Who's Online Now
25 registered members (Dave Rice, Andy K, couchgrouch, Dayson, AntonyRobWells, Everett Adams, 9ne, CTthomas, Gary E. Andrews, 3 invisible), and 1,658 guests, and
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Shout Box
Member Spotlight
PeteG
PeteG
Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,242
Joined: November 2007
Show All Member Profiles 
What's Going On
Affordable High Quality Music Production
by LarryMagee. 12/08/19 06:37 PM
Any suggestions
by Dave Rice. 12/08/19 04:24 PM
Runaway Train
by Dave Rice. 12/08/19 04:17 PM
Loss
by lane1777. 12/08/19 01:15 PM
ANYONE CARE FOR A DRINK WITH ME
by lane1777. 12/08/19 01:04 PM
"Over The River Tonight" Copyright 1979
by Gary E. Andrews. 12/08/19 10:25 AM
Has anyone worked with EastCraft Recording?
by Dave Rice. 12/08/19 09:12 AM
The Bunkhouse, Bulls Gap, TN.
by Gary E. Andrews. 12/08/19 12:59 AM
The Lost Church, Dec. 8, 2019, 4 PM.
by Gary E. Andrews. 12/08/19 12:58 AM
Your Underrated Songwriters
by Fdemetrio. 12/07/19 02:27 PM
"Early Morning Blues."
by MFB III. 12/07/19 12:46 PM
Nashville Don't do Country Anymore
by John W Selleck. 12/07/19 04:59 AM
Soldiers Field now musicated. Travis and Vic
by Travis david. 12/07/19 04:22 AM
FREE Demo for Christmas - ENDS in 6 DAYS
by Roy Cooper. 12/07/19 02:21 AM
Wallflower
by John W Selleck. 12/06/19 10:48 PM
Still getting over you
by the_lyricwriter. 12/06/19 08:42 PM
Still Getting over you
by the_lyricwriter. 12/06/19 08:40 PM
America I Know We’re Strong
by CTthomas. 12/06/19 06:44 PM
America I Know We’re Strong
by CTthomas. 12/06/19 11:23 AM
I remember
by CTthomas. 12/06/19 10:53 AM
Right Under Your Nose
by beechnut79. 12/06/19 10:51 AM
The Accidental Hero
by beechnut79. 12/06/19 10:47 AM
THE LOST CHAD SONG
by Ray E. Strode. 12/06/19 10:42 AM
Mexico
by MFB III. 12/06/19 12:44 AM
"The Gangster Trap."-by-J.A. Prod.Beat & Me!
by MFB III. 12/06/19 12:41 AM
All you get is me
by JAPOV. 12/05/19 11:35 PM
"If The Stars Can't Wait!.
by MFB III. 12/05/19 10:23 PM
Rising from the Dead (Updated)
by Deej56. 12/05/19 09:46 PM
December 1, 2019 Columbus, Ohio
by Gary E. Andrews. 12/05/19 09:36 PM
Uphill Both Ways
by John W Selleck. 12/05/19 08:43 PM
Top Posters(All Time)
Calvin 19,789
Travis david 11,640
Kevin Emmrich 10,568
Jean Bullock 10,330
Kaley Willow 10,240
Two Singers 9,600
Joice Marie 9,186
Mackie H. 8,844
glynda 8,613
Mike Dunbar 8,574
Tricia Baker 8,318
Colin Ward 7,907
couchgrouch 7,622
Dave Rice 7,414
Corey 7,357
Wyman Lloyd 6,578
Mark Kaufman 6,561
Joe Wrabek 6,403
Vicarn 6,184
ben willis 6,106
Lynn Orloff 5,788
Louis 5,725
Linda Sings 5,608
niteshift 5,519
KimberlyinNC 5,210
Neil Cotton 4,909
Derek Hines 4,893
DonnaMarilyn 4,652
Blake Hill 4,528
Bob Cushing 4,363
