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#1154867 - 07/04/19 02:12 PM Credentials, opinions, songs..  
Joined: Jul 2006
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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California
I brought this subject up in another thread and rather than derail it further started this one..

Do some people's opinions as to the value of an art object (song, painting, etc) have more weight than some other person's?

It's a curious subject.

Let's stick with songs, since that's more what we all do here.

Maybe if you are a paid professional critic? Still..

Many intelligent music people abhor the internet and social media for leveling the playing-field of opinion--most recently T-Bone Burnette mentioned this in his talk with Marc Maron. I have thought about this problem a lot and come to zero conclusions. It's intractable, to me.

I think I value a listener (his/her opinion) with ZERO credentials as much and maybe more than someone who has written thousands of great songs. Reason being: I am not writing songs for my peers. Not usually, at least..

But moving ahead..at this point in time, what is the alternative to a level-playing field, if that's not quite how it should be? The alternative leads me down this back-alley of thought that leads to this ugly Black Mirror scenario:

I can envision a Black Mirror episode where artists, critics, and the general public's opinions actually have a point value, based on their credentials. and in this future society, anybody who has an opinion that is met with another person with a higher rating, their lower's opinion gets censored or erased. It would make for an interesting bit of satire, I imagine, and not too far from where we are at, in society, given that social media has created these possibilities. Kinda like "Fifteen Million Credits" meets "Nosedive" --if you know the Black Mirror canon..

At least we can be glad these places are "clubs" that one has the choice to join or not join, and if I personally have a problem with any of this, it's the hypocrisy of some folks who join a club (like JPF) that is partly about sharing opinions, and then either assume a "one-eyed king" position within that club (IOW don't know how to share an opinion without assuming an authoritarian voice about something mostly subjective) or show their general distaste for those that share their opinions in even the most modest of ways.

I think we can agree liking or disliking any given song is mostly a subjective thing, but what about songwriting as a craft or profession? There do seem to be basic tenants that will survive from era to era..

But perhaps one problem is that most notions we have about craft are generally snapshots of the past. Like reading The Racing Form in order to pick out a winner. "Look here at what successful songwriters have done," kinda thing, and THAT at least deserves many asterisks..

Hip-hop, for one, seems to derive less of it's lyrical nature from the economy professed in "how-to-write-a-hit-song" books as it does from contemporary urban speech patterns and many-syllabled lines relying on rhythmic hooks as a dominant aspect of the writing. Some styles of music seem to demand we actually listen in order to actually figure out how to write for that genre! The best, though, are usually writers who live and breathe the music they love.

Anyway, I am curious about what other people think..

I think most of us are, or we wouldn't be here.

And I know one thing..I am a better writer for being here amongst y'all.. smile

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 07/04/19 06:05 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1154869 - 07/04/19 02:53 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Ray E. Strode  Online Content
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Brunswick, Ga. USA
Well,
You had to ask, didn't you? One guy here says, don't analize (or something to that effect,) just Compose the damned thing!
Another is Beauty is in the eyes of the Beholder. Now there is a lot of "Junk"" hanging in the Louvre but offically it is "Art". Or, one mans posion is another man's honey. And to really get into the weeds, which came first, the chicken or the egg.


Ray E. Strode
#1154875 - 07/04/19 07:46 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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JAPOV Offline
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JAPOV  Offline
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North Alabama
Speaking of ''Black Mirror", have you seen a most recent episode with Miley Cyrus? I loved it! Anyway, yea'.... The levels of subjectivity and sheer number of perspectives all bouncing off the industryís definitive wall of success.... Blah blah blah. Personally, Iíve just had to accept that Iím never going to be "mainstream"... whatever the hell that currently is lol. But thatís what most people shoot for and itís the reason every 14y/o with a guitar wants to be a "rockstar"! Iíve given up on aiming for the status quo because they keep moving the goalpost.... Fads come and go. I seek rarity and originality, I try to push limits, but above all... I remain true to myself smile


JAPOV is Just Another Point Of View but my friends call me Tony. If you like to sing then I'd like to know ya' smile https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/?bandID=1449856
#1154877 - 07/04/19 10:30 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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RonnieDean Offline
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RonnieDean  Offline
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What we're doing is dialing numbers. Trying to dial the number that rings the most phones regardless of who might be holding the phone. So just shoot for the lowest common denominator.

#1154879 - 07/05/19 02:32 AM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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JAPOV Offline
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JAPOV  Offline
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North Alabama
"So just shoot for the lowest common denominator...." Iím one of those people that gives everyone the benefit of the doubt..... IMO just saying that insults a vast majority of people. Music is the sound of emotion.... If that emotion doesnít ring true then even the "lowest common denominator" will object. Well.... at least I hope they would.....


JAPOV is Just Another Point Of View but my friends call me Tony. If you like to sing then I'd like to know ya' smile https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/?bandID=1449856
#1154880 - 07/05/19 03:23 AM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: JAPOV]  
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John Lawrence Schick Offline
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John Lawrence Schick  Offline
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PA
Originally Posted by JAPOV
"So just shoot for the lowest common denominator...." I’m one of those people that gives everyone the benefit of the doubt..... IMO just saying that insults a vast majority of people. Music is the sound of emotion.... If that emotion doesn’t ring true then even the "lowest common denominator" will object. Well.... at least I hope they would.....


Music IS emotion. It describes feelings that mere words canít touch.


John smile

#1154883 - 07/05/19 10:13 AM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Gary E. Andrews Online content
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Gary E. Andrews  Online Content
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Humans have been writing Songs for millennia. They have not exhausted the possibilities. Someone keeps popping up out of the woodwork with a new Song. And occasionally they write a good one. There's a lot of mediocre product that gets put on the market, less because it is remarkably fresh and entertaining than because, if the industry doesn't find someone to sell, they're out of business.

Opinions? Obviously several people had opinions about that product they participated in getting to market. Some probably felt it was better than nothing. At least we've got something to put out there, to promote the live shows where we make money. Some people buy the recorded product and attend the live shows, not because they are 'wow'ed' by the Song(s) than because it's something to do. More than once someone has shown up at the house with the 'new' music by the 'new' artist. They're enthused. Their criteria for what is in the product to be enthused about is different from mine. They had often spent their money on a pig in a poke (That's a pig, or something, moving in a sack, that you have not actually seen, for which you lay down your money in exchange to own.) They heard that one Song, and bought the other 13 on speculation that they'll like them too. I've done it. And been disappointed in the other 13. I once paid $17.00 for a CD to be supportive of an act. I want my money back. I considered investing in the debut CD's of two acts, literally financing at a couple thousand dollars, without having heard their product. I'd seen their live shows and they were talented. But their creative product, which I luckily heard before I stuck my tongue on the anvil and invited them to hit it, was not, in MY opinion, worthy of their investment, let alone mine.

