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#1153702 - 06/01/19 05:52 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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Fdemetrio Offline
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Lets add more musicians to the list of guys who can play AND write

Billy Joel
Joe Jackson
Don Henley
Joe Walsh
Jackson Browne
Mark Knopfler

oh theres thousands more

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/05/19 12:00 PM.
#1153705 - 06/01/19 06:38 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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Fdemetrio Offline
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Oh Yeah Delouie, i forgot to mention. These "band Members of Springsteen", have all written great albums. They just dont get press, success and goodness are two different things Delouie









Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/02/19 02:31 PM.
#1153706 - 06/01/19 07:06 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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maccharles Offline
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I hear julian's voice, ice clinking in glass "[naughty word removed]'s sakes boys".

#1153707 - 06/01/19 07:14 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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#1153766 - 06/04/19 03:33 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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Cheyenne Offline
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Writing lyrics only ?? Great idea as long as you understand what makes a hit song

Repetition or Close Repetition , A study of whats known as The Vowel Triangle

SONG FORMS ---- Rhythm--Setting Up -- Shutting Down---Balance - Pace --

Strong Beats and Weak Beats--- it goes on and on ------------

and one of the best books around for teaching all you need to know ------

MANAGING LYRIC STRUCTURE By Pat Pattison

PERSONALLY I can only write SONGS via a Musical Instrument

That way I know where I'm going with the melody from the verses to the Big Hook

The Marriage Of Melody to Lyrics ??? You can teach yourself that via Studying

the best of whats gone on before

Those who are too lazy to learn any of the above, will go to great lengths to tell us

nonsense about why they know different , and you will find they havent event come

close writing a hit song; and probably never willl

Most rush to let us see or hear their latest efforts writing with a has been writer

could get you close , to a decent song No one is looking for copies of other songs




Last edited by Cheyenne; 06/23/19 09:15 AM.

One of the most important principles of songwriting is to remember that a good song is a partnership of many different components, all working together to produce a satisfying musical experience.

In that respect, song components are either enhancing or compromising their combined effects.
#1153791 - 06/04/19 02:39 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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The good news for Country writers is a simple handclap beat on the 2 and 4 is enough to have a hit song with a good vocal and simple guitar. It's all over. I will be posting a link to a video that does a beautiful job of dissecting it all later this week.

Brian


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#1154031 - 06/12/19 08:21 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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well there are lyricist who can't play instruments and musicians that can't put three words together,being great at both would be fantastic and it's done every day but everyone can't do it all.I would rather give my lyric to a real musician than me tinker with BIAB trying to put 3 or for Heaven's help 4 chords together.I would rather send a raw vocal track and let the musician take it from there.Bernie Taupin didn't do bad as just a lyricist.

#1154034 - 06/12/19 10:24 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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"Rolling Eyes....Let me guess YOUR one of the great creative people...am I warm? "

Actually FD, I would have to say yes, In my opinion Couch is a truly great lyricist. some of the best on these boards and some with lines I find amazingly brilliant.


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#1154124 - 06/14/19 02:17 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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Michael LeBlanc Offline
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what i would like to know is why isn't there an "Instrumental Forum" here so "we" lyricists can maybe write something for them.Some of the musicians may be great until it comes to putting words together.Sure you'll get some lame lyrics as we get lame music for our lyrics but something might jive from time to time.I think i've only taken one maybe two instrumentals here and wrote words for them.Not sure if they really actually liked it but it sure was fun for me to write with an awesome piece of music.So let's average it out and you musicians start putting some work out there for the lyricist.

#1154127 - 06/14/19 02:40 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Michael LeBlanc]  
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Fdemetrio Offline
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Originally Posted by Michael LeBlanc
what i would like to know is why isn't there an "Instrumental Forum" here so "we" lyricists can maybe write something for them.Some of the musicians may be great until it comes to putting words together.Sure you'll get some lame lyrics as we get lame music for our lyrics but something might jive from time to time.I think i've only taken one maybe two instrumentals here and wrote words for them.Not sure if they really actually liked it but it sure was fun for me to write with an awesome piece of music.So let's average it out and you musicians start putting some work out there for the lyricist.



Well I think its a great idea. Thing is "instrumentals" take alot of time and work for the musician.

Also alot of lyricists cant write to tracks, because it restricts them. But if done right this kind of thing leads to better songs for the lyricist.

#1154146 - 06/15/19 02:51 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Michael LeBlanc]  
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.

Last edited by DonnaMarilyn; 06/15/19 03:22 AM.

Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.

Life is too important to take seriously.

http://www.reverbnation.com/donnamarilynrichblend




#1154148 - 06/15/19 03:14 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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Instrumental board already exists... it's called the MP3 board. Any MP3 format is welcome there. With lyrics or without.

There are far more lyric only folks than Instrumental only. John Schick would be an example of someone who writes music only and posts there.


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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

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#1154149 - 06/15/19 03:23 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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Originally Posted by Michael LeBlanc
what i would like to know is why isn't there an "Instrumental Forum" here so "we" lyricists can maybe write something for them. Some of the musicians may be great until it comes to putting words together. Sure you'll get some lame lyrics as we get lame music for our lyrics but something might jive from time to time.I think i've only taken one maybe two instrumentals here and wrote words for them.Not sure if they really actually liked it but it sure was fun for me to write with an awesome piece of music.So let's average it out and you musicians start putting some work out there for the lyricist.


