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#1153783 - 06/04/19 11:20 AM Clapton The Songwriter....  
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Fdemetrio Online content
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Clapton's ode to his missing father. Still a nice song with fathers day around the corner.

My Father's Eyes
Eric Clapton

Pretty darnit good songwriter EC!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfzYn344gVw

Sailing down behind the sun,
Waiting for my prince to come.
Praying for the healing rain
To restore my soul again.
Just a toe rag on the run.
How did I get here?
What have I done?
When will all my hopes arise?
How will I know him?

When I look in my father´s eyes.
My father´s eyes.
When I look in my father´s eyes.
My father´s eyes.

Then the light begins to shine
And I hear those ancient lullabies.
And as I watch this seedling grow,
Feel my heart start to overflow.
Where do I find the words to say?
How do I teach him?
What do we play?
Bit by bit, I´ve realized
That´s when I need them,

That´s when I need my father´s eyes.
My father´s eyes.
That´s when I need my father´s eyes.
My father´s eyes.

Then the jagged edge appears
Through the distant clouds of tears.
I´m like a bridge that was washed away;
My foundations were made of clay.
As my soul slides down to die.
How could I lose him?
What did I try?
Bit by bit, I´ve realized
That he was here with me;

I looked into my father´s eyes.
My father´s eyes.
I looked into my father´s eyes.
My father´s eyes.
My father´s eyes.
My father´s eyes.
I looked into my father´s eyes.
My father´s eyes.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/04/19 11:41 AM.
#1153786 - 06/04/19 11:35 AM Clapton The Songwriter [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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cmon EC, give someone else a chance.... did you hear somebody saying you couldn't write? And then you say it in so few words, Sorry for doubting you EC!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxPj3GAYYZ0

Tears In Heaven
Eric Clapton

Would you know my name
If I saw you in heaven?
Would it be the same
If I saw you in heaven?
I must be strong and carry on
'Cause I know I don't belong here in heaven

Would you hold my hand
If I saw you in heaven?
Would you help me stand
If I saw you in heaven?
I'll find my way through night and day
'Cause I know I just can't stay here in heaven

Time can bring you down, time can bend your knees
Time can break your heart, have you begging please, begging please
Beyond the door there's peace I'm sure
And I know there'll be no more tears in heaven

Would you know my name
If I saw you in heaven?
Would it be the same
If I saw you in heaven?
I must be strong and carry on
'Cause I know I don't belong here in heaven

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/04/19 11:42 AM.
#1153788 - 06/04/19 11:52 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Wonderful Tonight, Bell Bottom Blues, Layla, Entire Cream Catalogue. Numeorus co-writes, It's in the way that you use it. EC decided to let Robbie Robertson have a go

I certainly havent heard anything remotely close to these by his detractors, and really, not many mainstream professional fully commercial artists have a catalogue this good, either. All from a guy who is known as a guitar slinger and not a songwriter.

Seems like slow hand could be called slow pen....

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/04/19 11:53 AM.
#1153792 - 06/04/19 02:56 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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You were able to come up with one post-Layla song? One song in nearly fifty years? Whose point are you trying to make? (Tears in Heaven is so shmaltzy it makes me cringe. The song from The Color of Money was forgotten two minutes after it came out)

Hey, I love The Yardbirds, the John Mayall album, Cream, Blind Faith and Layla. After that, Clapton slid into drug addiction, alcoholism and mediocrity. And I'd rather have been a part of Gone with the Ghost of the Sun, Strange Apparitions, Heavy Cross to Bear, Rose of Sunrise and a host
of others than his material after Layla.

That's not ego run amuck, it's well earned pride of authorship. If I say those tunes are better than what's on Graceland, then I'm Terence Trent Darby.

I can't believe you spent all that time and effort to counter my post. It's a mixture of sad, flattering and a little scary. I've said it before(I've probably said it to your other IDs on other sites, too, Norman)...you've got no leverage on me. You can't write. At all.

If you want to counter my point about talent, stop talking and post something decent. It's like that ep of Happy Days where
Fonzie tries to teach Richie to stand up to bullies. He realizes he made a mistake and tells Richie, "You've got no reputation for toughness, once in your life you had to have hit somebody."

Somewhere, sometime in all your years on these sites blathering about music, you had to have posted ONE good song. Then you'd have some credibility.

Forget about me. Take up Sudoku.

#1153807 - 06/05/19 10:24 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
You were able to come up with one post-Layla song? One song in nearly fifty years? Whose point are you trying to make? (Tears in Heaven is so shmaltzy it makes me cringe. The song from The Color of Money was forgotten two minutes after it came out)

Hey, I love The Yardbirds, the John Mayall album, Cream, Blind Faith and Layla. After that, Clapton slid into drug addiction, alcoholism and mediocrity. And I'd rather have been a part of Gone with the Ghost of the Sun, Strange Apparitions, Heavy Cross to Bear, Rose of Sunrise and a host
of others than his material after Layla.

That's not ego run amuck, it's well earned pride of authorship. If I say those tunes are better than what's on Graceland, then I'm Terence Trent Darby.

I can't believe you spent all that time and effort to counter my post. It's a mixture of sad, flattering and a little scary. I've said it before(I've probably said it to your other IDs on other sites, too, Norman)...you've got no leverage on me. You can't write. At all.

If you want to counter my point about talent, stop talking and post something decent. It's like that ep of Happy Days where
Fonzie tries to teach Richie to stand up to bullies. He realizes he made a mistake and tells Richie, "You've got no reputation for toughness, once in your life you had to have hit somebody."

Somewhere, sometime in all your years on these sites blathering about music, you had to have posted ONE good song. Then you'd have some credibility.

Forget about me. Take up Sudoku.


Well Delouie, I'm stunned, and shocked, and perplexed that you think I have ONE good song. Now I feel in Clapton's company. Hey I write every day, what I dont do is record and produce every day, i dont have a guy who does that for me, and Im still learning, i dont post 99% of my stuff

All im saying is you are quick to say so and so cant write.

First of all, a good song is very subjective. Like for example, you think all yours are great, I dont.

The question was can Clapton write? The answer is an easy YES. What difference does it make when it was written, the songs came out of him. Sure some guys wash up. Pete Townshend already announced that he can no longer write. But you cant say Pete Towshend cant write, he wrote some masterpieces.

And your notion that one needs to be a good songwriter to recognize a good song is also non sense. We all have opinions of songs, regardless. That's like saying some kid who just bought a guitar and knows two notes, is not qualified to say somebody elses music is good or bad, he has as much right as anyone else

Like saying if somebody's ugly, they cant tell if somebody else is pretty.

Let me simplify, if Clapton joined this site, and started writing music to some of the lyrics posted here, do you think he would write medicore music and melody to it, like the standard fare here, or do you think he would do something so incredible with it that the lyric person would be jumping up and down and sharing with everybody.

My moneys on the latter, based on what Clapton has done in music in last 50 years.

I dont know how you can think otherwise.





Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/05/19 11:42 AM.
#1153823 - 06/05/19 12:35 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Fd

You are back.

In 1972 my parents bought me a present for making almost all A's in in my third semester of college. I asked that it be a sunburst strat with a maple neck, because that is what Eric Clapton had. 46 years later, I still have it and it still plays. No bigger fan anywhere. I didnt know that he was a heroin addict or I would have asked for a Les Paul. But, in my ignorance, no bigger fan anywhere.

I consider him a great electric/blues/rock guitarist of the time. The Apex of his personal artistry, imo. is prolly Derek & D. Arguably the Cream, which I think was mostly Jack Bruce. He sang some good songs...Badge, Let It Rain, Layla, Forever Man, Wonderful Tonight, Tears in Heaven.

Layla is my pick for his greatest song, but that is mostly about his guitar, Allmans's guitar and the piano section. I don't consider him a great songwriter if lyrics are a consideration.

So there you have it for whatever it's worth to you. wink

Welcome back,

Martin

#1153864 - 06/06/19 09:22 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Fd

You are back.

In 1972 my parents bought me a present for making almost all A's in in my third semester of college. I asked that it be a sunburst strat with a maple neck, because that is what Eric Clapton had. 46 years later, I still have it and it still plays. No bigger fan anywhere. I didnt know that he was a heroin addict or I would have asked for a Les Paul. But, in my ignorance, no bigger fan anywhere.

I consider him a great electric/blues/rock guitarist of the time. The Apex of his personal artistry, imo. is prolly Derek & D. Arguably the Cream, which I think was mostly Jack Bruce. He sang some good songs...Badge, Let It Rain, Layla, Forever Man, Wonderful Tonight, Tears in Heaven.