Opinion is really all YOU have to make a judgment on your own product, and that of others. You can be wrong about yours and wrong about theirs. Or you can be right. When you do your Market Research, demonstrating the Song(s) and getting feedback from 'consumers', listeners, consuming with their ears, and perhaps 'consumers', laying down what someone called "The coin of the realm" in exchange for the pleasure of owning your Song(s) for repeat listening, then you might be able to confirm, or deny, your own opinion, your Momma's opinion, that girl in the front row who seems like she can't get enough of you, that crowd with the 'polite' applause versus that crowd that applauds with a perceptively genuine enthusiasm.

All you can do is put your product out there, on the table, and let the consumers decide. Their opinion is the only one that matters. Some professional critics gained a reputation for being wrong. If they said it was bad people learned to go see for themselves, because it was usually good, and that critic was just trying to downplay the competition for acts he had a vested interest in promoting. His 'credentials' got him to the 'microphone', on the pages of the 'magazine', but his 'opinion' lacked trustworthy credibility. If you're selling your product, recorded, live play, and making money, odds are you've done something right. If your Market Research shows you're not selling, recorded, or live, you might want to invest yourself more diligently in the day job (The boss is watching!) and keep refining your product.

Of product; there is inspiration, those words, that guitar work or piano work that you stumbled on, that tumbled into your brain and out of your mouth, or maybe out of your mouth, bypassing your brain, and YOU, the First Listener, said, "Hey! That's...that's interesting. That's...that's GOOD!" Your judgment at that point is all that matters. You got enough, inspired with something you didn't plan, something that just 'happened'.
Then, there's 'Craft', the rewriting, the incubation of the idea, YOU, the Songwriter, cogitating on just who this Singer-Character is who imposed themselves into your brain, caught your attention, Hooked you into 'assuming their persona', the way you think it might Hook others.
Now you start to 'Suspend Disbelief' yourself, to conceive the Singer-Character's world, his situation, what the ideas behind what you've got so far implies about a 'Storyline', a tale to tell. Not necessarily 'Your' tale. 'His' tale, this mysterious stranger. You try Lines and words and you 'Edit', you, the First Listener, make judgment calls about what works Rhythmically, ideologically coherent in that story, or, just Rhymes. You set traps, or stumble into them, like you said 'heart' and now you're stuck with 'apart, art, bart, cart, dart, Don't say it!, mart, part, quart (Near Rhyme? Imperfect Rhyme? Soft Rhyme?), start, tart, wart.
You Grab-A-Rhyme, 'deep inside', 'driving me insane', 'what can I say'.
YOU, the First Listener, employing your 'credentials', your qualifications to make these judgments, YOU go back and rewrite the Lyric.
You decide whether the pitch of Melody drops off, perhaps in volume too, at the end of the Line, or if you chew those vital Rhyme-Words off your tongue like Dylan, so they get 'sent' in a way the consumer can 'receive', delivering them the meaning of the whole Line. For want of a word, a Line is lost. For want of a Line a Verse fails. For want of a Line lost in a Verse the Chorus fails. Piss on your Bridge! It ain't workin' either! LOL

You are the First Listener. Without employing your 'credentials' to make all these judgment calls there would be nothing for the rest of the world to critique, the consumer judging whether to spend their hard-earned coin, the critique with prejudices and preferences of his own. Don't 'write country'. Don't 'write Rock n' Roll'. Don't 'write easy-listening or jazz or hip hop or world beat or opera'. Write...Songs. Write Songs you, the First Listener enjoy singing, but that Hook you in a way you think should Hook the next listener, and the next. Your credentials are as good as anybody's in the creation phase. Other people's credentials only come into play when you take your product to Market. By then you should have a little polish on it, should have made some judgment calls, and should find it appeals to the others like it does to you.


There will always be another song to be written. Someone will write it. Why not you? www.garyeandrews.com
#1154884 - 07/05/19 10:25 AM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Fdemetrio Offline
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I think there are two kinds of feedback, Subjective and Objective. Subjective means "do I like this, or don't I" and thats what REALLY matters in the end. I could play Visions of Johanna, one of Dylan's best songs, to my Niece and Nephew, and they would call it the worst thing they heard in a long time. Me being into music and songwriting, could counter with "reasons" why it's great. None of that matters, thats for text books, reality is, people like whatever they like, for whatever reasons they like.

Objective means there is a right way and a wrong way of doing things. ie, a guitar teacher might tell his student, "you are not fingering this scale correctly" even though the person can still play whats needed right, technically he's still playing it the wrong way, and thought to be developing bad habits. Again, if somebody listens to this guy playing on a record or live, it's not really going to matter if hes playing correctly, all the listener is concerned with is how he sounds and how his playing makes him feel.

Objective reviews may work better for somebody pitching to Nashville. Like, if you have a guy who already has major cuts in Nashville, and he tells you that this is not going to work, he might be on to something.

When it comes to you being the artist, it still pretty much comes down to people liking it or not liking it.

People on this forum tend to over analyze too much. Sometimes people post a song without posting the lyrics, and it's like "huh" wheres the lyrics. They immediately look at the lyrics posted on the forum, and start forming opinions before they hear anything. Which is NOT how music is listened to. Having the lyrics written somewhere is a luxury, not a necessity. So if you look for the lyrics before the song starts, your opinion of the song is already influenced.

But in regards to Mike's question. No, nobody is "smarter" when it comes to what they like. Some people think Gene Simmons is the greatest bass player of all time. There's no way to factually deny that. The Sex Pistols had MILLIONS of fans, they obviously did something to make people like them.

I see this here quite a bit and not just with music. Like if somebody is capable of making good productions, or plays an instrument well or whatever, that somehow they know more about OTHER things as well. Bring up politics, and some folks here tend to believe they are correct, and based on what? Because they play guitar well?

Simply put, I doubt that Mozart would have thought much of The Ramones, but I would still like The Ramones!