Bill Osofsky 4,199
Tom Shea 4,179
Cindy Miller 4,178
Roy Cooper 4,166
nightengale 4,092
TamsNumber4 4,075
MFB III 3,865
Caroline 3,865
Kolstad 3,813
Dan Sullivan 3,710
beechnut79 3,523
Dottie 3,427
E Swartz 3,420
joewatt 3,411
Bill Cooper 3,279
John Hoffman 3,199
Skip Johnson 3,027
Pam Hurley 3,007
Terry G 3,005
PopTodd 2,890
Harriet Ames 2,870
Nigel Quin 2,812
MidniteBob 2,707
Nelson 2,581
Tom Tracy 2,558
Polly Hager 2,526
Jerry Jakala 2,524
Al Alvarez 2,499
Eric Thome 2,448
Hummingbird 2,401
Stan Loh 2,263
Sam Wilson 2,242
Judy Hollier 2,232
Wendy D 2,218
Erica Ellis 2,202
TrumanCoyote 2,096
Marty Helly 2,022
DukeWill 1,987
floyd jane 1,982
maccharles 1,961
Clint Anglin 1,904
cindyrella 1,888
David Wright 1,866
Clairejeanne 1,851
Cindy LaRosa 1,824
Ronald Boyt 1,675
Iggy 1,650
Noel Downs 1,620
Martin Lide 1,604
Rick Heenan 1,597
Cal 1,574
Jack Swain 1,554
Pete Larsen 1,537
Fdemetrio 1,531
Ann Tygart 1,529
Tom Breshers 1,487
RogerS 1,462
Tom Franz 1,455
GocartMoz 1,441
Chuck Crowe 1,441
Ralph Blight 1,440
Kenneth Cade 1,429
Rick Norton 1,428
bholt 1,411
Letha Allen 1,408
in2piano 1,404
Stan Simons 1,402
mattbanx 1,384
Jen Shaner 1,373
Charlie Wong 1,347
KevinP 1,324
Vondelle 1,316
Tom W. 1,313
Jan Petter 1,301
scottandrew 1,292
DakLander 1,265
PeteG 1,242
Ian Ferrin 1,230
Glen King 1,214
IdeaGuy 1,209
AaronAuthier 1,177
Diane Ewing 1,158
Gerry 1,144
summeoyo 1,126
lane1777 1,121
Deej56 1,095
joro 1,082
BobbyJoe 1,075
S.DEE 1,040
yann 1,037
Tony A 1,016
argo 986
peaden 984
Wolvman 960
IronKnee 947
Jak Kelly 912
krtinberg 890
9ne 887
Drifter 886
Petra 883
90 dB 870
RJC 845
Brenda152 840
Nadia 829
Juan 797
TKO 784
frahmes 781
teletwang 762
Andy K 744
tbryson 737
Andy Kemp 733
ant 732
Jackie444 731
3daveyO3 704
Dayson 703
Dixie 701
Joy Boy 695
Knute 686
Lee Arten 678
Katziis 652
R.T.MOORE 638
quality 637
Irwin 630
CG King 622
Pat Hardy 621
douglas 621
Mel 614
Moosesong 604
NaomiSue 601
Shandy 589
Ria 587
TAMERA64 583
qbaum 570
nitepiano 566
pRISCILLA 556
Tink2 553
musica 539
deanbell 528
RobertK 527
BonzaiWag 523
Roderic 522
BB Wilbur 511
goodfolks 499
R&M 493
Zeek 487
Stu 486
Steve P. 481
JAPOV 470
KathyW 462
allenb 459
MaxG 458
Philjo 454
fanito 448
trush48 448
dmk 442
arealrush 437
DGR 436
avweek 435
Stephen D 433
Emmy 431
Rob L 426
marquez 422
kit 419
Softkrome 417
kyrksongs 415
RRon 408
Laura G. 407
VNORTH 407
Debra 407
eb 406
cuebald 399
EdPerrone 399
Dannyk1 395
Hobart 395
Davyboy49 393
Smile 389
GJShades 387
Ezt 384
tone 380
Marla 380
Cecilee 379
iggyiggy 378
coalminer 377
java 374
spidey 371
Register Today!
Welcome to the Just Plain Folks forums! You are currently viewing our forums as a Guest which gives you limited access to most of our discussions and to other features.