Layla is my pick for his greatest song, but that is mostly about his guitar, Allmans's guitar and the piano section. I don't consider him a great songwriter if lyrics are a consideration.

So there you have it for whatever it's worth to you. wink

Welcome back,

Martin


Well the thread was created because of a comment "great musicians cant compose"

I could have used anyone as an example, whether you agree if Clapton is a great songwriter is one thing, but only a stooge would say he cant "compose"

He just happened to be able to write songs as well, with lyrics. It's also a far cry from saying somebody is not a great songwriter, to somebody "cant write"

There's Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, but there's also Phillip Rivers or Matt Ryan. You cant say the last two "cant play" They are very solid quarterbacks. Rivers might be a hall of famer.

Jeff Beck destroys Keith Richards on guitar, but you cant say Keith cant play.

If somebody asked me to name a great songwriter, I dont think id name Clapton, but I also defy you to tell me how many artists, songwriters, forget about on this forum, but in the commercial arena have songs like "Wonderful Tonight" "Layla" Tears in Heaven "Bell Bottom Blues" and have all the cowrites, and bands and artistry he created

I've read here people being mentioned as great. Why is it that people are willing to call people on this forum great, but cant see the greatness in Eric Clapton?


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/06/19 10:07 AM.
#1153871 - 06/06/19 01:32 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Let's put it this way...I'm a lot more likely to play and enjoy Clapton's worst album than any of our very best on this thread, even if they were available for free, which most of them are. Understand that I think there is some very fine work included in this description, not meant to be insulting. I like my stuff too, but I stand by what I just said. I'm not in the minority, either. Why is that?

I call it PLS, the Pancho and Lefty Syndromewhen songwriters get hung up on what they perceive to be the very best-of-the-best songwriting, imagining it to eclipse the tried and true classics of popular music. The thing is, there is no best, and best is never the goal of artistic expression anywaythere are no Art Olympics, just glitzy industry award shows to reinforce sales and morale. Ask any random person to name their favorite Clapton song, and you'll probably get an answer. Ask any random person about the song "Pancho and Lefty", a Holy Grail of songwriting in so many inner circles, and you KNOW you will most likely get a blank stare.

Everyone is right and everyone is wrong on this thread, because opinions are all just pets that mind their masters.

I'm going to go listen to "There's One in Every Crowd" now. Cheers! smile

#1153872 - 06/06/19 02:06 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Hey, I LOVE Pancho & Lefty LOL.

I get what you're saying though, although I'm not a huge Clapton fan.

One thing I have learned, in forums as in life, is that the ratio of self-satisfaction to actual greatness has a tendency to be inverse.

#1153873 - 06/06/19 03:03 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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I like it too! Awesome song. grin

I guess to me the experience of music is a lot more delightful and important than its rankings. Songs are vain and quaint and quickly dated, but sounds are eternal and beautiful.

#1153881 - 06/06/19 04:51 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Fd

I dint see..."great musicians can't compose."

Eric Clapton can definitely write a song.

#1153886 - 06/06/19 08:54 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Fd

Ps...A footnote to Layla,

My favorite bartender is a big Kris K fan, so I learned a cover for "Help Me Make It Through The Night." In the course of looking at Kris K videos on youtube, I came across some stuff about Rita Coolidge (ex wife I think), and her very believable claim that the piano section of Layla was stolen from her. Here is an interview...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1Rik_pdZDM

Here is "Time."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwJgWqLTeCw

What do you think?

#1153902 - 06/07/19 01:11 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Pretty darnit good songwriter stealer EC! smirk


Regards,

Bob

#1153903 - 06/07/19 02:23 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
Let's put it this way...I'm a lot more likely to play and enjoy Clapton's worst album than any of our very best on this thread, even if they were available for free, which most of them are. Understand that I think there is some very fine work included in this description, not meant to be insulting. I like my stuff too, but I stand by what I just said. I'm not in the minority, either. Why is that?

I call it PLS, the Pancho and Lefty Syndromewhen songwriters get hung up on what they perceive to be the very best-of-the-best songwriting, imagining it to eclipse the tried and true classics of popular music. The thing is, there is no best, and best is never the goal of artistic expression anywaythere are no Art Olympics, just glitzy industry award shows to reinforce sales and morale. Ask any random person to name their favorite Clapton song, and you'll probably get an answer. Ask any random person about the song "Pancho and Lefty", a Holy Grail of songwriting in so many inner circles, and you KNOW you will most likely get a blank stare.

Everyone is right and everyone is wrong on this thread, because opinions are all just pets that mind their masters.

I'm going to go listen to "There's One in Every Crowd" now. Cheers! smile


You mean you'd rather listen to a world renowned, critically acclaimed, virtuoistic guitarist/singer songwriter, with 50 years of music history behind him, than listen to one of us? Tee hee

Hey, I agree with everything you said. Especially the part about music being a part of individual expression. Shows like American idol try to make music a competition, it's not. I believe something can be had from all forms of music, at all levels.If you listen to first few...Billy Joel Albums, or Mellencamps, Tom Petty, Bruce first few albums, they all reflect an artist that is not quite yet there. It's a time capsule of where that artist is at that one moment. But just as interesting to listen to.

I used to jog a little around my town. Every Wednesday night id hear that beautiful sound of kids playing in a garage band. Of course, they didnt consider themselves a garage band. I saw one guy come out of the garage, and I said, "hey ive heard you guys jamming a number of times, do you mind if I come in an listen. "Mind? We cant get anybody to listen to us sure..."

It was beyond fun listening. Out of tune guitars, songs that never seemed to end. Drummer trying to roll sticks and dropping them. It was so great to hear and see.

There's something great about creating music, no matter what kind you make. The problem for most here is that they cant make it entertaining enough to sustain a listen.

I also think us amateurs run into trouble when we make stuff up. If you write real stuff, even if you have to alter and polish it over a bit, nobody can say anything to you, because you're being you. If you wear jeans to a wedding reception thats how you roll.....

When you make stuff up you need to be really good!

#1153904 - 06/07/19 02:36 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Interesting point about making it up vs real. I don't think you have to have lived every detail you write about, but you have to have felt the feelings behind the song. It's hard to write about heartbreak if you haven't been through it, love or joy if you haven't felt them, parenthood if you don't have kids, humor if you don't laugh easily at others' jokes. It's hard to make people dance, if you don't like to dance yourself. A song doesn't have to come from the heart, but when it does, it shows, and those are the songs that move us. At least that's the way I see it.

#1153905 - 06/07/19 02:41 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Fd

Ps...A footnote to Layla,

My favorite bartender is a big Kris K fan, so I learned a cover for "Help Me Make It Through The Night." In the course of looking at Kris K videos on youtube, I came across some stuff about Rita Coolidge (ex wife I think), and her very believable claim that the piano section of Layla was stolen from her. Here is an interview...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1Rik_pdZDM

Here is "Time."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwJgWqLTeCw

What do you think?




I dont know, it's possible, but he didnt steal the guitar riff to start it which is timeless.

There are so many copyright infringements that you have to wonder whats original and what isnt. Im not sure if i havent stole everything I ever wrote. Mostly because without hearing the music I love, or hearing any music, I wouldn't know where to begin. So id say most music is stolen, some more obvious than others.

All i know is any lyricist here would sell their left nut to co-write with Clapton, even if they already knew the song would never be heard or recorded!


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/07/19 03:04 PM.
#1153906 - 06/07/19 02:52 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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Originally Posted by Gavin Sinclair
Interesting point about making it up vs real. I don't think you have to have lived every detail you write about, but you have to have felt the feelings behind the song. It's hard to write about heartbreak if you haven't been through it, love or joy if you haven't felt them, parenthood if you don't have kids, humor if you don't laugh easily at others' jokes. It's hard to make people dance, if you don't like to dance yourself. A song doesn't have to come from the heart, but when it does, it shows, and those are the songs that move us. At least that's the way I see it.


I think you can either write about what you understand, or write about something that you cant understand for the life of you, and are trying to understand!

#1153908 - 06/07/19 07:01 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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FD

Fact. Unless they are a female lyricist. wink

#1153946 - 06/09/19 04:40 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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I thought it was universally acknowledged Clapton's career tanked after Layla. I myself believed it for forty years.

Then...

...I was criticized by Alyssa Milano on Twitter. Now I've completely reversed my earlier position. I just went to Zia's Used Records in Tucson and bought em all, including the Phil Collins years. They had many used copies, all going for a buck and change. I'm in the process of doxxing their employees for under valuing Clapton's later day classics.

Ps...I don't dare say Rod Stewart's songwriting took a dive after Atlantic Crossing...the pitchforks would really come out if I said I'm prouder of Calico Sundown than I would've been of Some Guys Have All the Luck...