A separate thread's not a bad idea, Mike.

Useful for me would be something in between. For example, I often create melodies for my lyrics (and I send the Audacity file to my collaborators), but it's much easier for me to get into a musical groove if I have a backing track to sing against.

I don't mean a full instrumental complete with melody - just a basic track in various genres/time signatures. It wouldn't be used outside the context of me creating a melody over it. It could even be the track (sans melody) of an already completed song, or simply a track for a song idea that's been abandoned. I'm sure composers have plenty of those, just as we lyricists are likely to have a drawer full of half-finished lyrics and still-waiting hook/title ideas. wink

In times past, it was easy to find 'free-to-download' tracks (intended for musicians to jam with), but those days seem to be gone. Everyone now is trying to sell everything they do. I don't mind that so much ($0.99 now and again won't break the bank) - what I hate is that to even be able to listen to some of the tracks you need to accept cookies on the website, which means even more crap spam landing in my email.

Anyway, this is just a thought. Maybe a section that would include random backing tracks for folks like me. Or, if instrumentals are posted specifically for collaboration, maybe someone would jump in to propose a lyric.

I strongly recommend though that composers seeking collaboration - at the very least - provide lyricists with a leadsheet. This makes it much easier to write a lyric for a melody.

Donna


Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.

Life is too important to take seriously.

http://www.reverbnation.com/donnamarilynrichblend




#1154155 - 06/15/19 09:50 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: DonnaMarilyn]  
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Excellent Idea!

#1154157 - 06/15/19 09:55 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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yes,i was thinking of people who are looking for lyrics.Doesn't have to be the finished music,just the bones as to where they want the verses,chorus,bridge maybe,then they can take their music and build around it.The instrumentals on the MP3 board seems to me that that's what they intend it to be,an instrumental.I haven't seen one posted yet asking for lyrics to a certain one.Just a thought.

#1154161 - 06/15/19 10:11 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Michael LeBlanc]  
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Originally Posted by Michael LeBlanc
yes,i was thinking of people who are looking for lyrics.Doesn't have to be the finished music,just the bones as to where they want the verses,chorus,bridge maybe,then they can take their music and build around it.The instrumentals on the MP3 board seems to me that that's what they intend it to be,an instrumental.I haven't seen one posted yet asking for lyrics to a certain one.Just a thought.


I think that's the same thing that has been happening here for a long time. Post a lyric, somebody sees it, and adds music.

I thought you were looking the other way around. Somebody posts a track of a song/instrumental they composed, and the lyricist tries to find a lyric for it, sometimes the melody is tapped out, sometimes it's up to the lyricist to find a melody too.

I do this all the time for my own stuff. The overwhelming majority of songwriters say they write the music first, others say they write both at same time. I think writing them both at same time makes it more authentic, but it's open for debate.

But I havent seen many lyricists who can do much with a music track, cause they dont have the freedom of writing across a page and setting their own rhythm to it....

#1154165 - 06/15/19 10:46 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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FD, I don't think lyricists generally feel limited, especially if the composer has provided a leadsheet - which in my opinion is essential. Iíve worked both with and without leadsheets, and without is a nightmare. I donít do it anymore.

Besides, why would the lyricist be looking to create her/his own rhythm if the melody has already been determined by the composer/vocalist? With a leadsheet (and of course the music), she/he can see exactly which and what kind of notes need to be written to. It's then a matter of finding the right words and creating a consistent/coherent lyric that matches the mood of the music. I feel it's unlikely that a lyricist would be required to write the melody. This is more often the task of the vocalist if not the composer.

Thereís plenty a lyricist can do with a track, because often the composer already knows the theme/storyline he/she wants but needs the lyric to be written by a wordsmith, or needs someone to polish whatever he/she has already written. Iíve just finished a project like that, and have co-written a lot of lyrics that already had a melody.

There are many kinds of collaboration, all of which need to be discussed and decided upon from the beginning.

As I said in my previous post, Iím not after instrumentals & melodies. I can create my own melodies for my lyrics (though I donít always do it wink ). Iíd simply like a few simple backing tracks in different genres and time signatures to sing against so that I can more quickly get a feel for the melody as Iím singing. A backing track kind of Ďjump startsí me. smile Even though that particular track wonít be a part of the resulting song.

I donít agree that music and lyrics need to created at the same time for a song to be authentic. But as you say, itís open to debate. wink No doubt others here will chime in. wink

Donna


Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.

Life is too important to take seriously.

http://www.reverbnation.com/donnamarilynrichblend




#1154170 - 06/15/19 11:58 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: DonnaMarilyn]  
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Originally Posted by DonnaMarilyn
FD, I don't think lyricists generally feel limited, especially if the composer has provided a leadsheet - which in my opinion is essential. Iíve worked both with and without leadsheets, and without is a nightmare. I donít do it anymore.

Besides, why would the lyricist be looking to create her/his own rhythm if the melody has already been determined by the composer/vocalist? With a leadsheet (and of course the music), she/he can see exactly which and what kind of notes need to be written to. It's then a matter of finding the right words and creating a consistent/coherent lyric that matches the mood of the music. I feel it's unlikely that a lyricist would be required to write the melody. This is more often the task of the vocalist if not the composer.

Thereís plenty a lyricist can do with a track, because often the composer already knows the theme/storyline he/she wants but needs the lyric to be written by a wordsmith, or needs someone to polish whatever he/she has already written. Iíve just finished a project like that, and have co-written a lot of lyrics that already had a melody.

