, a pop song, using country tools.

Melody and prosody are more important than lyrics. Songs like Yesterday or Unchained Melody or At Last don't have many words. When a song has few words, it makes room for interesting melodies. A recent example is Sam Smith's run away hit "Stay With Me"

[Verse 1:]
Guess it's true, I'm not good at a one-night stand
But I still need love 'cause I'm just a man
These nights never seem to go to plan
I don't want you to leave, will you hold my hand?

[Chorus:]
Oh, won't you stay with me?
'Cause you're all I need
This ain't love, it's clear to see
But darling, stay with me

[Verse 2:]
Why am I so emotional?
No, it's not a good look, gain some self-control
And deep down I know this never works
But you can lay with me so it doesn't hurt

[Chorus 3x]


But you know what? The melody is so amazing and his voice is gorgeous, I don't care. I feel no need to jump into the ridiculousness of saying, it's ok but I'd really like more imagery and story.

Each song has its own journey.

Also songs are art, they are our creations, at some point we need to have the courage to decide that when a song is done. Also, when you cowrite, you don't always get your way & sometimes the relationship is more important than being right or thinking you're right. Always separate song and writers, always approach with the intent to make the song better and people valued and appreciated.

What's interesting about Eventually was, I wrote the chorus, then invited Donna Aylor in on the lyric and we cowrote some country verses for it. Then we invited melody writer, Mark Oates in on the song and his 1st draft was kinda country blue grassy & uptempo. We immediately told him we didn't feel it matched what the lyric was about, being totally in love then suddenly dumped, heart broken, blindsided, aching for the one we lost, stuck in misery and futility.

As a side note Mike Reid & Allen Shamblin's early draft of "I Can't Make You Love Me" was uptempo and bluegrassy. The cowrite took several weeks, they had a break, after the break they got back together to finish the song. Mike told Allen I've got something I want you to hear. He played his rewritten version of "I can't make you love me" as an instrumental. It was the version we know. When Mike finished, he asked Allen what he thought of it and what he should change. Allen had no clue it was their song. He told Mike "That was the most beautiful amazing thing he'd ever heard and shouldn't change a thing." Then Mike told him, "It's our song "I can't make you love me" Then he played it again singing their lyrics.


Back to Eventually, Donna and Mark got together without me and totally rewrote Eventually's verses and bridge to what they are now. I wasn't part of that dialog, but I love what they did and totally support their choices. I am proud to be a cowriter of "Eventually." I'm happy to help people on their songwriting journeys.

Sometimes songwriters can be overly critical of other writers songs.
Sometimes songwriters are way more critical than fans.

But if you're a writer who's hoping for commercial success, you've got to develop your skills to a very high level, you've got to have the ability to be a tough self critic. The song game has changed, it's hard to get cuts, there are fewer acts, fewer songs & CDs sold. Many artists are also writers. Which is why labels now want 360 deals where they earn a piece of everything artists do.

If you want songwriting success, your best bet is to be an artist or find talented up & coming artists, songwriters or producers, get to know them as people, help them and cowrite with them or place songs with them. Also know if they get really successful, they get really busy and many might move on & up.

Brian, thanks for everything you've done over all these years, you are JPFolks but truly far from plain. Thank you especially for resisting the temptation to sell out in the early years during the internet boom. JPFolks is a great community and a true labor of love.

Ande

Last night I had the pleasure of witnessing Allen Shamblin performing
"I Can't Make You Love Me" and
"The House that Built Me"
In his story tellin he said this
http://youtu.be/onKsZTqGGn0

I hope these tips provide tools for folks to write stronger lyrics.

This post is deservedly one of the most viewed. Perhaps Ande will continue to add to it?

Thank you Brian, maybe I should. What else is there?

Ande,

You mean all the possible songwriting tips in the world are already in this post? So no need for all those books? heh.

I think the challenges today are very different than they were even 5 years ago, let alone 10-15-20. If anyone can address those new challenges with first hand knowledge, that would always be appreciated.