By joining our free community you will have access to post and respond to topics, communicate privately with our users (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other features. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free; so please join our community today!
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
#1155403 - 07/19/19 04:37 AM Re: I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves [Re: Kristi McKeever]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,089
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,089
California
Originally Posted by Kristi McKeever
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
There's probably at least three ways a (first person singular) song and singer can be heard:

1) singing as himself or herself

2) singing as a specific "someone else" or as a specific "character"

3) singing as an "audience surrogate"


I think so too. And fdemetrio's statement that "I" seems to be a powerful tense to use in writing lyrics. Most of my lyrics are written in 1st person, but I would have traveled the world if they were all my experience!! As a listener, I probably assume a singer is singing something they "believe in" but not necessarily their own experience.

But I would be wrong in the case of Tina Turner and I’m sure many other singers. I believe it’s true that she hated “What’s Love Got to Do With It” but you’d never know that watching her perform it. wink


Hi Kristi,

Nice take! I didn't know about Turner's dislike for that song (which I love)..

I got so caught up in the mechanics of "how many ways are there to hear a first person singular song and singer" that I forgot why I brought it up in the first place, which is that it's easy to get it wrong.

In fact, I think it's fair to say that to the degree that a listener understands an artist is to that degree he/she will get it right.

I mean, if you know a particular folk singer is usually talking about his/her real experience, there's no reason to think otherwise when they perform something new. In fact, such singer-songwriters reserve obviously very tall stories to be their particular works of fiction, just so not to confuse their audience. "Authenticity" seems more important to some brands of music sung in the first person than others.

And this is now getting into thesis territory with those three ways a singer can be heard:

In any given song, the singer can represent all three kinds of first person singular simultaneously
. Imagine a DOT inside an equilateral triangle.

This is why, as you say, "a singer is singing something they "believe in" but not necessarily their own experience." Most first person songs have some things culled from real life, some from fiction, and some things that give voice to what a listener is feeling and might say--an audience surrogate..All three will be present in various amounts in most popular music lyrics.

A friend of mine saw an audience en masse get it wrong--he saw Randy Newman in Nashville in the Eighties at a smallish venue, and he performed his song "Rednecks" in which he is singing as a specific character, a bigot, singing the lines,

We're rednecks, we're rednecks
We don't know our ass from a hole in the ground
We're rednecks, we're rednecks
We're keeping the ni**ers down

My friend recounts how the audience sang along to this part..very enthusiastically.. and that always disturbed my friend and myself cuz if there's one Randy Newman song where you want to quietly listen and watch Newman wearing a mask and not be "identifying" with him, it's "Rednecks" --and okay, maybe "Short People" lol..

And Scott* (my friend) also made sure I understood it did not appear that this small beer drinking crowd of folks were "singing ironically" along with him

So in hindsight it seems like Mr. Newman was taken by the audience as a surrogate, at least by most, others just getting caught up in the moment, but most were seemingly channeling their bigotry through his singing, fleshy avatar. Very disturbing.

Randy Newman songs generally got visceral reactions from folks. I'm surprised no one's mentioned "Short People" --but surprised in a good way, cuz I like Newman. He's a really socially conscious dude who never soap boxes, but in many songs, becomes flawed characters for us to take in.

Mike


* Scott Phelps was the Assistant Manager and friend at Tower in Nashville whom I worked with from 1993-1996. A songwriter with a little chart success. MAB and he may have even crossed paths in song circles.


Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 07/20/19 12:51 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1155410 - 07/19/19 09:13 AM Re: I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,311
Ray E. Strode Online content
Top 30 Poster
Ray E. Strode  Online Content
Top 30 Poster

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 7,311
Brunswick, Ga. USA
Well, Lessee here. George Morgan had a huge hit CANDY KISSES. He said if you have a huge hit, you better like it because you are going to be singing it the rest of your life. Yes, I suppose some Artists had big hits they hated.


Ray E. Strode
#1155421 - 07/19/19 01:32 PM Re: I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,531
Fdemetrio Offline
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,531
Yeah, I dont think Johnny Cash "shot a man in Reno Just to watch him die"

I think Rod is using inhibitions wrong, but its still understood that he means dont be inhibited...lol

I think Rod has one of the best voices in all of rock music.

Back to the topic, I think when its a sensitive issue using I can get hairy, but alot of the REAL writers use it.

I think it humanizes the person in the song, even if they are a piece of chit.

Bruce's Nebraska was an entire album really of fooked up people who he was giving voice to. I think what he was trying to say was that when the country doesnt take care of its people they end up on the fringe, and do things like many of the characters in Nebraska did. So if you sing "I" yeah somebody might think you are saying YOU are the chainsaw murderer, but it's understood by most he's simply humanizing some people who dont deserve to be humanized.

I Know sting was a teacher once, and im not sure if HE was the one telling the school girl to "dont stand so close to me" but maybe he used his own experience to create the character.

I think most songs, at least my own come from many of my own experiences and others, and i sing "I" because i indentify with those other views. So in some sense its a co-write....lol

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/19/19 01:39 PM.
#1155424 - 07/19/19 02:11 PM Re: I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves [Re: Fdemetrio]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,089
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,089
California
"I think when its a sensitive issue using "I" can get hairy"

I wholeheartedly agree. smile

"Nebraska" is my second favorite Bruce album. ("Born To Run") my all time favorite..

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 07/19/19 02:11 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1155425 - 07/19/19 02:15 PM Re: I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,531
Fdemetrio Offline
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,531
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
"I think when its a sensitive issue using "I" can get hairy"

I wholeheartedly agree. smile

"Nebraska" is my second favorite Bruce album. ("Born To Run") my all time favorite..