There are many kinds of collaboration, all of which need to be discussed and decided upon from the beginning.

As I said in my previous post, Iím not after instrumentals & melodies. I can create my own melodies for my lyrics (though I donít always do it wink ). Iíd simply like a few simple backing tracks in different genres and time signatures to sing against so that I can more quickly get a feel for the melody as Iím singing. A backing track kind of Ďjump startsí me. smile Even though that particular track wonít be a part of the resulting song.

I donít agree that music and lyrics need to created at the same time for a song to be authentic. But as you say, itís open to debate. wink No doubt others here will chime in. wink

Donna


Thing is Donna, a "backing track" wont support just any melody. The melody and backing track need to be harmonically right, meaning that the chords need to fit the melody

I think writing to a track, and moreso writing to an already established melody is tuff sledding for a lyricist. It becomes a bit like putting a puzzle together.... "hmm let me see, I need three sylables in this line, because the melody is playing a triplet, so let me go with "make a wish"

What happens is the content of the lyric starts to get weaker and weaker as you search for ways to fill the words in.


Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/15/19 12:17 PM.
#1154174 - 06/15/19 12:18 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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Ray E. Strode Online content
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Well,
I would suggest someone who writes lyrics only hook up with a Co-Writer who can play an instrument. Many times a set of lyrics look good on paper until you start putting them to music. Many, most Producers only want a lyric sheet and a competent demo. They will do the rest if they are going to use the song.


Ray E. Strode
#1154180 - 06/15/19 01:25 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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FD, for me, the backing track doesnít need to support the melody. I just need the groove in the particular genre. The backing track functions as a kind of metronome but a lot more fun. It absolutely works for me. wink Iíve used this method many, many times. Sure, I can come up with a melody just by singing the words over and over in Audacity until I have something that sounds halfway decent to my ears, but itís much less time consuming with a track to sing over.

I donít disagree with you about writing lyrics to a melody. It can be tough. Thatís why I insist on a leadsheet (and why I rarely write to a melody these days Ė I prefer the other way around). Iím fine once I have a storyline established; then I focus on the crafting and the choice of words in the usual way.

I agree that often lyrics written to a melody can sound clunky and disjointed, and generally need to be very seriously revised. But they can end up being quite nice. I know a lyricist Ė and a good one Ė who, to my astonishment, actually prefers writing to a melody. And her lyrics generally work really well (after a lot of re-writing). I think the key point here is revision.

I find itís much easier to write to a track that doesnít yet have a melody, as long as the composer can indicate exactly where the various sections begin and end. I used to enjoy doing those, especially when the music inspired me, and a storyline emerged quickly. (If I didnít like the music, I declined the request.)


Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.

Life is too important to take seriously.

http://www.reverbnation.com/donnamarilynrichblend




#1154183 - 06/15/19 03:57 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: DonnaMarilyn]  
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Originally Posted by DonnaMarilyn
FD, for me, the backing track doesnít need to support the melody. I just need the groove in the particular genre. The backing track functions as a kind of metronome but a lot more fun. It absolutely works for me. wink Iíve used this method many, many times. Sure, I can come up with a melody just by singing the words over and over in Audacity until I have something that sounds halfway decent to my ears, but itís much less time consuming with a track to sing over.

I donít disagree with you about writing lyrics to a melody. It can be tough. Thatís why I insist on a leadsheet (and why I rarely write to a melody these days Ė I prefer the other way around). Iím fine once I have a storyline established; then I focus on the crafting and the choice of words in the usual way.

I agree that often lyrics written to a melody can sound clunky and disjointed, and generally need to be very seriously revised. But they can end up being quite nice. I know a lyricist Ė and a good one Ė who, to my astonishment, actually prefers writing to a melody. And her lyrics generally work really well (after a lot of re-writing). I think the key point here is revision.

I find itís much easier to write to a track that doesnít yet have a melody, as long as the composer can indicate exactly where the various sections begin and end. I used to enjoy doing those, especially when the music inspired me, and a storyline emerged quickly. (If I didnít like the music, I declined the request.)


A drum machine or sampled beats might work better. As long as you come up with a melody that works i guess all is well.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/15/19 04:02 PM.
#1154184 - 06/15/19 04:27 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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What I do first is make tracks of the melody with chords or sometimes just an improvised melody line with a drum track etc. without vocals or lyrics. Then I try to find prewritten lyrical ideas to go with the instrumental. For me,the lyrics never work with the ideas I have in my head of the melody, arrangement etc.

I have tons and tons of drum tracks with just a piano and synth, sometimes without a structured melody line. Most of the time the melody is built around a drum track and then sits there waiting to be finished. Sometimes I just play a piece without any drums or beats to it with a piano sound.. It usually gets saved to my DAW and sits there until I muster up some more lyrics. Don't like that part. My musical ideas far outweigh my ability to write lyrics. Then I end up putting a not so good lyric to music that would be far more interesting with a better lyric. That's a big problem for us "one man band" creators.

So I guess one can put their instrumentals (finished or unfinished) up on the forum for anybody that needs help making their lyrics come to life. That's a thought!

I admire people that can effortlessly write tons of lyrics. I have a hard time finding something interesting to say.

Jane

#1154186 - 06/15/19 04:56 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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Jane, I admire your musical and vocal talent.