But I was also surprised to learn that Clapton was a fan of Green Day, and The Boss was a fan of Social Distortion.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/05/19 10:38 AM.
#1154885 - 07/05/19 10:49 AM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Gavin Sinclair Online content
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Gavin Sinclair  Online Content
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Good point about people reading the lyrics first. That seems to happen a lot and, unsurprisingly the lyric writers here are particularly prone to doing that. Then they remark that the song was not what they expected when they listened. Usually, they have formed an impression in their minds based on how they are accustomed to hearing their own lyrics put to music. Completely understandable, but it seems to me to be daft to do this when someone has posted a link to a song. I always listen first to get an idea of how well the song works as a combination of music and words without the influence of preconceptions based on reading the lyrics.

#1154886 - 07/05/19 10:57 AM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Fdemetrio Offline
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Fdemetrio  Offline
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Originally Posted by Gavin Sinclair
Good point about people reading the lyrics first. That seems to happen a lot and, unsurprisingly the lyric writers here are particularly prone to doing that. Then they remark that the song was not what they expected when they listened. Usually, they have formed an impression in their minds based on how they are accustomed to hearing their own lyrics put to music. Completely understandable, but it seems to me to be daft to do this when someone has posted a link to a song. I always listen first to get an idea of how well the song works as a combination of music and words without the influence of preconceptions based on reading the lyrics.


Exactly, if you read the worlds to I am The Walrus, or All You Need is Love, before hearing it, you would assume the song was going to suck. Instead you have two classic songs that have stood the test of time. Youd listen and then view the lyrics as an afterthought. But that's also because The Beatles performed it, when you hear a weaker performance and weaker recording, like home recording recordings, then your opinion might stand with what you first thought when you read the lyrics.

Truth is nobody really knows what a great song is. Most people dont know half the words to the songs they listen to, and it makes no difference. So obviously the music should be the first thing we consider.

I think we hear lyrics in dribs and drabs, sometimes one line does it.

"out on the road today I saw a Dead Head sticker on a caddillac" great line, even if i dont know the other lines

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/05/19 10:58 AM.
#1154887 - 07/05/19 11:57 AM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Unless I'm collaborating with others, opinions are the last thing I'm interested in during the creative process.

I do value opinions, no matter who expresses them, and they definitely have the power to sway me...but that's exactly why I want nothing to do with them while I'm inventing, not until a working draft of a piece is completed. THEN, maybe I'll rewrite it based on an outside opinion. More likely, I will remember the opinion that swayed me and apply it to future work.

All writers benefit from critique, but not all critique is beneficial. Because the quality of music is mostly subjective, there is no "best", so if we were to follow ALL criticism, it would be a roadmap to the generic middle, nothing resembling "outstanding". Meanwhile, creators who listen to no one run the risk of sucking while thinking they do not. It's up to each of us to decide how to respond to critique.

#1154889 - 07/05/19 12:15 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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Hi folks,

All good thoughts, keep them coming.

My original post was muddled as I was conflating several problems together.

I truly find the fact that social media makes the sharing of opinions immediate and level to be a vexing problem, and find myself sometimes a hypocrite when I like it cuz it's favoring me and hate it when it's not.

I agree with FD, there's things we talk about that clearly fall into objective or subjective categories, as in liking a song is a subjective thing, but certain basic properties of what makes a song "good" may fall more into the objective.

I'll throw this out there. Probably not a new thought and definitely not meant to stir up trouble, but the mood of this place changes with the folks who populate it, true, but I strongly believe it changes also because of the greater emotional landscape we are in as USA citizens and as World citizens. It seems we are all just a little more short tempered and quick to pass judgement on our peers, and I have to wonder why..wonder where it comes from..as I sit back in my chair and worry over Korea, potential future wars, border problems, etc...we are ALL affected by what is transpiring in our Country and in the World, on many levels, and by a man who is a de facto role model, like it or not.

So when I see potential fights break out over (to me) silly things (in the BIGGER picture) like "this artist is better than that one" or even when it's more personal and about not liking a line in our own song, I have to step back and go "whoa..time out..this was supposed to be fun.." Yes, it's also fun to get passionate when talking about the quality of a song, but let's also be aware that we used to be a little more tolerant of others' thoughts. THIS is the key change I think our current climate has brought on. It feels to me like our levels of tolerance of others who have differences of opinions has dropped significantly. It is not hard to look out into the world and see how this could easily happen. It's the basic fractal nature of..nature: what is happening on a grand scale is also happening when you dive down into the nitty-gritty of places like this.

Let's find a way to retain our humanity and maybe try to be a little more tolerant of others' opinions about subjective things?

Where's our sense of humor? Our current state of seriousness is definitely one trait I can see as having trickled down from the greater emotional landscape engulfing our Country.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 07/05/19 12:36 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1154890 - 07/05/19 12:34 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: JAPOV]  
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Originally Posted by JAPOV
Speaking of ''Black Mirror", have you seen a most recent episode with Miley Cyrus? I loved it! Anyway, yea'.... The levels of subjectivity and sheer number of perspectives all bouncing off the industryís definitive wall of success.... Blah blah blah. Personally, Iíve just had to accept that Iím never going to be "mainstream"... whatever the hell that currently is lol. But thatís what most people shoot for and itís the reason every 14y/o with a guitar wants to be a "rockstar"! Iíve given up on aiming for the status quo because they keep moving the goalpost.... Fads come and go. I seek rarity and originality, I try to push limits, but above all... I remain true to myself smile


I loved it. When she sang the Nine Inch Nails song I was in heaven.

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 07/05/19 12:34 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1154920 - 07/06/19 11:06 AM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Oct 2017
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Fdemetrio Offline
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Fdemetrio  Offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Hi folks,

All good thoughts, keep them coming.

My original post was muddled as I was conflating several problems together.

I truly find the fact that social media makes the sharing of opinions immediate and level to be a vexing problem, and find myself sometimes a hypocrite when I like it cuz it's favoring me and hate it when it's not.

I agree with FD, there's things we talk about that clearly fall into objective or subjective categories, as in liking a song is a subjective thing, but certain basic properties of what makes a song "good" may fall more into the objective.

I'll throw this out there. Probably not a new thought and definitely not meant to stir up trouble, but the mood of this place changes with the folks who populate it, true, but I strongly believe it changes also because of the greater emotional landscape we are in as USA citizens and as World citizens. It seems we are all just a little more short tempered and quick to pass judgement on our peers, and I have to wonder why..wonder where it comes from..as I sit back in my chair and worry over Korea, potential future wars, border problems, etc...we are ALL affected by what is transpiring in our Country and in the World, on many levels, and by a man who is a de facto role model, like it or not.