Yeah even the crumudgeon Randy Newman called it NEAR perfect, he wouldnt go all the way and call it perfect though....

I read where he also commented on Pete Townshend as a writer. Citing My Generation, the character in the song is a MOD, a social group, and they usually do Speed and they cant talk right. Hence thats why daltry stutters throughout.

And Newman said, the guy is trying to be a voice for his generation and he cant even speak!....and said "great writing"

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/19/19 02:16 PM.
#1155441 - 07/20/19 08:21 AM Re: I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,828
Kristi McKeever Offline
Top 100 Poster
Kristi McKeever  Offline
Top 100 Poster

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,828
USA
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
So in hindsight it seems like Mr. Newman was taken by the audience as a surrogate, at least by most, others just getting caught up in the moment, but most were seemingly channeling their bigotry through his singing, fleshy avatar. Very disturbing.

Randy Newman songs generally got visceral reactions from folks. I'm surprised no one's mentioned "Short People" --but surprised in a good way, cuz I like Newman. He's a really socially conscious dude who never soap boxes, but in many songs, becomes flawed characters for us to take in.

Mike


Mike,

Funny....“Short People” did come to my mind, but it’s an all-in-good-fun kind of song to watch him perform, imo. Amazing about that “Rednecks” performance. So then there’s “We Are the Champions”....kind of the flip side to that!

Using “I” can be tricky as has already been mentioned. I interpret Sting’s “Every Breath You Take” as an aggressive, threatening song....who would want to sing that, ya know? But that's just me. smile

I don’t know how many times I’ve heard: don’t write a song that makes the singer look bad. What is "bad"? Fine line, sometimes. Fine line...


A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write,
if he is to be ultimately at peace with himself. What a man can be,
he must be. -- Abraham Maslow, American Psychologist
#1155452 - 07/20/19 01:08 PM Re: I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves [Re: Kristi McKeever]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,089
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,089
California
Originally Posted by Kristi McKeever
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
So in hindsight it seems like Mr. Newman was taken by the audience as a surrogate, at least by most, others just getting caught up in the moment, but most were seemingly channeling their bigotry through his singing, fleshy avatar. Very disturbing.

Randy Newman songs generally got visceral reactions from folks. I'm surprised no one's mentioned "Short People" --but surprised in a good way, cuz I like Newman. He's a really socially conscious dude who never soap boxes, but in many songs, becomes flawed characters for us to take in.

Mike


Mike,

Funny....“Short People” did come to my mind, but it’s an all-in-good-fun kind of song to watch him perform, imo. Amazing about that “Rednecks” performance. So then there’s “We Are the Champions”....kind of the flip side to that!

Using “I” can be tricky as has already been mentioned. I interpret Sting’s “Every Breath You Take” as an aggressive, threatening song....who would want to sing that, ya know? But that's just me. smile

I don’t know how many times I’ve heard: don’t write a song that makes the singer look bad. What is "bad"? Fine line, sometimes. Fine line...



I am discovering I'm fascinated by this mercurial triangulation of the "first person" in popular songs. In any given song, from line to line, just exactly who the " I " represents isn't necessarily static but may be changing between the three ways of taking in the singer (singing a song in the first person).

So much work is going on under the surface while listening,--just utterly fascinating stuff that one could devote a lifetime of study. But it's something we just naturally do, as listeners, we sort all that out, sometimes getting it wrong (but it's amazing we get it right as much as we do, given the complexity of what's going on) and this probably plays a BIG part in if and how we enjoy or dislike a particular song.

I mean, I might be enjoying a song where the singer is playing a character, but if a question comes up for me in the listening, if that character becomes my surrogate and answers that question, I imagine I'm more likely to enjoy the song. Same thing if it's truthful stuff mixed in with more fanciful. If "Fire and Rain" was totally made up stuff, it would devalue the song for me. I always imagine that for James Taylor to talk like that, he experienced something bad happen to a friend, possibly their death, though I never took every line to be verbatim his life story..

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 07/20/19 01:18 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1155453 - 07/20/19 02:09 PM Re: I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,531
Fdemetrio Offline
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,531
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Originally Posted by Kristi McKeever
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
So in hindsight it seems like Mr. Newman was taken by the audience as a surrogate, at least by most, others just getting caught up in the moment, but most were seemingly channeling their bigotry through his singing, fleshy avatar. Very disturbing.