Last edited by couchgrouch; 06/09/19 11:33 PM.
#1153955 - 06/10/19 02:55 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Wonderful Tonight used to make me cringe, but revisionist that I am, I now love it for it's simplicity and straightforwardness. The first verse reads like the first paragraph of a Raymond Carver short story, told so matter-of-fact-ly, and though the bridge is still kinda Hallmark-y to me, I love the earnestness of it all. This is something to learn from Clapton. If you detect shmaltz in your song, then consider doubling down and making everything as earnest as can be. The guitar hook is simple, the song's tone practically sacred..and it works for me.

Clapton's had a tough life and he's survived, and deepness has always been a criticism of his work, but FD's pointed out a gem with his ode to his dad, only matched by Guy Clark's "The Randall Knife" which makes me cry whenever I hear it.

Townes Van Zandt's life, it seems, had no real tragedy except that which he brought upon himself, but wrote deeper songs on the average, but was not unlike Jim Morrison in that he drank and drank to get into that space and it finally killed him. If there were demons in his past, they are buried very deeply. He was a kind of artistic knight who believed in the Rimbaudian "systematic derangement of the senses" in order to capture a nugget of truth

Whereas Clapton's deepest heart may have "shut down" in the Seventies, having suffered the loss of a child, a marraige, heroin AND alchohol addiction, and so sure, just having it together enough to pick out great songs like the JJ Cale and Marley covers was enough for me to give him a pass, but then digging into albums, even into the aforementioned "There's One In Every Crowd" has gems with some meaningful lyrics inside. "Make It Through Today" though rather childlike in its simplicity is rather revealing coming from a man dealing with all that, at that time.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 06/10/19 03:02 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1153957 - 06/10/19 04:44 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Wonderful Tonight used to make me cringe, but revisionist that I am, I now love it for it's simplicity and straightforwardness. The first verse reads like the first paragraph of a Raymond Carver short story, told so matter-of-fact-ly, and though the bridge is still kinda Hallmark-y to me, I love the earnestness of it all. This is something to learn from Clapton. If you detect shmaltz in your song, then consider doubling down and making everything as earnest as can be. The guitar hook is simple, the song's tone practically sacred..and it works for me.

Clapton's had a tough life and he's survived, and deepness has always been a criticism of his work, but FD's pointed out a gem with his ode to his dad, only matched by Guy Clark's "The Randall Knife" which makes me cry whenever I hear it.

Townes Van Zandt's life, it seems, had no real tragedy except that which he brought upon himself, but wrote deeper songs on the average, but was not unlike Jim Morrison in that he drank and drank to get into that space and it finally killed him. If there were demons in his past, they are buried very deeply. He was a kind of artistic knight who believed in the Rimbaudian "systematic derangement of the senses" in order to capture a nugget of truth

Whereas Clapton's deepest heart may have "shut down" in the Seventies, having suffered the loss of a child, a marraige, heroin AND alchohol addiction, and so sure, just having it together enough to pick out great songs like the JJ Cale and Marley covers was enough for me to give him a pass, but then digging into albums, even into the aforementioned "There's One In Every Crowd" has gems with some meaningful lyrics inside. "Make It Through Today" though rather childlike in its simplicity is rather revealing coming from a man dealing with all that, at that time.

Mike

Originally Posted by couchgrouch
I thought it was universally acknowledged Clapton's career tanked after Layla. I myself believed it for forty years.

Then...

...I was criticized by Alyssa Milano on Twitter. Now I've completely reversed my earlier position. I just went to Zia's Used Records in Tucson and bought em all, including the Phil Collins years. They had many used copies, all going for a buck and change. I'm in the process of doxxing their employees for under valuing Clapton's later day classics.

Ps...I don't dare say Rod Stewart's songwriting took a dive after Atlantic Crossing...the pitchforks would really come out if I said I'm prouder of Calico Sundown than I would've been of Some Guys Have All the Luck...



You can have whatever opinion you like about any artist. But it's just an opinion

Every major artists career has "tanked". Paul McCartney, Stones haven't made a great album in decades inmo. Elton, Billy Joel, Bruce, Mellencamp. Last great Tom Petty album was Wild Flowers.We should be so lucky to be able to tank

Lets face it, making great music is an extrordinary thing. Most of us are lucky to have ONE GREAT song, let alone decades of career.

Im a fan of Rod Stewart. I wasn't a big fan of Some guys have all the luck, but it was ok. I thought Young Turks was primo. He went pop and since pop is usually bubble gum that's what it ends up sounding like

My only question to you is why does it please you so much to cut an artist down?

Clapton is a living legend. And he can still out write any of us on this forum, although I cant prove that unless he shows up.

Why not give credit for the greats.

Its just the way you express things, as if you are superior to these living legends.

Calico Sundown is a solid song, its by no means a great song. You can feel your part in it is, but its just not going to stand up with classic songs of all time.

Im not sure how you listen to music, do you read the lyrics instead of listening? its only a great song if the lyric has extensive content?

Some guys have all the luck while a much more commercially viable song than your calico sundown, can not really be compared to yours. You don't write that kind of stuff.


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/10/19 04:46 PM.
#1153958 - 06/10/19 04:51 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Wonderful Tonight used to make me cringe, but revisionist that I am, I now love it for it's simplicity and straightforwardness. The first verse reads like the first paragraph of a Raymond Carver short story, told so matter-of-fact-ly, and though the bridge is still kinda Hallmark-y to me, I love the earnestness of it all. This is something to learn from Clapton. If you detect shmaltz in your song, then consider doubling down and making everything as earnest as can be. The guitar hook is simple, the song's tone practically sacred..and it works for me.

Clapton's had a tough life and he's survived, and deepness has always been a criticism of his work, but FD's pointed out a gem with his ode to his dad, only matched by Guy Clark's "The Randall Knife" which makes me cry whenever I hear it.

Townes Van Zandt's life, it seems, had no real tragedy except that which he brought upon himself, but wrote deeper songs on the average, but was not unlike Jim Morrison in that he drank and drank to get into that space and it finally killed him. If there were demons in his past, they are buried very deeply. He was a kind of artistic knight who believed in the Rimbaudian "systematic derangement of the senses" in order to capture a nugget of truth

Whereas Clapton's deepest heart may have "shut down" in the Seventies, having suffered the loss of a child, a marraige, heroin AND alchohol addiction, and so sure, just having it together enough to pick out great songs like the JJ Cale and Marley covers was enough for me to give him a pass, but then digging into albums, even into the aforementioned "There's One In Every Crowd" has gems with some meaningful lyrics inside. "Make It Through Today" though rather childlike in its simplicity is rather revealing coming from a man dealing with all that, at that time.

Mike


Yes what makes Wonderful Tonight a timeless classic is its simplicity. Its hard to write something simple. That's why some marginal musicians make a lot of money and great ones don't. Something so simple, a couple of notes in a particular pattern

And credit Clapton for that, not needing to solo all over it and knowing how important that melody was.

It's a timeless message, tender moment when a woman helps a man with his demons. Taking the car keys while drunk is still relavent all these years later

Far as the blues, they say you cant really play it without living it, Clapton clearly did

#1153959 - 06/10/19 05:47 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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FD,

For the record, you lumped me in with Couch's comments in the post before last and I hope you see that I am not agreeing with him about Clapton at all?

Couch is using sarcasm, first of all, and I'm being sincere. I hope you can at least see that.

Secondly, I'm agreeing with you about the song you're talking about when I say Clapton's song to his dad is a "gem." I also point out another song of Clapton's that belies the critical consensus of him being a shallow writer. I did that because I do NOT share that opinion. I hope you can see that.

Thirdly, Clapton HAS had a hard life, and if anything, I'm a kind of an "apologist" for why he may not be the deepest most soul-searching song-writer in the world, and find merit to his work regardless. smile

Peace,

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 06/10/19 05:51 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1153960 - 06/10/19 06:08 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Yeah, I was joking. But that's irrelevant now. It looks like FD etc are gonna bring John Dean in to testify to their point of view.

I maintain what I originally said to be true...knowledge of musical theory is only one ingredient to writing good songs.
Which is why Carl Radle, Delaney and Bonnie, Ginger Baker, Keith Relf and many, many others Clapton was associated with over the past 50 years aren't consistently strong songwriters. They don't have the talent for it. Clapton's come up with a few. Wow.

And FD, they say a person's influence can be measured by the lengths others go to discredit him. Watching you chase me around JPF, trying to disprove my posts amuses me. You're a clown.

