JPF Home Page Forums General Messages General Message Forum A word about my absence...

Oh I have a song called "She's a Jeanious...."

So I read this article Mark pointed me to and then Randy Newman and John Prine started singing this to me in my brain and so I knocked this off in short order...meant to be in the fanciful, humorous style of "Jesus: The Missing Years" by John Prine...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-genes-of-left-and-right/


Liberals Crawled Out of the Ocean


Intro
We're punching chads for who we like
but wait, could be more to it
studies show that it's our genes
that make us wanna do it
all that raw ancestral stuff
in our genes and limbic brains
scientific studies show
that it's a hellbound train

going back in time,
back to the primordial slime....to when..

CH
liberals crawled out of the ocean
conservatives crawled out of the sea
and they've been going at it
they've been going at it
they've been going at it
since the dawn of history

V1
liberals, out of the big blue ocean
said let's abolish billy clubs and rocks
then conservatives beat the crap out of them
bringing on the very first peace talks

V2
out of a stormy sea crawled the conservatives
booby trapped their caves, drank lots of tea
said stay off our sweet land or we will club you
we really just want you to leave us be..cuz

CH
liberals crawled out of the ocean
conservatives crawled out of the sea
and they've been going at it
they've been going at it
they've been going at it
since the dawn of history

(Instrumental with donkey brays and elephant's trumpeting)

V3
and though tens of thousands of years have gone by
nothing's really changed, just scenery
as I stand here ready to..punch a chad
some ancient voice
in the back of my head
says "yes on 23" ..cuz

CH
liberals crawled out of the ocean
conservatives crawled out of the sea
and they've been going at it
they've been going at it
they've been going at it
since the dawn of history

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Righteous_Mind


https://www.amazon.ca/Righteous-Mind-Divided-Politics-Religion/dp/0307455777

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-_Az5nZBBM

Great book attempts to explain why people are divided by politics and religion.

Delves deeply into the nature\nurture (it's both) argument and actually explains why Trump appeals to his base through loyalty, nationalism, and visceral emotions...while the Democrats tout "ideas and abstracts"...but grants each side is actually right and consistent in what they believe in at their core.

Health care, climate change etc are all about very complex ideas that are hard enough to define let alone tackle in civil discussion.

The whole "kneeling in solidarity" over "Black Lives Matter" pits these essentially good ideas ideas against "The Flag" and all that entails.

Its apples against oranges in many cases. Self reliance, stoicism and "<?><)*&( entitlements" vs "we cannot let someone's unfortunate circumstances with their health destroy them financially as well" . Both viewpoints have merit but the perspectives are different.

All in all a great read to try and understand why folks cannot find that elusive middle ground

Wow... Are all liberals truly so short sighted? Do none of you realize just how young America is or remember the tyranny we fought to free ourselves from 250yrs ago, which ultimately resulted in the abolition of slavery.....?

Oh, sorry.... I forgot. None of that is part of the curriculum anymore.... All the slavers moved to DC and rewrote the history books.... No wonder you believe that you crawled out of the sea and then fell out of a tree.....

Lets start with things we (hopefully ) can agree on.

Ice is cold !

Ice cools things off !

ok so far ?

When ice cools things off, it melts in the process.

once the ice has all melted, things start warming up.

Did i lose anybody?

if you're having doubts. or don't believe me, get a bowl of ice , an egg salad sandwich, and a thermometer..

put the eggsalad sancwich in the bowl with the ice on top. put the bowl in the sun, or beside a heater.

if you use the thermometer to check the ice/icewater hourly. it will be in the 30's as long as there is ice. the sandwich might get soggy, but it will not be dangerous.

this is where the earth is now, The ice has partly melted. Houston and new orleans have been made soggy, but things are not horrible. there is still glaciers and ice fields left. you still have winters and snowstorms because the ice is doing its best to keep things cool.

once the ice is all gone, the sandwich and the water it is in will start to warm up.. With the ice gone, the temperature may rise 30 40 or 50 degrees? the sandwich will soon become dangerous to eat.

once the glaciers finish melting, the planet will really start to heat up. who knows how much? I don't. i don't think anyone does for sure, but it will be really ugly.