So when I see potential fights break out over (to me) silly things (in the BIGGER picture) like "this artist is better than that one" or even when it's more personal and about not liking a line in our own song, I have to step back and go "whoa..time out..this was supposed to be fun.." Yes, it's also fun to get passionate when talking about the quality of a song, but let's also be aware that we used to be a little more tolerant of others' thoughts. THIS is the key change I think our current climate has brought on. It feels to me like our levels of tolerance of others who have differences of opinions has dropped significantly. It is not hard to look out into the world and see how this could easily happen. It's the basic fractal nature of..nature: what is happening on a grand scale is also happening when you dive down into the nitty-gritty of places like this.

Let's find a way to retain our humanity and maybe try to be a little more tolerant of others' opinions about subjective things?

Where's our sense of humor? Our current state of seriousness is definitely one trait I can see as having trickled down from the greater emotional landscape engulfing our Country.

Mike


That's so true. When I "used to" critique, I dont any more, but even at my harshest, I never attacked the person. Sometimes they took it as an attack and it was all on then. But when I see social media, twitter Facebook youtube posts, and how mean and nasty and basicly evil the comments are...it makes me long for a time when we didn't have the internet.

There is alot of things social media and internet are good for, but it sickens me to realize how mean people are in general. There was a story on yahoo about a little girl who got hit with a baseball at a ball game. She was sitting with her grandfather and a foul ball hit her. So naturally the peanut gallery starting commenting underneath. "How stupid to bring a child to a ball game", these parents should be put in jail for such negligence, or the halfway decent "im sorry for the little girl, but these parents should know better" etc etc etc. lets stop to think for a minute. The family has to be beside themselves at this moment, the girl was fighting for her life. Imagine the guilt and how hurt they are about this, and then they have to read all the commentary from people who dont really care either way, they are entertaining themselves. As if the parents dont already have all these thoughts going through their mind.

It's truly a sad world we live in. Id like to chalk it up to people not realizing that the people they are bashing are real people, but it just continues and its generally accepted to bash people online, and get a thumbs up and get a laugh from other people.

When I was a kid, my folks had opinions of presidents and such, but it never left the household, there was no real place to go with your opinions, and you assumed nobody cared what you thought anyway. Then the net came around and now everybody is an expert on all topics, politics, health care, immigration, music, recording, production, Tv, Movies.

Its more likely to bring out the worst in us than the best. I honestly sometimes do wish we could back to simpler times, but it wont happen.

Anyway, nobody likes their hard work to get a negative response, i dont like it any more than any one else does. And i think there is a certain amount of bullying that goes with it.

There is an implication that if somebody gives you a critique, that they assume they are better than you are, and are qualifies to give the negative review. That pisses people off, and it may be true. If we felt the writer was better than we are, we might not say anything. So there's that "WHO TF is this guy to tell me my lyrics are weak"

You wont see a critique out of me again. If it's an opinion. I LIKE this, then i may say it, or if somebody asks me specifically for an honest critique, maybe. Then again if your wife asks you if she looks fat in her new dress......



Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/06/19 11:25 AM.
#1154926 - 07/06/19 01:10 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: JAPOV]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Originally Posted by JAPOV
"So just shoot for the lowest common denominator...." Iím one of those people that gives everyone the benefit of the doubt..... IMO just saying that insults a vast majority of people. Music is the sound of emotion.... If that emotion doesnít ring true then even the "lowest common denominator" will object. Well.... at least I hope they would.....


Hi Ronnie, hi Tony..

Maybe the truth falls somewhere in between dialing numbers and being true to ourselves. I imagine for most writers there's both a need to both be liked and accepted as well as remaining true to one's self. This makes the creation of art interesting and unpredictable.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 07/06/19 01:24 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1154927 - 07/06/19 01:11 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Gary E. Andrews]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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California
Hi Gary, thanks for your interesting and inspiring post!

Mike


Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1154928 - 07/06/19 01:12 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,912
Michael Zaneski Offline
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Michael Zaneski  Offline
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California
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Hi folks,

All good thoughts, keep them coming.

My original post was muddled as I was conflating several problems together.

I truly find the fact that social media makes the sharing of opinions immediate and level to be a vexing problem, and find myself sometimes a hypocrite when I like it cuz it's favoring me and hate it when it's not.

I agree with FD, there's things we talk about that clearly fall into objective or subjective categories, as in liking a song is a subjective thing, but certain basic properties of what makes a song "good" may fall more into the objective.

I'll throw this out there. Probably not a new thought and definitely not meant to stir up trouble, but the mood of this place changes with the folks who populate it, true, but I strongly believe it changes also because of the greater emotional landscape we are in as USA citizens and as World citizens. It seems we are all just a little more short tempered and quick to pass judgement on our peers, and I have to wonder why..wonder where it comes from..as I sit back in my chair and worry over Korea, potential future wars, border problems, etc...we are ALL affected by what is transpiring in our Country and in the World, on many levels, and by a man who is a de facto role model, like it or not.

So when I see potential fights break out over (to me) silly things (in the BIGGER picture) like "this artist is better than that one" or even when it's more personal and about not liking a line in our own song, I have to step back and go "whoa..time out..this was supposed to be fun.." Yes, it's also fun to get passionate when talking about the quality of a song, but let's also be aware that we used to be a little more tolerant of others' thoughts. THIS is the key change I think our current climate has brought on. It feels to me like our levels of tolerance of others who have differences of opinions has dropped significantly. It is not hard to look out into the world and see how this could easily happen. It's the basic fractal nature of..nature: what is happening on a grand scale is also happening when you dive down into the nitty-gritty of places like this.

Let's find a way to retain our humanity and maybe try to be a little more tolerant of others' opinions about subjective things?

Where's our sense of humor? Our current state of seriousness is definitely one trait I can see as having trickled down from the greater emotional landscape engulfing our Country.

Mike


That's so true. When I "used to" critique, I dont any more, but even at my harshest, I never attacked the person. Sometimes they took it as an attack and it was all on then. But when I see social media, twitter Facebook youtube posts, and how mean and nasty and basicly evil the comments are...it makes me long for a time when we didn't have the internet.