Randy Newman songs generally got visceral reactions from folks. I'm surprised no one's mentioned "Short People" --but surprised in a good way, cuz I like Newman. He's a really socially conscious dude who never soap boxes, but in many songs, becomes flawed characters for us to take in.

Mike


Mike,

Funny....“Short People” did come to my mind, but it’s an all-in-good-fun kind of song to watch him perform, imo. Amazing about that “Rednecks” performance. So then there’s “We Are the Champions”....kind of the flip side to that!

Using “I” can be tricky as has already been mentioned. I interpret Sting’s “Every Breath You Take” as an aggressive, threatening song....who would want to sing that, ya know? But that's just me. smile

I don’t know how many times I’ve heard: don’t write a song that makes the singer look bad. What is "bad"? Fine line, sometimes. Fine line...



I am discovering I'm fascinated by this mercurial triangulation of the "first person" in popular songs. In any given song, from line to line, just exactly who the " I " represents isn't necessarily static but may be changing between the three ways of taking in the singer (singing a song in the first person).

So much work is going on under the surface while listening,--just utterly fascinating stuff that one could devote a lifetime of study. But it's something we just naturally do, as listeners, we sort all that out, sometimes getting it wrong (but it's amazing we get it right as much as we do, given the complexity of what's going on) and this probably plays a BIG part in if and how we enjoy or dislike a particular song.

I mean, I might be enjoying a song where the singer is playing a character, but if a question comes up for me in the listening, if that character becomes my surrogate and answers that question, I imagine I'm more likely to enjoy the song. Same thing if it's truthful stuff mixed in with more fanciful. If "Fire and Rain" was totally made up stuff, it would devalue the song for me. I always imagine that for James Taylor to talk like that, he experienced something bad happen to a friend, possibly their death, though I never took every line to be verbatim his life story..

Mike


It is fascinating and I think there's an art to using the tenses right. BTW, JT wrote fire and rain while institutionalized in a mental hospital, or at least part of it there.

How bout the eavsedropping style of say Mark Knopfler in "Money for Nothin"
He said he overheard some guys who were working in an appliance store, and how they were complaining about having to do all that work, while the "Chimpanzees, banging on them bongos, get their money for nothing...and chicks for free" they were watching MTV on the tvs while they worked

And the ironic part is Knopfler is playing the role of those appliance workers, but HE himself is the very thing they were complaining about. He said he hid in the corner cause he didnt want them to stop their rant.

To me songwriting brings people alive. Various ways to do it, we can learn those tools too.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/20/19 02:26 PM.
#1155944 - 08/19/19 07:21 AM Re: I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves [Re: JAPOV]  
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 237
Cheyenne Offline
Serious Contributor
Cheyenne  Offline
Serious Contributor

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 237
Florida U.S.A.

"TROLL"...... Self edifying, self promoting, self proclaimed industry professional, self credentialed "teacher of the songwriting craft ", and salesman to be specific Cheyenne. Speaking of negativity.....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re your comment -above ------J A P O V , You are typical of wannabe music writers who
shout TROLL , because someone disagrees with your opinions

You have been on here for five minutes following the demise of both Songwriter 101 and
Songwriter Junction; and already you are rubbing many long term members up the wrong way

Some of us have had a fair few many years working both as touring Musicians and Management
and we are sorry if that gets up your nose so speak

All you have to do is mark me down as ( ignore this member) precisely what I shall do to yourself

YOUR COMMENTS about myself are complete nonsense.

J A P O V S would be more appropriate ( Just Another Piece Of Venomous Scum)


One of the most important principles of songwriting is to remember that a good song is a partnership of many different components, all working together to produce a satisfying musical experience.

In that respect, song components are either enhancing or compromising their combined effects.
#1155953 - 08/19/19 03:43 PM Re: I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves [Re: Cheyenne]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,531
Fdemetrio Offline
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,531
Originally Posted by Cheyenne

"TROLL"...... Self edifying, self promoting, self proclaimed industry professional, self credentialed "teacher of the songwriting craft ", and salesman to be specific Cheyenne. Speaking of negativity.....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re your comment -above ------J A P O V , You are typical of wannabe music writers who
shout TROLL , because someone disagrees with your opinions

You have been on here for five minutes following the demise of both Songwriter 101 and
Songwriter Junction; and already you are rubbing many long term members up the wrong way

Some of us have had a fair few many years working both as touring Musicians and Management
and we are sorry if that gets up your nose so speak

All you have to do is mark me down as ( ignore this member) precisely what I shall do to yourself

YOUR COMMENTS about myself are complete nonsense.