Oh, one other thing.

if you choose to eat the hot egg salad sandwich and start to fieel sick, don't. assume that just because you had fevers in the past that went away, that this fever will. if some of the experts (doctors) say you should go to the hospital but other experts don't, maybe play it safe just in case.

you will have to take my word for this last part, unless you know of relatives with similar fates. aArelative of mine had a fever that killed her. it was not the first fever she had ever had. the others had gone up and down, but not the last one.

Lol..... Well, I can either cool my soup or warm my cold fingers with the same breath.......

John, I read your brief description of that book and it sounds like complete bullshit. I am NOT a Trump supporter but here's what I have seen...

a fat tax return this year that I was able to put to good use. Can you name a single thing impeachment/climate crazies have done for their constituents? I thought not.

countless media frauds over the past fifteen years that have accelerated during the past five. liberals and the media are hand in glove. This puts Trump ahead by default, not loyalty. Media fraud also plays into climate change skepticism. the media has only itself to blame.

liberals are not a group of "abstracts and ideas", they are a group of fraudulent claims, libel and slander, not to mention cities riddled with high crime rates. The murder rates in Baltimore, DC, Detroit, Chicago, St. Louis etc aren't abstract and they're a direct result of soft-on-crime policies.

While liberals have many sincere devotees, more and more their leaders display a religious fanaticism on a widespread level. Again, that puts Trump ahead by default. The more the media are exposed as liars, the more his supporters are inclined to believe him, rightly or wrongly. again, the media has only itself to blame. If and when an actual scandal does occur, the public will, through no fault of their own, be slow to believe what the media says.

People have always been divided by religion and politics. The weather has remained the same in my lifetime, in my experience. However, this is different...major news outlets claiming something about a politician they don't like, only to be proven liars within hours, with NO consequences. And not only politicians, but teenagers, such as Nick Sandman.

The media fumbles the ball on an almost daily basis. Trump's just picking up the ball and walking into the end zone.

Tony,

My lyric is simply an extension of the ideas in the Scientific American article, but exaggerated to such a degree that it's satirical, cartoonish, and purposely absurd: that cavemen were basically at odds over the same issues we are today. Meant to be a funny concept.

Some might find that article absurd to begin with, cuz it attempts to prove a rather tall premise. If you remember initially I was joking with FD that his premise sounded like an Enquirer headline that read, "Scientists discover liberal and conservative genes!" --and then whattyaknow...scientists were actually making a case for this!

On a serious note, that article did help me understand that both nature and nurture are working together, I think. Nurture guides our specific choices, while nature tends to gravitate us in one general direction or another.

I was trying to keep in the initial spirit of this thread, which was to use satire in a fanciful setting. That's all. The lyric was intended to be humorous and bi-partisan and I'm sorry you didn't find it so.

Mike

Mike's lyric is humorous and bipartisan. John merely suggested that a book was interesting. What on earth set you guys off? I thought it was liberals who were supposed to be easily triggered.

I like to think that I'm smart enough to respond to obvious political divisiveness without adding to it. However, that’s getting harder these days as Christians are largely ignored. Speaking of good reading.... psychology is just the statistical study of human nature. The Bible is the greatest book on that subject ever written. Don’t believe me....? Read Ecclesiastes

Saying liberals/conservatives crawled out of the ocean says nothing negative about Creationism or negates it in any way.

The image is trying to show how absurd the idea is--of crawling out of the ocean as fully formed liberals or conservatives, or liberals and conservatives in the making. Clearly, the idea of primodrial slime being liberal or conservative is absurd, right? I exaggerated what the article was saying for comedic effect, but there's no knock on Creationists or Biblical beliefs that I can see.