However, I don't know a single lyricist who can write tons of lyrics - good ones - effortlessly. smile Sure, getting a basic idea down can be relatively easy, but afterwards the draft invariably needs a LOT of revision. This can take a great deal of time and effort. 'The art of writing is in the re-writing'.

And it's not so much about having something interesting to say. There are plenty of interesting things to write about. The hard part is saying them in an interesting and skilful manner. wink

Perhaps you could think about asking a lyricist to co-write/revise your own drafts. Or post your lyrics for feedback. You could mention that they already have a melody, and any adjustments would need to be made within those parameters.

Donna


Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.

Life is too important to take seriously.

http://www.reverbnation.com/donnamarilynrichblend




#1154187 - 06/15/19 06:44 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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just for kicks,this is the instrumental by Joe Rogier i found on the MP3 board and set lyrics to it.It was only a one take thing,we didn't venture in rewriting or anything,i just wanted to put some lyrics to a piece of music that struck me.Of course a vocalist is needed but that's the drift i'm getting at with this idea.Who knows what it would have sounded like if we took it to other levels. https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=13191336

#1154188 - 06/15/19 06:52 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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Donna,

I know it takes a lot of skill to write good lyrics. I didn't mean there isn't a lot of effort put in to it (poor choice of words on my part). When the lyrics work, it looks easy to folks but it is not.

Good lyricists like yourself who can take words and make a wonderful story out of them - I think the real skill of writing lyrics is in the "making it interesting part" and the rewriting and rewriting to make it just right - wow the patience involved.

It takes a good vocabulary and a total devotion to the art and I admire someone with that talent.

Jane

#1154194 - 06/16/19 04:19 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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Michael, that turned out really well. The lyrics are simple and straightforward. Lovely music & melody from Joe too. I can understand you feeling drawn to the piece.

(I seem to recall being in contact with Joe several years ago over a possible collaboration. I forget though whether anything resulted. And I lost a lot of music in a computer crash. emo ) )

I remember four or five years ago hearing someone's instrumental track somewhere, and feeling immediately inspired. The words almost began writing themselves while I was listening. I contacted the composer soon after to ask if he'd be up for a collaboration, but - unfortunately for me - someone else had got there first. Sometimes you gotta be quick. wink

Jane, you're right on all counts. smile
Re-writing, patience, a good vocabulary, devotion to the art.

Add to those a good thesaurus (like the Oxford American Writer's Thesaurus), a good dictionary (to build up that vocabulary wink ), a good rhyming dictionary (like The Complete Rhyming Dictionary edited by Clement Wood; online ones are useful too, like RhymeZone, RhymeGenie, or others), and access to books on lyric writing (e.g. Sheila Davis, Rikky Rooksby, Bill Pere, Pat Pattison) or online instruction (e.g. Pat Pattison, Ralph Murphy, and others).

Most important though I think is to know one's own strengths and to focus on those.

For instance, as much as I'd love to be able to play an instrument (and believe me, I've made serious attempts on both guitar and keyboard over the years), it simply is not going to happen. And life at this point is too short for me to learn DAWs or BIAB or GarageBand or what have you. My active creative interests (other than writing lyrics) lie in art and photography.

Where songwriting is concerned, my gift - if you can call it that - is Words. Yours - in abundance - is Music & Vocals.

If words are a problem for you, I strongly recommend you consider turning your drafts (which will already have a melody) over to a lyricist co-writer. smile She/he will apply her/his skills to contribute to yours. smile

End of monologue. laugh


Honour the Earth. Without it, we'd be nowhere.

Life is too important to take seriously.

http://www.reverbnation.com/donnamarilynrichblend




#1154196 - 06/16/19 04:30 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: DonnaMarilyn]  
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Originally Posted by DonnaMarilyn
Originally Posted by Michael LeBlanc
what i would like to know is why isn't there an "Instrumental Forum" here so "we" lyricists can maybe write something for them. Some of the musicians may be great until it comes to putting words together. Sure you'll get some lame lyrics as we get lame music for our lyrics but something might jive from time to time.I think i've only taken one maybe two instrumentals here and wrote words for them.Not sure if they really actually liked it but it sure was fun for me to write with an awesome piece of music.So let's average it out and you musicians start putting some work out there for the lyricist.


A separate thread's not a bad idea, Mike.

Useful for me would be something in between. For example, I often create melodies for my lyrics (and I send the Audacity file to my collaborators), but it's much easier for me to get into a musical groove if I have a backing track to sing against.

I don't mean a full instrumental complete with melody - just a basic track in various genres/time signatures. It wouldn't be used outside the context of me creating a melody over it. It could even be the track (sans melody) of an already completed song, or simply a track for a song idea that's been abandoned. I'm sure composers have plenty of those, just as we lyricists are likely to have a drawer full of half-finished lyrics and still-waiting hook/title ideas. wink

In times past, it was easy to find 'free-to-download' tracks (intended for musicians to jam with), but those days seem to be gone. Everyone now is trying to sell everything they do. I don't mind that so much ($0.99 now and again won't break the bank) - what I hate is that to even be able to listen to some of the tracks you need to accept cookies on the website, which means even more crap spam landing in my email.

Anyway, this is just a thought. Maybe a section that would include random backing tracks for folks like me. Or, if instrumentals are posted specifically for collaboration, maybe someone would jump in to propose a lyric.

I strongly recommend though that composers seeking collaboration - at the very least - provide lyricists with a leadsheet. This makes it much easier to write a lyric for a melody.

