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#1158721 11/20/19 10:14 AM
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Hi folks, for those of us who do not have a publisher, is it ok to sign with publishing adm. services, like Songtrust? I love the idea that anyone can apply for a license for any of my songs through them. It saves me from the part of the music business that I don't have time for. BUT, I'm finding out that if I want to license my songs for tv/movies, Songtrust gets a piece of the publishing and sites like christmasSongs.com will reject the song if they don't get 100% of the publishing.

What advice do you have on this topic? Thanks, Donna Dutchess


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I usually try to hold onto the publishing. Many publishers are small bottom feeders hoping to sign a song that will become popular without them doing the leg work, but they still get a share of the royalties. Been there , done that. Some services won't touch a song unless you own 100% of it, including the publishing. Being your own publisher has its good and bad points, but it gives you more control and a bargaining tool.

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I checked out Songtrust (if it is the same company) and they just collect royalties on music for a fee, and a percentage of what they collect. They don't claim a share of your publishing. There must be another company with close to the same name..

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Donna,

Sorry that I am just seeing this. I am not familar with SONGTRUST, but it is naive to think that people are going to use their companies, their political contacts and reputations that they have built up, usually over decades, to pitch and promote songs they don't have publishing on. What are they supposed to "get out of this?" The reason you go to a publisher or administrator is for them to get songs where you can't. That's the only reason. Supposedly they have ACCESS to industry people that you don't and that is the thing you are paying for.

If you wrote for a publisher and they either gave you a draw (salary) or paid for demos, or simply putting their reputation behind your song as opposed to many many other songs, often that THEY have paid for, staff writers, salaries, office space, web sites, etc. If the song doesn't EARN anything, there is no collections. Therefore, you are giving up 100% of nothing.

Songwriters have got to get used to a few reality facts. Songs don't earn what they once did. There are not hundred of thousand or million sellers anymore. There are ARTISTS that do very well financially but that is more often from ARTIST BRANDING than anything a particular song does. There was a period of time a few yeas ago, that LADY GA GA, had a very well performing song on the charts . It earned around $6000 during that time. Of course it was written by, performed by and the publishing owned by her. At the same time, through touring, merchandising and personal endorsements, she earned $68 MILLION dollars.

So most of these companies now are FEE FOR SERVICE because there is not much earned in the first place. They are going to collect an upfront fee. Publishing is either involved or not involved. To be honest, I'd be more interesting in assigning the publishing away because it is going to go somewhere else no matter what you do. If you are going to get a cut, especially from a major label or an independent artist with a major label connection, they are going to get the publishing. And the more reputable the company is, the more of the publishing they are going to get. you either take the deal or not.

A friend co-writer of mine is Jim McBride. He wrote some really huge hits for and with ALAN JACKSON. He wrote "Chasin that Neon Rainbow" and "Way Down Yonder on the Chattahoochie." Which were among Alan's first and biggest hits. Yet, he didn't get the publishing until the third big hit song. The publishing went to SONY, which was the publishing company he was involved in. And that was 30 years ago. It hasn't gotten any easier. He told me that "Publishing is what you EARN back after someone opens a door and the song performs well financially." What that means is if you have one or even two songs that perform well, earn money, you are going to get a chance to renegotiate a better deal.

The idea of giving up your publishing is mostly for FUTURE opportunities. You want ACCESS to the publishers contacts, their staff writers, the artists they have in development. Everything has to be looked at in a much longer perspective. You are working on things today, that are going to be having activity a couple of years or more in the future. So either paying fees, or assigning publishing is the price of admission. And also look at it like this. If a publisher has publishing and publishing is only paid out if a song EARNS royalties, they will work harder on making sure that song is well placed and supported. So that is the INCENTIVE that they have to help you along.

But, as always, you never have to pay a thing, never have to assign a thing. If it is working for you the way it is, then you continue to do what you are doing. If you want to change and have different results, you have to play be the rules established.

MAB

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Yes, as Everett said...There's a one time registration fee of $100 and 15% royalty commission. I would pass on this Donna.