There is alot of things social media and internet are good for, but it sickens me to realize how mean people are in general. There was a story on yahoo about a little girl who got hit with a baseball at a ball game. She was sitting with her grandfather and a foul ball hit her. So naturally the peanut gallery starting commenting underneath. "How stupid to bring a child to a ball game", these parents should be put in jail for such negligence, or the halfway decent "im sorry for the little girl, but these parents should know better" etc etc etc. lets stop to think for a minute. The family has to be beside themselves at this moment, the girl was fighting for her life. Imagine the guilt and how hurt they are about this, and then they have to read all the commentary from people who dont really care either way, they are entertaining themselves. As if the parents dont already have all these thoughts going through their mind.

It's truly a sad world we live in. Id like to chalk it up to people not realizing that the people they are bashing are real people, but it just continues and its generally accepted to bash people online, and get a thumbs up and get a laugh from other people.

When I was a kid, my folks had opinions of presidents and such, but it never left the household, there was no real place to go with your opinions, and you assumed nobody cared what you thought anyway. Then the net came around and now everybody is an expert on all topics, politics, health care, immigration, music, recording, production, Tv, Movies.

Its more likely to bring out the worst in us than the best. I honestly sometimes do wish we could back to simpler times, but it wont happen.

Anyway, nobody likes their hard work to get a negative response, i dont like it any more than any one else does. And i think there is a certain amount of bullying that goes with it.

There is an implication that if somebody gives you a critique, that they assume they are better than you are, and are qualifies to give the negative review. That pisses people off, and it may be true. If we felt the writer was better than we are, we might not say anything. So there's that "WHO TF is this guy to tell me my lyrics are weak"

You wont see a critique out of me again. If it's an opinion. I LIKE this, then i may say it, or if somebody asks me specifically for an honest critique, maybe. Then again if your wife asks you if she looks fat in her new dress......





Hi FD,

All good thoughts, thanks for them.

It comes down to the fact, for me, that being in a club like Facebook or JPF is a choice I make, so I need to catch myself when I find I'm complaining about the very medium I am using to make that complaint. Social media is only as good as you make it, but it does turn the stomach to witness how some use it.

And being a big Marc Maron fan and listening to his podcasts (which include a great over-an-hour conversation with The Boss from last year, btw..) I have come to realize that it's NOT because there's anything wrong with us, being offended by spiteful tweets and ugly posts. Conversations about social media have come up a LOT on his podcasts, and you'd be surprised how many high profile artists DON'T read any of the "anonymous" crap folks can write about them, and many don't use social media at all!. There was just no evolutionary preparation for such potential bombardment of negativity! Not for people who weren't performing live, at least. To me, it's a fascinating subject. The times are still a' changin' fo sho..

But if we've chosen to belong to a particular club, I suppose it's a mature place to be, to accept that with membership may come the occasional flying bits of crap. wink

And I can own that I am no saint. For some reason, when talking about something within the umbrella of "sampling culture" I will get so passionate that I can go rouge and let my passion put hurtful words in my mouth.

BTW, I'm also in agreement about reading lyrics in tandem with listening, not before.

Thanks again,

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 07/06/19 01:53 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1154929 - 07/06/19 01:14 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Originally Posted by Gavin Sinclair
Good point about people reading the lyrics first. That seems to happen a lot and, unsurprisingly the lyric writers here are particularly prone to doing that. Then they remark that the song was not what they expected when they listened. Usually, they have formed an impression in their minds based on how they are accustomed to hearing their own lyrics put to music. Completely understandable, but it seems to me to be daft to do this when someone has posted a link to a song. I always listen first to get an idea of how well the song works as a combination of music and words without the influence of preconceptions based on reading the lyrics.


Hi Gavin,

I often read first, but FD makes a good point, so like you, I may curb my future over-enthusiasm..


Mike


Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1154934 - 07/06/19 02:41 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Feb 2005
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Dave Rice Offline
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Texas
Opinions, beliefs, likes or dislikes... it's what makes us humans... and that's fine. Knowing how best to express those opinions without getting snarky is the difficult part.

I suppose I would rather read the lyric while hearing the melody and vocal... but I prefer to hear the song before watching a video. My thinking is simply that the song should be able to stand on it's own two legs without all the distractions (and some of the videos can be quite entertaining or good)... 'cause I grew up in the era when only radio stations were available to us poor schnooks.

Interesting topic, Mike... and some good reading, too. Thanks, ----Dave

#1154943 - 07/06/19 06:22 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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JAPOV Offline
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Hmmmm..... Isn't a lot of what we're talking about actually supposed to be happening here by default? The general public isnít congregating on this site... songwriters are. We "DO" bounce rough ideas off each other, play for each other, and even ask (or give each other permission) to critique. Obviously any creative/artistic endeavor is going to be met with highly competitive and hyper opinionated scrutiny. There's an old adage about hot kitchens lol..... and being careful what you ask for. What I canít tolerate is when a self proclaimed "industry pro" shows up offering NOTHING BUT CRITICISM in an obvious campaign to promote only himself and whatever studio heís affiliated with. I havenít met anyone here like that yet, but I'm sure they come around from time to time....

"Stop over-analyzing and just compose the damn thing!"..... Lol, I like that smile

Last edited by JAPOV; 07/06/19 06:36 PM.

JAPOV is Just Another Point Of View but my friends call me Tony. If you like to sing then I'd like to know ya' smile https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/?bandID=1449856
#1154945 - 07/06/19 06:53 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
Unless I'm collaborating with others, opinions are the last thing I'm interested in during the creative process.

I do value opinions, no matter who expresses them, and they definitely have the power to sway me...but that's exactly why I want nothing to do with them while I'm inventing, not until a working draft of a piece is completed. THEN, maybe I'll rewrite it based on an outside opinion. More likely, I will remember the opinion that swayed me and apply it to future work.

All writers benefit from critique, but not all critique is beneficial. Because the quality of music is mostly subjective, there is no "best", so if we were to follow ALL criticism, it would be a roadmap to the generic middle, nothing resembling "outstanding". Meanwhile, creators who listen to no one run the risk of sucking while thinking they do not. It's up to each of us to decide how to respond to critique.



I hear you about "opinions-while-working" --those can be dangerous to the creative spirit.

Most good writers tend to be the their own toughest critics, and so 99% of the time will have already dealt with any potential problems that can arise in the construction of a song. But there can always be blind spots and "darlings" that we don't see as such.