Donna


Donna,

Just to let you know, a cookie itself doesn't lift your email, it gets something far more valuable. It tracks every site you have ever been to before and after when you have a cookie. It tracks what you type, it tracks what you click, it tracks just about everything you do after it is in there but it also goes back in time by lifting your various histories. It is permission essentially to spy on you. But.. and this is big, it takes a massive tech company to put that much into their apps and cookies etc. We have cookies here and it only does a couple of things: It saves your progress on this specific site so that when you revisit a post, it goes to where you left off etc. and it can remember who you are so you only have to log in one time per year. I have zero access to any info on you of any kind. I can see globally where ALL visitors come from and where all visitor go when they leave. But I almost never look at it because I am not selling anything. But most companies ARE so you are right to be cautious. Sadly all of us have knowingly or unknowingly given so many companies carte blanche to spy on us that outside of leaving online for good, they will always know just about everything there is to know about you. These companies know what food you eat because they buy your shopping info from the grocery stores and the credit card companies. This is why they so desperately want to get rid of ALL cash so you can't hide a single activity you participate in. They have you 10 different ways.

It sucks and it is getting dangerous. These companies have far more power than our governments. That is not hyperbole. I can see the day where the US military takes over these companies.. but that is only if they aren't behind all of them in the first place. All the ones up and running well were started with government money. So the deep state has it all. The NSA The military equivalent to the C_A has it all on EVERYONE.


Brian Austin Whitney
Founder
Just Plain Folks
jpfolkspro@aol.com
Skype: Brian Austin Whitney
Facebook: www.facebook.com/justplainfolks

"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

"It's easier to be the bigger man when you actually are..."

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#1154289 - 06/18/19 10:56 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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For me, there's always music in my mind when I write a lyric. I used to have a studio set-up where I could easily work on music and lyrics simultaneously, but that's all changed now. So, it's lyrics only for me.

Andy


If at first you don't succeed, try the 'ON' switch!
#1154291 - 06/18/19 11:38 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Michael LeBlanc
what i would like to know is why isn't there an "Instrumental Forum" here so "we" lyricists can maybe write something for them.Some of the musicians may be great until it comes to putting words together.Sure you'll get some lame lyrics as we get lame music for our lyrics but something might jive from time to time.I think i've only taken one maybe two instrumentals here and wrote words for them.Not sure if they really actually liked it but it sure was fun for me to write with an awesome piece of music.So let's average it out and you musicians start putting some work out there for the lyricist.



Well I think its a great idea. Thing is "instrumentals" take alot of time and work for the musician.

Also alot of lyricists cant write to tracks, because it restricts them. But if done right this kind of thing leads to better songs for the lyricist.


In the industry today "Topliners" are in demand. A Topliner is someone who takes a finished instrumental track and creates what the singer singsólyrics and melody (and harmonies). Since music has gone digital, "producers" are now usually people who make "beats" (instrumental tracks). Topliners commonly come later, often hired like session musicians to create a topline for a fee and walk away, or share the copyright. It's an interesting development in an industry that still considers a song to be lyrics and melody.

#1154292 - 06/18/19 12:00 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Michael LeBlanc
what i would like to know is why isn't there an "Instrumental Forum" here so "we" lyricists can maybe write something for them.Some of the musicians may be great until it comes to putting words together.Sure you'll get some lame lyrics as we get lame music for our lyrics but something might jive from time to time.I think i've only taken one maybe two instrumentals here and wrote words for them.Not sure if they really actually liked it but it sure was fun for me to write with an awesome piece of music.So let's average it out and you musicians start putting some work out there for the lyricist.



Well I think its a great idea. Thing is "instrumentals" take alot of time and work for the musician.

Also alot of lyricists cant write to tracks, because it restricts them. But if done right this kind of thing leads to better songs for the lyricist.


In the industry today "Topliners" are in demand. A Topliner is someone who takes a finished instrumental track and creates what the singer singsólyrics and melody (and harmonies). Since music has gone digital, "producers" are now usually people who make "beats" (instrumental tracks). Topliners commonly come later, often hired like session musicians to create a topline for a fee and walk away, or share the copyright. It's an interesting development in an industry that still considers a song to be lyrics and melody.


Yeah now with tracks and beats being so important, writing to a track is probably more important than it used to be but alot of great writers used to work with tracks anyway like Paul Simon for example. Hed write a track and not even know what the song would be called or about.

I always wondered when writing a track without any idea of a melody, how somebody can compose a track and have it work later on. To me melody determines where the music goes, particularly with hooks and choruses. When you write a track, how do you know what you have really? Its a bit of a crap shoot but can work better since the music has already been established and you got a song and a groove.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/18/19 12:04 PM.
#1154295 - 06/18/19 01:09 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Michael LeBlanc
what i would like to know is why isn't there an "Instrumental Forum" here so "we" lyricists can maybe write something for them.Some of the musicians may be great until it comes to putting words together.Sure you'll get some lame lyrics as we get lame music for our lyrics but something might jive from time to time.I think i've only taken one maybe two instrumentals here and wrote words for them.Not sure if they really actually liked it but it sure was fun for me to write with an awesome piece of music.So let's average it out and you musicians start putting some work out there for the lyricist.



Well I think its a great idea. Thing is "instrumentals" take alot of time and work for the musician.

Also alot of lyricists cant write to tracks, because it restricts them. But if done right this kind of thing leads to better songs for the lyricist.