Brian

Hi Brian,

Forgive my absence. I think the lyric writing tips stand up, MAB is well versed on what it takes & has plenty to add. The music biz is a paradox, opportunity is wide open but it might be more challenging than ever to make a descent from just music.

There’s one book called
“Do What You Love and The Money Will Follow.”

There’s another called
“Should I Do What I love or Do what I Do so I can do what I love on the Side?”

This is the path I’ve chosen. There’s some careers where you can be exceptional and still barely eek out a living and there’s other careers where you can be average and do well.

MAB can probably tell you Nashville ain’t what it used to be, but it’s still possible to get cuts.

That's actually the advice Ihave been preaching for over 30 years... do what you love and if others love it and you make money, great, if not, you still win. Chasing success has always been tragic in my view unless you don't love music, you're just good enough to do it to make commerce.

We can even learn from badly written songs , just a thought

I wonder how many Learning song writers , study what is known as The Vowel Triangle

I found it years ago in a book written by a well known Berklee Professor who's name escapes me

at this time ,

I just remembered his name it is Patt Pattison he also does some handy you tube talks on the art

Another You Tube Must for us all is Leonard Bernstein

Oh and I dont know why many J P F writers look on Nashville as the Be all and End all of

getting cuts , there are so many other outlets in the world try looking at the Big Picture I would say

Matt, you're so correct about learning. Bad songs are much better teachers than great songs. Great songs first have to avoid all the fatal errors of bad songs THEN must have some level of artistry that can't be taught on top. So looking at bad songs can help you learn the fatal errors and how to avoid them and then you avoid those and add your artistry and hopefully it becomes brilliant.

Brian

That is all gospel truth Ande.

981k views Whoa!

Hey Ande!

Based on your advice and tips, would you have anything that I need to change about this song?

https://www.soundclick.com/html5/v4/player.cfm?songID=282035

Congrats Ande! Your post has joined the million view club!

Well a song that has been recorded by many many top Popular Singers


From a diabolical Fiftys Film titled Unchained also has very very cliche lines


its titled -- Unchained Melody--- So the story line is corny , if you look back at


the hits of YESTERYEAR you will find many similar examples, the author of UNCHAINED


Only had one other HIT ---- in a lifetime of writing ----so what ?

The Sales of the various recordings prove that sometimes simplistic words can be carried

by Hypnotic Melody

Great post!

The Chorus should be a Summary of what is going on in

the verses ?? Andy and his Co Writers have done exactly that

Are there any Radio Ready Recordings of this song?? I cant seem to find one

on YOU TUBE ???? just asking

I personally think the music could be doctored a little but its certainly got

a lot going for it as it is, Airun's Silly version is a Piss take, ignore him

he's never had a hit to my knowledge, so its just negativity on his part; his time

could be bettered by concentrating on his own stagnant writing career if he is

serious about it

DIANNE WARREN Cliche??? What is in your head AIRUN ??

She is the most innovative Song Writer of the last Thirty Years


She writes about LOVE , the same subject most Wannabe and Professional

writers write about ???

Simplicity in a hit song is the aim for most as long as the music and lyrics

have the right PROSODY

Warren composes the most beautiful modulations I have ever heard , and I am certain

most on here would agree,

At the end of the day Airun what have you ever written that could stir The Sleeping Beauty

from her three hundred year marathon sleep over ????

Wow! I never even saw this thread. My name was only mentioned twice. I'm like "BEETLEJUICE" you have to mention me THREE times for me to show up. LOL!

WRITING SIMPLE is the absolutely HARDEST thing to do. Because we have to be SIMPLE, yet NOT SIMPLISTIC. Finding as DIFFERENT A WAY to say a line or lines is the most important thing to get people to pay attention. A couple of interesting notes:

MELODY GETS THEM THERE. LYRICS KEEP THEM THERE.