Best, John smile

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Thank you again everyone for all the great advice.


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Hi All,

As Marc said it:
The idea of giving up your publishing is mostly for FUTURE opportunities. You want ACCESS to the publishers contacts, their staff writers, the artists they have in development. Everything has to be looked at in a much longer perspective. You are working on things today, that are going to be having activity a couple of years or more in the future. So either paying fees, or assigning publishing is the price of admission. And also look at it like this. If a publisher has publishing and publishing is only paid out if a song EARNS royalties, they will work harder on making sure that song is well placed and supported. So that is the INCENTIVE that they have to help you along.

I have been looking into it a lot lately, and agree. Later, after some success, you can talk to your, or another publisher about co-publishing, getting a % of the 50% that the publisher gets. Any, even a little bit of the publishing can add a lot to your profits.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost forever.

www.soundclick.com/johnsings
www.soundclick.com/johnwselleck
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When you write a Song, and put it in 'fixed form', your 'right' to 'copy' your Intellectual Property (IP) is 'bestowed' on you by Federal Law.
You 'own' that 'property' just as you own a pair of shoes, an acre of land, a painting, or the manuscript to a novel you wrote.
What you own gives you the 'right' to decide who will get to use your property. If you give someone the right to 'cut' (record) and release (put out on the public market) your Song, you, and they, should be interested in a formal contract, delineating what everyone expects to get out of the deal.
As the owner you may want to Register your Song with the Register of Copyrights of the Library of Congress. That Registration, dated the day they receive your application, affirms that you are the owner. If you are giving people 'access' to your IP there is always the chance someone unscrupulous could seize that opportunity to rob you. A Song can be worth a fortune. Copyright Registration is fairly inexpensive, and even easy in the electronic age. Copyright Law is Federal Law, and so, if you can prove 'access' and 'infringement', and you have a formal Registration, a Federal Judge will let your complaint onto his docket for hearing your case.

If you sign a contract with a Publishing Company they want to 'own' part of the Song, and the 'right' to collect Publishing Royalties.
You own those Publishing Royalty Rights.
You own Songwriting Royalty Rights too.
If you contract to 'assign' those Publishing Rights to a Publisher, a Publishing Company, the earning of those Royalties is what they are working for, their motive to 'Publish' the Song, pitching it to 'consumers', maybe Record Labels or other Industry organizations, maybe other Publishers, maybe artists or their management. That's the leg work they are offering as 'consideration' in a contract, what they are willing to do to earn those Publishing Royalties. Odds are they'll want 100% of those Publishing Royalty Rights. You might negotiate a different percentage, but odds are they're going to start at 100%, and may stay at 100%.

You own 100% of the Publishing Royalties Rights, and 100% of the Songwriting Royalties Rights.
Sometimes someone in the mix wants a piece of the Songwriting Royalties Rights too. They may ask you for a percentage. They may ask to change a word or two in the Song, making them a co-writer, gaining a 50% share of the Songwriting Royalties Rights.

The Publisher may not include a 'Reversion Clause' in the contract they offer you, specifying how long they have to get the Song 'cut' and 'released' before the contract ends and Publishing Rights 'revert' back to you, freeing you to contract with another Publisher. You should be sure there is a Reversion Clause. Otherwise, their 'right' to be paid if you ever do get the Song cut and released and it earns Royalties goes on forever.

As an adult you are 'bound' to whatever is specified in the contract you sign your name to. Since they write the contract, and they're in the business they're in, they're likely to make the terms favorable to them. An Entertainment Lawyer, well-versed in the nuances of that type of law, which may be different from commercial or criminal law, can be a good investment, to look over the contract, see that the Reversion Clause in in there and reasonable, and evaluate the 'reasonableness' of any and all other 'nuances' of your and their contractual agreements and obligations.

A Song used in a Movie or TV show is generally 'contracted' as a Synchronization License. A Christmas Song, popularized in a Movie, or TV show, might become a perennial favorite, playing every Christmas, and, depending on what the contract you sign says, may earn you a License fee every time it plays, year after year. If it pops out of the show and into perennial play on terrestrial radio, along with "White Christmas" and "Rudolf The Red-Nosed Reindeer", that 'Synch' License can be very lucrative.