If anything, the title line could be read as poking fun at Darwinists who would fancy that politcal philosophies started with apes (granted, that's not what the article said, just that the "origins" of those two ways of thinking were there) and "liberals/conservatives crawled out of the ocean" could be read as being in tacet agreement with Creationism by process-of-elimination, because the exaggeration aims to make the Darwinistic caveman liberals and conservatives seem highly implausible by using humorous situations, like liberal cavemen wanting to abolish billy clubs.

Leaving Creationism unscathed.

May I suggest that perhaps your anger is misplaced? It seems like you are upset with science because evolution is usually the unassumed starting point of many things they investigate. My piece is poking fun at science by adopting an exaggerated stance towards what they said about liberal and conservative "genes."

Mike

You're forgiven Mike.... In fact, I must admit, every time I see Maxine Waters' face I do tend to question my own stance on the subject...

This one pokes fun of the whole Evolution Creation thing as well. Before I post, I never understood why there was a need to make evolution an evil concept and against God. I was taught in school that God worked in natural ways, it doesnt get more natural than evolution. Darwin himself believed in God, but he thought religion was a survival mechanism.The Catholic church accepts it now.

Anyway an outtake from Bruce, pretty underrated tune.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1K3Ext-0tM

Part Man, Part Monkey

They prosecuted some poor sucker in these United States
For teaching that man descended from the apes
They coulda settled that case without a fuss or fight
If they'd seen me chasin' you, sugar, through the jungle last night
They'da called in that jury and a one two three said
Part man, part monkey, definitely

Well the church bell rings from the corner steeple
Man in a monkey suit swears he'll do no evil
Offers his lover's prayer but his soul lies
Dark and driftin' and unsatisfied
Well hey bartender, tell me whaddaya see
Part man, part monkey, looks like to me

Well the night is dark, the moon is full
The flowers of romance exert their pull
We talk awhile, my fingers slip
I'm hard and crackling like a whip

Well did God make man in a breath of holy fire
Or did he crawl on up out of the muck and mire
Well the man on the street believes what the bible tells him so
Well you can ask me, mister, because I know
Tell them soul-suckin' preachers to come on down and see
Part man, part monkey, baby that's me

Love the Springsteen..Sounds like Tunnel of Love era stuff or maybe Human Touch/Lucky Town..

I love how well within himself he stays but just adds more grit to his voice to be funkier sounding..

Yeah, I love the artsy swing/shuffle feel too, it would have to involve swinging if were talking about monkees. Brilliant!

Some of his outtakes are better than the stuff he released. Usually the more current stuff he didnt use was better than the current stuff he did use. He doesnt have a Born To Run laying around though....

Hard to argue with any of that, Tony. Teachers have been saying this for years (though not as entertainingly).

He's absolutely right about education. The kids who exceed in the classic classroom get ahead of other kids who are different.

The problem is it's not going to change, so even if a kid is not book smart, he has to try to be in order to do something with his life. Otherwise, hell end up like us bsing on a songwriting forum......lol

I agree there is more than one type of smart, but book smart is the only one we recognize. If you ever listened to some of our great songwriters talk, they clearly have intelligence, even though they may have not done well in school.

And I agree ADD, way over diagnosed.

The most important point he makes is about curiosity. You have to want to learn. Absent a mental impairment, a lack of curiosity is probably the most reliable indicator of stupidity.

Valuing our teachers more is another important point. Of course, that means paying them more, and that means the rest of us being willing to pay a little more to make it happen. Good luck with that.

Curious usually involves interesting subject matter. Ive never been curious of the answer to this.... 2(a -3) + 4b - 2(a -b -3) + 5

But I am interested in Anatomy and Physiology, History, Science, Songwriting, Risk management, Sports, Dogs

But im not the kinda guy who can miss only one question on an SAT, I know one such guy, he became a dentist

I've never been curious about that either, but I know folks who are. As he says, everyone is different.

