Who's Online Now
26 registered members (Gavin Sinclair, CTthomas, Dave Rice, E Swartz, couchgrouch, Guy E. Trepanier, Calvin, AntonyRobWells, 7 invisible), and 272 guests, and
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Shout Box
Member Spotlight
Two Singers
Two Singers
Northern Alabama
Posts: 9,586
Joined: February 2001
Show All Member Profiles 
What's Going On
Heart Broke In LA
by Steve Altonian. 10/14/19 09:42 PM
by CTthomas. 10/14/19 09:11 PM
What song on JPF do you remember the most
by E Swartz. 10/14/19 08:10 PM
Long Way Home
by Guy E. Trepanier. 10/14/19 06:13 PM
Honky Tonk Angel
by couchgrouch. 10/14/19 06:11 PM
I Give Up
by JaneK. 10/14/19 04:53 PM
I Have My Girl (C. Kiphen)
by JaneK. 10/14/19 04:38 PM
Spawned By The Swamp
by Calvin. 10/14/19 04:29 PM
Little Lies
by Michael Zaneski. 10/14/19 01:36 PM
Music In Two Movies...
by John Lawrence Schick. 10/14/19 12:37 PM
October 13, 2019 Columbus Area
by Gary E. Andrews. 10/14/19 08:55 AM
Mama Julz Still Pumping It
by niteshift. 10/14/19 03:17 AM
First Love, Last Love (Final Studio Version)
by Steve Altonian. 10/13/19 11:40 PM
Brian's FB post and surgery news
by Two Singers. 10/13/19 08:53 PM
Nothing to agree upon...
by JAPOV. 10/13/19 07:27 PM
You’re The Best He’s Ever Made
by CTthomas. 10/13/19 07:20 PM
Step In To The Light
by Calvin. 10/13/19 06:33 PM
New Heart
by Two Singers. 10/13/19 05:15 PM
I Have My Girl
by CTthomas. 10/13/19 03:08 PM
An Unkindness of Ravens
by CTthomas. 10/13/19 02:23 PM
They’re Comin’ After Our Kids!
by CTthomas. 10/13/19 02:11 PM
Back From Who I Am 1st rewrite
by CTthomas. 10/13/19 01:51 PM
My Cheesy Song - first post!
by Gavin Sinclair. 10/13/19 01:05 PM
::: KICK YOU OUT (Uke) :::
by Michael Zaneski. 10/13/19 12:49 PM
Its Words that Kill
by ckiphen. 10/13/19 10:50 AM
Too Good To Be Forgot
by Marvin Adcock. 10/13/19 07:05 AM
Leaves on the Wind
by couchgrouch. 10/12/19 09:28 PM
by JaneK. 10/12/19 05:04 PM
The Finer Things in Death...a novel
by couchgrouch. 10/12/19 01:06 PM
I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves
by Michael Zaneski. 10/12/19 12:24 PM
Top Posters(All Time)
Calvin 19,774
Travis david 11,592
Kevin Emmrich 10,554
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,586
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 8,844
glynda 8,613
Mike Dunbar 8,574
Tricia Baker 8,318
Colin Ward 7,907
couchgrouch 7,570
Corey 7,357
Dave Rice 7,350
Wyman Lloyd 6,578
Mark Kaufman 6,549
Joe Wrabek 6,403
Vicarn 6,137
ben willis 6,105
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,725
Linda Sings 5,604
niteshift 5,486
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Neil Cotton 4,907
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,652
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,363
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Tom Shea 4,179
Cindy Miller 4,178
Roy Cooper 4,118
nightengale 4,092
TamsNumber4 4,058
Caroline 3,865
MFB III 3,821
Kolstad 3,813
Dan Sullivan 3,710
beechnut79 3,500
Dottie 3,427
joewatt 3,411
E Swartz 3,380
Bill Cooper 3,279
John Hoffman 3,199
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
PopTodd 2,890
Harriet Ames 2,870
Nigel Quin 2,812
MidniteBob 2,707
Nelson 2,570
Tom Tracy 2,558
Polly Hager 2,526
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Hummingbird 2,401
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,242
Judy Hollier 2,232
Wendy D 2,214
Erica Ellis 2,202
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,012
DukeWill 1,984
floyd jane 1,982
maccharles 1,959
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Iggy 1,650
Noel Downs 1,620
Rick Heenan 1,597
Cal 1,574
Martin Lide 1,556
Jack Swain 1,554
Pete Larsen 1,537
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
RogerS 1,462
Tom Franz 1,455
GocartMoz 1,441
Chuck Crowe 1,441
Ralph Blight 1,440
Kenneth Cade 1,429
Rick Norton 1,428
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,408
in2piano 1,404
Stan Simons 1,402
Fdemetrio 1,394
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,301
scottandrew 1,292
DakLander 1,265
PeteG 1,242
Ian Ferrin 1,230
Glen King 1,214
IdeaGuy 1,209
AaronAuthier 1,177
Diane Ewing 1,158
Gerry 1,144
summeoyo 1,126
joro 1,082
BobbyJoe 1,075
lane1777 1,070
Deej56 1,053
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
Tony A 1,016
argo 986
peaden 984
Wolvman 960
IronKnee 947
Jak Kelly 912
krtinberg 890
Drifter 886
Petra 883
9ne 882
90 dB 851
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 827
Juan 797
TKO 784
frahmes 781
teletwang 762
Andy K 744
tbryson 737
Andy Kemp 733
ant 732
Jackie444 731
3daveyO3 704
Dayson 703
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Katziis 652
quality 637
Irwin 627
CG King 622
douglas 621
Pat Hardy 614
Mel 614
NaomiSue 601
Moosesong 593
Shandy 589
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
qbaum 570
nitepiano 566
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
BonzaiWag 523
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 511
goodfolks 499
R&M 492
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
dmk 442
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
Rob L 426
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 399
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
Cecilee 379
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
java 374
spidey 371
Register Today!
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.