So, it is in your interest to find people who can 'Publish' your Song, putting it into the market to see if someone will cut it, release it, and get it played in revenue-generating venues. Not getting robbed of your 'ownership' is a matter worthy of your caution and legal representation.
A 'contract' can tie a Song up for the period specified in the Reversion Clause. If they're just playing the odds, contracting and hoping you somehow get the Song to market while they're contractually in line for a share of the profits, the period may pass and the Song reverts to you, and you've lost that time. So you need to know who you're dealing with, how to read the contract they write, and something about their track record.

This is something we generally have not studied. We start out as hobbyists, tinkering with Songwriting for fun and personal fulfillment. Transitioning into a 'company' engaging in 'commerce' with other companies, other people, is a new area of study for us. If we're uneducated we can sign our names to contracts and undo all the pleasant prospects we've been looking forward to, sometimes with permanent damage and no 'recourse' to rectify the situation.

If the contract is reasonable, and the contracting partner has a reasonable reputation, and you feel your Song truly has merit, it may be worth taking a chance, but that doesn't mean go blindly into it. If you're a legitimate 'company' you keep good records. Who did you give 'access'? When? Where? Details, documented contemporaneously, at the time, play very well in court, if you end up there.
You consult among your team. You let the lawyer look it over. You study the business you're getting into. It makes the difference of whether you're taking the 10% chance or the 50% chance or some other percentage, higher or lower.

Last edited by Gary E. Andrews; 07/27/20 10:24 PM.

There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
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This is something we generally have not studied. We start out as hobbyists, tinkering with Songwriting for fun and personal fulfillment. Transitioning into a 'company' engaging in 'commerce' with other companies, other people, is a new area of study for us. If we're uneducated we can sign our names to contracts and undo all the pleasant prospects we've been looking forward to, sometimes with permanent damage and no 'recourse' to rectify the situation.
Hi Gary,

The moment anything goes from being a hobby, into looking at it as a business, you should take all available precautions. What those precautions will be depends on a few different things. One is your pocketbook, one is your intelligence, another is how much work you are willing to put into the venture to make it a success. If you have a big pocketbook, and don't mind spending it, you can hire others to do all your due diligence. If you have a fair amount of intelligence, and are willing to put in the time and effort necessary to save yourself money (especially if you can't afford it), then you learn to do the due diligence yourself.

You also have to be able to assess the success you may have by going down the different paths. Do you think you can gain the access needed to pitch the songs yourself, chase down all the plays, contact and sign your songs with artists, get the air-plays needed to make real money? If yes, then you don't need a publisher at all. If no, then you will need to assign a % of your ownership of publishing rights to them, usually 100%. If any of us are good/lucky enough to actually get anything published, then placed, then make enough money to be really noticed, then we can look at negotiating a better % the next time around.

When the publishing contract comes into your hands, do you have the money to hire an entertainment lawyer, and even if you have the money, do you need to? I have always believed that if it can be done with a decent mind, and doesn't involve brain surgery, I can research it, and learn how to do it on my own. Granted, some people either can't, or don't want to take the time.

Then it goes to the artist, and if he/she/they decide they want a piece of your songwriting % you have another decision to make. Are they a big enough artist that your song is almost guaranteed to make decent money? If they are not are they big enough for you to take a gamble on? In either case, you have to decide if you think your song is great enough you will get it signed with someone else who won't ask for a %. If you don't think so, then you have to decide how much of a % you are willing to give up, and then bargain to get to that point. If they are not big enough for either, you still might want to give up a small % just to get your name out there as having something published, signed, produced, and played. Or, if you think your song is great enough, you may just decide to wait it out.

Lots of decisions and lots of roads to choose. we won't always make the right ones but we should choose the ones we can live with.