My daughter teaches foreign languages in high school. It's easy to spot those who are interested, curious about the way a language works or the way it can help them explore the world. In Spanish, most kids are there because they have to be. In French, most are there because they want to be. The difference is huge.

and oh yeah making teachers important would help. I remember some teachers having complete command over their class, the minute they walked in, you shut up and paid attention. Others, you could be throwing paper airplanes, and the teacher could have walked in and you didnt know or didnt care.

Teaching is a talent, not everybody has it. When I think of the abuse some of my teachers took from students, total lack of respect. I may have been in my own world at times, but I never disrespected even the goofiest teachers.

He also makes a good point about Finland... What he doesn’t say is that Finland is 72% Christian and still has morning prayer in school. Here in the early 60's prayer and the Bible were removed from public schools and replaced with politics. Our schools are now public indoctrination facilities largely governed by whatever is considered politically correct.... It’s no wonder the kids are bored and the teachers don’t give a damn. It’s also no wonder that it’s mostly new college graduates, up to their eyeballs in debt, marching in the streets insulting the rich and powerful, completely disillusioned about what it means to be free in America.

And that’s not to mention how easily those same angry kids, who believe they’ve experienced enough truth about life, can be re-purposed for any other "progressive" activist political agenda.....

I'm sorry CG, but I don’t believe that we're up against a new religion.... What we’re up against is an old foe disguised as democracy. The "progressive liberals" only want power, authority and complete control.... just like all socialists/communists do. In order to gain that kind of authority the first thing you have to do is get rid of religion....... and guns.

Don't confuse religious education in schools in European countries with religious belief in society. It is often a relic of an earlier age and, frankly, an opportunity to goof off or catch up on sleep. I had religious education at school in Scotland, but that country, like most of Europe is far more secular and less religious that the US. I was pretty sure that this would be the case in Finland too, so I did a little research. According to a Gallup Survey in 2011, 27 % of the Finns believe in a Christian God. Depending on which survey you look at monthly church attendance varies from 4 to 14 %.

I know many "progressive liberals," and have never encountered a single one who wanted "power, authority and complete control," nor one who was a socialist. "Liberal" is not "socialist" by definition. I've seen socialism and it doesn't look like "liberalism" in the US. You can't just say these things and make it so.

Tony, you're not "up against" anything. Some thoughtful, concerned people want to mitigate as far as possible the effects of climate change and reduce the rate in the future. This is not an attack or a threat. Nobody is at war with you. Nobody wants to do this out of a lust for power or a desire to control you. The Pope is not behind it. The UN is nothing more than a useful forum for discussion and can't force any country to sign up to a resolution if it chooses not to. The uncomfortable fact is that this is a problem which will affect everyone on the planet, and, like it or not, it's going to require a certain amount of international cooperation, maybe even between countries that don't have much in common in other respects.

"You can't just say these things and make it so...."

Yea', I have no doubt that you have many "progressive liberal" friends and slept through your religious studies.... More importantly, I never said "liberal equals socialist" lol.....
You're right, most Americans don’t have a clue what socialism really looks like... That’s why a phony political agenda like "global warming" is the perfect disguise. Even Hitler rallied an entire nation into believing that they were God's own chosen perfect people to rule the world by virtue of moral/intellectual superiority.... but he started with much smaller political issues.

Oh, and just for the record, constitutional conservative doesn’t always equal Christian...

Hey, I was the one staying awake LOL. Actually, we didn't learn much in those classes. That was more for Sunday school. Believe it or not, I won several prizes for scripture knowledge. I attended a Christian youth group after school. I read the bible every night. I know my stuff

I have many liberal friends, but not all liberals I know are friends. Some are a pain in the ass, but the one thing they have in common is that they are not out to get you or control you LOL. As for tackling global warming being a back door for socialism or having anything to do with Hitler, well I think you just ran afoul of Godwin's Law in the worst way.

I think I'll bow out of this thread now, at least as far as the arguing is concerned. I like you far too much to keep arguing with you about something we both obviously feel strongly about

HitlerHitlerHitlerHitlerHitlerHitlerHitlerHitlerHitlerHitlerHitlerHitlerHitlerHitlerHitlerHitler.......