In the industry today "Topliners" are in demand. A Topliner is someone who takes a finished instrumental track and creates what the singer singsólyrics and melody (and harmonies). Since music has gone digital, "producers" are now usually people who make "beats" (instrumental tracks). Topliners commonly come later, often hired like session musicians to create a topline for a fee and walk away, or share the copyright. It's an interesting development in an industry that still considers a song to be lyrics and melody.


I read about how some topliners just turn up, go into a booth and sing over the track whatever comes into their head, just random stuff, until eventually they hit on something that the producer thinks is catchy or striking. That becomes the hook. The rest is just filler that nobody pays any attention to anyway.

#1154297 - 06/18/19 01:26 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Gavin Sinclair]  
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To me, that makes sense. After all, it's the end sound that makes the song. The way everything gels together. Like sketching out a painting, then filling in the colour.


If at first you don't succeed, try the 'ON' switch!
#1154303 - 06/18/19 06:16 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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well i like that Topliner stuff Mark.I'd like to be on top of that.

#1154304 - 06/18/19 06:18 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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Also,i would try to write more than one lyric for each instrumental and give the other person choices.

#1154311 - 06/19/19 01:57 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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When I first started writing songs I thought music could be shaped and molded any way you wanted. Turns out that music has strict rules and is very unforgiving and your lyrics, no matter how you sing them, have to fit into that little box where the music lives and obey the rules. I learned this sitting down with a friend who lived in Laurel Canyon in the sixties and was sitting at the table with Canned Heat when they signed their first recording contract. He looked at me and said, "The problem with your song is you've got too many words. Go ahead and sing what you've got there...hold it, wait! I just ran out of music and you're still singing". I changed the wording of the song and he said "Now that will work". My friend, well he said every time he thought his ship was going to come in, it sank.

#1154336 - 06/19/19 01:24 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
[
Yeah now with tracks and beats being so important, writing to a track is probably more important than it used to be but alot of great writers used to work with tracks anyway like Paul Simon for example. Hed write a track and not even know what the song would be called or about.

I always wondered when writing a track without any idea of a melody, how somebody can compose a track and have it work later on. To me melody determines where the music goes, particularly with hooks and choruses. When you write a track, how do you know what you have really? Its a bit of a crap shoot but can work better since the music has already been established and you got a song and a groove.


I do it sometimes. David Bowie did it oftenóhis sessions usually involved getting musicians together to create music, and it was only after the full musical track was finished that he would go off and topline it, then come back some other day, sometimes months later to record vocals.

Melody is an element of a song to me, usually but not always the dominant one. Coming from a rock background, I find chord structure probably leads my thinking even more than melody.

#1154340 - 06/19/19 02:47 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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Regarding Sheila Davis, Pat Pattison etc...I've said it before.
If those people knew how to write great songs, they would. They know how to write books about great songs.

I've also said this before, show me an example of someone's writing before having read Pattison's book, then an example of their writing a year later. There won't be much
of a difference. I recall a bitter exchange with a woman over this issue many years ago. She still can't write.

And neither can you, FD!

Just thought I'd throw that in there.

My words are controversial! They imply not everyone has talent. Let the Senate hearings begin!

Last edited by couchgrouch; 06/19/19 02:47 PM.
#1154366 - 06/20/19 10:18 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
Regarding Sheila Davis, Pat Pattison etc...I've said it before.
If those people knew how to write great songs, they would. They know how to write books about great songs.

I've also said this before, show me an example of someone's writing before having read Pattison's book, then an example of their writing a year later. There won't be much
of a difference. I recall a bitter exchange with a woman over this issue many years ago. She still can't write.

And neither can you, FD!

Just thought I'd throw that in there.

My words are controversial! They imply not everyone has talent. Let the Senate hearings begin!


Upset are we that you are incapable of writing to a track? Still chasing me around JPF?

I dont think any intelligent human believes that Sheila Davis can make them a great songwriter, or reading her book can. No more than a guitar teacher can make his student Eddie Van Halen, no more than a hitting coach can make somebody Mickey Mantle.

Of course talent matters..... Sheila Davis is just an educator, I bet if you asked her, she wouldn't even consider herself a great songwriter. She taught at UCLA i believe, and just as a spelling teacher cant make somebody win a national spelling bee, a songwriting teacher cant make them a hit songwriter.

It's just a way of helping bring out the talent somebody might have. Sometimes a person needs focus or guidance, maybe they have great capability and dont know how to tap into it. Whats the big frickon deal about a damn book?

And you say people cant write, including myself, to some of the greats of our era, so often, that it means absolutely nothing to anyone. You're like the Delouie who cried wolf, nobody cares who you think you can write.

You insist that music is a competition and want it known that you are the leading contender.

If u want to make it a competition, id be happy to kick your arse in a challenge of writing to a track. Remember the goal is the song, not your lyric on paper.

it'l never happen, you are not able. Keep chirpin

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/20/19 10:29 AM.
#1154368 - 06/20/19 10:23 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
[
Yeah now with tracks and beats being so important, writing to a track is probably more important than it used to be but alot of great writers used to work with tracks anyway like Paul Simon for example. Hed write a track and not even know what the song would be called or about.

I always wondered when writing a track without any idea of a melody, how somebody can compose a track and have it work later on. To me melody determines where the music goes, particularly with hooks and choruses. When you write a track, how do you know what you have really? Its a bit of a crap shoot but can work better since the music has already been established and you got a song and a groove.