J A P O V S would be more appropriate ( Just Another Piece Of Venomous Scum)


Cheyenne, ive had some decent conversations with you, and other times you pull a 360 and blast away.

In all seriousness, you may be a very good songwriter, and have a wealth of information about songwriting. But I havent seen or heard one piece of work from you. You've attacked a few people in this thread and cut down their abilities.

Not sure what causes your highs and lows.

#1155956 - 08/20/19 02:26 AM Re: I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 470
JAPOV Online happy
Top 500 Poster
JAPOV  Online Happy
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 470
"Just Another Piece Of Venomous Scum"............ Lol, Cheyenne, that’s only funny because I know that you know the troll that I’m refusing to name. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and entitled to their own tastes... In fact, anyone who knows me well knows that I appreciate and encourage the exercise of individuality. However, there’s a huge difference between having an opinion... and purposefully writing page after page of long winded arguments about how screwed up the music industry is and what everyone else is doing wrong in order to promote himself as some sort of "authority in the business of songwriting". The truth is, if he was even half of what he promotes himself to be, everyone would already know him and he wouldn’t be wasting his time here on songwriter blogs with the rest of us.... Take a breath Cheyenne, you and I both are already just a couple of "opinions in cyberspace" lol..... smile

#1155977 - 08/20/19 04:41 PM Re: I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,531
Fdemetrio Offline
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,531
It's funny how these conversations tend to come full circle and have cross links...

Like my Somewhere over the rainbow comment.

I came across Clapton doin a blues version of it and really dug it, and its funny cause Clapton has been mentioned in some of our threads too lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwlFTYT2Fdw

BTW hard to find a better band than that, Steve Gadd on drums and David Sancious(Of E Street fame) on Organ, Billy Preston the fifth Beatle!

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 08/20/19 04:47 PM.
#1155978 - 08/20/19 04:59 PM Re: I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 470
JAPOV Online happy
Top 500 Poster
JAPOV  Online Happy
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 470
Oh yea! Gotta' love Clapton! smile

#1155979 - 08/20/19 05:09 PM Re: I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 470
JAPOV Online happy
Top 500 Poster
JAPOV  Online Happy
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 470
Shania Twain's "Man, I feel like a woman"..........
Firstly, that’s not country!
Secondly...and most importantly... I can’t sing along with that song and not feel like a woman! smile

Last edited by JAPOV; 08/20/19 05:09 PM.
#1155989 - 08/21/19 06:07 AM Re: I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves [Re: JAPOV]  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,673
Everett Adams Online content
Top 40 Poster
Everett Adams  Online Content
Top 40 Poster

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 6,673
,NL Canada
Originally Posted by JAPOV
Shania Twain's "Man, I feel like a woman"..........
Firstly, that’s not country!
Secondly...and most importantly... I can’t sing along with that song and not feel like a woman! smile


In this day and age you could be a woman with a lot of drugs and a few surgeries. LOL

#1156000 - 08/21/19 01:53 PM Re: I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 470
JAPOV Online happy
Top 500 Poster
JAPOV  Online Happy
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 470
Ha! Lol.... I'm just not that hard core smile

#1156300 - 09/03/19 11:26 PM Re: "I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,462
Gary E. Andrews Online content
Top 200 Poster
Gary E. Andrews  Online Content
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,462
Portsmouth, Ohio, USA
Every time I read the Line, "I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves", it makes me think it has potential to be a Song.
A germ of perception in what it could mean to a Singer-Character is forming. Since it always has to be about boy-meets-girl for me that's the motive for him to hate the Song. Boy-loses-girl.
In the end boy must get girl back, for me, and there's the trouble. What is the story that has such profound effect on him that gets resolved in three Verses and a Chorus (Or 2 and a Bridge). The Chorus has to work before and after resolution. Does he get that one back or simply come out strong and moving on? Funny how it's working in my brain.

Last edited by Gary E. Andrews; 09/04/19 07:42 AM.

There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
#1156331 - 09/07/19 07:03 AM Re: "I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,126
summeoyo Offline
Top 500 Poster
summeoyo  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,126
Harrisburg, PA, USA
BAD GUY by Billie Eilish and Justin Bieber

It's the most popular song right now. I wonder if institutions like Berklee College of Music would dissect this song and use it as an example of how to write a hit song. Maybe we should post it here and do our own evaluation?

Summeoyo

#1156335 - 09/07/19 12:49 PM Re: "I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves" [Re: summeoyo]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,531
Fdemetrio Offline
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,531
Originally Posted by summeoyo
BAD GUY by Billie Eilish and Justin Bieber

It's the most popular song right now. I wonder if institutions like Berklee College of Music would dissect this song and use it as an example of how to write a hit song. Maybe we should post it here and do our own evaluation?