At least I give credit where credit is due. H I T L E R proved if you tell a big enough lie often enough, and to enough people, then the lie will be perceived as truth. Gee, I wonder which political party controlling the media today has been most guilty of that???

Three monkeys sat in a tree...
One fell, brushed himself off, and climbed back up again.
The next one fell, bumped his head, saw God, and ascended to a higher plane.
The third monkey fell, got pissed, and chopped the damn tree down...

"...proved if you tell a big enough lie often enough, and to enough people, then the lie will be perceived as truth. Gee, I wonder which political party controlling the media today has been most guilty of that???"

ooh, ooh -- I know the answer to that one: Trump, fox news and the republican party.

Kevin...If a person listens to Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh without skepticism, they are making themselves the useful idiots of a ratings race and political propagandists. No doubt of that. Hannity often bends a narrative to the right by leaving out salient facts. (the rest of the story)

And....

If another person believes Rachel Maddow, Acosta and Lemon, they too, at the very least, are making themselves just as much, the useful idiot of a ratings race and political propagandists. The Mueller report made that very clear...........................yes, it did. The CNN crew and Master Madcow bring in panels of people who try to present their wants and biases and misc rumors as facts.

The only lasting realities are things like the appointments of SCOTUS and appellate court judges. That is where the rubber meets the road and the overall battle is being lost or won. That is the real focus.

Enjoy your Sunday.

Ps...This impeachment thing is an empty gun.
My prediction....The most notable thing that it will do is keep the elitism and privilege of "regular Joe" and his rehab son in the spotlight. His candidacy is likely a dead man walking. The hard left, "crazycrats" will take him out before Trump does. Great entertainment though.

Well, Gee Whiz, What do I say here,
OK, I've got it. YOU CAN FOOL SOME OF THE PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME AND ALL OF THE PEOPLE SOME OF THE TIME, BUT YOU CAN'T FOOL ALL OF THE PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME.

Now on that note why did Donald Trump get elected president? The people looked at their economic situation, then looked at Hillary Clinton, and said, Eight more years that stiff, I don't think so and passed on the march to socialisim. Nuff said.
It's a tough life but I wouldn't have it any other way

+1 (in agreement with Marty)

***********************

Until everyone can agree what is factual and what is BS, nothing will change. And the momentum seems to be towards more fervency over ones own particular facts or "alternate" facts..and political ideologies are ideologies, not facts, and because there's two different slants built in, there's never going to be agreement on everything, based on those built-in biases. This is why we need to keep tolerance in the foreground of our minds before things get too out-of-hand.

My fear is that all this will escalate..cuz some people already invite the idea of a civil war between political parties.

And that some Christian conservatives invite Global Warming and religious wars cuz they will help bring about end of days? Where do they draw the line? Is it okay to want that, but not try to hasten it?

When I see, say, the words "let's put all the liberals in one place and nuke 'em" in passing conversation here, or even "I wouldn’t waste time with minorities" writ with absolutely no irony, in a lyric here at JPF..it makes me shudder and feel a bit ashamed that I am a member, and then to watch folks say, yes! --hooray, the First Amendment..

....shrugs...

But at least with that song, and songs in general..I am more apt to be swayed by a song or first-hand heartfelt experiential anecdotes than by political theory..

I doubt I can make it through another year of this..I wish the election was this November..


Mike

"political ideologies are ideologies, not facts, and because there's two different slants built in, there's never going to be agreement on everything"

@Mike... You are a true idealist. I see no "progressive activism" in anything you just said, God bless you. You really do seem to just want everyone to get along..... However, even and especially as a Christian I must ask you, do you believe it's possible? You see, as a "Constitutional Conservative" I hold dear to my equal rights as an American citizen to freedom, liberty, justice, freedom to worship, freedom to pursue happiness...... But as a Christian I fully realize and respect where these concepts originate from. At the very beginning of the Bible we are taught that tyranny is the enemy of freedom and will always take full advantage of the naive, the complacent, and those with more heart to forgive than fight. The Bible teaches there are only two kinds of people, those who serve a higher calling, and those who only serve themselves.... And no man can serve two masters. So you see, to ignore the demands of a minority that wants more than what is already Constitutionally given is no sin... The Bible also plainly illustrates that every house divided will surely fall. You're right to wish for something that everyone can agree upon, support and defend.... Our forefathers always intended for that to be our Constitution. However, no political party like today’s "progressive liberal socialist democrats" have ever been more anti-constitutional.