I do it sometimes. David Bowie did it oftenóhis sessions usually involved getting musicians together to create music, and it was only after the full musical track was finished that he would go off and topline it, then come back some other day, sometimes months later to record vocals.

Melody is an element of a song to me, usually but not always the dominant one. Coming from a rock background, I find chord structure probably leads my thinking even more than melody.



Here is a song I know for a fact was written as a track first. One of The Boss' few collabs at all, let alone writes from a track. But if you listen you can see or hear the track came first. Interestingly, no chorus it's AABA
, I find alot of track first pieces dont have choruses, or at least big choruses. Roy Bittan came up with the track first.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPw8wNrINJ0

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/20/19 10:27 AM.
#1154455 - 06/22/19 09:11 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
Originally Posted by Fdemetrio
Originally Posted by Michael LeBlanc
what i would like to know is why isn't there an "Instrumental Forum" here so "we" lyricists can maybe write something for them.Some of the musicians may be great until it comes to putting words together.Sure you'll get some lame lyrics as we get lame music for our lyrics but something might jive from time to time.I think i've only taken one maybe two instrumentals here and wrote words for them.Not sure if they really actually liked it but it sure was fun for me to write with an awesome piece of music.So let's average it out and you musicians start putting some work out there for the lyricist.



Well I think its a great idea. Thing is "instrumentals" take alot of time and work for the musician.

Also alot of lyricists cant write to tracks, because it restricts them. But if done right this kind of thing leads to better songs for the lyricist.


In the industry today "Topliners" are in demand. A Topliner is someone who takes a finished instrumental track and creates what the singer singsólyrics and melody (and harmonies). Since music has gone digital, "producers" are now usually people who make "beats" (instrumental tracks). Topliners commonly come later, often hired like session musicians to create a topline for a fee and walk away, or share the copyright. It's an interesting development in an industry that still considers a song to be lyrics and melody.


Yes, the entire industry now belongs to the Producers. They have their hands in all aspects far beyond what they used to do. It started in Rap and R&B but has devolved across all platforms/genres/styles. If it commercial, it is all about producers. Sometimes the producers are the artists themselves, but the power players are all "producers" because they have their hands in all the income streams. Often the producers have stables of artists which they interchange and this is why we often see 10 names on a songwriting credit. That is lifelong income streams for those people. They trade those credits to gain more power. It is very smart business but it sucks for actual writers and especially for artist/writers who usually get stuck sharing the wealth with a record number of people. Production credits share in the writing royalties, the arrangement royalties and the recorded music royalties and in most cases the merchandising royalties as well as TV/Radio/Media royalties. 360 deals look great on paper to artists, but all you do is become the subservient party to all the others stacking up on top of your talent. It is selling your soul to the devil made flesh and blood. Writing lyrics to a finished track is VERY common, by far the most common, way to make music. If the track doesn't grab the listener, the lyrics mean nothing. If the track DOES grab the listener, the lyrics might get noticed and if they are clever or meaningful, they might enhance the love of a song, but rarely do songs have staying power beyond their initial run anymore. Country music has become as boring as emo with simplistic beats stolen from R&B ballads backing nearly everything today. It's a drone, but it sells well. That is all that matters (or has ever mattered). People who think technology is always a good thing and we should always "improve" the process, streamline it, make it more efficient and that always means better are not people who value art, aesthetic or human connection. They simply approach things with the efficiency model of an automated widget factory. Cold, sterile, efficient. That used to be business, now it is art as well.


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#1154462 - 06/23/19 02:07 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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Ted Martin Offline
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From a Rolling Stone interview with Billy Joel: "I hear a melody and a rhythm first. One of the last things that I actually get are the words."

#1154465 - 06/23/19 09:19 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: BIG JIM MERRILEES]  
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Spot on JIM i agree with every linel


One of the most important principles of songwriting is to remember that a good song is a partnership of many different components, all working together to produce a satisfying musical experience.

In that respect, song components are either enhancing or compromising their combined effects.
#1154466 - 06/23/19 09:27 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Fdemetrio]  
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I dont think any intelligent human believes that Sheila Davis can make them a great songwriter, or reading her book can. No more than a guitar teacher can make his student Eddie Van Halen, no more than a hitting coach can make somebody Mickey Mantle.

Of course talent matters..... Sheila Davis is just an educator, I bet if you asked her, she wouldn't even consider herself a great songwriter. She taught at UCLA i believe, and just as a spelling teacher cant make somebody win a national spelling bee, a songwriting teacher cant make them a hit songwriter.

It's just a way of helping bring out the talent somebody might have. Sometimes a person needs focus or guidance, maybe they have great capability and dont know how to tap into it. Whats the big frickon deal about a damn book?
________________________________________________________________________
This reply by f demetrio ways it all up for me he is absolutely right--- we can learn from the best books, and anyone who thinks not , is so wrapped up in their own world its beyond belief; What Sheila does is explain the many formats of writing and she also breaks down why certain songs work - If you cant sing your words , and understand where the melody needs to rise of fall ; no collaborator worth his or her sort would even attempt to put the best music they can to it , collaboration should take part at the birth of any song . There are not many top lyric writers who are not prepared to re write; That's why they are successful


Last edited by Cheyenne; 06/23/19 09:43 AM.

One of the most important principles of songwriting is to remember that a good song is a partnership of many different components, all working together to produce a satisfying musical experience.