If you live another hundred years, Calico Sundown will remain beyond your reach. I'm proud of it AND it got me on the Americana charts with both Ry Cooder and Chris Hillman. Not bad for a guy without a single shred of musical or lyrical training. Plus, I drive wanks like you crazy.

It's small compensation but it's something.

#1153962 - 06/10/19 07:30 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: couchgrouch]  
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[quote=couchgrouch]

Lets break down this bozos thoughts

"Yeah, I was joking. But that's irrelevant now"

You do come up with some good ones there. Must be that lyric talent.

"I maintain what I originally said to be true...knowledge of musical theory is only one ingredient to writing good songs."

You always do maintain it, you never give consideration to another point of view. Musical theory has more to do with scoring and composing, than it does songwriting. Your point is understood, but you're talking about composing simple songs and melody. That training comes in handy with more complex musical pieces. You dont even need to know how to play an instrument to write a simple melody. Its less about music and more about capturing attention and hook creation."

"And FD, they say a person's influence can be measured by the lengths others go to discredit him. Watching you chase me around JPF, trying to disprove my posts amuses me. You're a clown."

Nobody has to chase you around JPF, you dolt. You're here all the time, it's the only place you can go. How does somebody chase you? From the lyric section to general comments?, nobody has to look far to see your hard head all over here.

"If you live another hundred years, Calico Sundown will remain beyond your reach. I'm proud of it AND it got me on the Americana charts with both Ry Cooder and Chris Hillman. Not bad for a guy without a single shred of musical or lyrical training. Plus, I drive wanks like you crazy."

It's not a very striking song. Melody is kind of blah, but in fairness that style is not my cup of tea. Sometimes it's what the song makes you feel, I dont feel anything, thats not spite, its the truth. You can write, you just havent written a song that knocks me out, suite 16 was good, your co-writer on that was great.

If I live to be 100.... I dont want to surpass Calico Sundown, i actually chuckled while writing this, what the hell use would I have trying to match that?

BTW? Arent Ry Cooder and Chris Hillman washed up and havent they tanked? Oh wait, that's different it involves me!

Look I hope you find success, you worked hard at it, and yes as a lyric only person you have done extremely well.


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/10/19 07:34 PM.
#1153963 - 06/10/19 07:37 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
FD,

For the record, you lumped me in with Couch's comments in the post before last and I hope you see that I am not agreeing with him about Clapton at all?

Couch is using sarcasm, first of all, and I'm being sincere. I hope you can at least see that.

Secondly, I'm agreeing with you about the song you're talking about when I say Clapton's song to his dad is a "gem." I also point out another song of Clapton's that belies the critical consensus of him being a shallow writer. I did that because I do NOT share that opinion. I hope you can see that.

Thirdly, Clapton HAS had a hard life, and if anything, I'm a kind of an "apologist" for why he may not be the deepest most soul-searching song-writer in the world, and find merit to his work regardless. smile

Peace,

Mike


Yes, I understood you weren't slamming Clapton. It seemed liked you hit the nail on the head about Wonderful Tonight, not sure where I lumped...

#1153965 - 06/10/19 10:45 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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FD,

In the thread that you start by saying "You can have whatever opinion you like about any artist. But it's just an opinion," you put both Rob's last post and mine as quotes in that post of yours, so it seemed like an intentional thing and that you were rebutting me as well as Rob, but you seemed genuinely confused in your last post ("not sure where I lumped..") so I'll just chalk it up to just a little absent mindedness on your part..IOW, no big..

So is THAT what's going on? This is an extended RR vs EC fight to the death? Come on guys, we're all at least in our mid-fifties, right?

Aren't they apples and oranges? Blues Rock/Rock vs Roots Rock/Americana? Both the best at what they did! Even if you tried sorting it out by deciding on how to assign a numerical value to each of their songs..wouldn't it start to feel silly and pointless? Can't they both be great at what they did? Both have a small handful of songs that will last from generation to generation.

The irony here is that if both Clapton and Robertson were here participating in this thread, I'm sure Clapton would have the humility to agree with Couch and Robertson to agree with FD, but that says more about their character and the kind of character that drives most truly successful people: they are classy enough to have and show some humility in the face of God and good fortune.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 06/10/19 11:05 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1153966 - 06/10/19 10:53 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
Yeah, I was joking. But that's irrelevant now. It looks like FD etc are gonna bring John Dean in to testify to their point of view.

I maintain what I originally said to be true...knowledge of musical theory is only one ingredient to writing good songs.
Which is why Carl Radle, Delaney and Bonnie, Ginger Baker, Keith Relf and many, many others Clapton was associated with over the past 50 years aren't consistently strong songwriters. They don't have the talent for it. Clapton's come up with a few. Wow.

And FD, they say a person's influence can be measured by the lengths others go to discredit him. Watching you chase me around JPF, trying to disprove my posts amuses me. You're a clown.

If you live another hundred years, Calico Sundown will remain beyond your reach. I'm proud of it AND it got me on the Americana charts with both Ry Cooder and Chris Hillman. Not bad for a guy without a single shred of musical or lyrical training. Plus, I drive wanks like you crazy.

It's small compensation but it's something.




Congrats on those cuts, man. That's really cool.


Regards,


Bob

#1153967 - 06/11/19 12:06 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Hey Couch, where can I hear Ry Cooder performing that song? It would be neat to hear it. I searched the web and Spotify and Apple Music and can't find it anywhere.

#1153974 - 06/11/19 10:12 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
FD,

In the thread that you start by saying "You can have whatever opinion you like about any artist. But it's just an opinion," you put both Rob's last post and mine as quotes in that post of yours, so it seemed like an intentional thing and that you were rebutting me as well as Rob, but you seemed genuinely confused in your last post ("not sure where I lumped..") so I'll just chalk it up to just a little absent mindedness on your part..IOW, no big..

So is THAT what's going on? This is an extended RR vs EC fight to the death? Come on guys, we're all at least in our mid-fifties, right?

Aren't they apples and oranges? Blues Rock/Rock vs Roots Rock/Americana? Both the best at what they did! Even if you tried sorting it out by deciding on how to assign a numerical value to each of their songs..wouldn't it start to feel silly and pointless? Can't they both be great at what they did? Both have a small handful of songs that will last from generation to generation.

The irony here is that if both Clapton and Robertson were here participating in this thread, I'm sure Clapton would have the humility to agree with Couch and Robertson to agree with FD, but that says more about their character and the kind of character that drives most truly successful people: they are classy enough to have and show some humility in the face of God and good fortune.

Mike


I see what happened, the quote I made had both your quote and couch when the opinion comment was meant for couch. Not sure how that happened.

Well humility or lack thereof is the cause of most of these rifts.




Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/11/19 10:15 AM.
#1153985 - 06/11/19 03:10 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Well,
Usually if you want to hear some song you can Google it adding youtube and if it is posted you can usually listen to it. Practically every song that was ever released is on youtube if it was by a major artist.


Ray E. Strode
#1153990 - 06/11/19 08:45 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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I saw this thread had continued and did not have the good judgement to leave it alone.

Robert,

I saw your credits for the Calico Sundown song and could not find it by Ry Cooder or Chris HIllman, but by Cameron Earnshaw.
Below are the lyrics. In all seriousness, please explain to me what it is about those lyrics that makes them great.

Thanks

Martin


Well, I walk out when the day is done
And I hitch my heartache to the sun
Time will fingerpaint the edge of town
In a fading calico sundown

My true love showed me what sadness means
When my foolish heart ignored her dreams
Cos I watched her twilight train leave town
Heading for a calico sundown

She had ruby lips and golden hair
A deep blue ribbon she'd always wear
Now I see those colors in the evening chill
My teardrops burned, they're burning still
The sun returns but she never will
No, my lover never will

Maybe if I'd seen her lonely eyes
Then she wouldn't haunt the western skies
Cos her memory is reflected now
In another calico sundown

She had ruby lips and golden hair
A deep blue sun dress she'd always wear
Now I see those colors in the evening chill
My teardrops burned, they're burning still
The sun returns but she never will
No, my lover never will

Time will fingerpaint the edge of town
In a fading calico sundown...
In a fading calico sundown...