Tony,

This is rather Old Testament to me. Jesus said turn the other cheek.

It's this "fight" that I'm feeling in you that makes me want to duck and cover, sometimes, no offense, and IMHO It is a mirror image of other religious extremists that become militant, like the Taliban, for instance. How would the devil himself not be for an all out cataclysmic religious war? This same war that some Christian extremists claim to look forward to as it will "bring on the Apocalypse?"

And to answer your initial question, yes. I do think everyone can get along in society, in a "civilization," though there will always be it's "discontents" as we must ALL be constantly shoving down our more primal urges deep into our subconscious, where they are always leaking out into day to day life. I think that urge to fight is part of those primal urges that are leftovers from an earlier era of mankind., buried deep in our ancient ancestries, and yes, perhaps our genes, lol.

I think Jesus' way is more evolved, at least in my interpretation of Him, which may differ from yours. And if my interpretation makes me a naive lamb, ready for slaughter, fine.


Mike

Here is where you reassure me that by "fight" you are just speaking of (fighting with) words and engaging others that think differently than you with your concepts, ideas, and beliefs ... (nervous LOL...)

Matthew 5:38-40......38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.

"Jesus’ teaching in this passage has a very narrow application. It’s mainly concerned with the issue of personal revenge or retaliation (eye for an eye), not self-defense. Christ is telling His followers that they need to let go of the desire to “get back” at others who have wronged them in some way and focus on forgiveness. Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, and other great thinkers in the history of Christian theology have explained this verse as follows. Disciples of Jesus should be willing to suffer personal injustices (see 1 Corinthians 6:6, 7). But they should also realize that loving one’s neighbor sometimes implies a willingness to use force. In other words, we should always be prepared to defend others who are being abused and mistreated in some way. Complete non-resistance, then, is not necessarily an absolute standard for the Christian life."

Jesus also said "Love your enemy", which is the one I have the most trouble with lol... But if your enemy is intent on your life then the time for negotiations are over, you don’t offer your enemy your throat.

Many evil men have done many evil things throughout history in the name of many gods.. But the Bible does not commission men to judge and subdue the earth in Christ' name, in fact it plainly states the opposite. If I seem to welcome Armageddon it's simply because I know not to fear it. Vengeance is the Lord's. Until then I wait and have faith that God will use me however He sees fit... "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done". But rest assured, God has use for lambs as well.

The lamb signifies forgiveness.... Just in case you missed that

Ha,Ha,
I just had a funny thought. Suppose Trump and Pence resigned and left Nancy Holding the Bag. The speaker of the House is third in line of the presidency. I can just see it now, Nancy would say, What Happened! Now what Coach? She would find out what Pogo said, We have found the enemy and it is us.

I dont think the issue is over prayer in school, the issue is what KIND of prayer. Hail Mary, full of grace, would work nicely in a Catholic School, but in a public school...

You could then say, ok lets make it a Christian prayer. But a Christian prayer may not go over well with Jewish kids, or Muslim Kids or Hindu kids.

Id hate if I was going to school and the morning prayer consisted of Thor and Zeus. What am I supposed to do?

I do totally agree that the school systems are liberal and they are catering to agendas that dont seem normal to many.

They have groups in schools that are designed to encourage kids to be gay, be transgendered, to be soft, to be emotional, to expect life to be a fairy tale. Although, it is good that kids have some support for this, because many of them kill themselves because they dont think anyone will accept them. Double edged sword

Lets face it most teachers are liberals. And kids dont relate to their parents, so teachers become a big influence.