In that respect, song components are either enhancing or compromising their combined effects.
#1154467 - 06/23/19 11:17 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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Cheyenne, I agree with everything you just said. Those books are no big deal.

I would go one step further...if you don't have talent, those books can't help you. If you do, you don't need them.

I also think there can be a difference between a hit song and a great one. Taylor Swift's new one is an insipid piece of woke robopop. I've heard better songs on Josie and the Pussycats.

#1154488 - 06/23/19 08:30 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
Cheyenne, I agree with everything you just said. Those books are no big deal.

I would go one step further...if you don't have talent, those books can't help you. If you do, you don't need them.

I also think there can be a difference between a hit song and a great one. Taylor Swift's new one is an insipid piece of woke robopop. I've heard better songs on Josie and the Pussycats.


Though books like that may mostly be for hobbyists to dabble in to improve their work, I do actually know of pro's who used that book and others and it made impacts on them. One of them has written country hits and won a Tony award as well. So they are not invaluable. It is just like my exercise equipment/diet cook book example on another post. They WORK if you actually use them as directed, but very very few do.

Brian


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"Don't sit around and wait for success to come to you... it doesn't know the way." -Brian Austin Whitney

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#1154490 - 06/23/19 09:31 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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I'd be curious to know what he/she learned, how it changed their writing and what they've written. Till then, I remain skeptical. Diets and exercise yield tangible results. Art doesn't.

There must be pro endorsements on the book jackets. Check em out. If you research their songs and go, whoa...that guy's songs have great melodies and the lyrics have memorable titles, imagery, rhymes and storytelling, then buy the book.

#1154509 - 06/24/19 03:51 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: couchgrouch]  
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Fdemetrio Offline
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Originally Posted by couchgrouch
I'd be curious to know what he/she learned, how it changed their writing and what they've written. Till then, I remain skeptical. Diets and exercise yield tangible results. Art doesn't.

There must be pro endorsements on the book jackets. Check em out. If you research their songs and go, whoa...that guy's songs have great melodies and the lyrics have memorable titles, imagery, rhymes and storytelling, then buy the book.


But no matter how good you might think you are, many might not think you are any good. THAT'S art. Nobody knows what good or bad is. So judging whether or not a book can help an artist, is as subjective as the art they make.

I do know that Sheila Davis is well respected by "songwriters" maybe not artists, but people who want to learn the craft. Everybody learns from something. No Beatles, id say most rock or pop songwriters have no career.

Much like school, there is theory and then theres real life. I think she focuses on Theory. If you can learn what makes a great song, maybe you can write one yourself. How do you hit a target if you dont know what the target is? Nobody is born a great songwriter. Most people learn from the music they listen to. All shes doing is organizing it for somebody.

As for endorsements. It wouldnt be so obvious....THIS BOOK MADE ME A GREAT WRITER. But it may just be one extra piece in somebodys artistry.

Does a songwriter need this book? No, can it help with their knowledge of songwriting. Yes.

"...to young lyricists who come to me for advice: Buy THE CRAFT OF LYRIC WRITING. It's all there." -- Sheldon Harnick, Pulitzer Prize Lyricist, FIDDLER ON THE ROOF




Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/24/19 04:26 PM.
#1154512 - 06/24/19 07:02 PM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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I thought this was a good article. He mentioned how the Beatles went from Love Love me Do, to Strawberry Fields. I always said that if something improves, something caused it to improve, usually by keep doing it. Talent or lack of can slow you down or speed you up.

https://joebennett.net/2013/05/31/you-cant-teach-songwriting-from-total-guitar-magazine/

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/24/19 07:02 PM.
#1154670 - 06/28/19 11:16 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Kevin Emmrich]  
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Some people believe so strongly in the concept of natural talent that they cannot fully accept the concept of coaching, or that they could ever learn from what they perceive as a lesser talent. It appears to them to diminish the quality of their own talent, so they view it through a competitive lens. But no one makes art without training. No one plays a guitar without slogging through an old Mel Bay book or teaching yourself how to make that triangle shape with your fingers, and no one writes lyrics without studying other writers and piggybacking on their shoulders. I was a bad bowler who learned how to coach and taught several high schoolers how to kick my ass. I don;t think you don't have to be accomplished to understand the process...and you don't have to be a lesser writer to learn from another one.

#1154672 - 06/28/19 11:29 AM Re: Why are there so many lyric-only folks? [Re: Mark Kaufman]  
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Fdemetrio Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman
Some people believe so strongly in the concept of natural talent that they cannot fully accept the concept of coaching, or that they could ever learn from what they perceive as a lesser talent. It appears to them to diminish the quality of their own talent, so they view it through a competitive lens. But no one makes art without training. No one plays a guitar without slogging through an old Mel Bay book or teaching yourself how to make that triangle shape with your fingers, and no one writes lyrics without studying other writers and piggybacking on their shoulders. I was a bad bowler who learned how to coach and taught several high schoolers how to kick my ass. I don;t think you don't have to be accomplished to understand the process...and you don't have to be a lesser writer to learn from another one.


Nailed it!

Particularly when said people's work demonstrates a thorough knowledge of craft, ie. meter, poetic device, hooks and even double hooks, a knowledge of story boarding and twists and irony, and imagery and rhyme and structure, and payoffs. And shows years of working on the mechanics.

Funny how some people never learned anything about songwriting, and nobody who teaches knows anything.

Last edited by Fdemetrio; 06/28/19 11:54 AM.
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