By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
#1155942 - 08/19/19 06:52 AM Copyright law  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,647
Everett Adams Offline
Top 40 Poster
Everett Adams  Offline
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,647
,NL Canada
I have a question on copyright law. I'm no expert but I thought when a song is published for public consumption that the title of the song and the writer's name and copyright owner's name had to appear somewhere on the lyric/music sheet or overhead and on any saleable item like CD etc. Am I wrong or right.?

#1155949 - 08/19/19 10:21 AM Re: Copyright law [Re: Everett Adams]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,279
Ray E. Strode Online content
Top 30 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Online Content
Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,279
Brunswick, Ga. USA
To be sure you need to go to the U.S. Copyright Web Site and read thru what is posted. It is a simple thing to put the Copyright Symbol on a lyric sheet and in other places. If someone is going to cover or record an original song they probably would already know who the copyright owner was. The nice thing about the U.S. Copyright Law, you don't have to be a citizen to register your songs.

Ray E. Strode
#1155950 - 08/19/19 10:28 AM Re: Copyright law [Re: Everett Adams]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 9,085
John Lawrence Schick Offline
Top 20 Poster
John Lawrence Schick  Offline
Top 20 Poster

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 9,085
The copyright symbol is no longer required. It's optional.

John smile

#1155951 - 08/19/19 04:19 PM Re: Copyright law [Re: Everett Adams]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,402
Gary E. Andrews Offline
Top 200 Poster
Gary E. Andrews  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,402
Portsmouth, Ohio, USA
This horse has a mouth: www.copyright.gov

Transitioning from Songwriting hobbyist, avocation, to Songwriting 'company', vocation, means it's time to study something about the commercial aspects of the 'biz'.

Copyright law is federal, so the .gov address can answer most of your questions and give you a place to study and know for yourself how the law works. I've even spoken with employees by phone to clarify obscure issues.

The more you know the more you can help your lawyer, if such need arises. Copyright law has nuances different from criminal or commercial law. Some lawyers specialize in each discipline, to the exclusion of others. Those specializing in Entertainment Law should know the nuances of that area. Almost any lawyer is better than none.

I recommend putting your copyright notice on any publication where you are giving 'access' to others. That term, 'access', is what you would have to prove in a federal courtroom to begin a complaint of 'infringement' on your 'intellectual property' (IP). How did the thief have access to steal your intellectual property?

Without formal document 'Registration' with the U. S. Register of Copyrights at the Library of Congress you cannot get on the docket in federal court, where federal copyright law is heard. Once you begin to 'do business', to engage contractually with someone to legally use your intellectual property...Let's capitalize "Intellectual Property"...they will want to know that you yourself have legal authority to control that property, to authorize by your signature their 'right' to 'copy' it and take it to market. If you don't, the deal comes to a screeching halt, until you do get the product Registered and can show them the document. Registration is effective the date the Registration application is received by the Register of Copyrights, but you may wait days, weeks, months for a document. I waited 84 days, once. With digitization they may be more electronically competent now to enable expediting your commercial need for documentation. I don't know. www.copyright.gov does know.