I never liked and dont like when teachers talk politics.

You see it more in college where teachers are REALLY liberal and are not afraid like some may be in grade school

I watched a fight between a liberal girl, who was telling the teacher that her father pretended his leg was broken to get sent home during Vietnam. Some kid in the class was probably republican called him a wussie. And the teacher started defending the girl. And the republican kid stood his ground, he didnt back down from the teachers which I kind of admired. Basicly told the teacher "hey, i have a right to my opinion, and im not paying for this class to hear yours" Hard to argue with him.

The reason though most kids are up to their eyeballs in debt is because school costs more than some houses do. I remember back in the day kids would say "well ill get a job on campus to help pay for the semester" Not any more, their parents dont even make enough to pay for college today.

its still on the parents to get involved in their kids lives.

" A man fell off a cliff and grabbed on to a tree branch for dear life. He said Lord, if there is anybody up there please help me!"

He heard a voice saying "if you believe in me let go"

He said "is there anyone else up there?"

Well The Bible confuses me. None of the Gospels were written until 70 AD. Now, i cant even remember what I had for breakfast yesterday, and Im expected to remember what Jesus said 40 years ago? On a mountaintop, with no pen or paper to jot it down, no recorder to record it?

There are also other Biblical stories that have been unearthed that are not even included in The Bible and they paint Jesus in a much different light.

My point is people can quote the Bible all they like, its not likely any of it happened the way its written, or if at all

The only historic facts we have is Jesus being born, and Jesus being crucified. Other than that we have nothing.

I do believe in God, I am a Christian, but I battle these thoughts all the time.

Trump got elected because of Middle Class America. Plain and simple. Ya see, poor people get medicare and food stamps and assisted housing, rich people get tax breaks and are well off anyway. What does the middle class get? Insert your own expletive here >

THAT is why he got elected because he appealed (lied) to the middle class, saying he would help them. He knew thats where his chance was. But Trump has never been middle class, not even as a child, his youngest son Baron has his own floor in a penthouse. He understands the middle class as much as I understand Swahili!

And you are right the public were tired of The Clintons, wanted to try something else.

But he hasnt helped the middle class in any way, he's made wealthy people wealthier.

I do find Trump entertaining and I DO agree with him on some things, much like I agree with Archie Bunker on some things. I just dont agree with his delivery, and he lies so often you dont even expect the truth from him.

I dont know who im gonna vote for, I couldnt bring myself to vote last time.

From my Canadian perspective, I think it is right to say Trump is there as much in office due to pro Trump voters and anti Clinton voters.

So much I gleaned from the endless political conversations here during the last election...plus the disturbing lesson that Republicans and Democrats cannot be civil to one another. There is no political discourse in the US anymore, no civility in discourse...just attacks.

And I am on record here as saying that, once elected president, he had to be given a chance. This is out of respect for the Office itself.

But IMO he blew the chance. Part is his own actions....which includes everything from repeated lies, repeated personal attacks on US citizens he does not like or has some beef with....to whatever hits the news....and it is definitely also due to Democrats opposed to his and the R agenda at all costs.

What the US needed\needs is a unifier, someone who leads by example, someone who understands leadership by example and concensus, not by threats or "you're fired" ultimatums.

Leadership is about setting a tone, controlling "the climate" of the country and its people. It's in what business is called "culture" where leaders set standards of behaviour, encourage, mentor, provide a sense of possibility, set expectations and equip for success....

Trump has always been about "top down" "do as I say or face the consequences" . That the country does not behave that way, that people in Washington don't act like "yes boss employees" has got to be so frustrating for Trump who is so used to having employees act on every order.