One of the problems of today's modern writing, particularly new and amateur or up coming writers is the rapid fire nature of everything in our lives. I think a ot of that
is due to the INFORMATION OVERLOAD of our lives. Right now, I am viewing financial news programs on television, have my phone with messages, and looking at this and other threads to make sure I've answered everything I was involved in over the past few days. This is in addition to re-visitng a few of my own songs, and doing some fine tuning on them. So there is a LOT going on.

This is reflected in a lot of our culture. Fast cuts in television commercials, movies, fast paced action in movies, and rapid fire lyrics in rap, rock and even country songs. I think this is because of those reflections in culture and are part of the natural evolution of songwriting. And in many cases I DONT THINK THAT IS A GOOD THING. But now the listeners are involved in it and in many ways, expect it.

Matt, Having taken classes from Pat Pattison, AND WRITTEN A SONG WITH HIM, I can say that sometimes Pat needs to FOLLOW HIS OWN ADVICE. He can be a bit wordy as well. LOL! Very nice guy though and has actually referred some clients to me, so I would and did say the same thing to him. He aggreed. LOL!

Chyanne, I tell you what I see from most all the new comers. Those new younger, middle and older people who are making the trek to Nashville, as well as those I've seen around the country and Canada, and this has been building for at least the past 10-15 years. They come into every writers night, trying to get publisher, ASCAP, BMi appointments, play the songwriters festivals (on the open mics, rarely the real shows) and they suffer from two distinct maladies:

PLAYTOOMUCHITUS!
SAYTOOMUCHITUS!

Their songs are long winded, play too many musical changes, (changing guitar or piano chord on just about every beat) have no discernable followable melodies, no eveident hooks, not even really defined choruses, and really don't even make a point. They seem to think "MORE IS MORE" and usually the songs are so immentatly forgettable, you can't remember what they are even talking about WHILE THEY ARE SINGING THEM.

It is sort of reinforced by nearly everyone else doing the SAME THING. It doesn't help when AMERICAN SONGWRITER magazine and other similar publications give their "SONG OF THE MONTH " award, to some....well lets just say, questionable entrants. When is the last time you heard a seven verse, four different chorus and three bridge song on the radio. You know the writer is in trouble when it takes two full pages to get the entire lyric on.

When it really becomes HUGELY evident, is when you see those people over and over and then see A HIT WRITER, get up on the same stage. I just got back from Florida, with the FRANK BROWN SONGWRITERS FESTIVAL, where about 250 writers from all over were there. A lot of amateur writers and quite a few MONSTER HIT WRITERS. These people will play these five and six minute songs (preceeded by a six minute STORY about the writing of the song) and go on and on and on, losing most of the audience and your's truley.
THEN, you see a hit writer get up, lay some monster hit song, or something new they are working on and the difference is NIGHT AND DAY. They are direct, to the point, amazingly singable (you usually can hum or sing the chorus by the second one) tons of VISUAL FURNITURE in the entire song that you can SEE IN YOUR MIND'S EYE, and say more in two verses, choruses and maybe a bridge (and many of them don't even have those) and wrap the entire thing up in 3:00-3:30. It's astounding the differnces between those.

Another BIG THING is SUBJECT MATTER. You are correct that Dianne Warren writes about LOVE. The vast majority of hit songs in history were about that. Most new and amatuer writers write about NO LOVE. Their songs are ANGRY, BITTER, ACCUSITORY, AND GENERALLY SOME OF THE MOST DEPRESSING THINGS YOU HAVE EVER HEARD. Girls sing ACSS, (ANGRY CHICK SINGER SYNDROME,) and guys sing DDSS (DEPRESSED DUDE SINGER SYNDROME) and are more like self therapy sessions. As one person sitting next to me said after hearing a round of four female writers "I didn't pay to attend their therapy sessions"


So that is what the state of far too many newer writers go through. It reflects a lot of what goes on in culture with the angry world we live in. Art reflects culture and the other way around. But I wish they would learn to KEEP IT INTERESTING, AND SHORT! LESS IS MORE. (Yeah, I wrote that one too)

MAB


So; yes, you can learn more from the BAD songs, than you can from the GOOD OR GREAT SONGS. And anoth