Summeoyo


They probably WOULD, if the goal was to have a hit. Cause it is a hit, lame as it may be to us.




Last edited by Fdemetrio; 09/07/19 01:03 PM.
#1156337 - 09/07/19 04:09 PM Re: "I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,126
summeoyo Offline
Top 500 Poster
summeoyo  Offline
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,126
Harrisburg, PA, USA
Do the reasons it's a hit have anything to do with actual songwriting skill? Duh......

#1156341 - 09/07/19 05:26 PM Re: "I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 470
JAPOV Online happy
Top 500 Poster
JAPOV  Online Happy
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 470
Who is Billie Eilish and Justin Bieber?

#1156358 - 09/09/19 09:54 AM Re: "I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves" [Re: summeoyo]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,531
Fdemetrio Offline
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,531
Originally Posted by summeoyo
Do the reasons it's a hit have anything to do with actual songwriting skill? Duh......


Yeah it does.

Hits are made up of hooks, lyrical/melodic/musical, songwriting skill is needed to create great hooks.

#1156359 - 09/09/19 10:08 AM Re: "I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,531
Fdemetrio Offline
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,531
Here's an example of what they teach at Berklee. None of this is songwriting skill, it's all about the THEORY of writing a hit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr9oSTR43VQ

#1156368 - 09/10/19 01:05 AM Re: "I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 470
JAPOV Online happy
Top 500 Poster
JAPOV  Online Happy
Top 500 Poster

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 470
I would have to disagree, he spoke a lot about song structure in that short video...... Not that it matters to me lol smile

#1156372 - 09/10/19 09:39 AM Re: "I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves" [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,531
Fdemetrio Offline
Top 200 Poster
Fdemetrio  Offline
Top 200 Poster

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,531
Song structure is part of songwriting theory.

I dont think its beneath Berklee at all, to use Biebers song for study. If I wanted to teach somebody what a great song is, id probably pull out the Beatles songbook. If I wanted to teach somebody how to have a hit and make money in todays dire music scene, i might tell them to listen to that, and other hits of today. Obviously millions of people like what they hear.

Different skills for sure, its all about the hook and rhythm today, but not just anybody can have a hit today. You need more than skill and a great song, or great hook, you need a chitload of luck and exposure too. But then again, it's always been that way

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 09/10/19 10:08 AM.
#1157679 - 10/12/19 10:42 AM Re: I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,418
John Voorpostel Offline
Top 20 Poster
John Voorpostel  Offline
Top 20 Poster

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 10,418
Peter Sarstead's Where Do You Go To My Lovely definitely made it across the pond Michael....leastwise last I checked Canada was on this side smile

I liked it 3\4 time, a simple round (C Em F G with a bass walkdown will get you there) with a simple story about 2 kids growing up in the slums....one making it at the possible price of her soul...

But then that is the thesis here smile



Reaching back, how about The Archies and Sugar Sugar? An absolute monster summer hit years back that really had inane lyrics. It's heavy rotation pounded it into me as a young teen. Sad when the best lines are "yeah yeah yeah" wink



Sugar, ah honey honey
You are my candy girl
And you got me wanting you
Honey, ah sugar sugar
You are my candy girl
And you've got me wanting you

I just can't believe the loveliness of loving you
(I just can't believe it's true)
I just can't believe the one to love this feeling to
(I just can't believe it's true)
Ah sugar, ah honey honey
You are my candy girl
And you've got me wanting you
Ah honey, ah sugar sugar
You are my candy girl
And you've got me wanting you

When I kissed you, girl, I knew how sweet a kiss could be
(I know how sweet a kiss can be)
Like the summer sunshine pour your sweetness over me
(Pour your sweetness over me)

Oh sugar, pour a little sugar on it honey
Pour a little sugar on it baby
I'm gonna make your life so sweet, yeah yeah yeah
Pour a little sugar on it oh yeah
Pour a little sugar on it honey
Pour a little sugar on it baby
I'm gonna make your life so sweet, yeah yeah yeah
Pour a little sugar on it honey

Ah sugar, ah honey honey
You are my candy girl
And you've got me wanting you
Oh honey, honey, sugar sugar
(Honey, honey, sugar sugar)
You are my candy girl





If writing ever becomes work I think I'm going to have to stop

iAccountant --- Info L inc --- Taxboard
#1157680 - 10/12/19 11:24 AM Re: I Hate A Song That Everybody Loves [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,089
Michael Zaneski Offline
Top 50 Poster
Michael Zaneski  Offline
Top 50 Poster

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,089
California
John,

I apologize for not even taking Canada into consideration when I made that statement! Of course Canada (and Mexico) are over the pond as well. smile

Sugar, Sugar is a closet "like" for me as is most bubblegum, cuz that's when I started listening to radio (in '70 actually, not '69) and so even though it's pure fluff, it at least recognizes itself as such cuz as it calls itself the thing that a company called Bazooka usta sell.