2011 by Robert George & Cameron Earnshaw

#1153993 - 06/12/19 01:49 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
cmon EC, give someone else a chance.... did you hear somebody saying you couldn't write? And then you say it in so few words, Sorry for doubting you EC!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxPj3GAYYZ0

Tears In Heaven
Eric Clapton

Would you know my name
If I saw you in heaven?
Would it be the same
If I saw you in heaven?
I must be strong and carry on
'Cause I know I don't belong here in heaven

Would you hold my hand
If I saw you in heaven?
Would you help me stand
If I saw you in heaven?
I'll find my way through night and day
'Cause I know I just can't stay here in heaven

Time can bring you down, time can bend your knees
Time can break your heart, have you begging please, begging please
Beyond the door there's peace I'm sure
And I know there'll be no more tears in heaven

Would you know my name
If I saw you in heaven?
Would it be the same
If I saw you in heaven?
I must be strong and carry on
'Cause I know I don't belong here in heaven


Yeah this lame commercial grab off the heinous death of his son made me sick for more reasons than just the terrible lyrics. It reminds me of the similarly garbage Grammy "Song of the Year" winning lyrics sung by Nora Jones. Ack.


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
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#1154004 - 06/12/19 10:48 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Guys he never said it was cut by Ry Cooder, he said his recording of his song was on the same Americana Chart online as Ry Cooder.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/12/19 11:23 AM.
#1154005 - 06/12/19 10:54 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Brian Austin Whitney]  
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Originally Posted by Brian Austin Whitney
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
cmon EC, give someone else a chance.... did you hear somebody saying you couldn't write? And then you say it in so few words, Sorry for doubting you EC!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxPj3GAYYZ0

Tears In Heaven
Eric Clapton

Would you know my name
If I saw you in heaven?
Would it be the same
If I saw you in heaven?
I must be strong and carry on
'Cause I know I don't belong here in heaven

Would you hold my hand
If I saw you in heaven?
Would you help me stand
If I saw you in heaven?
I'll find my way through night and day
'Cause I know I just can't stay here in heaven

Time can bring you down, time can bend your knees
Time can break your heart, have you begging please, begging please
Beyond the door there's peace I'm sure
And I know there'll be no more tears in heaven

Would you know my name
If I saw you in heaven?
Would it be the same
If I saw you in heaven?
I must be strong and carry on
'Cause I know I don't belong here in heaven


Yeah this lame commercial grab off the heinous death of his son made me sick for more reasons than just the terrible lyrics. It reminds me of the similarly garbage Grammy "Song of the Year" winning lyrics sung by Nora Jones. Ack.


Well as a person, I dont know him, I cant judge him, all I can do is speculate. There was alot of things there, he stole George Harrisons wife, He apparently had some racism in him years ago as well.

I dont think those are terrible lyrics. Simplicity is not terrible, in fact more skillful than something more complex. Some folks don't realize that economy in lyrics is everything.

Absolutely gorgeous melody, beautiful music, emotional. If it exploits his son, that's a different story. If we didnt know anything about his son, we would view the song differently.



Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/12/19 11:24 AM.
#1154006 - 06/12/19 10:54 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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"Tears In Heaven" moves me. People love to loathe it. but it's a beautiful song that moves me.

#1154008 - 06/12/19 11:13 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
"Tears In Heaven" moves me. People love to loathe it. but it's a beautiful song that moves me.


I agree. That's what songs try to do, move you. It moved me as well, when I saw his MTV unplugged version, it did it for me.

I think we focus too much on the brick and mortar of songs and forget what the purpose of it is.

I'm with ya, great song.

#1154009 - 06/12/19 11:53 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Guys he never said it was cut by Ry Cooder, he said his recording of his song was on the same Americana Chart online as Ry Cooder.



Would not be the inference of the vast majority of people. I was in the same football stadium with Peyton Manning once.

#1154010 - 06/12/19 11:57 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Guys he never said it was cut by Ry Cooder, he said his recording of his song was on the same Americana Chart online as Ry Cooder.



Would not be the inference of the vast majority of people. I was in the same football stadium with Peyton Manning once.


Loll. Hey at this level all accolades are excepted, id be pretty excited if I was on the same chart as say, Tom Petty. But it would make Tom Petty look kinda bad being on the same chart as me....

#1154011 - 06/12/19 12:39 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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FD,


Be careful over-generalizing about lyric writing re: "Some folks don't realize that economy in lyrics is everything." Lyric writing is not golfing!

There are a myriad of ways to approach a lyric. If you grew up with Kerouac and Be-Bop in your head, then you might hear more syllables, just naturally, per line. Joni Mitchell for instance.

I think it's because great songs can come in all shapes and sizes that makes them even greater than they would be if they all had the same shapes and sizes..

*********************************************************************************
Brian,

I can understand why some artists turn off their Twitter feed and never read what people think about their stuff. You can feel battered around like a ping pong ball!

So EC gets criticized for not being very deep, by the critics, then he tries to face the death of his son by writing about it, and then WHAM! He's plundering his son's tragic death for the almighty dollar.

Well, I suppose that's one way to look at it.

But aren't we supposed to write what we know? And make it personal? And from that to the universal?

I don'r know..look at it this way..

EC wasn't a song poet like Dylan or Cohen or Van Morrison and he knew it. Probably felt pressure to try to dig deeper. Then when he does, many slam him for it!

ANyway, all that matters is "does it move you?" And it does me..

I cannot look into the soul of EC and know his motives for writing the song like some seem to be able to do, but me? I doubt his motives were to make money. I imagine it was a catharsis and a way to have a little closure on a most tragic incident.

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 06/12/19 12:49 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1154014 - 06/12/19 01:19 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Regarding Tears in Heaven...
I've read over the years where some people think that Clapton was just an empty guitar machine who used drugs and people easily and meaninglessly discarded the later. Some people went on to say that he considered Offspring incidental to the lifestyle of a rockstar. Those same people would say that his actual feelings weren't all that profound, it was essentially just using his offsprings death as something to write about and get on the radio.
Other people would write that he meant every word of it profoundly. Other people would write that he meant every word of it but was incapable of being profound.
The truth is probably a hybrid

#1154017 - 06/12/19 04:49 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
FD,


Be careful over-generalizing about lyric writing re: "Some folks don't realize that economy in lyrics is everything." Lyric writing is not golfing!

There are a myriad of ways to approach a lyric. If you grew up with Kerouac and Be-Bop in your head, then you might hear more syllables, just naturally, per line. Joni Mitchell for instance.

I think it's because great songs can come in all shapes and sizes that makes them even greater than they would be if they all had the same shapes and sizes..

*********************************************************************************
Brian,

I can understand why some artists turn off their Twitter feed and never read what people think about their stuff. You can feel battered around like a ping pong ball!

So EC gets criticized for not being very deep, by the critics, then he tries to face the death of his son by writing about it, and then WHAM! He's plundering his son's tragic death for the almighty dollar.

Well, I suppose that's one way to look at it.

But aren't we supposed to write what we know? And make it personal? And from that to the universal?

I don'r know..look at it this way..

EC wasn't a song poet like Dylan or Cohen or Van Morrison and he knew it. Probably felt pressure to try to dig deeper. Then when he does, many slam him for it!

ANyway, all that matters is "does it move you?" And it does me..

I cannot look into the soul of EC and know his motives for writing the song like some seem to be able to do, but me? I doubt his motives were to make money. I imagine it was a catharsis and a way to have a little closure on a most tragic incident.

Mike


inmho

In regards to pop music, economy is vital. Ask many great lyricist/songwriter what the key to a great pop song is. "saying as much as possible with as few words as possible" and you do it with melody with lyric. And accepting that a song comes in different shapes and sizes, shouldn't diminish the smaller shape and sizes.

Couldnt we be blasting "Obla Di Obla Da" or "I wanna hold your hand. Or "she loves you" was anything else needed than what we got there? I dont believe so

Music is an open book, somebody's comment about there being two kinds of music, good and bad... I dont buy that. I think there are many different kinds of good and bad and many levels. You mentioned Joni Mitchell, there's Joni Mitchell good, and there's Taylor Swift good.




Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/12/19 04:52 PM.
#1154018 - 06/12/19 04:50 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Regarding Tears in Heaven...
I've read over the years where some people think that Clapton was just an empty guitar machine who used drugs and people easily and meaninglessly discarded the later. Some people went on to say that he considered Offspring incidental to the lifestyle of a rockstar. Those same people would say that his actual feelings weren't all that profound, it was essentially just using his offsprings death as something to write about and get on the radio.
Other people would write that he meant every word of it profoundly. Other people would write that he meant every word of it but was incapable of being profound.
The truth is probably a hybrid


But he was extremely profound, he moved millions of listeners. You can do with with melody and music too.

#1154020 - 06/12/19 04:55 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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No argument.

I still don't know what Sunshine of Your Love is about. But it could be about anything and still compelling because of the sound

#1154024 - 06/12/19 05:26 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio



inmho





FD,

Thanks, in all sincerity, for making me smile. smile

You are probably right, especially when talking about ballads..but you know as well as I, as soon as trends become rules, there's already innovators trying to break them. Such is the history of music.