Even without formal Registration the notice that you claim your exclusive 'right' to 'copy' your intellectual property is a simple legal formality, giving those with access notice, that may prove invaluable in court, should infringement ever occur. We see daily how thieves with good lawyers get away with robbing people in numerous ways, so we know there are thieves afoot, at large, among us, watching for their opportunity. We buy gas caps that lock on our cars so we can keep the gas we paid for. We lock the doors of our cars and homes and garages and workplaces to keep the things we've bought, and our lives functioning in our bodies. Copyright claim is a 'lock' of sorts, even without the formal Registration that gives you two strong legs to stand on in court should anyone infringe on your right to copy your intellectual property.

It's easy. Why not do it? What advantage is there in NOT putting your copyright notice on your works, wherever you give 'access' to them? And, when things start happening on any given work, it's a good investment to go forward with Registration.

There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
#1155960 - 08/20/19 08:27 AM Re: Copyright law [Re: Everett Adams]  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,647
Everett Adams Offline
Top 40 Poster
Everett Adams  Offline
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,647
,NL Canada
The reason I ask is, of late, in church, I notice on the overhead where the lyrics are shown, there is no title, no notice of copyright, no CCLI number of the song. There use to be. I even emailed CCLI to ask if there had been any change in requirement to show this information. They said there had been no change in policy. I took that to mean if it was required before, it was still required. I had occasion to visit another church and they had that info showing on their overhead. I guess I am going to have to ask my pastor why they are breaking the law if there is still a law to show this. I just like to know the title of the song and also the writer of said song. That way I can search for it on the net if I want to for any reason.

#1156773 - 09/22/19 09:29 AM Re: Copyright law [Re: Everett Adams]  
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 6
Lilly Offline
Casual Observer
Lilly  Offline
Casual Observer

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 6
I was under the impression that as soon as you saved it on something like a computer it is copyrighted to you. I could be wrong though :-)

#1156775 - 09/22/19 10:25 AM Re: Copyright law [Re: Lilly]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,556
Martin Lide Online content
Top 200 Poster
Martin Lide  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,556
Houston, Texas
Originally Posted by Lilly
I was under the impression that as soon as you saved it on something like a computer it is copyrighted to you. I could be wrong though :-)

I believe...that per black letter law....that as soon as you create something in any form, its' copyright belongs to you.
But, as a practical matter, you have to be concerned with protecting it with proof that it is yours...which a registered copyright assists with.

Much intellectual property is easy to steal and very hard and expensive to protect. I have no personal experience in the "music business." Playing in bar bands doesn't count. , but from what I have read, to truly protect a musical composition, you need to be connected and the music needs to go from your head to your publisher to the recording and to public distribution...without anyone else knowing that it exists.

Human nature is what it is and Hunter Thompson was not just being rhetorical.

#1156810 - 09/23/19 08:04 AM Re: Copyright law [Re: Everett Adams]  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,647
Everett Adams Offline
Top 40 Poster
Everett Adams  Offline
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,647
,NL Canada
I read one time about a songwriter who wrote a song that day and performed it that night at an open mic and made the announcement that he just wrote it. The next day he went to register it and found out someone had already registered it in their name. I don't know if this ever happened but it shows it is possible. So make sure it is protected some how before displaying it publicly.

#1157381 - 10/06/19 12:54 PM Re: Copyright law [Re: Everett Adams]  
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,350
Dave Rice Online content
Top 30 Poster
Dave Rice  Online Content
Top 30 Poster

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,350
Copyright law in the United States has become a moving target intended to reward the rich and powerful and penalize the many, less than wealthy... talented songwriters who struggle at the bottom of the pyramid. I took the trouble to formally copyright more than half my catalog and then registered nearly half with ASCAP. Was it worth it? No! Please don't think this "rant" is a condemnation of the rich and powerful. I aspire to reach that "peak" myself... but not at the expense of my fellow songwriters and artists.

The cost is too high, the process takes too long and if you don't possess the resources to promote a song... it will drown in the pool of time... or be stolen from you by an outfit claiming the right to use your song for covers... using your original work. This was never the intention of the mandatory cover privilege provision of copyright law. The music world is full of crooks and charlatans, hiding around every corner. Caveat emptor!

#1157449 - 10/08/19 06:33 AM Re: Copyright law [Re: Everett Adams]  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,647
Everett Adams Offline
Top 40 Poster
Everett Adams  Offline
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,647
,NL Canada
Thanks Dave. I find that the same greed that is found in secular music is alive and well In Gospel music. The almighty dollar is the driving force there too. I could expand on that but I wont.

#1157453 - 10/08/19 09:56 AM Re: Copyright law [Re: Everett Adams]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,086
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 50 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,086
Nashville, Tn.