But that has zero to do with if a song is any good or not. But for that, I am not sure that a peer's opinion is any more valid than any anonymous listener who might happen to like the same kind of music. A peer might be more valuable as to the mechanics of what makes the song tick or not but his/her own expertise may even actually get in the way of a simple visceral response to a song, like an everyday listener is more prone to have.

What you're describing in terms of "all criticism" or consensus of opinion reminded me of Rottentomatoes and how it irritates me when I suggest a movie to my sister and she says, "hmmm, it only got a 65 on Rottentomatoes" lol..

Thanks, Mark for you insights and a look into your process. smile

Mike



Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 07/06/19 06:55 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1154947 - 07/06/19 07:08 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Dave Rice]  
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Originally Posted by Dave Rice
Opinions, beliefs, likes or dislikes... it's what makes us humans... and that's fine. Knowing how best to express those opinions without getting snarky is the difficult part.

I suppose I would rather read the lyric while hearing the melody and vocal... but I prefer to hear the song before watching a video. My thinking is simply that the song should be able to stand on it's own two legs without all the distractions (and some of the videos can be quite entertaining or good)... 'cause I grew up in the era when only radio stations were available to us poor schnooks.

Interesting topic, Mike... and some good reading, too. Thanks, ----Dave


Hi Dave,

I remember when MTV first came out, I had just moved to Manhattan to work for Tower Records there in 1983, and remember watching Duran Duran's Rio video and thinking, "hmmm..they got some nice looking young women, but the song still sucks.." LOL..

I think younger generations who grow up with an over-saturation of visuals supplanting their own imaginations will tend to like lyrics that lack in any form of subtlety. But that's a generalization. There will always be folks who will keep the flame alive.

Thanks for your take and I agree wholeheartedly. smile

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 07/06/19 07:12 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1154948 - 07/06/19 07:35 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: JAPOV]  
Joined: Jul 2006
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Originally Posted by JAPOV
Hmmmm..... Isn't a lot of what we're talking about actually supposed to be happening here by default? The general public isnít congregating on this site... songwriters are. We "DO" bounce rough ideas off each other, play for each other, and even ask (or give each other permission) to critique. Obviously any creative/artistic endeavor is going to be met with highly competitive and hyper opinionated scrutiny. There's an old adage about hot kitchens lol..... and being careful what you ask for. What I canít tolerate is when a self proclaimed "industry pro" shows up offering NOTHING BUT CRITICISM in an obvious campaign to promote only himself and whatever studio heís affiliated with. I havenít met anyone here like that yet, but I'm sure they come around from time to time....

"Stop over-analyzing and just compose the damn thing!"..... Lol, I like that smile



Hi Tony,

Yes indeed, by default this is a place where critiques happen and opinions abound, and I have no problem with that and I'm sorry if my posts led you to believe that I do.

As I said, by virtue of the fact that we are free to join or NOT join these "clubs" makes whining about how "ugliness happens here" kind of moot, since we are always free to go. But if enough ugliness happens, many of those people that are free to go actually do. It happened in the last election cycle and in periods where trollery was more rampant. If you are around here come next election season, you will see what I mean.

My original post was talking about two entirely different things which might have led to some confusion. Opinions we have about a peer's work and opinions we have about a recording artist's work.

But with both, I find it gets dicey when some folks attempt to back their "opinion" with their credentials rather than persuasive speech or debate. That's just lazy. And ugly.

It happens in reverse to, some folks, when you've shared your subjective opinion will say (in so many words), "why should I listen to you? What have you ever done?" --and with that you are left feeling like you have to submit a resume' or something or they won't feel obliged to listen to what you say. That is also lazy and ugly. .

But no, I am fine with the day-to-day stuff which can get a little harsh but hey, such is life. smile

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 07/07/19 04:23 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1154950 - 07/06/19 07:51 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
Joined: Jun 2019
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JAPOV Offline
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"'But with both, I find it gets dicey when some folks attempt to back their "opinion" with their credentials rather than persuasive speech or debate. That's just lazy. And ugly."'

You're right, I may be missing your point since I havenít seen that happen here yet... Perhaps "IMHO" is over used lol.


JAPOV is Just Another Point Of View but my friends call me Tony. If you like to sing then I'd like to know ya' smile https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/?bandID=1449856
#1154963 - 07/07/19 03:11 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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The original thought as I read on your thread was on "opinions as to the value of an art object". The interpretation of value could vary from emotional to financial. The different areas where critique can benefit on this forum include technique, sing-ability, and marketability - to mention a few. So I would say someone who performs live would be more credible for advice on whether a lyric sings well. But "sing-ability" doesn't register within what the average audience would value. Why? - Because they don't sing songs professionally.
So many equate great selling songs with "value". But consider this - How many of those great selling songs would've been the break-through songs for that artist or any other artist? I doubt that "I AM THE WALRUS" would've been a break-through song for the Beatles(and I like the Beatles). More so today that ever before, artists are marketed to become idols to their fans so that the fans spend money to buy that album and go to that concert when they really only love(or value) less than a handful of that artist's songs IMHO(LOL). I don't want to over-"analize"(LOL)(was that a typo or intentional?) - but if the value is defined as love(emotionally moving) that's going to vary with each individual because what makes me laugh, cry, or wanna make love is different from everyone else.

Last edited by summeoyo; 07/07/19 03:12 PM.
#1154970 - 07/07/19 06:38 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Do you ever feel like the tail is wagging the dog? When I listen to the radio, I know for certain that I had absolutely no influence upon what someone decided was "marketable". When I spend time on sites like these, I find what my peers are doing to be encouraging but ultimately fruitless....


JAPOV is Just Another Point Of View but my friends call me Tony. If you like to sing then I'd like to know ya' smile https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/?bandID=1449856
#1154973 - 07/07/19 07:26 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Gavin Sinclair Online content
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Gavin Sinclair  Online Content
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Definitely the tail wagging the dog. People are told what to like and it works, especially with the kids. It was always that way. The difference is that today everyone actually has relatively easy access to great music, but nobody is telling them to like it. So, they listen to the Jonas Brothers.

It will be interesting to see the impact of the movie about Springsteen's music that's coming out soon. It seems to be aimed at a young audience. Will they take this as permission to like Springsteen?

#1154984 - 07/08/19 10:44 AM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Fdemetrio Offline
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Originally Posted by Gavin Sinclair
Definitely the tail wagging the dog. People are told what to like and it works, especially with the kids. It was always that way. The difference is that today everyone actually has relatively easy access to great music, but nobody is telling them to like it. So, they listen to the Jonas Brothers.