Joni's long lines come mostly from a jazz/folk hybrid. But with hip-hop and rap especially, I don't think lyrical economy is important in anything but perhaps a small percentage of ballads. Much of the hip-hop I've heard recently has long ass vocal lines, usually sung with an inner-rhythmic hook to give them propulsion.

****************************

I'll tell you the one part of one EC song I can't stand, and it's the second half of Layla, which gets attributed to his drummer at the time, I think. It just drags on and on, for me. The bridge of that second part is especially boring for me. It's a chord progression that's so predictable that I dare anyone to focus on it without their mind's wandering. EC seems lost with it too, just adding some background tones and then doubling the piano melody at times..Some songs that are really two or more songs, joined at the hip, are fun, like Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey, but I can do without hearing the second half of Layla ever again.

Phew..got that off my chest.. wink

Mike




Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 06/12/19 05:30 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1154029 - 06/12/19 07:23 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Mike

Google
Rita Coolidge,Layla,Time.

It appears to me that Jim Gordon and Clapton stole the piano passage from her and tacked it on to Layla. She has a YouTube interview about it. It's persuasive.

Marty

#1154030 - 06/12/19 08:03 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Holy crap! That would be an open-shut lawsuit!

In the interview I saw, she says she played it for Clapton, but then when I read a few articles, the majority claimed that Jim Gordon was her ex-boyfriend and knew of the song "Time" and presented the piano part to EC as if it was his. Of course, I'd rather believe this story.

Can Ms. Coolidge be remembering incorrectly? Why doesn't she file a lawsuit?

Robert Stigwood saying "what are you going to do? You're just a girl.." Awful human being; makes me sick.

It was good seeing Ms. Coolidge. Still elegant and graceful as can be. And seemingly not very bitter, considering..

Mike

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 06/12/19 08:08 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1154032 - 06/12/19 08:51 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Holy crap! That would be an open-shut lawsuit!

In the interview I saw, she says she played it for Clapton, but then when I read a few articles, the majority claimed that Jim Gordon was her ex-boyfriend and knew of the song "Time" and presented the piano part to EC as if it was his. Of course, I'd rather believe this story.

Can Ms. Coolidge be remembering incorrectly? Why doesn't she file a lawsuit?

Robert Stigwood saying "what are you going to do? You're just a girl.." Awful human being; makes me sick.

It was good seeing Ms. Coolidge. Still elegant and graceful as can be. And seemingly not very bitter, considering..

Mike



The interview that I saw presented it as if Gordon heard her play it and presented it to Clapton as his and took full credit for it.
An excerpt from her 2016 book said that she and Gordon composed it and played it for Clapton, and then it was used in Layla and she was shut out of the credits.
I got the impression from watching her that she looked at the risks versus rewards of a full-on challenge and decided it was not in her best interest to call an icon such as Clapton...a thief....even if he was.

Wretched stuff. I believe her.

#1154041 - 06/13/19 08:14 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Regarding Tears in Heaven...
I've read over the years where some people think that Clapton was just an empty guitar machine who used drugs and people easily and meaninglessly discarded the later. Some people went on to say that he considered Offspring incidental to the lifestyle of a rockstar. Those same people would say that his actual feelings weren't all that profound, it was essentially just using his offsprings death as something to write about and get on the radio.
Other people would write that he meant every word of it profoundly. Other people would write that he meant every word of it but was incapable of being profound.
The truth is probably a hybrid


But he was extremely profound, he moved millions of listeners. You can do with with melody and music too.


FD

Following up to that. One point of view could be that the profoundness of the song derived from the real life circumstance that a parent lost a child. But given that, Clapton's lyrical description of his pain was not very profound at all.

And you think...?

#1154050 - 06/13/19 10:27 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio



inmho





FD,

Thanks, in all sincerity, for making me smile. smile

You are probably right, especially when talking about ballads..but you know as well as I, as soon as trends become rules, there's already innovators trying to break them. Such is the history of music.

Joni's long lines come mostly from a jazz/folk hybrid. But with hip-hop and rap especially, I don't think lyrical economy is important in anything but perhaps a small percentage of ballads. Much of the hip-hop I've heard recently has long ass vocal lines, usually sung with an inner-rhythmic hook to give them propulsion.

****************************

I'll tell you the one part of one EC song I can't stand, and it's the second half of Layla, which gets attributed to his drummer at the time, I think. It just drags on and on, for me. The bridge of that second part is especially boring for me. It's a chord progression that's so predictable that I dare anyone to focus on it without their mind's wandering. EC seems lost with it too, just adding some background tones and then doubling the piano melody at times..Some songs that are really two or more songs, joined at the hip, are fun, like Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey, but I can do without hearing the second half of Layla ever again.

Phew..got that off my chest.. wink

Mike





Well Mike, I think that the real skill in lyric writing is doing a lot with little. It's probably not a factual thing, just opinions, but ive heard and read some successful songwriters saying this.

I think it's because of melody. If you want to write memorably melodies that stick in the head, you cant pile in too many words because then the melody weakens. So, especially in pop music, you don't get a lot of words to play with. Listen to masters like Smokey Robinson, a lot of times lines like "Tears of a Clown" or "Tracks of My Tears" those few words speak volumes. You don't need much more lyric because those ideas are so profund and thought provoking, without taking up much space. That's amazing lyrical talent inmho.

Then there's the art of telling a story very succinctly. I read an article about The Boss' Born In The USA. And they broke it down line by line, and showed how he would write a line and anybody listening knows the whole story of what hes talking about in one line.

[Verse 3]
Come back home to the refinery
Hiring man says "Son if it was up to me"
(there are entire books about how when the Vets came home there were no jobs waiting for them, but he does it in two lines)

Went down to see my V.A. man
He said "Son, don't you understand" (Ditto for how the Veterans Adminsitration handled the vets)

Most of us would need more words, but he didn't.

Its kind of like telling a bigger story with less words



Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/13/19 10:29 AM.
#1154051 - 06/13/19 10:38 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Regarding Tears in Heaven...
I've read over the years where some people think that Clapton was just an empty guitar machine who used drugs and people easily and meaninglessly discarded the later. Some people went on to say that he considered Offspring incidental to the lifestyle of a rockstar. Those same people would say that his actual feelings weren't all that profound, it was essentially just using his offsprings death as something to write about and get on the radio.
Other people would write that he meant every word of it profoundly. Other people would write that he meant every word of it but was incapable of being profound.
The truth is probably a hybrid


But he was extremely profound, he moved millions of listeners. You can do with with melody and music too.


FD

Following up to that. One point of view could be that the profoundness of the song derived from the real life circumstance that a parent lost a child. But given that, Clapton's lyrical description of his pain was not very profound at all.

And you think...?


Well, I hear the pain in the music and his voice. Is Clapton a great lyricist? I don't think so, but hes still a better lyricist than a lot of people here, and he's one of these guys that came up as a jammer. You know, there isn't much to raw blues songs, they are made for jamming. But he adapted, reinvented himself numerous times, became a writer, became a singer, became an artist, most people would be happy with being a great jammer.

But lets say the words were different to "Tears in Heaven" would the song have the same impact on the listener? We don't know

But I bet if one of us rewrote the lyrics, it may fall short. I think Tears in Heaven was a great hook too


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/13/19 10:39 AM.
#1154058 - 06/13/19 11:10 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
FLyric writing is not golfing!

There are a myriad of ways to approach a lyric. If you grew up with Kerouac and Be-Bop in your head, then you might hear more syllables, just naturally, per line. Joni Mitchell for instance.

I think it's because great songs can come in all shapes and sizes that makes them even greater than they would be if they all had the same shapes and sizes..


I very much agree. There is a lot of confusion of terms in our community, and one of them is when we call a lyric a song. A lyric, like a libretto, services a melody. Economy is not the goal, but rather the matching of words to melodytotally different function. Ideally the lyric flows naturally without unnecessary information, but adding an "oh" or a "yes" before "I get by with a little help from my friends" is melodically demanded, and the unnecessary oh and yes are welcome additions, because music. Terse writing isn't always better writing, especially in lyrics. Joni Mitchell...she just blew my mind last night as I watched Rolling Thunder Revue: A Bob Dylan Story by Martin Scorsese on Netflix. There is a scene at a party at Gordon Lightfoot's house where there is an epic jam, Bob Dylan, Gordon Lightfoot, Roger McGuinn, Mick Ronson, and Joni Mitchell starts teaching them "Coyote" which she'd just written on the tour about a random fling with Sam Shepard...just amazing. Her lyrics are designed to ramble like a brook, just beautifully matched to her melody. The end result of a lyric is a melody that sings pictures and stories. Economy of purpose is good, and a perfect selection of phrases, weighted to the rhythm of the melody is necessary. It sure is weird doing it backwards...to write a lyric and THEN find music...it always feels a bit paler as a concept than the ones that were created together, or when the music presented itself first. I guess it's because people don't read songs.