Copyright law is one of those gray areas that most people think they know about yet very few actually do. I can't answer your questions about Canada, and particularly in the church, but I can hazzard a guess. Many songs in church hymnals, are actually old old songs, that were passed down from generation to generation and actually have no single source as a writer. Along the way their might be one accepted version and possibly someone gets the credit, but there is not really any particular writer.

We recently had an 8 part documentary called "THE HISTORY OF COUNTRY MUSIC" that chronicles the art form from the beginning in the 20's. People like AP Carter and the Carter family, would gather old folk melodys and lyrics and when they were actually recorded were given credit for that particular version. An example would be "WILDWOOD FLOWER" which was a hundreds year old song but Mother Maybelle Carter is given credit for the first "real recording" and therefore now is credited with the song.
A very famous recording is "American Folk Trilogy" recorded and a huge song for Elvis Presley. And is given credit to writer Micky Newbury for writing it. But he didn't write any of it. It was "ALL MY TRIALS, BATTLE HYMN OF THE REPUBLIC, AND DIXIE" which are all old folk songs credited to other people. Yet Micky had a reputation and was paid for those songs.

Churches are the oldest receptical for many old melodies and words and have probably been added to by dozens of people over the centuries. Our own National Anthem was written from a 17th Century drinking song. Another aspect was that long before copyright laws, it was accepted practice to take an old song and add your own lyrics to it. In the country music series, there was one particularly melody, "Wasn't God who made Honky Tonk Angels" Which has been a hit on at least three different songs in about 75 years. The same melody keeps popping up.

In today's digital world with most artists simply sounding like other artists and the songs can actually be laid over each other and be the same thing. I don't know how most copyright laws can be remotely enforced.

So I don't know if that is the reason for your question but I would bet it lays in there some where. Look and see if it has a "Traditional" note on the writer line. If if does, that is where it is, and the fact that most songs in hymnals are PUBLIC DOMAIN so they don't have to pay liscencing fees, might have something to do with it.


#1157526 - 10/09/19 09:23 AM Re: Copyright law [Re: Everett Adams]  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,647
Everett Adams Offline
Top 40 Poster
Everett Adams  Offline
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,647
,NL Canada
Most churches rarely use the hymnbooks any more or those old songs, even though many of them are much better than some new songs that churches use today, especially some that appear to be written by songwriters just learning the craft. Up to a couple of years ago, the names of the writers and the song titles would appear on the lyrics on the overhead, plus the license number of CCLI identifying the song. Today nothing appears but the lyrics, not even the song title. I asked my pastor about it and he said they had renewed and upgraded their software and equipment and those items no longer appear on the files that they received. I questioned CCLI if there was any change in policy about showing this information and they said there was no change in policy. I told my church they better check it out because breaking copyright law is serious business. CCLI was started so churches could use copyright material by paying a fee to CCLI which paid the owner of the material they were using. Churches got sued years ago for the fact they were using material and copying sheet music and not paying for it. I don't want my church to get into trouble, and neither do I want to see them break the law, so I told them. I will question them again later to see if they checked into it.

#1157534 - 10/09/19 11:03 AM Re: Copyright law [Re: Everett Adams]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,086
Marc Barnette Offline
Top 50 Poster
Marc Barnette  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,086
Nashville, Tn.
Well, I cant tell you then. My experience with Hymnals was as I related it. But here is something to keep in mind. ASCAP, BMI and SESAC here in the states are on a suing spree on venues that don't pay licencing fees. Many have been reported to ASCAP and BMI in hopes to get their payments up, only to find that these venues, which are mostly very small places, QUIT having live music at all due to one more expense they can't afford. So songwriters cut their noses off to spite their face. And they don'\t get paid from ASCAP, BMI or from the gig. It's just gone.

I'd be willing to bet that churches are the LAST place a Government wants to sue because of very bad publicity. But you may be looking at an oncoming thing where writers are no longer going to be paid in the future and possibly those songs and lack of being mentioned in the titles, could be a "canary in the coal mine" of what is coming.


Last edited by Marc Barnette; 10/09/19 11:04 AM.
#1157545 - 10/09/19 01:05 PM Re: Copyright law [Re: Everett Adams]  
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 851
90 dB Offline
Top 500 Poster
90 dB  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 851
But music should all be, like...... free, right? cool



Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.

Join Just Plain Folks
to receive the free
JPNotes Newsletter!
*this is separate from
message board registration*

Newest Members
jane_song, NancyHuebner, Gareth_Glakin, PaulCanuck, MikeNez
21228 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Average Posts Daily45
Most Online1,589
Oct 4th, 2019
Just Plain Quotes
"I'd rather starve than eat poison food" -Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
Andrea Fox (40), Michael LeBlanc (63)
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0