Today, now, The Ukrainian Affair is rearing its head. I have no idea how it will pan out...but I do know what I read in the transcripts. I leave it to Congress and smarter people than myself who will have access to all the unfiltered by media information to decide whether to impeach...then to The Senate to act on the evidence should it go to trial. Getting that passed will be a challenge as Republican insiders have already said it will get squashed at that level...I might add before the evidence has even been formalized and examined in the House

Whatever happens, this will polarize the country and we know that Trump will not go down silently. Like a cornered animal he will lash out without a thought except for his own survival at any cost. If it fractures the country (he has already repeated the possibility of a "civil war like fracture" if he is impeached...plus he says Mr Schiff, the House Intelligence Committee chair, should be arrested for treason)......well so be it. It is all about Trump...not an iota (well very little) is about the USA.

Now, i cant even remember what I had for breakfast yesterday, and Im expected to remember what Jesus said 40 years ago ...... At that time there were few that could read or write and there was a strong oral tradition - It's been proven all around the world that most times there were fewer errors with oral tradition than scribes written pages. (look at the Thou shall not kill which is actually thou shall not murder - a mistake in which version of ancient Greek the original was written in). So in fact people could and often did pass along information in a way we modern people haven't a clue about - especially when 98% of all our information is digital.
Trump appealed to the middle class because the Democrats abandoned them. The Democratic party has nothing to offer middle America.
The real crime of Trump is that a total amateur walked away with the big prize by out playing the professionals - This was a bigger upset than the Washington Nationals beating the Harlem Globetrotters.
On the plus side Trump hasn't started all the wars the Obama crew did (7). They created more mayhem than both Bush's. They created Civil wars in the Ukraine, Libya, Yemen, Syria. Millions dead and all that has been swept under the rug. If Trump should be impeached - Obama should be tried as a war criminal. For example the overthrow of a pro western government in the Ukraine was done only for money. They finally took the Russian 17 billion bailout with no restrictions over the US/EU offer of 5 billion and give up all mineral rights. Thousands died for a hoped for profit that the rebels have kept from the coup masters.

Sue...please tell me about the 7 wars that Obama started....and exactly how he started civil wars in Ukraine, Libya, Yemen and Syria. It is totally at odds with my understanding of international affairs so I am willing to be educated

Sue, you have it almost completely backwards. The government in Ukraine was not pro-western. It was led by pro-Russian stooge Viktor Yanukovych. Most of the country was pro-western, but he took the Russian money and declined to sign a trade agreement with the European Union. It wasn't just the carrot of the money but also the stick of the crippling financial retaliation that Putin threatened if the deal was signed, as well as Yanukovych's pro-Russian sentiments. The outrage among the population at this move is what led to Yanukovych's overthrow and the subsequent Russian actions against Ukraine and its new pro-western government, including the invasion of Crimea and the eastern parts of the country. Obama's involvement consisted of imposing sanctions on the Russians in response. It's a bit of a stretch to call that starting a civil war. As for the stuff about mineral rights and hoped-for profits for the "coup-masters," that comes straight out of the Russian troll factory handbook. A lot of what is spread online originates in places that many who consume it don't realize.

Sue, I have no problem with belief in strong oral traditions, its just not so pinpoint accurate that we can go around posting quotes from the Bible, to use as arsenal in a debate.

If oral traditons are so accurate, that would mean that The Koran would have to be correct too. They have a Prophet, Mohammad, and stories of his life and death too. As do Hindus. So do the Mormons. Everybody has a book on these oral traditions. People cant even agree upon what happened in The Obama administration which took place 5-10 years ago, yet we know precisely what was said 2,000 years ago?

The Bible and other books are moral codes. They teach goodness and give hope. They dont reflect history.

Btw, Republicans dont have anything to offer Middle Class either, It hasnt mattered who was President, the middle class always get and got the shaft. And its no different today.

I wont go into who is a war criminal, That stuff seems to be a matter of whos story you believe. I guess its much like the many bibles out there.

Here is another bit of my theory backed up.

Do we have any Republicans who think OBAMA was a good President?

Do We have any Democrats who dont think Trump did much wrong on his phone call?

Ya see? Its all pre determined, we just sign up for one or the other. If the truth is out there, nobody knows what it is.

It seems Canada and Trudeau have their own set of problems