#1154059 - 06/13/19 11:16 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
FLyric writing is not golfing!

There are a myriad of ways to approach a lyric. If you grew up with Kerouac and Be-Bop in your head, then you might hear more syllables, just naturally, per line. Joni Mitchell for instance.

I think it's because great songs can come in all shapes and sizes that makes them even greater than they would be if they all had the same shapes and sizes..


I very much agree. There is a lot of confusion of terms in our community, and one of them is when we call a lyric a song. A lyric, like a libretto, services a melody. Economy is not the goal, but rather the matching of words to melodytotally different function. Ideally the lyric flows naturally without unnecessary information, but adding an "oh" or a "yes" before "I get by with a little help from my friends" is melodically demanded, and the unnecessary oh and yes are welcome additions, because music. Terse writing isn't always better writing, especially in lyrics. Joni Mitchell...she just blew my mind last night as I watched Rolling Thunder Revue: A Bob Dylan Story by Martin Scorsese on Netflix. There is a scene at a party at Gordon Lightfoot's house where there is an epic jam, Bob Dylan, Gordon Lightfoot, Roger McGuinn, Mick Ronson, and Joni Mitchell starts teaching them "Coyote" which she'd just written on the tour about a random fling with Sam Shepard...just amazing. Her lyrics are designed to ramble like a brook, just beautifully matched to her melody. The end result of a lyric is a melody that sings pictures and stories. Economy of purpose is good, and a perfect selection of phrases, weighted to the rhythm of the melody is necessary. It sure is weird doing it backwards...to write a lyric and THEN find music...it always feels a bit paler as a concept than the ones that were created together, or when the music presented itself first. I guess it's because people don't read songs.


But I dont think economy is something you sit and consciously try for. "Oh i better be more economical here" it's just the result that can be observed.

Name a hit song that didnt have some element of lyrical economy? Devil Went Down To Georgia, perhaps, but thats country.

Other genres like folk and old country were designed for more lyrical content. But Economy is in everything the Beatles ever wrote.

#1154060 - 06/13/19 11:19 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Rocky Racoon?

I read the news today?

#1154061 - 06/13/19 11:29 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Rocky Racoon?

I read the news today?



We Can Work It Out

here's a lyric nobody would think much of. Classic Classic memorable song.

Try to see it my way,
Do I have to keep on talking till I can't go on?
While you see it your way,
Run the risk of knowing that our love may soon be gone.

We can work it out,
We can work it out.

Think of what you're saying.
You can get it wrong and still you think that it's alright.
Think of what I'm saying,
We can work it out and get it straight, or say good night.

We can work it out,
We can work it out.

Life is very short, and there's no time
For fussing and fighting, my friend.
I have always thought that it's a crime,
So I will ask you once again.

Try to see it my way,
Only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong.
While you see it your way
There's a chance that we may fall apart before too long.

We can work it out,
We can work it out.

Life is very short, and there's no time
For fussing and fighting, my friend.
I have always thought that it's a crime,
So I will ask you once again.
Try to see it my way,
Only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong.
While you see it your way
There's a chance that we may fall apart before too long.
We can work it out,
We can work it out.

#1154063 - 06/13/19 11:45 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio

But I dont think economy is something you sit and consciously try for. "Oh i better be more economical here" it's just the result that can be observed.

Name a hit song that didnt have some element of lyrical economy? Devil Went Down To Georgia, perhaps, but thats country.

Other genres like folk and old country were designed for more lyrical content. But Economy is in everything the Beatles ever wrote.


Yes, economy of a lyric in a finished release of a song is guaranteedthe words are permanently bonded to the notes, and the very best lyrics are simple, focused and direct.

#1154064 - 06/13/19 11:45 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Just putting my $.02 in. I agree with Fdemetrio. For me, Clapton is not only a great guitarist but also a great songwriter. He is not among my favorite songwriters (Springsteen, Petty and Elvis Costello hold that spot), but he is certainly a great one. Tears in Heaven and My Fathers Eyes are classic father son songs. Although I have to say my favorite father and son songs are Leader of the Band by Dan Fogelberg and Father and Son, by Cat Stevens. Some might call them schmaltzy I don't.

#1154066 - 06/13/19 11:53 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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We Can Work It Out is a truly great song for a lot of reasons.

#1154067 - 06/13/19 11:56 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: GocartMoz]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
We Can Work It Out is a truly great song for a lot of reasons.

Originally Posted by GocartMoz
Just putting my $.02 in. I agree with Fdemetrio. For me, Clapton is not only a great guitarist but also a great songwriter. He is not among my favorite songwriters (Springsteen, Petty and Elvis Costello hold that spot), but he is certainly a great one. Tears in Heaven and My Fathers Eyes are classic father son songs. Although I have to say my favorite father and son songs are Leader of the Band by Dan Fogelberg and Father and Son, by Cat Stevens. Some might call them schmaltzy I don't.


Those are 3 of my top 3 writers as well. Cats in The Cradle gets me every time

#1154068 - 06/13/19 11:57 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
We Can Work It Out is a truly great song for a lot of reasons.


But you have to wonder what reception it would get HERE.

#1154070 - 06/13/19 12:00 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Michael Zaneski Offline
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.
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio


Name a hit song that didnt have some element of lyrical economy? Devil Went Down To Georgia, perhaps, but thats country.



Hot Rod Lincoln wink

Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 06/13/19 12:02 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1154073 - 06/13/19 12:29 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
.
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio


Name a hit song that didnt have some element of lyrical economy? Devil Went Down To Georgia, perhaps, but thats country.



Hot Rod Lincoln wink


I would also suggest Boys are Back In Town by Thin Lizzy has zero lyrical economy but is a killer song imo

#1154074 - 06/13/19 12:35 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Have to say also Blinded by The Light is short on lyrical economy

#1154077 - 06/13/19 12:41 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Also on the Clapton thing. My cover band does Wonderful Tonight, among many other ballads. No song we do is a sure fire way to get people on the dance floor slow dancing, than that tune. Works every time!

#1154084 - 06/13/19 02:08 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
We Can Work It Out is a truly great song for a lot of reasons.


But you have to wonder what reception it would get HERE.



Who knows?

There is a "prone to complain about anything" factor that goes on with forums.
But if you take a snapshot of pop music decades back when the song came out and compare the very pleasing and unusual melody and the clear and exquisitely descriptive lyrics and the seamless coupling of lyrics and melody...it's impossible to not consider it a great song....imo.

Martin

#1154123 - 06/14/19 12:52 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski
FLyric writing is not golfing!

There are a myriad of ways to approach a lyric. If you grew up with Kerouac and Be-Bop in your head, then you might hear more syllables, just naturally, per line. Joni Mitchell for instance.

I think it's because great songs can come in all shapes and sizes that makes them even greater than they would be if they all had the same shapes and sizes..


I very much agree. There is a lot of confusion of terms in our community, and one of them is when we call a lyric a song. A lyric, like a libretto, services a melody. Economy is not the goal, but rather the matching of words to melodytotally different function. Ideally the lyric flows naturally without unnecessary information, but adding an "oh" or a "yes" before "I get by with a little help from my friends" is melodically demanded, and the unnecessary oh and yes are welcome additions, because music. Terse writing isn't always better writing, especially in lyrics. Joni Mitchell...she just blew my mind last night as I watched Rolling Thunder Revue: A Bob Dylan Story by Martin Scorsese on Netflix. There is a scene at a party at Gordon Lightfoot's house where there is an epic jam, Bob Dylan, Gordon Lightfoot, Roger McGuinn, Mick Ronson, and Joni Mitchell starts teaching them "Coyote" which she'd just written on the tour about a random fling with Sam Shepard...just amazing. Her lyrics are designed to ramble like a brook, just beautifully matched to her melody. The end result of a lyric is a melody that sings pictures and stories. Economy of purpose is good, and a perfect selection of phrases, weighted to the rhythm of the melody is necessary. It sure is weird doing it backwards...to write a lyric and THEN find music...it always feels a bit paler as a concept than the ones that were created together, or when the music presented itself first. I guess it's because people don't read songs.


Hi Mark,

What a Holy Grail this movie is. Thanks for pointing me to it!!!