Have a goodun,

John W. Selleck BMI Songwriter
A day without learning is a day lost forever.

www.soundclick.com/johnsings
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Yes, I think I stand by the standard advice, "Keep the project moving forward." You can negotiate, or try to. You can do due diligence to the limits of your comprehension of contracting and commerce. But if you've got any opportunity to get product to the open market it is probably in your interest to keep the product moving forward.
"Ah! There's the rub!" Shakespeare wrote. Something in the smooth operation of things 'rubs' and makes it apparent something's not right, and needs resolving before you can go forward. Resolve it. Solve it. Negotiate it. Study it. Consult on it. Whatever it takes, within reason, to keep the 'work' moving forward. Don't meet the devil at a crossroads at midnight, but keep working out of a 'No' or 'Not yet' to a 'Yes'.

Famous 'rubs' are Colonel Parker's management pattern and practice for Elvis Presley to sing your Song, requiring you to give Elvis Songwriting credit, making him a co-writer, and thereby accessing Songwriting Royalties. One young Dolly Parton had written, cut, and released "I Will Always Love You" and had a nice hit with it. The Elvis Company wanted to cut and release it, but Dolly said 'No' to the standard Col. Parker 'deal'. "It's already a big hit for me. Why should I do that?" Having Elvis sing it would have gotten a lot of plays, earning a lot of Royalties for Songwriter and Publisher, and record sales for the Label, and been a big crowd-pleaser at Elvis concerts. Dolly said, "No, thank you." Later when Whitney Houston did the Song, Dolly said, "That paid a lot of bills for me!" Elvis would have paid a lot of bills. But Dolly made the judgment that it was unreasonable to give up that much 'ownership' of her Song.

I think it's Big Tree Publishing that owns "Happy Birthday To You". If you want to sing it to customers in your restaurant or have a character in a movie or tv show sing it, you have to pay the Royalties.

Christmas Carols get played over and over every year at Christmastime. The owners get paid for all those plays, to the extent they can document them.

A Song can be worth a fortune, and an annual infusion of cash to the owners. A Publisher can re-pitch a good Song for someone to cover years after it is written, even years after it has been a hit for someone. A band, Nazareth, re-released Roy Orbison's "Love Hurts" and it was their major claim to fame. They likely made Roy money.

All this 'money talk' sometimes is repugnant to Songwriters whose 'feel' for their 'art' is more esoteric, more 'love-oriented' than commercial aspiration. But when you make that transition, you have to know something about the commercial world, law, contracting, deal-making, negotiation, hand-shaking, tolerance for what Hunter Thompson called, “The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.”

If you find yourself in THAT hallway, and they may not all be like that, you need to know how to protect your interests. Even if you are able to hire things done for you, knowing more about the actual legal ramifications of signing your name to contracts can enable you to help your helpers help you.

"Help! I need somebody! Help! Not just anybody! Help! I need someone!" The Beatles.

There's another 'rub'. The Beatles, John Fogerty, numerous others, lost the 'right' to 'copy' their own Intellectual Property, by not knowing what their signature was accomplishing to benefit someone else. John Fogerty was prohibited from playing his Songs, or even 'sounding like' himself in those Songs he'd made double-sided (45-rpm records had one Song on each side) hits. Paul McCartney found himself outbid to regain control of his Songs. He more recently regained control through some provision of law that most of us don't know about. Help can help.


There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
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"I think it's Big Tree Publishing that owns "Happy Birthday To You". If you want to sing it to customers in your restaurant or have a character in a movie or tv show sing it, you have to pay the Royalties" - Gary

No, it was owned (though only through intimidation) by Warner/Chappel. Fortunately someone had the balls to take them to court - and the person won. Happy Birthday is now in the public domain. Anyone can use it. I made a half dozen arrangements of it myself for licensing.

Best, John smile

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Joined: Dec 2006
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Well cool! Anything that has become that embedded in the culture, sung a million times a day by the common people, has made that transition into public domain, where the courts should recognize it as such. And did! Thank you John.
The lesson here is that what you read about how things work quickly becomes outdated and, if it is a matter of concern to your commercial endeavors, do a little up-to-date research so you don't stymie your own pursuits unnecessarily.


There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com

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