I see, your "Sugar. Sugar" and RAISE you one MacArthur Park. Hits by both Donna Summer and Richard Harris. Sugar, Sugar was popular with teens and pre-teens, and it's easy to understand as it's pure, clean fun. What demographic likes MacArhtur Park? Housewives who enter a lot of baking competitions? Obviously the song had a lotta fans in two different generations. I can see the "camp" being appreciated by Donna Summer's fans. And if I ever have the money, I'd love to pitch Shatner to do a "serious" cover of the classic. Can't you just imagine how fun it would be to hear him speak/sing:

Between the parted pages and were pressed
In love's hot, fevered iron
Like a striped pair of pants


I am a big fan of Jimmy Webb, and Wichita Line is one of my top five all time songs, but I wince hard over many of the lines in MacArthur Park, finding it overall to be a slog for me to get through.

Granted there's some beautiful lines in the song, like the whole soft middle section that begins with "there will be another song for me.."

But overall it's pure melodrama, with an inane, proto-Stepford Wives chorus, where the worry over a melting cake is the image we're supposed to hold in our heads? Is that supposed to be a metaphor?

Plus, it seems to change person from one line to the next, in the chorus:

SOMEONE left a cake out in the rain
I don't think that I can take it cuz it took so long to bake it...and I'll never have that recipe again..OH NO!!!!!

Or maybe the singer just couldn't handle the thought of the fact he/she left the cake out, and couldn't cop to it, right away, and tried, for exactly one line, to pin it on someone else?

Or was that an empathetic act on the part of the singer? Is he/she empathizing with the unfortunate cake leaver-outer and OWNING that action, even though it wasn't the singer's fault?

SOMEONE left a cake out in the rain (who could've done that?...okay, Mike, become the baker..BE the baker...))
I don't think that I can take it cuz it took so long to bake it...


*************************************************************


Spring was never waiting for us, girl
It ran one step ahead
As we followed in the dance
Between the parted pages and were pressed
In love's hot, fevered iron
Like a striped pair of pants

MacArthur's Park is melting in the dark
All the sweet green icing flowing down
Someone left the cake out in the rain
I don't think that I can take it
'Cause it took so long to bake it
And I'll never have that recipe again
Oh, no

I recall the yellow cotton dress
Foaming like a wave
On the ground around your knees
The birds, like tender babies in your hands
And the old men playing checkers
By the trees

MacArthur's Park is melting in the dark
All the sweet green icing flowing down
Someone left the cake out in the rain
I don't think that I can take it
'Cause it took so long to bake it
And I'll never have the recipe again
Oh, no

There will be another song for me
For I will sing it
There will be another dream for me
Someone will bring it
I will drink the wine while it is warm
And never let you catch me looking at the sun
And after all the loves of my life
After all the loves of my life
You'll still be the one

I will take my life into my hands
And I will use it
I will win the worship in their eyes
And I will lose it
I will have the things that I desire
And my passion flow like rivers through the sky
And after all the loves of my life
Oh, after all the loves of my life
I'll be thinking of you
And wondering why

MacArthur's Park is melting in the dark
All the sweet green icing flowing down
Someone left the cake out in the rain
I don't think that I can take it
'Cause it took so long to bake it
And I'll never have that recipe again
Oh, no
Oh, no

No, no
Oh, no



Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 10/12/19 01:10 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Support Just Plain Folks

We would like to keep the membership in Just Plain Folks FREE! Your donation helps support the many programs we offer including Road Trips and the Music Awards.


Membership
Join Just Plain Folks
to receive the free
JPNotes Newsletter!
*this is separate from
message board registration*

Newest Members
ClarkFord, bethanykoubsky, David_Pulizzi, LarryMagee, wpaul2999
21237 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums116
Topics119,576
Posts1,127,033
Members21,237
Average Posts Daily31
Most Online3,244
Nov 8th, 2019
Just Plain Quotes
"It is amazing how much there is to learn when we think we know it all!" -Brian Austin Whitney
Today's Birthdays
Darrell House (69), Randy Barnette (54), Roy Harris (85), Russell Campbell (67)
Popular Topics(Views)
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0