It will be interesting to see the impact of the movie about Springsteen's music that's coming out soon. It seems to be aimed at a young audience. Will they take this as permission to like Springsteen?


I find that kids like COVERS of Beatles songs, and not the original. One day my Niece was singing Good Day sunshine, I said wow you know that song. "yea I luv it" "i didnt know you cared for the Beatles...The Beatles?... played it not the same response. I think what makes the generation gaps big is the sound. The Beatles recordings while great for their time just wont sound appealing enough to kids used to having ear candy like they have today.

I took my nephew to See Bruce, cost me 150 bucks for him too. I thought I was gonna have a revelational moment with him and My sister n law had pictures on her social media showing everybody we were there. But he's like he's good, but tooo longg!

Jazz musicians have always said that if a kid is not exposed to jazz at an early age, he will never like it, might be the same for any music really. If you played The Beatles to your kids all the time theyd probably develop an ear for it.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/08/19 10:45 AM.
#1154988 - 07/08/19 01:06 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: summeoyo]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Originally Posted by summeoyo
The original thought as I read on your thread was on "opinions as to the value of an art object". The interpretation of value could vary from emotional to financial. The different areas where critique can benefit on this forum include technique, sing-ability, and marketability - to mention a few. So I would say someone who performs live would be more credible for advice on whether a lyric sings well. But "sing-ability" doesn't register within what the average audience would value. Why? - Because they don't sing songs professionally.
So many equate great selling songs with "value". But consider this - How many of those great selling songs would've been the break-through songs for that artist or any other artist? I doubt that "I AM THE WALRUS" would've been a break-through song for the Beatles(and I like the Beatles). More so today that ever before, artists are marketed to become idols to their fans so that the fans spend money to buy that album and go to that concert when they really only love(or value) less than a handful of that artist's songs IMHO(LOL). I don't want to over-"analize"(LOL)(was that a typo or intentional?) - but if the value is defined as love(emotionally moving) that's going to vary with each individual because what makes me laugh, cry, or wanna make love is different from everyone else.


Thoughtful post, sommeyoyo,

I think art and commerce mostly go hand-in-hand, though aren't necessarily motivated by one another. Although if you look at it in Maslovian terms, "art" happens after more primal needs are met in a society, and commerce is motivated by the need to take care of those needs as well as less primal ones. So indeed, commerce can't define value, since it has it's hands in the cookie jar, so to speak. A vested, biased interest.

Interesting point about break-through songs. "I am The Walrus" is a great example, though, of stretching the boundaries even further apart, in terms of "what can we do as a band and still call ourselves 'The Beatles' "--culminating with the stretchiest when they recorded "Revolution #9" --but don't we all write our own narratives and know that stretching comes after success, unless we think of ourselves as "experimental artists" ..?

I guess, but we all stretch sooner or later, just so we feel alive. We change and in hindsight usually call it "growth" It follows that this is no different in art. That's why seeing Miley Cyrus singing Nine Inch Nails was such a blast!

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 07/08/19 01:34 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1155005 - 07/08/19 07:06 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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I read the Story behind I am The Walrus was Lennon had gotten a letter from some kids in school telling him they were analyzing their lyrics in class. So Lennon decided fo F with them and wrote I am The Walrus.

in my opinion Art and Commerce intersect, but they are two different things. Its hard to make music with out SOME semblance of thinking you can do something with it as opposed to it just staying there and doing nothing.

But you can make the argument that commerce ruined music, it wasn't supposed to be for sale. Cave men made music and didnt have the insight to sell it.

It was originally designed to bring tribal people together, for prayer and communion.

TV shows like American Idol make it a competition and make it even more about commerce.

It is a bit of a shame that artists cant make a living without worrying about if something will sell big. Some artists are big enough to do that Like Paul Simon or Neil Young, but most people cant afford to put out great art albums if nobody will pay for them.

Be great if the government could give artists a stipen. nobody gets rich, nobody starves. Fantasy world I guess

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/08/19 07:12 PM.
#1155006 - 07/08/19 07:55 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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"Be great if the government could give artists a stipen. nobody gets rich, nobody starves. Fantasy world I guess"........

I vehemently disagree! I believe the "powers that be" need to stop using "the media" to tell people what to believe and how to feel in this hyper-politically correct social environment that "they" engineered. We simply cannot all be the same...... and rebellion or disregard for traditional moral values is the easiest thing to teach a child.


JAPOV is Just Another Point Of View but my friends call me Tony. If you like to sing then I'd like to know ya' smile https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/?bandID=1449856
#1155009 - 07/08/19 09:22 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: JAPOV]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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Originally Posted by JAPOV
"Be great if the government could give artists a stipen. nobody gets rich, nobody starves. Fantasy world I guess"........

I vehemently disagree! I believe the "powers that be" need to stop using "the media" to tell people what to believe and how to feel in this hyper-politically correct social environment that "they" engineered. We simply cannot all be the same...... and rebellion or disregard for traditional moral values is the easiest thing to teach a child.


Tony, look at what you wrote and notice that you "beg the question" with part of your quote, as if it's an unquestioned belief that everyone has, that "the powers-that-be are using media to tell people what to believe." It begs the question, and maybe over-generalizes?

I think you would need to prove that first (tall order) before you can make a statement that assumes that's just a natural-borne fact..

But let's be careful not to sway this too deep into the political arena, cuz then things will most certainly go to shite..

Otherwise, have fun! smile

Mike



Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 07/08/19 09:30 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1155010 - 07/08/19 09:28 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Gavin Sinclair Online content
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i agree with you Tony, although certainly not for the same reasons. There are countries where the arts are subsidized quite substantially. In Scotland, for example, the book publishing is pretty generously subsidized, which seems like a good idea, but pretty soon the same cliques start to include both the authors of awful short story collections and those who publish them. "Worthy" volumes are published to be read pretty much only by those who were involved in their creation and publication. The result is a completely sterile and dreary literary "establishment."

Some support for the arts is definitely a good idea, but the truly innovative and relevant creations are likely to emerge from elsewhere.

#1155011 - 07/08/19 09:33 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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I am missing the connection between art stipends and government control of the media. Is the artist losing artistic freedom somehow? We're not talking about Government approved grants, here..

I am not going to add anymore, though, to this particular thread subtopic, but I'll read and maybe learn something.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 07/08/19 09:38 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1155012 - 07/08/19 09:38 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Damned if I do, damned if I donít..... Lol. Hereís a challenge, name anything left in life that isnít for sale and has not been politicized one way or another.....