I've heard bits and pieces of these performances on various bootlegs, but all the commentary and background stuff is priceless, and imagine how much fun it was for me after reading in a recent Joni bio the account of teaching McGuinn and Dylan "Coyote" --to actually see that! She gives T-Bone Burnette (I think it's him) the stink-eye at one point, like "what are you playing, dude?" Another funny moment for me was watching Baez seemingly under the influence of Bolivian marching powder, whipping out some dance moves that looked like they were inspired by Rowan and Martin's Laugh-In. And Dylan carefully choosing his words when recalling the event, "I don't know what happened..she was doin' the boogaloo!"

Dylan's another that can hear long lines in his head. "Tangled Up In Blue" creates a tangled web with it's prosody as well as lyrical content.

It was great seeing Ratso, for the first time, as he's been a character in most of Kinky Friedman's detective novels, which I love. He's also apparently a well thought of playwright.

Another doc well worth seeing is the recent Showtime doc called "Eric Clapton: A Life In Twelve Bars" which recounts his horrible childhood, growing up with his grandma, meeting his mom at nine and having her reject him again, him turning to music as a source of salvation, him revering and copying the old blues masters, his torch for Patti Harrison, his drug and alcohol abuse and subsequent racist rant, and laced throughout it all, footage from one of the most technically gifted guitar players to grace the planet. I only wish there was a recounting of him and Pete Townshend seeing (for the first time) Hendrix performing and them turning to each other and saying, "we're done.."

Mike


Last edited by Michael Zaneski; 06/14/19 01:26 PM.

Fate doesn't hang on a wrong or right choice
Fortune depends on the tone of your voice

-The Divine Comedy (Neil Hannon)
from the song "Songs of Love"
from the album "Casanova" (1996)
#1154125 - 06/14/19 02:35 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Michael Zaneski]  
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Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski

Hi Mark,

What a Holy Grail this movie is. Thanks for pointing me to it!!!

I've heard bits and pieces of these performances on various bootlegs, but all the commentary and background stuff is priceless, and imagine how much fun it was for me after reading in a recent Joni bio the account of teaching McGuinn and Dylan "Coyote" --to actually see that! She gives T-Bone Burnette (I think it's him) the stink-eye at one point, like "what are you playing, dude?" Another funny moment for me was watching Baez seemingly under the influence of Bolivian marching powder, whipping out some dance moves that looked like they were inspired by Rowan and Martin's Laugh-In. And Dylan carefully choosing his words when recalling the event, "I don't know what happened..she was doin' the boogaloo!"

Dylan's another that can hear long lines in his head. "Tangled Up In Blue" creates a tangled web with it's prosody as well as lyrical content.

It was great seeing Ratso, for the first time, as he's been a character in most of Kinky Friedman's detective novels, which I love. He's also apparently a well thought of playwright.

Another doc well worth seeing is the recent Showtime doc called "Eric Clapton: A Life In Twelve Bars" which recounts his horrible childhood, growing up with his grandma, meeting his mom at nine and having her reject him again, him turning to music as a source of salvation, him revering and copying the old blues masters, his torch for Patti Harrison, his drug and alcohol abuse and subsequent racist rant, and laced throughout it all, footage from one of the most technically gifted guitar players to grace the planet. I only wish there was a recounting of him and Pete Townshend seeing (for the first time) Hendrix performing and them turning to each other and saying, "we're done.."

Mike



I know! What a flick. Joan Baez was out of her head having fun, on another plane, freaking people out. What a wild one. And Dylan just channeled madness the whole time, often silly, very physical and Neil Young-like when jamming down. What a time. I read Sam Shepard's account long ago, so these images are really unexpectedly jarring to see now.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall at the Rainbow Concert where Townshend got Clapton back on his feet and gigging again. What lives those people lead.

#1154128 - 06/14/19 02:45 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
Originally Posted by Michael Zaneski

Hi Mark,

What a Holy Grail this movie is. Thanks for pointing me to it!!!

I've heard bits and pieces of these performances on various bootlegs, but all the commentary and background stuff is priceless, and imagine how much fun it was for me after reading in a recent Joni bio the account of teaching McGuinn and Dylan "Coyote" --to actually see that! She gives T-Bone Burnette (I think it's him) the stink-eye at one point, like "what are you playing, dude?" Another funny moment for me was watching Baez seemingly under the influence of Bolivian marching powder, whipping out some dance moves that looked like they were inspired by Rowan and Martin's Laugh-In. And Dylan carefully choosing his words when recalling the event, "I don't know what happened..she was doin' the boogaloo!"

Dylan's another that can hear long lines in his head. "Tangled Up In Blue" creates a tangled web with it's prosody as well as lyrical content.

It was great seeing Ratso, for the first time, as he's been a character in most of Kinky Friedman's detective novels, which I love. He's also apparently a well thought of playwright.

Another doc well worth seeing is the recent Showtime doc called "Eric Clapton: A Life In Twelve Bars" which recounts his horrible childhood, growing up with his grandma, meeting his mom at nine and having her reject him again, him turning to music as a source of salvation, him revering and copying the old blues masters, his torch for Patti Harrison, his drug and alcohol abuse and subsequent racist rant, and laced throughout it all, footage from one of the most technically gifted guitar players to grace the planet. I only wish there was a recounting of him and Pete Townshend seeing (for the first time) Hendrix performing and them turning to each other and saying, "we're done.."

Mike



I know! What a flick. Joan Baez was out of her head having fun, on another plane, freaking people out. What a wild one. And Dylan just channeled madness the whole time, often silly, very physical and Neil Young-like when jamming down. What a time. I read Sam Shepard's account long ago, so these images are really unexpectedly jarring to see now.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall at the Rainbow Concert where Townshend got Clapton back on his feet and gigging again. What lives those people lead.


Maybe this would be a common house fly... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewUlF-ka5qE

Always thought this was cool, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpEwAk6U42w

I dont know what Pete was worried about though. He was never under pressure for being a virtuoso guitarist Like Clapton and Page were. But he was clearly one of the best songwriters of all time, and a very VERY underated guitarrist. Listen to the who with headphones you'll see/hear what I mean

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/14/19 02:46 PM.
#1154129 - 06/14/19 02:48 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Martin Lide]  
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Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
We Can Work It Out is a truly great song for a lot of reasons.


But you have to wonder what reception it would get HERE.



Who knows?

There is a "prone to complain about anything" factor that goes on with forums.
But if you take a snapshot of pop music decades back when the song came out and compare the very pleasing and unusual melody and the clear and exquisitely descriptive lyrics and the seamless coupling of lyrics and melody...it's impossible to not consider it a great song....imo.

Martin


hmm, well its possible here. Particularly if it wasnt recorded by The Beatles. If I wrote and recorded it id bet id get 7 replies, with some pats on the back and some nits about how "the lyrics needed more"

#1154130 - 06/14/19 02:51 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: GocartMoz]  
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Originally Posted by GocartMoz
Have to say also Blinded by The Light is short on lyrical economy


I nearly mentioned Blinded, but I realized that alot of the success of the song came because of the manfred manns keyboard parts, and the total revamping of the tune. Effects and slick vocalizing made it a hit,,, that keyboard errrrrERRRRRRRRRR, "the caliope crashed to ground" all those keyboard hooks and the intro

They just made it a classic, Bruce's version I LOVE but it wasnt a hit calibre recording or piece.

But the dense lyrics work for that song it is true.




Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/14/19 02:57 PM.
#1154134 - 06/14/19 07:19 PM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Martin Lide
We Can Work It Out is a truly great song for a lot of reasons.


But you have to wonder what reception it would get HERE.



Who knows?

There is a "prone to complain about anything" factor that goes on with forums.
But if you take a snapshot of pop music decades back when the song came out and compare the very pleasing and unusual melody and the clear and exquisitely descriptive lyrics and the seamless coupling of lyrics and melody...it's impossible to not consider it a great song....imo.

Martin


hmm, well its possible here. Particularly if it wasnt recorded by The Beatles. If I wrote and recorded it id bet id get 7 replies, with some pats on the back and some nits about how "the lyrics needed more"



LOL

Who exactly is the "we" in the song? That's not clear enough.

#1154143 - 06/15/19 12:43 AM Re: Clapton The Songwriter.... [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
"Tears In Heaven" moves me. People love to loathe it. but it's a beautiful song that moves me.


That's why we have freedom of speech which protects people's right to consume and love or hate any music they please. Music will eventually become a target for authoritarians just like all other areas of speech from films to videos to posts on social media.

I agree with the comment that we might feel differently if not for the death of his son. We'll never know. For most people it helps their view on the song, for me it is the opposite. Impossible to know the effect if someone posted this on this message board in obscurity and not about a real event. But as it stands, I think it is one of his worst famous songs. If this was a different artist perhaps one less popular or that is known for sugary songs I wonder how everyone would feel then. I think I'd feel the same.


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