JAPOV is Just Another Point Of View but my friends call me Tony. If you like to sing then I'd like to know ya' smile https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/?bandID=1449856
#1155017 - 07/09/19 09:23 AM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: JAPOV]  
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Originally Posted by JAPOV
"Be great if the government could give artists a stipen. nobody gets rich, nobody starves. Fantasy world I guess"........

I vehemently disagree! I believe the "powers that be" need to stop using "the media" to tell people what to believe and how to feel in this hyper-politically correct social environment that "they" engineered. We simply cannot all be the same...... and rebellion or disregard for traditional moral values is the easiest thing to teach a child.


The radio has been telling people what to believe and what to like since it started, so has TV and now the internet, to varying degrees.

All I simply said was a wishful, want for artists to be paid for their work as a job in other words, as opposed to being business men.

In China and other Asian countries Doctors are paid by the government, to keep people healthy. They get paid to practice the art of medicine to help people. Imagine a world where artists could do the same thing. I know its far fetched, but it was only an alternative to making music a dog eat dog business, where some artists have to write and record stuff they dont want to, but do so because it sells. In my vision artists/engineers/producers get paid the same way as doctors in asia. If they keep people happy and listening, they get paid.

I dont believe in socialism im just leery about capitalism when it comes to art, love it for just about everything else.

I realize taking the business out of music takes away from capitalism, but what happens is alot of great music gets swept under the rug, or not even made because the artist has to pay the bills. And other artists never get noticed because they dont make music that makes money.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 07/09/19 09:33 AM.
#1155019 - 07/09/19 09:57 AM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Every form of government throughout history has always followed one simple pattern......
The many, subjugated by the few, who pledge fealty to one. It doesnít matter what label you put on it, the only difference is in how big an A-hole that "one" is. As long as money is involved, all governments are capitalist. In a perfect world there would be an agreed upon "minimum standard of living" that would never change and the economy would always be guided by that standard. But wherever thereís money, thereís greed.... and wherever thereís greed thereís control....


JAPOV is Just Another Point Of View but my friends call me Tony. If you like to sing then I'd like to know ya' smile https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/?bandID=1449856
#1155023 - 07/09/19 10:07 AM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: JAPOV]  
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Originally Posted by JAPOV
Every form of government throughout history has always followed one simple pattern......
The many, subjugated by the few, who pledge fealty to one. It doesnít matter what label you put on it, the only difference is in how big an A-hole that "one" is. As long as money is involved, all governments are capitalist. In a perfect world there would be an agreed upon "minimum standard of living" that would never change and the economy would always be guided by that standard. But wherever thereís money, thereís greed.... and wherever thereís greed thereís control....


But were not talking about the government per se. Were talking about a theoretical change in the way artistis make a living.

#1155024 - 07/09/19 10:13 AM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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LOL.... When has any government ever subsidized anything that it did not claim authority and control over?


JAPOV is Just Another Point Of View but my friends call me Tony. If you like to sing then I'd like to know ya' smile https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/?bandID=1449856
#1155025 - 07/09/19 10:16 AM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: JAPOV]  
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Originally Posted by JAPOV
LOL.... When has any government ever subsidized anything that it did not claim authority and control over?


Yeah i guess the government would have to be involved as they are with Asian Doctors, kinda scary being a doctor and if your patients dont stay well you dont get paid.

but i dont know maybe the music business could do it on its own. Somehow the music business collects all monies and pays the artists from that. But I guess there are just too many artists and wanna be artists for it to work.

As I said, it was just a nice thought.

#1155026 - 07/09/19 10:18 AM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Oh, shoot yea'! Dreaming is still free baby! smile


JAPOV is Just Another Point Of View but my friends call me Tony. If you like to sing then I'd like to know ya' smile https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/?bandID=1449856
#1155044 - 07/09/19 05:07 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: JAPOV]  
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Gavin Sinclair Online content
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Gavin Sinclair  Online Content
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Originally Posted by JAPOV
LOL.... When has any government ever subsidized anything that it did not claim authority and control over?


The BBC. PBS, although it's a tiny subsidy. NPR, same but tinier. These are rare examples, though, I'll grant you that, and they have to fight off threats to their independence all the time.

#1155062 - 07/10/19 12:58 AM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Huh..... ? I never would have guessed that since theyíre always asking for public donations....


JAPOV is Just Another Point Of View but my friends call me Tony. If you like to sing then I'd like to know ya' smile https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/?bandID=1449856
#1155069 - 07/10/19 04:45 AM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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The social platforms have turned to Microsoft and Google throughout the world that has the net. Not operating systems like linux or lotus anymore.
Anti-trust laws of the past did not anticipate the internet.
Different belief systems and ways of doing things looks to be controlled by a corporate communism.
I guess it is ripe time for who has the brains to come up with a new medium and platform.
I wish I had brains.

#1155070 - 07/10/19 04:49 AM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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"corporate communism"............ Wow, thatís food for thought!


JAPOV is Just Another Point Of View but my friends call me Tony. If you like to sing then I'd like to know ya' smile https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/?bandID=1449856
#1155077 - 07/10/19 08:48 AM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: JAPOV]  
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Gavin Sinclair Online content
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Gavin Sinclair  Online Content
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Originally Posted by JAPOV
Huh..... ? I never would have guessed that since theyíre always asking for public donations....

Yes, they only get a very small part of their budget from the government. It used to be more. Now NPR gets about 2%, I believe, PBS a bit more. So, yes, they have to ask for donations all the time.

#1155083 - 07/10/19 12:07 PM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Well,
Credentials: I have to let my songs speak for me. There are several reasons a song is passed on. Not all of them because the song is pretty bad.

Opinions. Mostly my opinions is if I like a song or not. I rarely tell anyone if I like a song. Either I buy it or not.

Songs: There are tons of good music out there. A lot of it from the past. Really makes it hard to write good songs.
And that my friends is my opinion!


Ray E. Strode
#1155217 - 07/14/19 02:11 AM Re: Credentials, opinions, songs.. [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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That certainly is the "flip side" isnít it Ray? There truly isnít anything new under the sun.....
All thatís left IS to push the limits in an effort to redefine the NORM.


JAPOV is Just Another Point Of View but my friends call me Tony. If you like to sing then I'd like to know ya' smile https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/?bandID=1449856

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